The New Engine Is Finally Starting To Come Together

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Author	Topic: The New Engine Is Finally Starting To Come Together
n2oMike Gearhead Posts: 2694 From: Spencer, WV Registered: Jan 2001	posted 07-17-2003 12:51 AM It's a 306 that's based on a Mexican block that's been partially filled with Hardblok. It uses a Boss 302 crank and rods, 0.200" dome Probe Twisted Wedge pistons, and a custom grind Comp solid cam measuring 242/254 @ 0.050" with a 110 lobe seperation. Compression ratio is 11 to 1, which will be on the edge for pump gas, but hopefully the aluminum heads and big cam will keep the detonation monster away. Most of the parts have been on the shelf for quite a while. I dug up the recipt for the pistons, and it was dated 1996! The old engine just didn't seem to want to die. If I was starting 289/302 from scratch, you'd be looking at a 331ci stroker topped with a set of AFR 185 heads built inside a Boss 302 block! But the next engine will be a 351W stroked out to around 400ci. Here's a few pictures... Here's a picture of a piston out of the old 289 headed engine. It's an old TRW #2249 forged unit that originally had a 0.400" dome that was cut down to around 0.040". The deck of the piston has also been cut down 0.060" to allow the use of longer 289 rods. This also raises the top ring... which isn't necessarily a good idea with significant doses of nitrous... ------------------ Mike Burch 66 mustang real street 302 4-speed 289 heads 10.63 @ 129.3 http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367 http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220 [This message has been edited by n2oMike (edited 01-03-2005).] IP: Logged
Clasy66 Journeyman Posts: 59 From: Placerville, CA (near Sacramento) Registered: May 2003	posted 07-17-2003 01:34 AM Looks great Mike! Are you going to run juice with the new motor too? I wish I had similar pictures to post of my new engine. My new engine is in pieces. . . on an excel spreadsheet. Here's what I have so far: Forged pistons 10.5:1 AFR 185 heads Comp 282S Alum roller rockers RPM Air gap MSD 6al Summit stageII rods ARP hardware I'm about $4000 over budget right now. . Just finished paying for my Mustang. Only decision left to make is whether to stroke it or not. And if so, whether to go 331 or 347. ------------------ Brandon ------------------------ '66 Mustang coupe Fresh but stock 302 Holley 4V/Edelbrock Streetmaster 289 intake Tri-y Headers/2.5" dual exhaust C4 Front disk brakes 8" 300 open rear Stock heads and cam Purchased car 06/2003 Goal: 12 second beautiful but mean daily driver. [This message has been edited by Clasy66 (edited 07-17-2003).] IP: Logged
Fastymz Moderator Posts: 20708 From: Reno Nv USA M&M#1240 Registered: Apr 2001	posted 07-17-2003 01:44 AM Mike the new motor looks great. Poor car looks like ot needs to get out soon. ------------------ SCOOP If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you. 2.26 60'S 14.9 @ 90.86MPH 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Fastymz.html IP: Logged
steve'66 Gearhead Posts: 9489 From: Sonoma,CA,USA Registered: Mar 2000	posted 07-17-2003 02:22 AM Mike, Looking Great! Can't wait to hear how it runs! Good job teach. SteveW IP: Logged
V8 Thumper Gearhead Posts: 4652 From: Phoenix, Arizona Registered: Dec 2001	posted 07-17-2003 08:05 AM Sweet! That's a slick stud girdle 11:1? W/spray??? ------------------ 1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9" All Blue Oval, no blue bottle http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/V8Thumper.html IP: Logged
kid vishus Gearhead Posts: 6405 From: middle of NC Registered: Oct 2000	posted 07-17-2003 08:11 AM Cool! So I take it the motor has finally stopped fighting you? I remember you were having some problems getting it to go together the way you wanted when you first started putting it together. IP: Logged
n2oMike Gearhead Posts: 2694 From: Spencer, WV Registered: Jan 2001	posted 07-17-2003 08:56 AM It's been fighting me every inch of the way, but it WILL learn that I'll eventually win. With how things have gone so far, I don't have a whole lot of confindence in the thing... Regardless, it will be run as hard as it will go... WITH spray! I'll probably start at 150hp, then as the engine starts to wear, it will probably be stepped up to 200 in an effort to make up for any lost power. If it goes it goes, if it blows if blows. I've got the fever to build a stroked 351W anyway. Thanks for the good words! ------------------ Mike Burch 66 mustang real street 302 4-speed 289 heads 10.63 @ 129.3 http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367 http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220 IP: Logged
Moneymaker Administrator Posts: 26813 From: Lyons, IL, USA Registered: May 99	posted 07-17-2003 09:13 AM Good for you Mike. Glad to see things coming along. Why the extra decoration on the bottom? ------------------ Alex Denysenko Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver MCA member# 53321 NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03 First SS/MA in the TENS! Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 Professional Manwhore The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked." Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!" Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!" www.moneymakerracing.com IP: Logged
n2oMike Gearhead Posts: 2694 From: Spencer, WV Registered: Jan 2001	posted 07-17-2003 10:31 AM I don't know if the shiny aluminum decoration is really functional or not... (the last engine never had one) but the 289 headed engine was at the block's limit and was bouncing the caps a bit. Maybe the girdle and block fill will be worth something... who knows. I don't really like the engine that well. Aside from all the problems so far, the port angle of the Victor Jr. does NOT match the angle of the intake ports. To really get it to work right, a person would have to do some radical filling of the floor and raising of the roof where the intake manifold and head meet. It would be PERFECT for a fuel injection or dual plane intake, though. I don't like the tall domes, and the machine work is questionable. It's just really hard to get motivated to work on the thing. My next semi-serious 289/302 will be a 331 built using a hardblok'd Boss 302 and AFR heads... but a stroked 351W is probably what's really next. I'll just need a more serious suspension to handle it. (especially on the bottle) This engine should run just as good or better than the old 289 headed beast, but won't be nearly as special. That old engine ran way better than most people ever expected. It surprised more than it's share of bowties back in it's street racing days... especially before all the aftermarket parts flooded the market. This will simply be another aluminum headed small block. It will run okay for what it is, but won't be as 'optimized' as the last engine. Yes, it's primarily just a street car... and yes, I'm a picky b*stard. I'll have fun thrashing it til' it dies. clasy66, sounds like a great combo so far. I'd definitely go with a 331 kit, as they are getting VERY cost effective nowadays. The heads will definitely support the extra cubes, and the longer stroke will make the power come on earlier in the rev range. At this point... in for a dime, in for a dollar! Good Luck! ------------------ Mike Burch 66 mustang real street 302 4-speed 289 heads 10.63 @ 129.3 http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367 http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220 [This message has been edited by n2oMike (edited 07-17-2003).] IP: Logged
mvierow Gearhead Posts: 209 From: Bay Area, Ca Registered: Apr 2001	posted 07-17-2003 06:26 PM Nice looking motor Mike. What timing set did you end up purchasing? All of the dual roller sets I looked at were limited to 6500rpm. You may consider doing a little research on that if you haven't already 'cause by the sound of it, your looking to twist that thing upwards of 7500. What TFS head did you choose? Brandon, you might consider using the 165 head for that setup. I'd call AFR for a recommendation before purchasing anything, just to get their opinion. Also, check out their dyno tests on their web site as there are some pretty interesting ford builds in there. IP: Logged
n2oMike Gearhead Posts: 2694 From: Spencer, WV Registered: Jan 2001	posted 07-17-2003 08:44 PM Yea, they recently started putting that 6500 rpm thing in the ads. Go figure. I believe the set in the old engine came from Edelbrock. It was a true roller, and seemed decent. I have two brand new chains at the house. One is a Ford Motorsport. (has Cloyes written on it) The other is one of those shiny all steel pretty ones with all the circular holes around the cam gear. Guess what... They are both loose! When measuring the diameter of all the gears, the old Edelbrock gears are the biggest by a small margin. I simply combined the old Edelbrock gears with the new Motorsport chain and most of the excess slack was gone. It's only a 3-position setup, so hopefully it will degree out ok. Summit said they had a 0.005" Cloyes unit for a little over a hundred bucks, but would probably take 10 days to get here. I want to get it degreed and slap the timing cover and oil pan on the thing. The heads some of the first TFS Twisted Wedge heads made. I bought them back when they first came out. At the time, they were supposed to be some of the best stock exhaust port height units out. I've done a bit of work with the grinder... so we'll see what they're worth. Thanks for the interest and comments! ------------------ Mike Burch 66 mustang real street 302 4-speed 289 heads 10.63 @ 129.3 http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367 http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220 IP: Logged
Ryan Wilke Gearhead Posts: 2289 From: Stanton, Michigan 49707 Registered: Oct 2000	posted 07-18-2003 12:13 PM quote: Originally posted by n2oMike: Guess what... They are both loose! Summit said they had a 0.005" Cloyes unit.... Mike, Did you have the block align-honed? If so, maybe that's the reason for the looseness - the result of the camshaft centerline to the crank centerline distance now being shorter...? Just curious, Ryan IP: Logged
n2oMike Gearhead Posts: 2694 From: Spencer, WV Registered: Jan 2001	posted 07-18-2003 01:04 PM Yes, the 0.005" unit is for align honed/bored blocks. However, my old gears seem to work out just about perfect. We'll see how the degreeing goes. Speaking of degreeing. I was just working on that. I found top center, then bolted a head on... only to find out that those nice PROBE pistons made specifically for the Twisted Wedgies, HIT THE HEADS!!!! It's not by a whole lot, as you can turn harder on the crank and make it spin on around, but as the engine is turned over (and you need to use a 'little' force) it goes 'thump' 'thump' 'thump' 'thump' as each piston strikes the head. This engine is just wonderful. I'm also going to need pushrods that are around 7-1/4" long. (I haven't checked it really close with a gasket installed yet) I went degree the cam with the last engine's 6.9" pushrods and they wouldn't even reach! Oh well, time to do some more grinding on the heads... I hope there's plenty of room for the spark plug electrodes, as I do NOT want to take the pistons out again... Oh, I forgot to mention, five out of the eight rods were too tight on the big end and had to go back YET AGAIN to the machine shop to be opened up. I went to search for the thread I had here called, 'I'm starting to hate this engine' but it seems to be gone. It contains the complete rundown to this endless source of frustration. How long do you guys keep posts around, anyway? You running out of hard drive space or something? I'm sure data builds up fast... ------------------ Mike Burch 66 mustang real street 302 4-speed 289 heads 10.63 @ 129.3 http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367 http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220 IP: Logged
mvierow Gearhead Posts: 209 From: Bay Area, Ca Registered: Apr 2001	posted 07-18-2003 06:50 PM Well, I hate to say it, but even if a second head gasket solves your clearance problem, you probably won't be satisfied knowing that you used that method to get the motor running. High compression, nitrous, and two head gaskets doesn't sound kosher. Have you figured out where the intersection is occuring? By the sounds of it, you haven't even had the chance to attach the rockers (no push rods to hold them in place), though I guess with those dome pistons it could still be hitting a valve. You may consider not modifying the heads to try and sell them for a newer set. Price for machine work and time may end up running about the same as the difference on a new set of heads minus the cost of selling your current set. Throw them on e-bay with a reserve and see what happens.. IP: Logged
V8 Thumper Gearhead Posts: 4652 From: Phoenix, Arizona Registered: Dec 2001	posted 07-18-2003 10:36 PM Sorry to hear about the 'continued' problems; I remember reading the 'I hate this motor' thread If it's any consolation, the pushrod length with my Trick Flow heads is 7.350" w/ Comp ProMagnum rockers. ------------------ 1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9" All Blue Oval, no blue bottle http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/V8Thumper.html IP: Logged
n2oMike Gearhead Posts: 2694 From: Spencer, WV Registered: Jan 2001	posted 07-19-2003 09:06 AM I've never considered a second gasket. I just stuck the head on there without a gasket to check lift and degree the cam. It is NOT piston to valve clearance problems. The dome hits the head itself. It may or may not hit with a gasket, but for flame travel, I'll be doing some work in the combustion chambers. I'll probably put a little grease in a sandwich bag, then put it in the cylinder and turn the engine over to read the close places. However, on a good note, the 'hybrid' timing gears and chain worked out perfect. It was dead on. Set to +4, it came out dead on. The cam's lobe seperation is 110.... and the intake centerline came out at 106, the exhaust 114. Cool. I can now get the oil pan and harmonic dampner on it and focus on the top end! Thanks for the good words! ------------------ Mike Burch 66 mustang real street 302 4-speed 289 heads 10.63 @ 129.3 http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367 http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220 [This message has been edited by n2oMike (edited 07-19-2003).] IP: Logged
n2oMike Gearhead Posts: 2694 From: Spencer, WV Registered: Jan 2001	posted 07-19-2003 09:10 AM [This message has been edited by n2oMike (edited 07-19-2003).] IP: Logged
bluestreek Gearhead Posts: 1724 From: Athens,GA Registered: Jul 2001	posted 07-19-2003 10:20 AM After you get all the little final fitting problems worked out and everything works out OK, you're gonna be amazed at what those TW heads can do compared to the SBF castings. ------------------ 1966 Mustang Coupe: Custom glass hood and BIG scoop sits atop a 289 stroked to 331 c.i., Steel crank and girdle, 5.4 H-beams, Forged slugs, TFS alum. heads, ported Stealth 8020 intake, Xtreme 274 Solid Roller, Holley 750 HP, long tubes, 4speed, 9" 3.50 posi. 11.86 @ 116 mph (7.62 @ 93 mph)full street trim! DanH [This message has been edited by bluestreek (edited 11-17-2003).] IP: Logged
n2oMike Gearhead Posts: 2694 From: Spencer, WV Registered: Jan 2001	posted 01-03-2005 04:31 PM Another edition of the 'engine from h*ll' and some specs and pictures. See the "I'm starting to hate this engine" thread for the latest update. ------------------ Mike Burch 66 mustang real street 302 4-speed 289 heads 10.63 @ 129.3 http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367 http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220 [This message has been edited by n2oMike (edited 01-03-2005).] IP: Logged