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Author Topic:   Slowing the car consistantly....
steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 6522
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 08-07-2003 12:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here's the deal,

We have a bracket race in a little over a week in Eureka, CA. It's an old track that has a short shutdown. It's right on the Pacific Ocean and has been around since 1955. It's in need of repaving, but they are still trying to find the money.
The "no box" class is 11.00 and slower and Melissa's '66 Mustang has run 10.60, in its latest "consistant bracket trim" it's running 10.80's with mufflers in the summer heat. It will be cool way up north in Eureka and it will run 10.70s there if the track has any traction. So what do you guys think will be the best way to get this thing into to 11's and have it run consistantly? The timing is already locked at 34 degrees. Should I retard it to 30 off the trailer and maybe limit the throttle? TIA for any ideas,

SteveW

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jsracingbbf
Gearhead

Posts: 1677
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 08-07-2003 01:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jsracingbbf   Click Here to Email jsracingbbf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Only things I know that will slow it down 3 tenths is a throttle stop, a mechanical throttle limiter ( like a screw ) or a aluminum restrictor plate between the carb and intake.

This last one is easy to make if you have an old piece of interior tin/ aluminum.

Using a electricians knock out/ drag out set or if nothing else a hole saw. use an old 4 barrel gasket as a guide. The outside can be trimed with a set of tin snips.
make the hole 3/4 to 1/2 the size of the carb holes and run it UNDER the spacer.

YOU do have a spacer? This used to work on my footbrake car slowing it from a 6.80 to a 7.00 in the 1/8th.
JS

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Rory McNeil
Gearhead

Posts: 1210
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 08-07-2003 01:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rory McNeil   Click Here to Email Rory McNeil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A racing buddy runs a K/SA 78 Firebird that he ocassionally slows down to run in the slow (13.00 & slower ET) bracket class. What he does is puts on a stock type paper air cleaner, and keeps adding more duct tape to it until the car slows down enough. The last time I seen him do this, he had 3/4`s of the filters opening taped up.

------------------
78 Fairmont 428 4 speed 10.20@130mph
80 Fairmont 302 5 speed 12.8@105mph
85 Mustang NHRA Stocker 302 5speed. soon to be under the index!
59 Meteor (Canadian Ford) 2 dr sedan 332, auto
74 F350 ramp truck 390 4spd

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Tbird
Gearhead

Posts: 145
From: USA
Registered: May 2003

posted 08-07-2003 08:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tbird   Click Here to Email Tbird     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You could go to a smaller carb or even a VS 3310 or 1850 and add an adjustment to the VS to limit the amount it opens or even change to a heavier spring.

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ciscokid
Journeyman

Posts: 70
From: Cleveland, TN
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 08-07-2003 08:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ciscokid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Easy. If it is a Holley carb just prevent the secondaries from opening. That takes about 3 tenths off my car that usually runs right around 11 flat. The easiest way to keep the secondaries from opening is to remove the secondary housing to carb body cork gasket so that the vacuum signal is lost. You could also disconnect the secondary diaphram actuator rod but you will have to do something to keep the secondary plates closed as they won't stay closed by themselves with the primaries wide open.

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 6522
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 08-07-2003 03:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the good ideas guys!

I'm too lazy to make a restrictor plate, or change the carb.

The carb is a 850 dp'r so ??? A mechanical throttle stop would work.

I could run a crappy edelbrock foam air filter. It's the only thing that fits under the hood.

SteveW

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1547
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 08-07-2003 04:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yea, just unhook the 4bbl linkage and limit the shift point.

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 6522
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 08-18-2003 01:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the tips!

The car ran 11.28s on the primaries only and still pulled the front wheels 6"s off the ground with 425 cfms. Speed was down about 7 mph which was a good thing since the shut down is only about 1/4 mile. We saw one car go into the sand and get sideways, and it only ran 9's. This track was a great "experience". If you can concentrate on your opponent while trying to keep your car off the guard rails while going on a roller coaster that piches left and right, you can drive any track! Getting down the track was one thing, but watching your competetor at the same time was thier "home field advantage". Good news is we had a Great Time and brought the '66 home safe and sound. Maybe we're just spoiled? The CalTracs and monoleaf springs worked very well even with grass growing out of the launch pad. Did I mention the foot high rise in the track surface at about 80' out? That was fun, and the right lane was a "lazy S" if you wanted to stay in the groove and avoid a huge gouge with your right slick? Good stuff, reminds me of some of the outlaw tracks in the south. But overall the people were great and they are trying to raise 100,000 dollars for the repaiving project. I hope they do, and FWIW there are some very good bracket racers in Samoa. (When I first heard of Samoa Dragstrip, I thought it was in Hawaii) But no it's in California, one of our oldest tracks which started in 1955.

Check it out at www.samoadragstrip.com

SteveW

p.s. Congrats Glens67 for the runner up Saturday in Quick Street! He'd have won it if it weren't for the fast tree.

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bluestreek
Gearhead

Posts: 1289
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 08-18-2003 01:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bluestreek   Click Here to Email bluestreek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by steve'66:
Thanks for the tips!

The car ran 11.28s on the primaries only and still pulled the front wheels 6"s off the ground with 425 cfms.


Don't you just love restrictor racing!!? I have to run on half a 750 to keep mine out of the 11.s

------------------
1966 Mustang Coupe: Custom glass hood and BIG scoop sits atop a 289 stroked to 331 c.i., Steel crank and girdle, 5.4 H-beams, Forged slugs, TFS alum. heads, ported Stealth 8020 intake, Xtreme 274 Solid Roller, Holley 750 HP, long tubes, 4speed, 9" 3.50 posi.
11.86 @ 116 mph (7.62 @ 93 mph)full street trim!
DanH

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Fastymz
Moderator

Posts: 11429
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 08-18-2003 02:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastymz   Click Here to Email Fastymz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
SHOW OFF, 11.28 thats great. Glad you guys made it home ok. Sounds almost as wild as the Fernly track.

------------------
SCOOP

2.26 60'S
14.9 @ 90.86MPH

65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc.

https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Fastymz.html

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clevelandstyle
Gearhead

Posts: 638
From: Connersville, IN
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 08-18-2003 01:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for clevelandstyle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What kind of 60' times did you get?

------------------
Ben
Grabber Green '70 Mach I 351C 4V
Robbin Egg Blue '79 Fairmont 351C 4V

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 6522
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 08-18-2003 01:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ben,

The '60s were 1.48-1.50 on two barrels.

SteveW

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 33371
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 08-18-2003 05:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'd bet that vacuum was still pulling your secondaries open a small amount.

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '70 Mustang Convertible - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4538
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 08-18-2003 06:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree with Steve. That is, unless you had the secondaries wired shut. We tried slowing my car like that one time. All we did was unhook the secondaries without wiring them shut. The car was terribly inconsistant. We decided it must have been opening the secondaries a little with vacum, but it wasnt opening them the same amount each time.

But, maybe your secondary spring was tighter than ours?!?!?!

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 6522
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 08-18-2003 10:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
SteveL,

I'd take that bet! If you think about it the manifold vacumm is highest at idle and falls to 0 at w.o.t. If something was going to suck the secondaries open it would be manifold vacumm and it would do it at idle. And, no the secondaries weren't wired closed. We checked with no load reving it up to 5,000+ and they didn't open. It's kinda dangerous to check at w.o.t. under a load though. LOL

KV,

I'd guess that your C wasn't consistant on 2 barrels because your combo is tuned and geared and the torque converter stalls at high rpm. The lack of cfm's hurts top end power more than bottom end power. So your engine wasn't producing the torque where the converter wanted it. A mismatched combo won't be consistant.

What do you think? Am I all wet? BTW, the ported vacumm (above the butterflies)increases with load.

SteveW

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bluestreek
Gearhead

Posts: 1289
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 08-18-2003 10:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bluestreek   Click Here to Email bluestreek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SteveLaRiviere:
I'd bet that vacuum was still pulling your secondaries open a small amount.


I think SteveW is right. If that was true, a vacuum secondary carb wouldn't need a booster diaphram to pull itself open. All you would need is a control spring.

------------------
1966 Mustang Coupe: Custom glass hood and BIG scoop sits atop a 289 stroked to 331 c.i., Steel crank and girdle, 5.4 H-beams, Forged slugs, TFS alum. heads, ported Stealth 8020 intake, Xtreme 274 Solid Roller, Holley 750 HP, long tubes, 4speed, 9" 3.50 posi.
11.86 @ 116 mph (7.62 @ 93 mph)full street trim!
DanH

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4538
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 08-18-2003 11:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have no idea. The only ting I knopw for sure is, it was back when I was only shifting about 6500, the convertor only stalled around 5400, and running on just the primaries made the ET bounce around by over a tenth each pass in the 1/8.

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ciscokid
Journeyman

Posts: 70
From: Cleveland, TN
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 08-19-2003 05:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ciscokid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't think you guys understand how a Holley vacuum secondary operates. The vacuum circuit for the secondaries is completely separate from the other carb circuits. It is not the same as manifold vacuum. The secondary circuit has it's own pickup which is located just below the passenger side primary main venturi. It is above the throttle plate. This is a low pressure point in the airflow through the primary, even at WOT, due to it's proximity to the venturi. The idea that vacuum is zero at WOT is not true at every point in the intake path. The carb has to present a restriction to airflow in order to work at all. It does that by using venturis. Fuel is drawn out of the float bowls by the same low pressure (aka vacuum) that is used to open the secondaries. If there were no localized vaccum at WOT, there would be no fuel flowing either.

As I said in an earler post about disconnecting the secondaries to slow the car down, you have to wire the secondary throttle plates closed or they will get pulled open when the primaries are open just because of the air demand of the engine. That is similar to how the Quadrajunks and Carter AVS carb secondaries work.

When you disconnect the secondary diaphram shaft from the throttle shaft, and then open the primaries all the way, there is nothing to keep the secondaries from opening. That little link between the primary shaft and the curved slot on the secondary shaft will force the secondaries closed when the primaries are closed, but at WOT the secondaries will flop in the breeze. Probably that was what was happening on Kid's car that made it so inconsistant.

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