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Author Topic:   Block Talk "Torque Plates and block distortion"
D&S Induction Systems
Gearhead

Posts: 118
From: Columbia Heights Mn U.S.A.
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 03-10-2003 06:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for D&S Induction Systems   Click Here to Email D&S Induction Systems     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I hope you guys find this topic interesting.

I'm doing another 347, using a stock factory 2 bolt block. This block was bored .030 over and align honed.

After the machining was done I started the blue printing prosses. I found the cylnders were "egg shaped", ranging from .0009"-.002". This is because a "torque plate" was installed throughout the machining prosses.

If you don't know what a troque plate is, it's basicly a plate that bolts to the block to simulate the head being torqued on. When the heads are torqued on, the block can distort. This goes for the main caps too.

The next time you have you're engine rebuilt, I recomend you have them use a torque plate. It minght be a little extra $ but it's well worth it!

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 03-10-2003 07:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Correct!
That's what "precision" machining is all about!

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 43152
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 03-10-2003 07:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you go to a machine shop that doesn't use torque plates, RUN LIKE HELL.

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150

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Fstln69
Gearhead

Posts: 535
From: Westmont,il
Registered: Jan 2003

posted 03-10-2003 07:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fstln69   Click Here to Email Fstln69     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Make sure they check the align bore first before they bore also.Had a machine shop do a block for me got it home checked the mains and they weren't done and they needed to be,can you imagine where the cylinders were?RUN AWAY RUN AWAY

------------------
69 fairlane 351w [email protected] before M&M.. after??
always in search of more HP and faster ET'S

Fstln69 Pics Page

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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 4377
From: Arizona
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 03-10-2003 10:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yep, I had my Mexican block torque-plated. Mains torqued on too. See my leak down test thread... there's some hard-core proof of precision machine work

------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9"

All Blue Oval, no blue bottle
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/V8Thumper.html

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D&S Induction Systems
Gearhead

Posts: 118
From: Columbia Heights Mn U.S.A.
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 03-10-2003 10:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for D&S Induction Systems   Click Here to Email D&S Induction Systems     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by V8 Thumper:
Yep, I had my Mexican block torque-plated. Mains torqued on too. See my leak down test thread... there's some hard-core proof of precision machine work


Yeah, I read you're thread. Real nice work!

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Fastymz
Moderator

Posts: 18703
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 03-11-2003 01:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastymz   Click Here to Email Fastymz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think I'm the only one around here,that this is new too.
I learn more each day,but boy it's tuff being the least educated one in the forum.
Keep posting info and I'll keep learning.

------------------
SCOOP
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs

2.26 60'S
14.9 @ 90.86MPH

65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8"3.40 TracLoc,Cragar SS,Black Suede.

https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Fastymz.html

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CometGT1974
Gearhead

Posts: 372
From: Asheville, NC USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 03-11-2003 08:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for CometGT1974   Click Here to Email CometGT1974     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would say yes and agree that on any high performance application you should definitely have the block torque plate honed. When you are building your basic OE replacement type engine it's probably not necessary.

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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 4377
From: Arizona
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 03-11-2003 08:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Talking to my machinist, he tells me that sbc's are really bad about distorting. Says that some chebbie guys go as far as to torque on a dummy bellhousing too

------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9"

All Blue Oval, no blue bottle
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/V8Thumper.html

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 2419
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 03-11-2003 09:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by V8 Thumper:
Talking to my machinist, he tells me that sbc's are [b]really bad about distorting. Says that some chebbie guys go as far as to torque on a dummy bellhousing too
[/B]

The bolt that screws in right between the cylinders is the biggest culprit in Chevys. They definitely distort more.

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 43152
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 03-11-2003 09:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CometGT1974:
I would say yes and agree that on any high performance application you should definitely have the block torque plate honed. When you are building your basic OE replacement type engine it's probably not necessary.

Straight bores are always the way to go.

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150

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CometGT1974
Gearhead

Posts: 372
From: Asheville, NC USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 03-11-2003 09:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for CometGT1974   Click Here to Email CometGT1974     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So on my F-250 rebuild, which was a basic OE budget rebuild, should I have used torque plates on that?? Does Ford use torque plates when they are building these motors?? Did they use them in the days of the muscle cars? Not arguing, just curious!!

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 43152
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 03-11-2003 10:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A lot of corners are cut in mass production. Why would you want to? I don't think my machinist even charges me extra to pull out the torque plate, he knows I expect it.

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150

Please remember our sponsors,
Mustangs Plus, NPD, Osborn Reproductions, MyFordPerformance.com, and FordRamAir.com

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Tea'sGrabber
Gearhead

Posts: 276
From: Seattle, Wash.
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 03-11-2003 11:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tea'sGrabber   Click Here to Email Tea'sGrabber     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Question here Gentlemen.. How much extra Horsepower do you think is gained from truely blueprinting a block? Squaring it,using torque plates, and straightning the mainline... What do you think?? MoneyMaker?? How many hours do your S.S. blocks have into them? Thanks...

------------------
Todd 71 Mav Grabber All orig 306 cu.in. Cast Iron heads. Carillo Rods.Best et. 10.71 @ 124 thru the mufflers.

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D&S Induction Systems
Gearhead

Posts: 118
From: Columbia Heights Mn U.S.A.
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 03-11-2003 01:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for D&S Induction Systems   Click Here to Email D&S Induction Systems     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tea'sGrabber:
Question here Gentlemen.. How much extra Horsepower do you think is gained from truely blueprinting a block? Squaring it,using torque plates, and straightning the mainline... What do you think?? MoneyMaker?? How many hours do your S.S. blocks have into them? Thanks...


Over all, it's not a matter of HP gain. It's a matter of making shure all of the parts are the size thay should be. Or custom fitting them to the way you want them to be. Differnt piston material requiers differnt clearnces as well as an N2o or supercharged engine. Setting up correct quench distances and ring gaps can increase you're power, increase or decrease cylnder tempiture.

On a high end performance/race engine, I spend on avrage 6 hours doing a full blueprint. Everything is checked and set with an accuracy of .0005". Cylnders are accurate to .0001".

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[email protected]
Gearhead

Posts: 826
From: Lakewood, CO, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 03-11-2003 03:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JCQuinn@work   Click Here to Email JCQuinn@work     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
CometGT1974, Use of torque or Honeing plates started in the late 60's. Anyone who was preparing an engine for racing used them. Most high performance oriented people also began useing them for all engine re-builds.

Some bocks distort differently than others.
For example an FE engine should have the water pump bolted on.

If anyone here is racing an FE I am curious if the leakage past the valves on the end cylinders has been fixed. I worked some with John Dusenbury back when he was racing a 428. We were able to improve the leakdown some but were not anle to eliminate it. If you don't mind shareinf, how did you fix it?

John

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 2419
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 03-11-2003 03:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Some people will bolt a torque plate to the head when doing the valve job.

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

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[email protected]
Gearhead

Posts: 826
From: Lakewood, CO, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 03-11-2003 05:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JCQuinn@work   Click Here to Email JCQuinn@work     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
N20Mike, Tried that on the FE, it helped but the head was still distorted when bolted to the block.

John

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 03-11-2003 06:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by [email protected]:
CometGT1974, Use of torque or Honeing plates started in the late 60's. Anyone who was preparing an engine for racing used them. Most high performance oriented people also began useing them for all engine re-builds.

Some bocks distort differently than others.
For example an FE engine should have the water pump bolted on.

If anyone here is racing an FE I am curious if the leakage past the valves on the end cylinders has been fixed. I worked some with John Dusenbury back when he was racing a 428. We were able to improve the leakdown some but were not anle to eliminate it. If you don't mind shareinf, how did you fix it?

John


You can't.

That's why any top FE racers use Shelby blocks or 427 blocks with 8 new sleeves.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 03-11-2003 06:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tea'sGrabber:
Question here Gentlemen.. How much extra Horsepower do you think is gained from truely blueprinting a block? Squaring it,using torque plates, and straightning the mainline... What do you think?? MoneyMaker?? How many hours do your S.S. blocks have into them? Thanks...



A lot. Probably and honest 5% minimally with precision machining.
On average we have about 20 hours in a NEW
A-302 block. That includes lifter bushings and roller cam bearing machining.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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Tea'sGrabber
Gearhead

Posts: 276
From: Seattle, Wash.
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 03-12-2003 10:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Tea'sGrabber   Click Here to Email Tea'sGrabber     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks, Alex..... I thought it would be great information. So that the next time they talk with a engine builder about building they're "National Record Holding" engine and the machinist hits them with the cost. They understand horsepower = cubic $$$ + time!!!!! And that a true race motor has to be machined, mocked up and checked, usually machined again. I've had numerous people ask my engine builder to how much to build a engine like the one I have? He's honest with them and when they hear the cost, they are floored. He just pulls out the final bill and shows them the hours.Food for thought.. Thanks again M&M

------------------
Todd 71 Mav Grabber All orig 306 cu.in. Cast Iron heads. Carillo Rods.Best et. 10.71 @ 124 thru the mufflers.

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jkilroy
Gearhead

Posts: 1808
From: Vicksburg, MS
Registered: Dec 99

posted 03-12-2003 11:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jkilroy   Click Here to Email jkilroy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
While torque plates do help attain a better bore shape, I don't think it can compensate for the biggest difference between a running engine and a bare block, heat. How does everyone feel about that issue. I am sure the heat in a running engine causes just as much, if not more, movement than fastener torque. I am sure this is doubly so with all of the OEM aluminum blocked motors built today. I have heard of folks boring and honing blocks while in a tank of hot oil, but even that is not realistic as the heat in a block would vary widely from deck to sump.

------------------
Jay Kilroy
68' Fastback GT 390
"No such thing as a cam thats too big"

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[email protected]
Gearhead

Posts: 826
From: Lakewood, CO, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 03-12-2003 12:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JCQuinn@work   Click Here to Email JCQuinn@work     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As I remember some guys experimented with running hot water through the block during the honeing process. Probably caused a lot of extra work with little or no gain. I don't think it cought on.

John

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