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Author Topic:   Forged vs. Hypereutectic
V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 4681
From: Phoenix, Arizona
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 01-10-2002 08:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Ok, let's hear it...

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ProStreet64Falcon
unregistered
posted 01-10-2002 11:50 AM           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
IMO, Hyper is as good as Forged. Unless you want to run nitrous then forged is the way to go. I am running Hypers in my Cuda at 11.5:1 and have had no problems. They preform just as well as the forged I had before except they seemed to fit tighter when I installed them. I really see no difference except in price.

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64 Pro-Street Falcon
351 Cleveland 4V
8.21 1/8
70 Plymouth Cuda
440 Magnum
6.72 1/8

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-10-2002 11:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have commented on this subject a hundred times. Under 7k RPM and no N2o, Hyper pistons are fine. Most dirt track claimer engines require them and they go hundreds of hard laps with great service.

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Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
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futurattraction
Gearhead

Posts: 108
From: Iowa City, IA
Registered: Oct 2001

posted 01-10-2002 01:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for futurattraction   Click Here to Email futurattraction     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What about hypers WITH nitrous? I've read on another Ford board that they will work. If so, what would be the safest max shot? SP

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Dr. Who
Gearhead

Posts: 164
From: Redwood City, Ca.
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 01-10-2002 01:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dr. Who   Click Here to Email Dr. Who     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm helping a buddy put a budget motor together now and I'm telling him the same thing Alex just said, if it were gonna see high RPM or add some "help" they would be a poor choice but for a stout street motor with occaisonal strip use they'll be just fine.

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Moe! Larry! Cheese! Curly Howard

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 45869
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 01-10-2002 02:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've been sold on forged pistons ever since I dropped a valve and was able to reuse the piston. Try that with a hypereutectic piston.

The downside to forged pistons are the weight, but I think the strength makes up for it.

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'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-10-2002 03:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
With ANY power adder such as N2o, turbos, or blowers I would always lean toward forged pistons. Especially on a fresh engine project.

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Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
US Class Nationals link

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 6590
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 01-10-2002 05:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A good example of what a forged piston will take as far as abuse that a hyper wont, is when I sheared the pin in my roller cam. Every forged piston had a gouge at least 1/16" of an inch, and probably closer to an 1/8" in the top of them from the exhaust valves. I ran them the rest of the season like that without any problems. A hyper would have come apart.

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cpmaverick
Gearhead

Posts: 1666
From: Santa Clarita, CA
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 01-10-2002 07:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cpmaverick   Click Here to Email cpmaverick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SteveLaRiviere:
I've been sold on forged pistons ever since I dropped a valve and was able to reuse the piston. Try that with a hypereutectic piston.

Ditto

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Rustang
Gearhead

Posts: 821
From: Clarion PA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 01-10-2002 07:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rustang   Click Here to Email Rustang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There's a really good write up on hypereutectic versus forged in the Feb. 2002 Car Craft, page 96 (Ask Marlin). It has a chart from Federal Mogul showing what type of piston to use different applications, and alot of good info. One thing Marlin says is that hyper's have comparable strength to forged (I was suprised) but only when compared at room temperature. The catch is the hyper's run alot hotter. Also, and more important, the hyper's are far more brittle. If the piston fails it is prone to breaking apart, where-as the forging is far more ductile and will survive detonation alot better.

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'68 mustang 351 clevor- [email protected]
'67 Stang, 351W [email protected]
'69 351C [email protected]
'78 Pickup [email protected]
'79 Pickup 460 ET=??
http://www.rustang-racing.cityslide.com/contents/contents.cfm/712231

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Bloose
Gearhead

Posts: 796
From: Milwaukee, WI
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 01-10-2002 08:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bloose   Click Here to Email Bloose     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Very interesting Rustang. I hope my KB I just bought live a long happy life in my 289.

B-loose

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ccode67
Gearhead

Posts: 2995
From: douglasville,ga,usa
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 01-11-2002 07:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ccode67   Click Here to Email ccode67     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My 351w build is ongoing, I bought TRW forged, I don't plan to use nitrous but I may get a wild hair later, forged were about $100 more than hyper, I figured it was better to start that way than to go back and re do it.

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Stuart MCA #48902
M&M #1091
67 stang 5 speed
91 f-150 xlt
98 explorer xlt sohc v-6

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74Mav
Journeyman

Posts: 17
From: Mason, Ohio
Registered: Nov 2001

posted 01-11-2002 07:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 74Mav     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I rebuilt my 302 with hypers last year. In September a carb baseplate screw vibrated out and was sucked into the number 2 cylinder. The piston in was shattered in about 12 pieces and the con-rod had a noticable twist to it. Don't know if that would have happened with forged (my guess is it would have) or not, but, the screw was pretty damn flat from the beating the hyper piston gave it before it shattered...

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 2494
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 01-11-2002 09:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Geez Mav,
You only got a couple of months running before that happened...?!

Does that kinda thing (a screw come loose from the carb)occur very often?
Was the carb recently rebuilt or very tired?
Should a fella pull his carb now & then to check the screws and such?

That just doesn't sound like the kinda thing I'd like to experience.......

Ryan

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 45869
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 01-11-2002 09:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You have to watch the two center screws. On an one hole intake, if they back out, it's a straight shot in. The rest are stopped by the mounting flange.

------------------

'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 45869
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 01-11-2002 09:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 74Mav:
The piston in was shattered in about 12 pieces and the con-rod had a noticable twist to it. Don't know if that would have happened with forged (my guess is it would have) or not, but, the screw was pretty damn flat from the beating the hyper piston gave it before it shattered...

The forged piston wouldn't have shattered. As a matter of fact, I was shown a forged piston with a nut embedded in it that came out of a running engine.

------------------

'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC

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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 4681
From: Phoenix, Arizona
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 01-11-2002 09:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
---------------------------------------------
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ryan Wilke:

Should a fella pull his carb now & then to check the screws and such?

That just doesn't sound like the kinda thing I'd like to experience.......
---------------------------------------------


I like to use BLUE loctite on fasteners that have even a chance of goin' for a ride


It's worth the peace of mind, to me at least

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Dr. Who
Gearhead

Posts: 164
From: Redwood City, Ca.
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 01-11-2002 02:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dr. Who   Click Here to Email Dr. Who     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mr Gasket (and others) make a 4 hole (thin)plate that goes under the carb and will prevent screws from falling into the engine if they should come loose. On very high horsepower engines even Loctite will fail on occaison.

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74Mav
Journeyman

Posts: 17
From: Mason, Ohio
Registered: Nov 2001

posted 01-14-2002 08:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 74Mav     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yeah, got it running and back on the road in March of last year, after a year and a half off the road. The fact that it happened didn't hurt as much as the fact that I had just put $2500 in the rebuild, then have it trashed like that... I was a little ticked.

Yes, the carb had just been rebuilt, by me. I KNOW I tightened all nine screws down, but, one on the side came loose and went for a ride. Being a dual plane intake, I didn't think I would have a problem with that, but, on the Performer RPM I have, there is enough room for one to back out...and it did...

Dr. Who, thanx for the info on that plate, you sure bet I'll have one on the next engine, which is being worked on now....

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Greg Pettit
Gearhead

Posts: 126
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Nov 2001

posted 01-15-2002 10:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Greg Pettit   Click Here to Email Greg Pettit     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You guys are forgetting something about sucking parts down the engine. SOMETHING will break when that happens.

If you've got a cast piston, the piston will break.

A Hyper piston, the piston will break and some valves will get smashed.

A Forged piston, and the piston will be damaged, but the head and cylinder will die.

Seen 2 out of these 3 with dropped valves on my Cleveland.

Got good valves now!

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Just Strokin
Gearhead

Posts: 754
From: Tuscaloosa, Alabama
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 01-15-2002 10:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Just Strokin   Click Here to Email Just Strokin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I thought that some years back, Holley left the middle screw out of their carbs for this reason and only used 8 screws.

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 45869
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 01-15-2002 10:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Greg Pettit:
You guys are forgetting something about sucking parts down the engine. SOMETHING will break when that happens.

If you've got a cast piston, the piston will break.

A Hyper piston, the piston will break and some valves will get smashed.

A Forged piston, and the piston will be damaged, but the head and cylinder will die.

Seen 2 out of these 3 with dropped valves on my Cleveland.

Got good valves now!


On one of my adventures, the valve head came off, the forged piston chewed it and shoved it into the valve pocket. I changed the head, and the piston had some gouges, but worked fine for another 40-50k miles.

I use good valves now, too!

------------------

'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC

"Speed costs money. How fast do you want to spend?"

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 45869
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 01-15-2002 10:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Just Strokin:
I thought that some years back, Holley left the middle screw out of their carbs for this reason and only used 8 screws.

Yes, there's middle screw, but the middle screw on each side can fall in with the right manifold. That's a good reason to use a 4 hole spacer right there.

------------------

'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC

"Speed costs money. How fast do you want to spend?"

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 2494
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 01-15-2002 10:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SteveLaRiviere:
I use good valves now, too!

Steve, What brand are you calling "good valves"?

Were the valves that failed OEM or some other brand - were they old & tired or just POS valves?

Ryan

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 45869
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 01-15-2002 11:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The valve that failed for me was a OEM. I'm using Milodon Mega-Flows now.

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'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC

"Speed costs money. How fast do you want to spend?"

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-15-2002 02:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Milodon is good, Manley or Ferra is better, and Victory is best!

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Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
US Class Nationals link

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rd400d
Journeyman

Posts: 7
From:
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 01-20-2002 11:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for rd400d     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm not saying the hyps are as strong but i dropped a valve at almost 4 grand and it barely broke the piston. The valve was imbedded into it and put a tiny hole in it. My luck with them have been good. KB said you can shoot'em with nitrous super or turbo. I dunno never tried nor do i think i will.

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Stewart
Gearhead

Posts: 10167
From: Monterey, CA Mustangsandmore Member #437
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 02-07-2002 08:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Stewart   Click Here to Email Stewart     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
TTT, for '69Stang.

Stewart

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