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Author Topic:   Bad day at the races
bluestreek
Gearhead

Posts: 1289
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 05-10-2003 11:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bluestreek   Click Here to Email bluestreek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I had a really frustrating day at the races today. I missed 3rd gear on my first time trial. Missed 4th gear on my 2nd time trial. And did the same in the 1st round of eliminations!!

In the 2nd time trial I got to go heads up with a new Vette that had some kind of 435 badges on it. I was a whole car length in front until I missed 4th gear!

The stupid sycronizers are just not letting me shift when I go over 6000 rpms. I feel the clutch release, the gear releases OK, but when I try to put it in the next gear it just grinds until I give up and slow down. I shifted it last year at 7000 rpms and didn't have these problems. I added a pint of gear oil in the winter after installing the new motor and was wondering if maybe I used the wrong weight oil. Will the weight of the oil change the way the blocking rings work in a toploader? I need some advice here please!

------------------
1966 Mustang Coupe: Custom glass hood and BIG scoop sits atop a 289 stroked to 331 c.i., Steel crank and girdle, 5.4 H-beams, Forged slugs, TFS alum. heads, ported Stealth 8020 intake, Xtreme 274 Solid Roller, Holley 750 HP, long tubes, 4speed, 9" 3.50 posi.
1/4 mi: 12.11 @ 114 mph (7.66 @ 92 mph @ 1/8)
DanH

[This message has been edited by bluestreek (edited 05-11-2003).]

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afret
Gearhead

Posts: 116
From: Lancaster, CA
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 05-11-2003 01:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for afret   Click Here to Email afret     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm no help but hope you figure it out with an easy fix. Man, how quick are those new Vettes? I can't believe it was ahead of your car in third.

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bluestreek
Gearhead

Posts: 1289
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 05-11-2003 02:47 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bluestreek   Click Here to Email bluestreek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was in front by a car length until I missed the gear. He wound up running 11.88 through the lights.
I remember now... It had "Mallet 435" emblems. Anyway, its pretty quick.

------------------
1966 Mustang Coupe: Custom glass hood and BIG scoop sits atop a 289 stroked to 331 c.i., Steel crank and girdle, 5.4 H-beams, Forged slugs, TFS alum. heads, ported Stealth 8020 intake, Xtreme 274 Solid Roller, Holley 750 HP, long tubes, 4speed, 9" 3.50 posi.
2nd pass: 12.11 @ 114 mph (7.80 @ 92 mph)
DanH

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mustang68mustangs
Gearhead

Posts: 282
From: pittsburgh,pa.usa
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 05-11-2003 09:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mustang68mustangs   Click Here to Email mustang68mustangs     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I cant offer any help either but I know that the Mallet vettes are fast.But you usually wont encounter one very often as they are big $$$$$.
Bob

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XR7
Journeyman

Posts: 20
From: Idaho
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 05-11-2003 10:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for XR7     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It could be the oil if you are using synthetic! On a toploader you don't want to use synthetic unless it is a crash box (no synchros or blocker rings) This is what David Kee told me. He said the synthetic is too slippery and doesn't slow the blocker rings down fast enough to align the next gear. He recommends Penzoil 80-90. He said he has people call him all the time with shifting problems and the first thing he asks is are you using synthetic?

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jkilroy
Gearhead

Posts: 1719
From: Vicksburg, MS
Registered: Dec 99

posted 05-11-2003 10:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jkilroy   Click Here to Email jkilroy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, according to the Mallet web site, that car puts out 500hp and 500ft lbs. and should run 0-60 in 3.9 and manage a 11.55 quarter mile and 122. No doubt with slicks and a good driver.

------------------
Jay Kilroy
68' Fastback GT 390
"No such thing as a cam thats too big"

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1547
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 05-11-2003 10:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You could probably benefit from a thinner (synthetic) gear oil. Thicker gear oils don't work very well until they get hot.

I believe the toploader requires a GL-5 lubricant. A good choice would be Redline 75w90NS. This is their GL-5 'hypoid' oil that does NOT contain limited slip additives... which most gear oils contain. (not the best for standard transmissions)

If you want to go with a GL-4 90W lube, their MT90 will allow the syncronizers to work even better.

http://www.redlineoil.com/frames/gearoil.htm

I've had decent luck with Mobil 1 75w90 synthetic, but will probably be trying one of the above this year. I'm going with Royal Purple 85-140 in the detroit locker. My shift point is 6800 rpm.

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

[This message has been edited by n2oMike (edited 05-11-2003).]

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1547
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 05-11-2003 10:50 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Did your 1/8 mile times improve after adding the 2.5" exhaust?

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

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bluestreek
Gearhead

Posts: 1289
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 05-11-2003 01:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bluestreek   Click Here to Email bluestreek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by n2oMike:
Did your 1/8 mile times improve after adding the 2.5" exhaust?


I only had one decent 1/8 mi run. The drag radials forced me to keep my launch rpm down to 2500 but I did manage a 7.68 @ 93.5 mph with a 1.79 60'. I felt a slight bog at about 20' so I'll work on the timing and jetting now that I have a baseline.

The TL 4 speed is due for an oil change so I'm gonna try to find some good NS gear oil to put back in it. David Kee website says to use 80W-140 for problem shifts and competition use. The weather is pretty warm in Georgia so I may try that first.

------------------
1966 Mustang Coupe: Custom glass hood and BIG scoop sits atop a 289 stroked to 331 c.i., Steel crank and girdle, 5.4 H-beams, Forged slugs, TFS alum. heads, ported Stealth 8020 intake, Xtreme 274 Solid Roller, Holley 750 HP, long tubes, 4speed, 9" 3.50 posi.
2nd pass: 12.11 @ 114 mph (7.80 @ 92 mph)
DanH

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afret
Gearhead

Posts: 116
From: Lancaster, CA
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 05-11-2003 02:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for afret   Click Here to Email afret     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry Bluestreek I misread your post . I'm glad you were AHEAD of the chebby. Hope the lube change fixes things.
Earl

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Fastymz
Moderator

Posts: 11429
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 05-11-2003 02:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastymz   Click Here to Email Fastymz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Glad your 1/8 time got better.1.79 60's are pretty with a 2500 launch and drag radials.
Dan you didn't let the Vett pass you I hope.
We have a few Mallet vetts around here.Theres a big Reno Vett club.I got ot see one at my brother inlaws work.The guy said he had well over $100,000 into it.
My brother inlaws best friend is a a Vett god around here.People come from all around to have him work on their car.
So don't feel think how fast your ar would be with $100,000 into it.

Keep after it Dan,with traction your going to be seeing alot of 11's.

------------------
SCOOP
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs

2.26 60'S
14.9 @ 90.86MPH

65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8"3.40 TracLoc,Cragar SS,Black Suede.

https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Fastymz.html

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Dad Vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 540
From: Moscow, Iowa, USA
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 05-11-2003 04:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dad Vishus   Click Here to Email Dad Vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Unfortunately, I've yet to see a toploader that would shift between 1st and 2nd in a race situation. A good buddy had 2 or 3 different ones with fresh rebuilds that all refused to go into 2nd.

He finally gave up and bought a Jericho.

Back when the 65s and 66s were new, another friend had a 65 with a healthy 289 that did exactly the same thing. Something about the design of the toploader, I guess.

Hope you can figure something out.

------------------
63 Falcon 377 Cleveland stroker Flying Toilet alchohol injection. 6.19 @ 110 MPH 1/8 mile
2002 Ranger FX4 daily driver
2000 F350 PSD Crew cab dually - Like commuting in a B52!!
98 US Cargo Phantom II 28'

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1547
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 05-11-2003 07:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That 'maple syrup' gear lube won't work until it's fully warmed up... but I guess it doesn't cost that much to test it.

I hope it's a long drive to the track, and you get plenty of runs in to keep thinned out. In the winter around here, you can't hardly get a car/truck with thick gear oil in the tranny to shift until it's been driven a bunch of miles. Even in warmer weather, gear oil (especially 85w140) will be awfully thick until it's been run a while.

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

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bluestreek
Gearhead

Posts: 1289
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 05-11-2003 10:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bluestreek   Click Here to Email bluestreek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mike,
It hardly ever gets below freezing here in the 3-4 Winter months and I don't drive it on those days. I have a 25 mile drive to the track and I warm it up real good!!

Scoop,
I had to watch him fly by me when I missed the gear and I just coasted to a 12.58 @ 90 MPH. But he stopped by after the race to shake my hand and tell me that I had him worried there for a second.

------------------
1966 Mustang Coupe: Custom glass hood and BIG scoop sits atop a 289 stroked to 331 c.i., Steel crank and girdle, 5.4 H-beams, Forged slugs, TFS alum. heads, ported Stealth 8020 intake, Xtreme 274 Solid Roller, Holley 750 HP, long tubes, 4speed, 9" 3.50 posi.
2nd pass: 12.11 @ 114 mph (7.80 @ 92 mph)
DanH

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1547
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 05-11-2003 10:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sounds like that 2.5" exhaust really picked it up at the track! It will make it's presence even more known in the 1/4.

Tell that vette guy not to get too comfortable.

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

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bluestreek
Gearhead

Posts: 1289
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 05-12-2003 12:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bluestreek   Click Here to Email bluestreek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The engine seems to be running cooler and wanting more timing with the 2 1/2" pipes and cold air box.

BTW: It was 90 deg. in the lanes and the stock 3 core radiator and electric fan never let the coolant get over 185*.

------------------
1966 Mustang Coupe: Custom glass hood and BIG scoop sits atop a 289 stroked to 331 c.i., Steel crank and girdle, 5.4 H-beams, Forged slugs, TFS alum. heads, ported Stealth 8020 intake, Xtreme 274 Solid Roller, Holley 750 HP, long tubes, 4speed, 9" 3.50 posi.
So far: 12.11 @ 114 mph (7.68 @ 93 mph)
DanH

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Fastymz
Moderator

Posts: 11429
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 05-12-2003 01:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastymz   Click Here to Email Fastymz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bluestreek:

Scoop,
I just coasted to a 12.58 @ 90 MPH.


SHOW OFF,

Dan was giving you bad time about the vett.I can't wait for you to get that trans working right.I'd like to read about your low 11 run.

------------------
SCOOP
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs

2.26 60'S
14.9 @ 90.86MPH

65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8"3.40 TracLoc,Cragar SS,Black Suede.

https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Fastymz.html

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 1501
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 05-12-2003 10:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bluestreek:
....and was wondering if maybe I used the wrong weight oil. .... I need some advice here please!

Dan,
I've used Redline's #58404, 'Shockproof - Lightweight' gear oil in my Toploader for 3yrs without any problems.....

Ryan

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bluestreek
Gearhead

Posts: 1289
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 05-12-2003 08:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bluestreek   Click Here to Email bluestreek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm gonna try the 85W-140 and if it works I'll just keep it in till winter gets here. It should be fine for the Summer. I'll post the results in case someone else is interested.

------------------
1966 Mustang Coupe: Custom glass hood and BIG scoop sits atop a 289 stroked to 331 c.i., Steel crank and girdle, 5.4 H-beams, Forged slugs, TFS alum. heads, ported Stealth 8020 intake, Xtreme 274 Solid Roller, Holley 750 HP, long tubes, 4speed, 9" 3.50 posi.
So far: 12.11 @ 114 mph (7.68 @ 93 mph)
DanH

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 6522
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 05-12-2003 08:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dan,

E-mail my/our buddy Glens67, he's got shifting a toploader down to a science. I think it's in your cluch adjustment.

[email protected]

SteveW

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rockafellz
Gearhead

Posts: 1291
From: San Lorenzo, CA, USA
Registered: Aug 2001

posted 05-12-2003 09:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rockafellz   Click Here to Email rockafellz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by steve'66:
Dan,

he's got shifting a toploader down to a science. I think it's in your cluch adjustment.

[email protected]

SteveW


Yeah, didn't he say he yanks that shifter like he wants to break it?

Erik

------------------
1966 Ford Mustang 2+2
Mine - Restomod in Progress

1966 Ford Mustang Coupe
Dad's - Original Unrestored

[This message has been edited by rockafellz (edited 05-12-2003).]

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Glens67
Gearhead

Posts: 325
From: Petaluma
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 05-12-2003 09:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glens67   Click Here to Email Glens67     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rockafellz:
Yeah, didn't he say he yanks that shifter like he wants to break it?

Erik


I use Red Line MTL You need to adjust your clutch for max disengage. You may have to use a heaver return spring on the fork to frame to over come over center problems. What clutch are you using? Don't be afraid to have the throw out bearing in contact with the clutch fingers, lightly,
If you haven't broke a shifter handle your not pulling hard enough!

------------------
Glen
67 GT 390
65 Galaxie 500 XL 4 Speed
It was not a Red Light they gave me a Slow Tree
I WAS NOT LATE the Tree was Fast

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4538
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 05-12-2003 09:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rockafellz:
Yeah, didn't he say he yanks that shifter like he wants to break it?

Erik


One of my buddies who drives a stickshifted 64 fairlane that runs 6.20s has a saying painted on his dash that fits right inline with Glen's way of thinking. It says
"Drive it like you hate it".

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rockafellz
Gearhead

Posts: 1291
From: San Lorenzo, CA, USA
Registered: Aug 2001

posted 05-12-2003 10:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rockafellz   Click Here to Email rockafellz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Glens67:
If you haven't broke a shifter handle your not pulling hard enough!



I test drove one of my old high school buddy's VW scriroco one time and he had one of those 8 ball shifters on it. I speed shifted it into 2nd and the 8 ball flew into the back seat.

Erik

------------------
1966 Ford Mustang 2+2
Mine - Restomod in Progress

1966 Ford Mustang Coupe
Dad's - Original Unrestored

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bluestreek
Gearhead

Posts: 1289
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 05-12-2003 10:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bluestreek   Click Here to Email bluestreek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Glens67:

If you haven't broke a shifter handle your not pulling hard enough!




That's what I'm trying to avoid!!!!

I'm using a custom 10.5" diaphram and I've never had any over-center problems. The clutch is releasing very high on the pedal and always hits hard. It just doesn't want to mesh sometimes at 6000+ rpms and can happen in any gear. The high temps seemed to make it worse.

------------------
1966 Mustang Coupe: Custom glass hood and BIG scoop sits atop a 289 stroked to 331 c.i., Steel crank and girdle, 5.4 H-beams, Forged slugs, TFS alum. heads, ported Stealth 8020 intake, Xtreme 274 Solid Roller, Holley 750 HP, long tubes, 4speed, 9" 3.50 posi.
So far: 12.11 @ 114 mph (7.68 @ 93 mph)

[This message has been edited by bluestreek (edited 05-12-2003).]

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Mike_R
Gearhead

Posts: 151
From: Indianapolis, IN 46237
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 05-13-2003 10:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mike_R   Click Here to Email Mike_R     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Assuming that the gear oil thickness or type doesn't solve your shifting problems...

I hate to say this, but it's very possible that your shifting problem is the gears inside the tranny. Each gear has little sharp pointed teeth that the syncronizer slides on and off of when you shift. They become worn over time. If you miss a gear too many times at high RPM it chews the points right off and makes them round instead of pointed. Once that happens it doesn't matter how hard you jerk the shifter or how you adjust the clutch or shifter it won't go in at high RPM.

I had this problem with one of my toploaders one time. It was frustrating because every time I raced I would miss second or third gear. I thought maybe I was just nervous or I wasn't doing somthing right. Then I switched to a different toploader with better gears in it. Never missed a gear again with it. Then I learned how to rebuild a toploader and how to tell if the gears are any good. That first bad shifting tranny had no points left on the 2nd and 3rd gear. They were totally rounded off. You can tell even when the tranny is out of the car. You should be able to shift the levers in and out of the gears with very little effort. If it sticks much at all, you're going to have a problem when you install. If you have a spare toploader pull the cover off and shift it in and out of the gears and you'll see what I'm talking about.

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[email protected]
Gearhead

Posts: 422
From: Lakewood, CO, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 05-13-2003 10:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for JCQuinn@work   Click Here to Email JCQuinn@work     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
IMHO the shift problem is the diaphram clutch. I used to race a 67 with a stock toploader and a long style clutch, shifted at 7,000 and never had a problem going to any gear. The tranny had normal gear lube in it and there was no modification done to the synchronizers or gears.

It seems like I see a lot of people with high RPM shifting problems on the various Mustang sites that I visit and they all are using diaphram clutches.

If you put in a high pressure long style clutch be sure to reinforce the clutch linkage. Mine bent visibly with a good clutch in it until I bought a second transfer bar (the clutch linkage going from the clutch pedal to the block) cut off the horizontal section and welded it to the original.

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 1501
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 05-13-2003 11:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey Dan........
I LIKE YOUR LITTLE GUY DOING THE SHIFTING & LAYING SCRAPS!!

TOO !!

Ryan

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bluestreek
Gearhead

Posts: 1289
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 05-13-2003 11:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bluestreek   Click Here to Email bluestreek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by [email protected]:
IMHO the shift problem is the diaphram clutch.

I wish it were that simple. But i've used this Plate before with great results on the same tranny. Something is different and I haven't found it yet.

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Dad Vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 540
From: Moscow, Iowa, USA
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 05-13-2003 12:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dad Vishus   Click Here to Email Dad Vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by [email protected]:
IMHO the shift problem is the diaphram clutch. I used to race a 67 with a stock toploader and a long style clutch, shifted at 7,000 and never had a problem going to any gear. The tranny had normal gear lube in it and there was no modification done to the synchronizers or gears.

It seems like I see a lot of people with high RPM shifting problems on the various Mustang sites that I visit and they all are using diaphram clutches.

If you put in a high pressure long style clutch be sure to reinforce the clutch linkage. Mine bent visibly with a good clutch in it until I bought a second transfer bar (the clutch linkage going from the clutch pedal to the block) cut off the horizontal section and welded it to the original.



Now that you mentioned the diaphram clutch, I think you have hit it on the head.

In the old days when I street raced with Chevies, in particular, the first thing we got rid of was diaphram clutches. The reduced pedal pressure was good, but the high RPM shifts, power or otherwise, really sucked. Back then, a Schieffer clutch was the way to go, but they are long gone.

I peeled most of the lining off a long style rebuilt in about 3 days once. My parts guy laughed at me when I asked about warrantee.

Seemed like they wouldn't guarantee for 7 grand power shifts.

The pedal pressure required will be greater with a good long style, but the shifts will be better.

------------------
63 Falcon 377 Cleveland stroker Flying Toilet alchohol injection. 6.19 @ 110 MPH 1/8 mile
2002 Ranger FX4 daily driver
2000 F350 PSD Crew cab dually - Like commuting in a B52!!
98 US Cargo Phantom II 28'

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Mike_R
Gearhead

Posts: 151
From: Indianapolis, IN 46237
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 05-13-2003 12:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mike_R   Click Here to Email Mike_R     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My toploaders have always been stock too. The diaphram clutch may be a problem, but in my situation I was running an expensive long style clutch when mine was not shifting into gear 2nd and 3rd at high RPM. I had everything set-up and adjusted right it, but the high RPM shifting just started getting worse and worse to the point where I just couldn't hit the gears without granny shifting. I tried adjusting everything, tried running thicker gear oil, thinner gear oil, synthetic, nothing helped.

After I put in the other toploader with better gear teeth, it shifted perfect and I used the very same clutch, pressure plate, shifter and all.

I've rebuilt a few toploaders and this problem with the worn gear teeth is very common on well used or abused toploaders. Anybody who has rebuilt toploaders and is familiar with their inner workings will know what I'm talking about.

Right now I'm running a totally stock big in/out toploader in mine that I rebuilt and put all new gears in. I'm pushing about 700 hp through it and missing gears is never a problem. It shifts like butter.

I'm not saying the diaphram clutch isn't the problem, but if it does have the worn gear teeth there is no clutch, shifter, or any kind of adjustment that can fix it without replacing 2nd and 3rd with new gears. It's not normally the syncronizers that go bad either, it's the gears themselves where the syncronizer engages them.

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 1501
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 05-13-2003 04:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mike_R:

...I just couldn't hit the gears without granny shifting.

Mike_R,
What do YOU call granny shifting?
What is YOUR preferred shifting technique?

-- stabbing the clutch or no clutch during a shift?

-- letting off the gas pedal for an instant or holding it down while shifting?

I'm thinking that the shifting technique may also have something to do with tranny gear life and sucessful shifts at 6K+ rpms...

Any other 'Stick-Yanker' care to share their shifting technique?

Ryan

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Mike_R
Gearhead

Posts: 151
From: Indianapolis, IN 46237
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 05-13-2003 09:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mike_R   Click Here to Email Mike_R     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey Ryan, granny shifting for me is letting off the gas completely, pushing the clutch pedal all the way down to the floor and then shifting. I don't like doing it that way.

My normal racing shift is to hold the gas pedal to the floor and simultaneously press the clutch to the floor and jam it in gear. I try to do both very quickly. Also a rev limiter is highly recommended to do this.

I think the best way to keep from tearing up the toploader engagement teeth is to first have a tranny that has good (pointy) teeth to begin with and second don't miss a gear in the first place (for whatever reason). If you start missing gears, find out what's wrong and don't continue missing that gear. For instance if there is a problem such as the diaphram clutch the guys were talking about. Fix that before you try to power shift again or you before you know it you will ruin the gear(s) by missing them.

Missing a gear at high RPM is very destructive to the engagement teeth so it's a viscuous cyle. It's alot like using a phillips screwdriver bit in a drill. It works great as long as you keep it engaged but once it slips off it starts tearing off the points of engagement. The more times it disengages (like a missed gear) the worse it destroyes the screw.


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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 1547
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 05-13-2003 10:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I used to powershift, but got tired of wearing transmission gears out on a constant basis. I quit doing that a long time ago.

Nowadays, I just shift really fast. I don't let off all the way, but don't leave it matted either.

Of course, with a stock toploader, powershifting on the bottle (using a throttle switch) just isn't an opton... but every now and then I'll find myself doing it off the bottle every now and then... but I don't make a habbit of it.

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 33371
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 05-15-2003 05:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can see why you guys like stickshifts...

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150

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bluestreek
Gearhead

Posts: 1289
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 05-16-2003 12:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bluestreek   Click Here to Email bluestreek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was wondering when someone with a auto-majic was gonna rub it in. Don't think I haven't thought about it!

I finally got a chance to change the oil in the 4 spd. The old oil was pretty thin and very metallic so I let it drain overnight. I looked around for hours the next day trying to find an oil that had no limited slip additives and finally gave up and bought some Pennzoil 85W-140 semi-synthetic oil. So far it seems to be working great! The gear changes feel silky smooth without the grabbiness that it had before. I tested it several times in every gear at 6500 rpms without any misses.

The real test will be at the track though.

------------------
1966 Mustang Coupe: Custom glass hood and BIG scoop sits atop a 289 stroked to 331 c.i., Steel crank and girdle, 5.4 H-beams, Forged slugs, TFS alum. heads, ported Stealth 8020 intake, Xtreme 274 Solid Roller, Holley 750 HP, long tubes, 4speed, 9" 3.50 posi.
So far: 12.11 @ 114 mph (7.68 @ 93 mph)
DanH

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 1501
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 05-16-2003 12:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bluestreek:
...So far it seems to be working great! The gear changes feel silky smooth without the grabbiness that it had before. I tested it several times in every gear at 6500 rpms without any misses.

The real test will be at the track though.



Dan,
Don't let those slush-box boys rattle ya!

Ryan

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