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Author
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Topic: Hypers in a NA engine...
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I65Stang
Gearhead Posts: 6575
From: Folsom, CA
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 06-29-2002 02:59 PM
   
Well I picked up the August MM&FF yesterday which has a bunch of different engine combos listed. The 392 they were using was the one from Ford with the hypers in it. Using the Ford shortblock, milled AFR 185s (54 cc, 10.3:1 compression), Vic Jr intake, Demon 850, and a Comp Cam XE282HR they made 536 hp @ 6K and 507 ft-lbs @ 5100! Now my question is, with a normally aspirated engine when do the hypers truely become a really bad idea? I am sure that engine had conservative timing to make sure no detonation happened but 536 hp is enough for me  . With a more stout cam I am sure there is even more power left in it. Just wondering .------------------
Tim M&M Member #35
1965 Mustang coupe, 200 I6, Holley 2300, Clifford header, true duals w/ 26" Smithys
1988 Mustang GT AOD vert, 15.810 @ 88.871 mph 100% stock w/ no traction
1976 Silverline Comoro 18' trihull ski boat, 188 hp 302 I/O, another toy
https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/I65Stang.html
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TomP
Gearhead Posts: 6120
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99
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posted 06-29-2002 03:24 PM
The thing is that 536hp is at 6000rpm ... a much bigger cam and higher rev range may be a problem. I think they are safe to 7000 without nitrous or blowers, i'd trust them for that.I run factory stock cast 428 pistons to 6500. [This message has been edited by TomP (edited 06-29-2002).]
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I65Stang
Gearhead Posts: 6575
From: Folsom, CA
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 06-29-2002 07:43 PM
True about the bigger cam Tom. Even at 5K it looks to be ~465hp and at 3K the torque was 430 ft-lbs! The specs on that cam actually look to be pretty streetable (232 deg and .565 lift I; 240 deg and .574 lift E, 112 lobe sep, hydralic roller with 1.6 rockers). I'm wondering if a solid wouldnt be even better especially for the revs but it is a set it and forget it valvetrain running 536 hp.In theory, hypers would be better as for wear and tear as they are lighter. I guess as long as you know you will never run nitrous or a s/c aftermarket hypers would be ok. Hmm, 536hp plus 100 shot of nitrous, now that would be nuts (I think I would be happy with 536 hp  ). ------------------
Tim M&M Member #35
1965 Mustang coupe, 200 I6, Holley 2300, Clifford header, true duals w/ 26" Smithys
1988 Mustang GT AOD vert, 15.810 @ 88.871 mph 100% stock w/ no traction
1976 Silverline Comoro 18' trihull ski boat, 188 hp 302 I/O, another toy
https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/I65Stang.html [This message has been edited by I65Stang (edited 06-29-2002).]
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 6590
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 06-29-2002 10:21 PM
Hypers might be ok for someting like that, up to a point. But I have heard from more than one engine builder, that anything that is going to get run hard and make alot fo power, KB generally stands for KABOOM! I know the 5.0 guys use them all the time, but for the most part, they arent making in excess of 600 hp like that stroker would be with a 100+ hp shot on it.
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I65Stang
Gearhead Posts: 6575
From: Folsom, CA
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 06-29-2002 10:26 PM
My thing of the 100 shot would of course be with forged pistons . I already dont trust hypers for any real power adders .
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I65Stang
Gearhead Posts: 6575
From: Folsom, CA
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 07-02-2002 02:10 PM
So hypers are ok in a non-high rpm and NA car? Reason I ask is I may be selling the boat to get a 393 for the '65 but of course I'll get forged as long as the budget allows . I've wondered about hypers before as I know a number of people with stock shortblock '93-95s that run 150+ shot of nitrous on their hypers (its all in the tune of course).------------------
Tim M&M Member #35
1965 Mustang coupe, 200 I6, Holley 2300, Clifford header, true duals w/ 26" Smithys
1988 Mustang GT AOD vert, 15.810 @ 88.871 mph 100% stock w/ no traction
1976 Silverline Comoro 18' trihull ski boat, 188 hp 302 I/O, another toy
https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/I65Stang.html
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64FalconF-16
Gearhead Posts: 233
From: Republic Of Texas!! Temporarily living in KY
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 07-05-2002 11:33 AM
I asked KB about running Nitrous or a Super charger and voiced all of the concerns that I have heard about them. They were surprised to hear that people are saying to not use Nitrous or Superchargers on thier pistons. They gave me several numbers to call of people that do use them with power adders. I called three of them and got raving reviews. One even had 600 shot of N20!!! Two years... same pistons. There is a guy that I regularly race against that has KBs and runs 150 shot every run and has not had any problems. I do not run n20 but, I run hypers in my Cuda 440 and love the tight piston to wall clearance they provide. they do not expand when hot like forged pistons do. Hypers Cut down on piston slap and give a much better ring seal than forged pistons. So I think the "don't run power adders on hypers" or "hypers are bad "is a rumor started by forged piston lovers. ------------------
64 Pro-Street Falcon
351C 4V 8.1s in 1/8
79 Ford Bronco 4 X 4 Lifted 6"
400 9.9s in 1/8 :)
70 Plymouth Cuda'
440 Magnum. 2600#
Race Car 6.90 in 1/8
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Bloose
Gearhead Posts: 796
From: Milwaukee, WI
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 07-05-2002 05:47 PM
I too talked very long with KB about their Hyper pistons. They told me the exact same things they did you. They do offer the exact same piston I have in a forged piston. So if there were any question about the hypers I see no reason they wouldn't have recommended their higher priced item. I told them I would have been happy to buy the forged but they said it was unneeded.I am not running Nitrous yet but will be either later this year or next year. When I talked to KB I told them that and they had no reservations about recommending them to me. I wonder if some of the early builders gapped the rings wrong and had big problems. After that they may have just stuck with what they knew. I guess I will find out. The thing is if I nuke the motor it will be a good excuse to build a 400cid SB for my '68.
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 6590
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 07-05-2002 06:09 PM
Of course KB is goinmg to tell you everything will be fine with their product. And di you expect them to give you the numbers of guys who have lost motors do to their pistons? They are salesmen, there job is to sell products, whether it be the higher priced parts or the cheaper parts, and they cant sell anything to someone that is worried about their product being bad. Just like I bet if you were to call GER abou there sh!t convertors they would tell you how wonderful they were and give you the phone number to the one guy in the country who has one that actually works.I just feel, that if the hypers were that strong (as strong as KaBoom claims), and offered that much better ring seal due to tighter piston clearances, the pro stock cars would be running them, all the superstock cars would be using them, and the NASCAR guys would also be running them.
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cpmaverick
Gearhead Posts: 1666
From: Santa Clarita, CA
Registered: Jan 2000
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posted 07-05-2002 06:35 PM
The forged pistons are going to be lighter, that's probably the main reason they are used in the super high performance category. I have factory forged pistons in my Maverick. I like 'em because I have dropped two valves and not hurt a piston yet. Hypers would have likely cracked. ------------------
-Charlie Ping
1970 Maverick Grabber
[email protected] with AC and overdrive.
http://www.maverickgrabber.com
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 6590
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 07-06-2002 09:59 AM
quote:
Originally posted by cpmaverick:
Hypers would have likely cracked.
Nope, they would have blown up into a million pieces.
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Rustang
Gearhead Posts: 821
From: Clarion PA
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 07-06-2002 10:29 AM
It's been my experience that you can get away with cheaper parts until they break  ------------------
'68 mustang 351 clevor- 10.92@124
'67 Stang, 351W -11.18@118
'69 351C Torino-14.90@100
'78 Pickup 351W-15.56@88
'79 Pickup 460 ET=??
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n2oMike
Gearhead Posts: 2831
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 07-06-2002 01:20 PM
KB Hypereutectic pistons are very hard and don't grow much with heat. This allows them to be fit tighter in the bore than cast of forged units, providing less piston rock, and a better ring seal. They also wear extremely well.However, the REQUIRE larger ring gaps. Tight ring gaps will cause the rings to butt at the top of the bore and stick. When the rods goes to pull the piston back down, the top ring land is pulled off. Their hardness also makes them more brittle than Forged units. Therefore, instead of deforming under serious stress (hard detonation), they are more likely to crack or break. GOOD Hypers WILL hold up to high rpm and nitrous AS LONG AS THEY ARE GAPPED PROPERLY AND NOT RUN INTO SERIOUS DETONATION Some people swear by hypers, some swear at them. But, as long as they aren't installed improperly or abused with serious detonation, they hold up well. I'm not talking about the $80/set generics, but the GOOD KB units. Good Luck! ------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220
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Larry Jennings
Gearhead Posts: 540
From: Redwood City, Ca. USA
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 07-06-2002 02:57 PM
I talked with the Ford crate engine folks and they're using forged in their motors now. They say the hypes worked great 'til the temp got up. In a dyno room or boat where cooling is never an issue they're fine, and if your cooling system works good enough to control heat under full boogie (not many do) they'll be fine as well.A 600 horse shot of juice !!!!  ------------------
I'm desperately trying to figure out why kamikaze pilots wore
helmets.
- Dave Edison
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V8 Thumper
Gearhead Posts: 4681
From: Phoenix, Arizona
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 07-06-2002 07:21 PM
I've heard just too many horror stories about hypers... many I'm sure can be traced back to ring gaps and/or excessive combustion temps or events...I bought JE forged pistons for my 333 stroker just because I didn't want to be holding my breath when I wind it up, I'd rather my focus be on the tree or the road ahead
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 45869
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
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posted 07-06-2002 07:36 PM
When you build a performance engine, you don't want parts you have to walk on eggshells for. You need parts that will take a beating if they have to. I've also dropped valves on forged pistons and got to reuse them. Twice! Install pistons that can get destroyed at the first sign of detonation? Please! My friend just threw out a set of KB hypers with 800 miles that he took out of his brand-x 350. The skirts collapsed on 3 out of the 8 on those. Hypers are as light duty as cast pistons, as far as I can see. ------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1, '72 Mustang Sprint, '94 F-150
Pics
MCA Member # 47773
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