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Author
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Topic: SHORT, AND TO THE POINT...
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Boss Hoss
Gearhead Posts: 176
From: Georgia
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 11-13-2001 09:15 PM
   
Before I actually consider replacing my oil pump to solve my delayed oil pressure problem, I want to ask a direct question...for those of you who don't already know, my engine does NOT get enough oil pressure when I start it, and it runs with low pressure for a couple of seconds. While the oil pressure is low, I can hear the valves knocking around...NOT good.HERE IS MY QUESTION:
Could anything in my valvetrain possibly cause the engine not to get instant oil pressure at startup? Someone has suggested that the lifters and even the rocker adjustment could cause my slow oil pressure problem...It sounded like a crock to me, but now I'm not so sure...any thoughts? ------------------
*andy* ([email protected]) also known as...***Boss Hoss*** *1965 Mustang 289 coupe*
*1996 Mustang GT coupe*
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SuperDave
Journeyman Posts: 69
From: Tacoma, WA USA
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 11-13-2001 09:52 PM
First off, it is not valves that you are hearing but more likely the lifters and the cam bearings. If your engine sounds normal after it has run awhile, clearly your initial oil pressure is lacking. An oil pump (AND NEW DRIVE SHAFT) is a lot less expensive than cam bearings.[This message has been edited by SuperDave (edited 11-13-2001).]
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lyle29464
Gearhead Posts: 367
From: Mt. Pleasant S.C. C. S. A.
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 11-13-2001 09:55 PM
I would put a manual gauge on it to see what the numbers are. My wifes car has 100k on it and was making a noise at startup. I put some motor honey in it and it's stopped doing it. I think the lifters were leaking down.------------------
69 rag top
93 explorer
98 f 150
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SuperDave
Journeyman Posts: 69
From: Tacoma, WA USA
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 11-13-2001 10:54 PM
Some thick ail additive may indeed quiet your noises but it doesn't really address the cause. If it is an old, tired engine, some "miracle oil" may get you buy. I've seen lots of engines loose either the oil pump or the pump shaft and they almost instantly self-destruct (it is NOT) pretty. If you are interested in preserving the engine, I'd suggest getting to the root of the problem.
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Fastymz
Gearhead Posts: 1026
From: Reno Nv
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 11-14-2001 12:51 AM
Hey Super Dave nice to see you in here.Its more then just and oil additive can fix.I use restore in my old and getting older 351w it as helped with start up noise.But I know its a matter of time before I'll have to rebuild it. ------------------
65 Coupe with a 351w, RPM intake,carter625,shorty 1-5/8 headers,2.5 exhaust,Flowmasters,Black Magic electric fan,stock C4,peg leg 8" 2:80,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,Cragers SS,Black Suede finish. https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Fastymz.html
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 1411
From: from between the end of the road, and the middleof no-where
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 11-14-2001 07:43 AM
I dont know if it was mentioned before or not, but some oil filters will drain back if they sit, and that could cause the low oil pressure on initial start up. We used to have an 85 F150 with a 302, it was real sensitive to the type of oil folter we used. If we put one on it that wasnt perfect, it would do the same thing.Just a thought.
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Boss Hoss
Gearhead Posts: 176
From: Georgia
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 11-14-2001 10:22 AM
Okay, just to put to rest a couple of things so that maybe you all will get a clearer picture of my problem...First, the oil filter: I use a Ford Motorcraft FL-1A filter, which has always done fine for me before. So I don't think the oil filter is the problem. Second, the engine was COMPLETELY rebuilt about 6 years ago. This included the oil pump, which was a brand-new Melling pump at the time. I probably have about 20,000 miles on the engine (possibly more). But the engine was (and still is) very strong and reliable. HOWEVER, during that 6 year period, there was a time when the car sat for almost 2 years without even being cranked. I was going through some bad times and didn't have the money to put into the car, but now things are better. Amazingly, the engine ran pretty well, with NO delayed oil pressure until the past year or so. Just thought I would clear up those two things. I'm still looking for answers, and I appreciate everyone's input!  ------------------
*andy* ([email protected]) also known as...***Boss Hoss*** *1965 Mustang 289 coupe*
*1996 Mustang GT coupe*
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69maverick
Gearhead Posts: 534
From: Thomaston,CT.
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 11-14-2001 11:48 AM
Kid V! I was thinking the same thing!! Boss Hoss: If you don't already have a motorcraft FL-1A Get one, This might be simple.If you have a FRAM Chuck it!! Its junk anyway
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69maverick
Gearhead Posts: 534
From: Thomaston,CT.
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 11-14-2001 11:52 AM
Thats strange Hoss your post wasn't there when I started to make my reply? Just forget I said anything!!  P.S. Ya know if that filter is old it still could malfunction and leak down [This message has been edited by 69maverick (edited 11-14-2001).]
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franklin
Gearhead Posts: 109
From: VA
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 11-14-2001 02:30 PM
I remember the oil filter being discussed before, and the debate about the different brands AND also the possibility the one you have may have a problem. Like you said, it's probably not the problem, but if you haven't changed it(with another motorcraft) yet since the problem started, I would. It's just too simple to reach down and unscrew it and put another one on, and it would eliminate a possible problem that does exist with oil filters and save alot of work.
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lyle29464
Gearhead Posts: 367
From: Mt. Pleasant S.C. C. S. A.
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 11-14-2001 10:49 PM
I didn't mean to say that a worn out engine can be fixed with thick oil. I said you need a manual guage to tell what your oil pressure is when engine is cold and hot. If engine pressure is ok hot I would try different things before I changed the pump------------------
69 rag top
93 explorer
98 f 150
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 1411
From: from between the end of the road, and the middleof no-where
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 11-14-2001 11:19 PM
Ok, I'm confused too. I dont understand how if it has good oil pressure after it is running, how it could be the oil pumps fault when it first fires. I would think for it to not have pressure right at first, it would have to be losing pressure somewhere when it sits for it to "dry fire". Umm, I think I confused myself worse now. 
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Boss Hoss
Gearhead Posts: 176
From: Georgia
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 11-15-2001 07:31 AM
I attached a diagnostic oil pressure gauge to the engine a week ago.The oil pressure is 55 psi (factory specs) when the engine is running. The only problem is that it takes way too long for it to reach that pressure. When I started the engine, the pressure went immediately to 10 psi, stayed there for a half-second, then went to 20 psi, stayed there for a half-second, THEN jumped to 55 psi. The only time I was able to achieve 55 psi instantly is if I turned the engine over several times before starting it. I shouldn't have to do that!  ------------------
*andy* ([email protected]) also known as...***Boss Hoss*** *1965 Mustang 289 coupe*
*1996 Mustang GT coupe*
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 17955
From: Saco, Maine MCA # 47773
Registered: May 99
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posted 11-15-2001 07:52 PM
If you are saying it jumps from 0-55 psi in one second you don't have a problem.------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC
My Photo Page
I only want two things from life: I want patience and I WANT IT NOW!!!
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Boss Hoss
Gearhead Posts: 176
From: Georgia
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 11-16-2001 08:17 AM
Steve:
I didn't describe the time frame accurately enough. I'm sorry about that! The TOTAL time it took for my car to get to 55 psi of oil pressure was almost 3 seconds. It doesn't sound like a long time until you actually count it and think that the top end of the engine is turning all during that time.  I think I will try changing the oil filter like franklin suggested, although I'm fairly certain that the engine did this prior to my installing the present oil filter. ------------------
*andy* ([email protected]) also known as...***Boss Hoss*** *1965 Mustang 289 coupe*
*1996 Mustang GT coupe*
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Bob Hopkins
Journeyman Posts: 75
From: BRIDGEPORT NJ USA
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 11-16-2001 11:57 AM
Reading his discription of the way the oil pressure goes up on start up, does it do this every stary or just when cold??? I think there is a probulm with oil pressure check valve in oil pump!!!!
my $0.02
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Boss Hoss
Gearhead Posts: 176
From: Georgia
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 11-16-2001 02:33 PM
Bob:
It has delayed oil pressure ONLY when starting up cold the first thing in the morning. The rest of the day, the oil pressure is instantly OK, unless I let the car sit for more than 4-5 hours.------------------
*andy* ([email protected]) also known as...***Boss Hoss*** *1965 Mustang 289 coupe*
*1996 Mustang GT coupe*
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Boss Hoss
Gearhead Posts: 176
From: Georgia
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 11-20-2001 11:03 PM
Ya know, a brand new Melling pump is only $19.99 at AutoZone. I might just go ahead and put another one in there. I want to check the torque on my connecting rod bolts anyways.------------------
*andy* ([email protected]) also known as...***Boss Hoss*** *1965 Mustang 289 coupe*
*1996 Mustang GT coupe*
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74merc
Gearhead Posts: 700
From: Demopolis AL
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 11-21-2001 02:32 PM
sounds like you are losing oil pump prime somehow, either the filter is bypassing(which has been beaten to death, but highly probable) or the pick up tube for the oil pump may not be seated properly.
either way, it *might* be the oil pump, I don't know the inner workings well, but I don't think that is it, although it would be simpler just to replace the whole unit and pickup in one job.kid vishus, the oil filter has a one way valve in it, it lets oil through from the pump, but won't let it drain back down, just like sticking a straw in a drink and holding your finger on the end of it...
it keeps cold starts from being so damaging.
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 9546
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 11-21-2001 03:03 PM
OK, I'll throw my two cents in. (and I'm probably right anyway) What weight oil do you have or are you using? A 10w40 or 20w50 when sitting up over night will coagulate and take a substantial time to flow after drain back.(IE: 2 or more seconds.) That is the primary reason 99% of the OEM manufacturers have gone to specifying a 5w30. What it sounds like to me is a simple case of morning sickness if you have not adjusted the rocker arms since the problem began. ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00 & '01
Fleet of FoMoCo products
Moneymaker Bio
US Class Nationals link
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Boss Hoss
Gearhead Posts: 176
From: Georgia
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 11-21-2001 05:49 PM
Moneymaker:
You read my mind about the rocker arms. Adjusting them again was one of the projects I am going to tackle over the turkey day holiday. I do have a slight "tapper" in there somewhere.As for the oil, I use 10w30 Castrol, which is the same oil I have always used. ------------------
*andy* ([email protected]) also known as...***Boss Hoss*** *1965 Mustang 289 coupe*
*1996 Mustang GT coupe*
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n2oMike
Gearhead Posts: 498
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 11-21-2001 06:31 PM
Coagulate means to solidify.... as in blood clotting or milk turning to "curds".If it's cold, regular non-synthetic oil thickens up quite a bit, but a good anti-drainback valve in the oil filter should keep most of the oil in the oil galleries overnight. If it was sitting for a week or more, it might drain back to the pan... but not overnight. Thinner oil would drain back faster, but pump back into the empty galleries more quickly upon startup. My advice on oil selecton... On a STREET car, use a good quality STREET synthetic oil such as Mobil 1. I like 15w50 for the summer months. It is still just as thin as 10w30 when cold, yet still has decent viscosity. That being said, the anti-drainback valve on Fram filters SUCKS! There's an oil filter study out there that shows most of the popular filters all cut apart, and the Fram looks like a joke. If you are using that filter, change to something else. Purolator and Ford filters both checked out well. Good Luck! ------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 9546
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 11-21-2001 06:32 PM
Good idea! ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00 & '01
Fleet of FoMoCo products
Moneymaker Bio
US Class Nationals link
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66fstbck
Journeyman Posts: 26
From: Worhtington, Pa. USA
Registered: Feb 2000
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posted 11-21-2001 09:37 PM
Sure sounds like a drain back problem to me Andy, Especially when you said that it only happens in the morning or if you let it sit for 4-5 hours. It could be that you're oil is seaping back to the pan and it would take a couple of seconds for it to pump back up.
Good Luck,
Alan
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n2oMike
Gearhead Posts: 498
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 11-21-2001 09:51 PM
Oil Filter Study...http://www.frankhunt.com/FRANK/corvette/articles/oilfilterstudy/oilfilterstudy.html Good Luck! ------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
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Bluegras
Journeyman Posts: 11
From:
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted 11-25-2001 12:55 AM
Could it be the oil pump, pressure by-pass spring/piston is broken or sticking open. The oil pressure port is in the oil feed passage right above the pump. I believe the valve train feed is well past that point.
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