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  Ford Thunderbird
  Did the 67 T-bird have a S-code engine in it?

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Author Topic:   Did the 67 T-bird have a S-code engine in it?
68 S-code GT
Gearhead

Posts: 3835
From: Sayreville, NJ, US
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 11-19-2004 09:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 68 S-code GT        Reply w/Quote
Did the 67 T-bird have a S-code engine in it? I saw a 67 T-bird yesterday that had a S-code intake with the C7AE- -E casting on it but the heads did not have the bolt pattern like the Mustangs and Fairlanes.

------------------
Ed S.

68 S-code FB GT 4spd(now C6)/3.25 PS PDB
68 J-code(now 289) Cp Sprint"B" C4/3L00-9" PDB PS AC
99 F150 XLT Ext/cab, 4X4, 5.4L, 3L55

KULTULZ
Gearhead

Posts: 959
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 11-20-2004 07:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ        Reply w/Quote
Interesting question. During this period, (some) cylinder heads were machined (14 exhaust bolt) either for full frame cars or the intermediates. Depending on the head casting, some had the extra bosses for the additional bolt holes but were not drilled if they were not going into an intermediate engine asm.

So one would actually have to go by the head casting I.D. nos. and see how the heads were designed for runners and valve size.

-Previous Discussion of FE 14 Hole Cyl Head Exhaust Port-

------------------
I am looking for information concerning factory performance/aftermarket speed parts (1958/1960) used on the MEL (Mercury-Edsel-Lincoln) (Also Thunderbird 59/60) Engine Series (383-410-430-462) produced from 1958 thru 1968.

Also older FORD Special Service Tools

-MEL Engine Forum-

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 11-20-2004 03:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker        Reply w/Quote
S code engines had Holley carbs and a huge .486 lift camshaft.
The T-Bird 389 did not.
Although there may be some validity to Gary's statement about the cylinder heads, I have never seen those heads on any 390 other than a S code.
There was a "Q" code 428 option and it had 14 bolt exhaust manifolds.
It was a low performance engine that was ultimately used in the 67 Shelby GT-500.
Both T-Bird engines came with Autolite carbs only.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

68 S-code GT
Gearhead

Posts: 3835
From: Sayreville, NJ, US
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 11-20-2004 03:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 68 S-code GT        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
There was a "Q" code 428 option and it had 14 bolt exhaust manifolds.
It was a low performance engine that was ultimately used in the 67 Shelby GT-500.
Both T-Bird engines came with Autolite carbs only.


I couldn?t find a VIN on the car at all but it was definitely a 67 and even still had the big multiple piston brake calipers on it. Most of the dash and interior was removed along with the carb. The AC and PS brackets were still on the engine also. How could I identify if it was a 390 or a 428? Balancer, Distributor are still there and the heads had the standard big car exhaust bolt pattern. I can get the intake for $20 but is it a 390 S-code intake? It did have the big S on it.

------------------
Ed S.

68 S-code FB GT 4spd(now C6)/3.25 PS PDB
68 J-code(now 289) Cp Sprint"B" C4/3L00-9" PDB PS AC
99 F150 XLT Ext/cab, 4X4, 5.4L, 3L55

KULTULZ
Gearhead

Posts: 959
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 11-20-2004 04:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ        Reply w/Quote
quote:
There was a "Q" code 428 option and it had 14 bolt exhaust manifolds.

It was a low performance engine that was ultimately used in the 67 Shelby GT-500.


The SHELBY received the 428PI ("P" code) in 1967 (and early 1968). It was far from a low performance engine.

The intake manifold (C6AZ 9424-N) could have been used on a multitude of that period FE's. The 1966/67 390 GT series and 1966/67 TBIRD (390/428) used the same intake.

The 14 bolt exhaust pattern heads were used on the intermediates (FAIRLANE/MUSTANG) as they had the side-by-side pattern so as the special exhaust manifolds could be serviced in the tight confines of the engine compartment.

This dual pattern began in 1966 with the introduction of the FE FAIRLANE. Not all heads were drilled with both patterns. Not all heads were cast with both patterns. You did not read my referring URL.

quote:
So one would actually have to go by the head casting I.D. nos. and see how the heads were designed for runners and valve size.

If the BIRD is a 390 (4V), it will have S in the fifth VIN postion. If it is a 428, it will have Q.


------------------
I am looking for information concerning factory performance/aftermarket speed parts (1958/1960) used on the MEL (Mercury-Edsel-Lincoln) (Also Thunderbird 59/60) Engine Series (383-410-430-462) produced from 1958 thru 1968.

Also older FORD Special Service Tools

-MEL Engine Forum-

68 S-code GT
Gearhead

Posts: 3835
From: Sayreville, NJ, US
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 11-20-2004 11:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 68 S-code GT        Reply w/Quote
I?m just trying to identify the intake and if I can figure out what engine is in the car I might get that also. I was following that post and know that already. Just don?t know much about the T-birds. I also heard that the S-code intake ended with a G and not an E. Looks like this but dirty. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7935360491&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT

[This message has been edited by 68 S-code GT (edited 11-20-2004).]

Rory McNeil
Gearhead

Posts: 1889
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 11-21-2004 03:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rory McNeil        Reply w/Quote
I`m pretty sure that the Tbird 390 would be a "Z" on the VIN tag, not a S. The S was the 390 GT engine, used in the Fairlane GT/GTA& Mustangs. The Z was the regular 390 4 barrel that came in non GT Fairlanes, as well as Galaxies, TBirds & their Mercury counterparts. Many of these Z engines have a S cast in the manifold, but that does not neccasarily mean it`s a S engine.

------------------
78 Fairmont 428 4 speed [email protected]
80 Fairmont 302 5 speed [email protected]
85 Mustang NHRA M/Stock 302 5speed. [email protected]
59 Meteor (Canadian Ford) 2 dr sedan 332, auto
74 F350 ramp truck 390 4spd

KULTULZ
Gearhead

Posts: 959
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 11-21-2004 04:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rory McNeil:

I`m pretty sure that the Tbird 390 would be a "Z" on the VIN tag, not a S.

The S was the 390 GT engine, used in the Fairlane GT/GTA& Mustangs. The Z was the regular 390 4 barrel that came in non GT Fairlanes, as well as Galaxies, TBirds & their Mercury counterparts.

Many of these Z engines have a S cast in the manifold, but that does not neccasarily mean it`s a S engine.


Thanks Rory. You are correct. The intake should be correct for a 1967 GT engine as long as the date code agrees with the build date of the vehicle if you are taking it that far.

68 S-code GT
Gearhead

Posts: 3835
From: Sayreville, NJ, US
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 11-21-2004 08:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 68 S-code GT        Reply w/Quote
Thanks Guys!

I have seen some with a G (especially the 66s), is it different than the manifold ending with an E. Also what casting number would be on a 68 390 GT engine?

------------------
Ed S.

68 S-code FB GT 4spd(now C6)/3.25 PS PDB
68 J-code(now 289) Cp Sprint"B" C4/3L00-9" PDB PS AC
99 F150 XLT Ext/cab, 4X4, 5.4L, 3L55

KULTULZ
Gearhead

Posts: 959
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 11-21-2004 09:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 68 S-code GT:

I have seen some with a G (especially the 66s), is it different than the manifold ending with an E.


1966 production would have had a prefix of C6AE (most likely) or C6OE (hypothetical third character-would have to be verified). C7AE-E refers to 1967 production only unless the intake is a service replacement part for earlier/later years. If you saw this intake on a 1966 6T, (unless maybe very late production), it would be either incorrect or possibly had a service replacement intake put on it at some time.

C7AE-E is correct for 1967 assembly only. It may have been carried to 1968 production. It would have to be researched. But if you are trying to detail a 390 GT for a 67 FAIRLANE or MUSTANG, the C7AE-E will be the correct intake (cast iron) for the engine assembly.

As a side note, casting number C7AE-F is the same version in aluminum but was only fitted to the PI ("P").

quote:
Also what casting number would be on a 68 390 GT engine?

In the MPC, the 68 has a 1968 service PN. It would have to be researched as to what the correct casting number(s) were. But it was a different manifold (I would imagine very subtle difference(s) ).

Read this article to just see the differences in CJ intakes over the years;

http://www.428cobrajet.org/id-intake.html

On the BIRD, can you get the casting I.D. no off the right pan rail to see if is possibly a 428? (as both the 390 and 428 used the same heads) That would be quite a find...

68 S-code GT
Gearhead

Posts: 3835
From: Sayreville, NJ, US
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 11-21-2004 09:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 68 S-code GT        Reply w/Quote
What I meant by the G at the end was something like this, C6AE?G, The manifold I saw is C7AE-E but I heard that the GT was suppose to Be C7AE-G

------------------
Ed S.

68 S-code FB GT 4spd(now C6)/3.25 PS PDB
68 J-code(now 289) Cp Sprint"B" C4/3L00-9" PDB PS AC
99 F150 XLT Ext/cab, 4X4, 5.4L, 3L55

KULTULZ
Gearhead

Posts: 959
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 11-21-2004 09:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 68 S-code GT:

What I meant by the G at the end was something like this, C6AE?G, The manifold I saw is C7AE-E but I heard that the GT was suppose to Be C7AE-G


I am certain (well...pretty certain) that the C7AE-E is correct for 1967 only. C6AE would have been for the 1966 FAIRLANE GT engine.

KULTULZ
Gearhead

Posts: 959
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 11-21-2004 09:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ        Reply w/Quote
OH!

If you decide to buy the intake, get the dist. I.D. no off the bowl and it may tell if whether the engine is a 390 or 428.

OH Again!

The 1966 S 390 was rated 335HP @ 4800RPM
The 1966 Z 390 was rated 315HP @ 4600RPM

The 1967 S 390 was rated 320HP @ 4800RPM
The 1967 Z 390 was rated 315HP @ 4600RPM
The 1967 Q 428 was rated 345HP @ 4600RPM
The 1967 P 428 was rated 360HP @ 5400RPM

Are you trying for a dedicated restoration dated intake for a 1968 390 GT?

If so, I will try to find the correct casting I.D no for it. Let me know.

[This message has been edited by KULTULZ (edited 11-21-2004).]

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 11-21-2004 03:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker        Reply w/Quote
Better check your Shelby info Gary.
Q code, not the Police in GT-500's!
Didn't have enough to go around as 1967 was a big year for FoMoCo and law enforcement.
Hydro cam T-Bird motor with dual quads installed by Shelby. That's it!
I have pics of the plant with piles of iron intakes that have 4300 Autolite carbs on them.
Real P code 428's had aluminum intakes, Holley carbs, and solid lifters.
How many 67 GT-500's have you seen with solid lifters?
Now I'm not saying that a few Police motors didn't possibly make it in some, as it already has been documeted that several cars were delived with 390's do to 428 shortage.
With Shelby, I have learned that anything is possible.
1968 early cars got the P code motor until the CJ became readily available.
Also, the Z code engines did not get the aggresive .486 lift GT 390 camshaft.

Next thing you'll be saying is that Shelby actually removed the 390's and installed the 428's.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

KULTULZ
Gearhead

Posts: 959
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 11-21-2004 09:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ        Reply w/Quote
1965 last year of mechanical cam 390PC

1966 last year of mechanical cam 428PC

1967 428PC used C6OZ 6250-B hydraulic camshaft. Same camshaft as 66/68 390GT and 428CJ.

------------------
I am looking for information concerning factory performance/aftermarket speed parts (1958/1960) used on the MEL (Mercury-Edsel-Lincoln) (Also Thunderbird 59/60) Engine Series (383-410-430-462) produced from 1958 thru 1968.

Also older FORD Special Service Tools

-MEL Engine Forum-

KULTULZ
Gearhead

Posts: 959
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 11-21-2004 09:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ        Reply w/Quote
Oh...Depending on assembly details...The 1967 428PI could have come with an AUTOLITE 4100, a 4300 or less likely a 4150 HOLLEY.

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 11-21-2004 09:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker        Reply w/Quote
Issued: 1 April 1966


345 428 .005 2037/1566 438/438 Outer Only .040 C6AE-M,A,J,L

360 428 .005 2037/1566 516/516 Outer w Damper.040 C6AE-A,J,L

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

[This message has been edited by Moneymaker (edited 11-21-2004).]

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 11-21-2004 09:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker        Reply w/Quote
Issued: 31 March 1967
Bulletin #: FORD-67 Page 1 of 2

Specifications for the 1967 Ford engines.

345 428 .000 2037/1566 438/438 Outer Only
360 428 .000 2037/1566 481/490 Outer w Damper

Head
H.P. Disp. Gasket Cast

105 170 .050 C6DE-B, C7DE-A
120 200 .050 C6DE-B, C7DE-A
150 240 .020 C6AE-C
200 289 .065 C6CE-M,AA,C7OF-D
225 289 .065 C6CE-M,AA,C7OF-D
270 390 .040 C6AE-Y,C6OE-AF,C7AE-A,C7OE-A
271 289 .020 C5OE-A
315 390 .040 C6AE-Y,C6OE-AE,C7AE-A,B,C7OE-E,F
320 390 .015 C6OE-AE,AF,C7OE-E,F,C7AE-A,C6AE-R
345 428 .040 C6AE-Y,Z,C6AF-M,Y,C7AE-AB
360 428 .040 C6AE-AD,AE,C7AE-C,D
410 427 .030 C5AE-F,SK-35369,SK-31635 *
425 427 .030 C5AE-F SK-35369,SK-31635 *

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

Rory McNeil
Gearhead

Posts: 1889
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 11-22-2004 02:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rory McNeil        Reply w/Quote
Alex, don`t forget the very rare 67 Shelby GT 500 with the 68 1/2 CJ heads & a single 4 barrel! I bet you would have to have eyes like a HAWK to find 1 of those, eh?!

------------------
78 Fairmont 428 4 speed [email protected]
80 Fairmont 302 5 speed [email protected]
85 Mustang NHRA M/Stock 302 5speed. [email protected]
59 Meteor (Canadian Ford) 2 dr sedan 332, auto
74 F350 ramp truck 390 4spd

KULTULZ
Gearhead

Posts: 959
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 11-22-2004 06:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ        Reply w/Quote

What's with all the specs? Doesn't BarrysGrrl of Barry have any household chores for Barry to do?

I have read reports that the 67 GT500 came through with 390's (lack of 428's) and 427's...some dealer installed and some factory installed for dealer promotion purposes. Who know's. No one for certainty. What was done in Los Angeles and Dearborn in that period was not documented (or lost/forgotten).

SHELY chose the 428PI for one reason...It was the only performance offering from FORD that would not embarrass him on the street. FORD was the loser in street performance until the advent of the CJ and TASCA FORD had to beat them over the head to assemble that. The 390GT was a joke on the street.

If you wanted a fast FORD street car in the sixties, you had to build it. FORD definitely had the parts to do it with.

It was not easy being a FORD enthusist during that period.

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 11-22-2004 10:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rory McNeil:
Alex, don`t forget the very rare 67 Shelby GT 500 with the 68 1/2 CJ heads & a single 4 barrel! I bet you would have to have eyes like a HAWK to find 1 of those, eh?!


Yes sir Rory, and don't forget that it was also available with the "optional" shaker.

Heh, heh, heh
Don't get me started on that one.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 11-22-2004 10:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KULTULZ:

FORD was the loser in street performance until the advent of the CJ and TASCA FORD had to beat them over the head to assemble that. The 390GT was a joke on the street.

If you wanted a fast FORD street car in the sixties, you had to build it. FORD definitely had the parts to do it with.

It was not easy being a FORD enthusist during that period.



I agree somewhat Gary. 1966-67 especially.

If you were "everyman" and wanted it fast right off the dealers showroom floor, you didn't buy a Ford product.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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