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Author Topic:   Long hello from newbie
ukracer
Journeyman

Posts: 65
From: South Wales UK
Registered: Apr 2003

posted 04-29-2003 01:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ukracer   Click Here to Email ukracer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
'Evening all. Just a quick hello from a newbie so be gentle. Quick background so we know where we stand. I have '69 and '70 Fastback Mustangs, the '70 for 19 years having drag raced 289,351W (both 4-sp)and since '84, 460/C6 combos. Best of 11.63/120.7 before lost interest and took up Sprinting (against the clock around a circuit/course) and finally Historic circuit racing where US musclecars are in a minority as I am in the UK. The '70 was banned as it was a rule-breaker (chassis mods for drag racing, 460CJ etc) hence the '69 which is rules-compliant but not competitive, which is partly why I am here looking for help/advice in the engine department. Our rules are fairly tight so making power is not too easy and as I drive the car to the races I have to consider fuel economy,drivability and reliabilty issues.
Brief rundown on the mill for your perusal:
1969 M code 351W +.030 with KB181 hypers. Piston-to-head clearance is .039" so there is real quench! Heads are 69, mild home ported with stock size valves, screw in studs and CC roller tip rockers (rail-type) All CC springs/collars/keepers. Intake is stock Edelbrock Perf.RPM with Holley 600D/P
Headers are Flowtech 1 5/8" into 3" 'X' pipe then 2.5" system/Hedman turbo mufflers and tailpipes out to the bumper. Cam is CC XE268 and ign is stock points set to 34 total. Think that's about it for now. Rear is 3.00 and box is 2.78 Toploader. Pulls like a train and charges up through the gears but just can't get past other cars on track plus (big issue) just hits a wall at about 5200rpm. Sorry for long post but I'm new here! Let the questions/suggestions commence!
Cheers, Martin

------------------
69FB 351W-4v/Toploader
70FB 460CJ/C6

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capri man
Gearhead

Posts: 3385
From: doerun, ga.
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 04-29-2003 02:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for capri man   Click Here to Email capri man     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
welcome martin, you have come to the right place. dont worry about asking dumb questions, because you wont get flamed for it. if they did that here SCOOP and myself would be nothing but a pile of ashes!!! lol
good luck

------------------
mike r
racing is real
everything else is just a game.
81 capri-7.51 @89mph 1/8
1.54 60 ft.
http://prestage.com/site/site_display.asp?SiteID=141

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capri man
Gearhead

Posts: 3385
From: doerun, ga.
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 04-29-2003 02:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for capri man   Click Here to Email capri man     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
what do yall think guys?? a little more gear and a litle more gas!! just my opinion, i could be wrong..

------------------
mike r
racing is real
everything else is just a game.
81 capri-7.51 @89mph 1/8
1.54 60 ft.
http://prestage.com/site/site_display.asp?SiteID=141

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ukracer
Journeyman

Posts: 65
From: South Wales UK
Registered: Apr 2003

posted 04-29-2003 02:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ukracer   Click Here to Email ukracer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the welcome Mike, I should have mentioned that I have been monitoring this and other forums for some time and picked this one as the best. Hope I am right! I already feel as though I know a few here due to my 'lurking' recently and it influenced my choice. I should also have said that much of my engine's specs are non-negotiable (ie, rules mandate some things) so to clarify, here's more info (groans)
Heads can't be changed: Porting is ok, bigger valves too. The 'rail type' rocker system must stay. Holley 600 is fixed. Intake must be dual plane. Exhaust is free as long as (a) meets noise checks and (b) is road legal. Block/crank/rods must be stock. Pistons free but as it's all new I don't want to change it all! Ignition must be points if originally fitted.
I need more grunt! Help me!
Cheers, Martin.

------------------
69FB 351W-4v/Toploader
70FB 460CJ/C6

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4538
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 04-29-2003 02:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Welcome to M&M.

First thing, what do the rules allow for motor upgrades?

If it is allowed, more gear would help, and since you drive it to the races, I would stay around a 3.50 gear.

------------------
Rob Hetzler
member #773
'69 mustang, 351C, best 9.97 @ 133 mph 1/4, 6.18 @ 109.9 1/8
'70 mustang, soon to be 351W powered
'93 F150 Lightning 15.33 @ 87 mph, completely stock with 170k miles
'60 Falcon wagon project car
'99 Pro Et track champion
'00 Mod ET R-up (with new car)

My Photo Page

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 6522
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 04-29-2003 02:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Martin,

Welcome to M&M!

What do your rules allow you to do to the heads? Your heads and the little 600 carb are too restrictive in my opinion.

SteveW

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 6522
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 04-29-2003 02:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ukracer:
I should also have said that much of my engine's specs are non-negotiable (ie, rules mandate some things) so to clarify, here's more info (groans)
Heads can't be changed: Porting is ok, bigger valves too. The 'rail type' rocker system must stay. Holley 600 is fixed. Intake must be dual plane. Exhaust is free as long as (a) meets noise checks and (b) is road legal. Block/crank/rods must be stock. Pistons free but as it's all new I don't want to change it all! Ignition must be points if originally fitted.
I need more grunt! Help me!
Cheers, Martin.


Well ok then, port the heads and install a custom ground cam.

SteveW

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4538
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 04-29-2003 02:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ok, so the points have to stay. DOes it have to be single points? I would think a decent dual point dizzy would be better than the factory single points.

I would think a little bigger cam and a stealth intake would make more power, especially over the 5200 wall you have now.

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Fastymz
Moderator

Posts: 11429
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 04-29-2003 02:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastymz   Click Here to Email Fastymz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Welcome to Mustangs and More I'm no expert here.But here's my .02 I'd go for more cam and more gear both.

My 351 is mostly stock with a real mild cam.Stock heads ect and it hits a wall at that same rpm.Thats why I think with more cam and better flowing heads you'll move it up closer to 6000 rpm.

------------------
SCOOP
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs

2.26 60'S
14.9 @ 90.86MPH

65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8"3.40 TracLoc,Cragar SS,Black Suede.

https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Fastymz.html

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ukracer
Journeyman

Posts: 65
From: South Wales UK
Registered: Apr 2003

posted 04-29-2003 02:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ukracer   Click Here to Email ukracer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, thanks for your welcomes and for thoughts on my problems. I have thought long and hard about all this so let me reply to the suggestions here.
More gear: been discussing this with a racing mate today and we decided that the 3.00's are prob. best as top speed is now about 120ish due to rpm limit. I need top end to pass cars.
Intake: Would the Stealth really be any better than the Ebrock RPM? Have tried a small open spacer but no better.
Points: May switch to MSD 6AL to help there (allowed) Have to rob the '70.
Porting: I have given the exhausts a blast (no smog bump, all enlarged except floor)
and the intakes have quite a bit of bowl/transition work. The main port body is just lightly smoothed and the pushrod restriction is enlarged about .100" at the top, tapering as it drops to the floor.
Cam: Yes, I left this for last. Due to all the changes needed at the heads for springs if I go bigger, I am unhappy about going hog wild here. However (and this is where I would value Alex's input) the CC282S uses the same spring setup as the XE268. See how I'm thinking? I know Alex has recommended the 282S for smallblocks in the past and I may go that way if I get enough 'push'. Problem for me is I have 'set up' my engine on EA and it tells me that the 282S is no better than the XE268, so if I did change and found no improvement I would feel like donkey of the year. 'Spect you're all getting bored now, huh?
Cheers, Martin.

------------------
69FB 351W-4v/Toploader
70FB 460CJ/C6

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 6522
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 04-29-2003 04:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Bored, no way.

But Alex is the man for getting h.p. out of an castiron headed, undercarb'd engine.

SteveW

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[email protected]
Gearhead

Posts: 422
From: Lakewood, CO, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 04-29-2003 04:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JCQuinn@work   Click Here to Email JCQuinn@work     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
These heads respond pretty well to larger valves. If you can use smaller diameter valve stems they will also help. If you have to stay with the stock stem diameter, use the valves with the undercut stems.

The biggest problem you are going to have with this motor is getting more air past the heads. Work with your cam grinder to get something that will optimize high velocity flow because that is what you have. Do not rely on a off the shelf cam if you are trying for maximum horsepower. Call your chosen cam company and discuss your setup. (or email, cheaper than a looong distance call)

Oh, more compression always helps.

John

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N266fords
Gearhead

Posts: 557
From: Spokane ,WA USA
Registered: Apr 2003

posted 04-29-2003 05:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for N266fords   Click Here to Email N266fords     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Welcome i am new also but I would say 3.55 and a 750 vac sec a best would help with out killing your drive around town or freeway Bruce

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 33371
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 04-29-2003 05:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Welcome to M&M, Martin.

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4538
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 04-29-2003 05:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you get the motor to make more power and a little higher in the rpm band, a shorter gear will help. The 3.00 gear is bogging the motor too much (makes the motor work too hard to accelerate), and that will kill mph, especially in high gear.

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jim1320
Journeyman

Posts: 75
From: white plains, maryland, usa
Registered: Apr 2003

posted 04-29-2003 05:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jim1320   Click Here to Email jim1320     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Welcome to M&M more gear 4.11 and carb how about a 780 or 750 holley jim1320

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 04-29-2003 07:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Welcome to M&M Martin. !
Don't waste your time or money on a stealth intake. If you want to race then just get the best there is from the start.
Victor Jr.
No brag, just fact!

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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Mpcoluv
Gearhead

Posts: 945
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 04-29-2003 07:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mpcoluv   Click Here to Email Mpcoluv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
How close do they check the heads?
Would anyone notice if you had a set of Roush 200 Iron heads that were ported? Are casting numbers actually checked?
The Roush 200 logo can be milled off and the heads sandblasted to put a "mold" finish back on them.
Alex recomended a Vic. Jr which is probably the best intake.
I think you said you were limited to a dual plane. If that's the case, then an Performer RPM air-gap is probably the best dual plane.
If you can get by with the Roush 200 heads for a while, then a stroker crank might work well
Sorry, too much NASCAR locally to take any rules seriously
BTW can you run a Cleveland? No airflow problems there with 4V heads.....

[This message has been edited by Mpcoluv (edited 04-29-2003).]

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ukracer
Journeyman

Posts: 65
From: South Wales UK
Registered: Apr 2003

posted 04-30-2003 10:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ukracer   Click Here to Email ukracer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK guys, thanks for the thoughts. There are some ideas there which I was already thinking but it's always good to have a second opinion. Much of what was suggested (Vic.jr, 750/780 Holleys,better heads etc) are not allowed if you check my earlier posts. I guess most here are into drag racing as I once was, so I can understand your ideas but believe me, this game is different. Low gears would give me a pathetic top speed and I would get passed by everyone and their dog, and the 3.00's do not hold the car back as you might think. I can out-drag almost everyone in my class from a standstill but on the track is another game. This engine needs to be making more power, but legally. I am not going to be a cheat and I am sure there is more to be had if I speak to the right people. If it helps spur you on, mine is now the only American car racing in my class, since the only other ('68 Camaro) was chucked out for illegal parts (Dart heads, illegal intake, oversize brakes)
Cheers, Martin.

------------------
69FB 351W-4v/Toploader
70FB 460CJ/C6

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ccode67
Gearhead

Posts: 1605
From: douglasville,ga,usa
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 04-30-2003 11:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ccode67   Click Here to Email ccode67     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Welcome Martin

The restrictions in road racing are pretty ugly aren't they.

I'm running into the same thing here, too many mods for a class it would be competitive in and not enough for the higher class.

------------------
Stuart
MCA #48902
M&M #1091
67 stang 5 speed, 351W,
Edelbrock Performer RPM package

my photo page

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Mpcoluv
Gearhead

Posts: 945
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 04-30-2003 12:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mpcoluv   Click Here to Email Mpcoluv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You need to find a really good cylinder head porter then.....
AFR used to get in the 220 CFM range back when they were porting heads.
I ask again, Can you run a Celveland?

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 04-30-2003 12:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For a dual plane, then take the time to find and spend the money on a C90X.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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ukracer
Journeyman

Posts: 65
From: South Wales UK
Registered: Apr 2003

posted 04-30-2003 12:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ukracer   Click Here to Email ukracer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Stuart, thanks for the welcome. I think the restrictions are OK, they help prevent 'cheque-book' racing and make us think harder! some of them are frustrating: we are not allowed any cooling ducts to the brakes so discs crack frequently and everything overheats. Twice now I have suffered total brake loss in races but survived and drove home after quick bodge repairs. Things have settled down a bit now since I fitted Superlite wheels (Minilite type) and the temps have dropped from 800+C to about 600C. Still pretty hot!
Do you race yours? What sort of class/rules?
Mpcoluv: Engines have to be in period, and as Clevelands were not fitted till '70, the Windsor looks the best option.
I don't know even if we have any pro-porters here! Maybe for Eurobox engines but US V8's are not so well supported and of course, everyone just slams on a set of aftermarket heads these days so original iron types are a bit 'last year'.
Only other option would be to import a set of ready-done heads (must be C9 castings) but the cost would be prohibitive I think.
It ain't easy racing US Muscle in the UK, you know!
Cheers, Martin.

------------------
69FB 351W-4v/Toploader
70FB 460CJ/C6

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methylated
Journeyman

Posts: 43
From: wytheville,va usa
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 04-30-2003 01:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for methylated   Click Here to Email methylated     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
slap an 850 baseplate on you carb , and you'll get more airflow AND stronger jet pull, win ,win.

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ukracer
Journeyman

Posts: 65
From: South Wales UK
Registered: Apr 2003

posted 04-30-2003 01:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ukracer   Click Here to Email ukracer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nope, 600 Holley is the deal. End of story and that means 1 9/16" throttles IIRC. There was another thread here asking about teardowns at races. It does happen and I am not getting caught 'cos I'm not going to cheat.
Alex: I have never seen a C90X manifold here and wouldn't know where to get one. Bottom line? Would it be noticeably better than the Performer RPM? Anything I can do to the RPM to help?
Cheers, Martin.

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 04-30-2003 02:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
E-bay or the M&M classifieds Martin.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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ccode67
Gearhead

Posts: 1605
From: douglasville,ga,usa
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 04-30-2003 02:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ccode67   Click Here to Email ccode67     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
SCCA Autocross, been wanting to do some "large track" running but need the disc brakes first, still running the manual drums all around, 4 wheel discs are next on the list.

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