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Author Topic:   Compression from stock-type rebuild on '65 289?
deadhead
Gearhead

Posts: 153
From:
Registered: Sep 2002

posted 09-07-2002 09:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for deadhead   Click Here to Email deadhead     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What is the combustion chamber volume of '65 289-2V Heads? I'm thinking of using Sterling hypereutectic pistons in my 289's rebuild. I'm using the stock block and heads. For .030 over, Summit's website lists this:

Compression ration 7.79:1 (69cc heads), 8.28:1 (63cc heads), 8.52:1 (60.4cc heads), 8.73:1 (58.2cc heads), 9.12:1 (54.5cc heads)

My standard catalog of American cars indicates the stock compression ratio was 9.3 for the C-Code engine. I'd like to keep it around there, but it doesn't appear I can with these pistons. I'm building a mild street engine and see no need to go to forged pistons.

Thanks,

deadhead


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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 3529
From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 09-07-2002 03:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I believe the C-code had dished pistons... reducing the c/r that the A-code 4bbl motor had. The heads for both motors are identical, combustion chambers are in the 48cc range (yes, tight little suckers ) for C5AE castings that is. Later (smog) heads got to having cavernous chambers bringing the c/r's WAY down. If you do in fact have C5AE castings, flat top pistons will give you at least 9.3:1, probably a bit more . Cast pistons are fine for tame street motors

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mstngjoe
Journeyman

Posts: 64
From: Oregon
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 09-08-2002 10:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mstngjoe   Click Here to Email mstngjoe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here is a page from Bob Mannel's excellent book. Should be of some help.

------------------
My Mustang
My engine

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ice'68
Gearhead

Posts: 127
From: Fresno, CA
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 09-08-2002 03:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ice'68   Click Here to Email ice'68     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Any chance of posting a chart like that for a 351W, Joe?

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mstngjoe
Journeyman

Posts: 64
From: Oregon
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 09-08-2002 05:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mstngjoe   Click Here to Email mstngjoe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ice,
Bob's book only covers up to a 1969 302. But here is another chart. Sorry about the size. You can try adjusting your resolution or resize it yourself.

I'm going to have to try and tweak it when I get home. I'm at work right now.

------------------
My Mustang
My engine

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 33988
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 09-08-2002 06:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by deadhead:
I'm building a mild street engine and see no need to go to forged pistons.

Keep in mind the slightest bit of detonation makes hypereutectic pistons break like glass.

I wouldn't consider anything but forged, until I was just rebuilding a stock engine, then I'd use stock cast pistons.

------------------
All Fords since 1977!

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deadhead
Gearhead

Posts: 153
From:
Registered: Sep 2002

posted 09-08-2002 08:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for deadhead   Click Here to Email deadhead     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've never heard that about hypereutectic pistons. Ever. Are there any articles I could read proving your claim?

deadhead

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 33988
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 09-08-2002 08:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Read the Racing forum here. It's been a common problem.

https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/002522.html

https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/003020.html

https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/001881.html

https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/003052.html

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All Fords since 1977!

[This message has been edited by SteveLaRiviere (edited 09-08-2002).]

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deadhead
Gearhead

Posts: 153
From:
Registered: Sep 2002

posted 09-08-2002 09:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for deadhead   Click Here to Email deadhead     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Steve,

Interesting reading. Thanks.

I had not been checking these racing forums. I'm strictly a 43-year-old with a heavy foot and a pretty little Mustang. Never been racing. I'm rebuilding the 289 'cuase she's treated me so well. There's a little scoring on the cylinder walls, so an overbore will require new pistons. I can't afford KB hypereutectics--and I'm trying to keep costs down. Should I just purchase a master rebuild kit from PAW with generic cast pistons? The TRW forged pistons add $160 bucks to the cost.

deadhead

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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 3529
From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 09-08-2002 10:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've not personally had any dealings with PAW, but I've heard just too many awful things about their sales/tech support. I do business with Moneymaker Racing and Summit almost exclusively. MMR has a 'personal' service that NO one else can come even close to, Summit has HUGE purchasing power and can pass the good pricing along to customers. I've also never run hyper pistons, but like PAW itself I've heard nothing but wake-you-up-in-the-middle-of-the-night nightmare horror stories about them. I'd personally wait a while, rat-hole a few more bucks and upgrade to forged

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deadhead
Gearhead

Posts: 153
From:
Registered: Sep 2002

posted 09-08-2002 10:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for deadhead   Click Here to Email deadhead     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
mstngjoe,

Can you also post the notes from the Cylinder Head Types table you posted?

Thanks,

deadhead

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 33988
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 09-09-2002 06:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My experience with PAW is they are ok, ONLY IF you carefully inspect and mike every part. The parts come {or at least they used to, I haven't ordered from them in a while} in plain white boxes and after getting a bunch of wacky sized bearings, cams, and pistons I got the impression that these are factory seconds.

When you build an engine, you should always use the best parts you can afford on the internal pieces. If you have to use painted valve covers and used intakes and carb, so be it, but make your basic foundation the strongest possible. You'll thank yourself a 1000 times later.

------------------
All Fords since 1977!

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 33988
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 09-09-2002 06:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
By the way, guys, we really shouldn't be posting Bob Mannel's stuff online. It's all copyrighted, and he's a heck of a nice guy besides.

If you guys are into early small block Fords, you should get his book. It's the best I've ever seen. {It's HUGE and very detailed!}

Here's his page:
http://www.fordsmallblock.com/

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All Fords since 1977!

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deadhead
Gearhead

Posts: 153
From:
Registered: Sep 2002

posted 09-09-2002 10:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for deadhead   Click Here to Email deadhead     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Steve,

Although I agree with you 100%, the law of diminishing returns still applies, and more importantly, the best is not necessarily the most expensive.

I view these forums as a way for those who have ventured before us to impart knowledge upon the masses. For example, I was looking for advice on headers. Many of the responses told me to purchase Hookem Comp Gold or JBA Platinum Bend tubes, and make sure they were jazzercized or jet-coated or something. It's easy to recommend things when you've got $1200 to spend just on heads. I've got that much for the whole motor.

Look at it this way. I'm a Craftsman tool guy. They're not necessarily the best, but why should I spend more if Craftsman has a lifetime warranty? Guys with my budget constraints need the 80% solution--80% of the fun for 20% of the cost. I'm building a daily driver, not a race car.

Talk to me, baby. Give me the answers. All I want to know is how to build a reliable $1200 289 that performs better than a stock 289-4V. What should I do, and what shouldn't I do, and be specific.

Thanks,

deadhead

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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 3529
From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 09-09-2002 11:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by deadhead:
...Hookem Comp Gold or JBA Platinum Bend tubes, and make sure they were jazzercized or jet-coated or something.

LOL! That is funny

$1200 is the budget, hua? You could have a basic valve job done on your heads, re-ring the pistons, have the crank micro-polished (if necessary), install new rod and main bearings and new oil pump, a snappy little cam & timing set with a decent 4bbl manifold and a GOOD carb, a pair of headers with dual exhaust, a decent ignition upgrade, you may even splurge and install shorter rear gears for more go-power and you'll have a grin from ear to ear

All this assuming you can do ALL the tear down/assembly yourself. Borrow a hoist, have buddies help removing and installing the motor, weld the exhaust up yourself, etc.

For a little more thump , get this:

https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/005310.html

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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 3529
From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 09-09-2002 11:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
One more thing, I use Craftsman too

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mstngjoe
Journeyman

Posts: 64
From: Oregon
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 09-09-2002 11:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mstngjoe   Click Here to Email mstngjoe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Steve,
I contacted Bob some time ago, and asked his permission to scan and post pages from his book from time to time.

He was gracious enough to grant permission for me to do so.

I had the same concerns you do and that is why I took the time to contact him.

He's a great guy and has an outstanding book that should be in everyones library.

He even signed mine.

Subj: About your book
Date: 4/27/2002 9:00:48 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: [email protected] (Robert P. Mannel)
Sender: [email protected] (Robert P. Mannel)
To: [email protected] (INTERNET:[email protected])


You have my permission to continue using the book to help others.

Regards, Bob Mannel
------------------
My Mustang
My engine

[This message has been edited by mstngjoe (edited 09-09-2002).]

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mstngjoe
Journeyman

Posts: 64
From: Oregon
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 09-10-2002 12:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mstngjoe   Click Here to Email mstngjoe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Deadhead:
You may have to adjust your screen resolution or tweak the size in some other way. Best I could do right now.

------------------
My Mustang
My engine

[This message has been edited by mstngjoe (edited 09-10-2002).]

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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 3529
From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 09-10-2002 08:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dumb question, does your motor really need a complete overhaul? If its in the car and still running, you could pull the heads off and have a look. Maybe you could just have your heads done up nice, a good intake and exhaust system and you're motorin' for about six bills

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 33988
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 09-10-2002 07:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mstngjoe:
Steve,
I contacted Bob some time ago, and asked his permission to scan and post pages from his book from time to time.

He was gracious enough to grant permission for me to do so.

I had the same concerns you do and that is why I took the time to contact him.


Very cool! Thanks!

He really is a great guy, isn't he?

------------------
All Fords since 1977!

'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 33988
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 09-10-2002 08:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by deadhead:
Steve,

Although I agree with you 100%, the law of diminishing returns still applies, and more importantly, the best is not necessarily the most expensive.

I view these forums as a way for those who have ventured before us to impart knowledge upon the masses. For example, I was looking for advice on headers. Many of the responses told me to purchase Hookem Comp Gold or JBA Platinum Bend tubes, and make sure they were jazzercized or jet-coated or something. It's easy to recommend things when you've got $1200 to spend just on heads. I've got that much for the whole motor.

Look at it this way. I'm a Craftsman tool guy. They're not necessarily the best, but why should I spend more if Craftsman has a lifetime warranty? Guys with my budget constraints need the 80% solution--80% of the fun for 20% of the cost. I'm building a daily driver, not a race car.

Talk to me, baby. Give me the answers. All I want to know is how to build a reliable $1200 289 that performs better than a stock 289-4V. What should I do, and what shouldn't I do, and be specific.

Thanks,

deadhead


I totally understand your point of view. But in my experience, the most expensive way to build an engine is to use substandard part. Who cares if you saved $350 if it only lasts you 450 miles? {I've seen that more times than you'd imagine.}

The reason people recommended Hooker headers, for instance is that it's cheaper to buy $300 headers once than to buy $100 headers five times. That's what experience teaches you, and that's why this board is so good. Nobody here would would tell you to buy $300 headers if $100 headers were just as good. {Most of us old timers have thrown away their share of $100 headers in their time. The first pair of headers I installed were in 1979!}

What I was saying was to build the best engine you can afford, I didn't say to spend the maximum amount of money possible.

You said your bores are scored and you'll need to go oversize. Instead of the hypereutectic pistons, use good quality cast pistons. Summit has real good prices on overhaul kits, and I doubt you can beat the prices.

------------------
All Fords since 1977!

'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150

[This message has been edited by SteveLaRiviere (edited 09-10-2002).]

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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 3529
From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 09-10-2002 09:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by V8 Thumper:
duah... blah blah blah...

If I'd read your all your posts, then I'd have known you've already determined a need to bore the block. My apologies for not reading it thoroughly.

I agree with Steve 100% in that you really do get what you pay for. Not that a low-buck rebuild can't be more fun than a barrel of monkeys, but there is an undeniable peace of mind in knowing that it'll take more abuse that you'll ever give it (and even that's precarious ). I too have thrown out $100 headers and cursed myself for buying them in the first place, and then come the "I told you so's" Goes beyond quality, those darn things dont just jump into the motor compartment on their own!


Just like Steve said, do it as good as you possibly can. It took me two full years to accumulate the parts to finish my motor, but I must say... well worth the wait

[This message has been edited by V8 Thumper (edited 09-10-2002).]

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deadhead
Gearhead

Posts: 153
From:
Registered: Sep 2002

posted 09-10-2002 09:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for deadhead   Click Here to Email deadhead     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Steve,

I didn't mean to sound as harsh as it sounds now that I've read it again. Apologies. Too many brewskies.

I was just using headers as an example. I keep thinking about buying home audio equipment. You can spend every dime you have, but there is some very good, inexpensive (not cheap) equipment out there. The same must be true of the high-performance automotive industry.

For example, if the concensus was I should buy XXXX-YY part number gasket set, I could shop around for the best price. Same with the bearings and rings. If you're gonna buy cast, get this manufacturer's pistons...forged go with these, etc., etc.

This engine has been around for almost 40 years, do we not yet know what works, or has advertising hype caused us to lose our way?

deadhead

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mstngjoe
Journeyman

Posts: 64
From: Oregon
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 09-10-2002 10:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mstngjoe   Click Here to Email mstngjoe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Deadhead:

I don't know what your time frame for this project is, but I may have some parts for sale in the next 60-90 days. If a friend doesn't buy my whole engine, I'll be parting it out. It's a 302 .030 over with a stock bottom end and TRW forged pistons.

This is a very solid motor. The only reason I'm pulling it is because I got bit by the stroker bug.

If you think you might be interested let me know.

------------------
My Mustang
My engine

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Calcat
Journeyman

Posts: 75
From: Los Angeles, CA
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 09-11-2002 02:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Calcat   Click Here to Email Calcat     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Getting back closer to the original thread, for his level of build, there is absolutely nothing wrong with hypers. The myth about hypers are usually perpetuated by people who exceed the intended use of them and the threads Steve linked are perfect examples of what I am talking about. Hypers are not meant to take high comp race level builds, never were. They are, in fact, tougher than cast but if you are running a high comp engine and introducing detonation, they are not designed for that. I just hate to see a good piston get a bad rap because the builder makes bad selections.

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deadhead
Gearhead

Posts: 153
From:
Registered: Sep 2002

posted 09-11-2002 08:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for deadhead   Click Here to Email deadhead     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Calcat,

I agree with your interpretations of the hypereutectic piston threads. It seems there are several people out there who didn't set their motors up with the correct ring gap. Apparently, a lot or the dirt track racers use them around here with no problems. They don't use NOS.

As with any public forum, most of the posters like to voice their negative experiences. Few people run to the computer to let everyone know things are normal and going as planned.

mstngjoe, my block and heads have already made it to the machine shop. Damn.

By the way, I purchased an Autolite 4100 480cfm model. Things are looking up.

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