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Author
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Topic: 350 RWHP and 20 MPG How would U do it?
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SundanceKid
Gearhead Posts: 1001
From: UT
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 03-09-2003 04:09 PM
   
350 rear wheel horsepower and 20 miles per gallon on the highway. How would you do it
in a 3000lb vehicle?
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MrWesson22
Gearhead Posts: 1209
From: Dacula, GA
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted 03-09-2003 04:45 PM
I'd buy a 99 cobra and put a procharger on it.
------------------
Neal 69 Gulfstream Aqua Grande
351C/4sp
https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/MrWesson22.html
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n2oMike
Gearhead Posts: 1547
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 03-09-2003 04:58 PM
Mild fuel injected small block with a blower.------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220
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Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 11429
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 03-09-2003 04:59 PM
A 393w,5speed,3.0 rear gears and 28" tall tires.
You need about 450hp @ flywheel to get 350 rwhp.
And if you drive down hill almost all the time you should be fine.  ------------------
SCOOP
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 2.26 60'S
14.9 @ 90.86MPH 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8"3.40 TracLoc,Cragar SS,Black Suede. https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Fastymz.html
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mustangboy
Gearhead Posts: 652
From: Ont, Canada
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 03-10-2003 11:00 AM
Joe DaSilva of pro 5.0 drag racing fame used to come out and to our local hangout once in a while.He was driving a 4 door fairmont with a 5 litre drivetrain and a centifugal blower.He said it would run 10.60s at the track with slicks and he was getting in the high 20 mpg range on the highway with the 5 speed overdrive.Don't know any of the details on the engine but I know it was in a ford magazine of some type,maybe someone else has seen it.The car was purple and was kind of unique being a 4 door.
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BlueMule
Gearhead Posts: 858
From: Kent Island, MD USA
Registered: Sep 2002
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posted 03-10-2003 11:12 AM
What everybody else has said but use the current Lightning roots (Eaton) blower setup. Under most conditions, the supercharger isn't making boost unless engine vacuum goes to 0. Under these circumstances, the supercharger is bypassed and gets the same MPG as any other 5.4L. A nice 3.00 or 3.25 ring and pinion set would bring down the MPG even further. Once she goes to 0 vacuum, the bypass opens up and all the HP the engine is designed to make is in your face, almost instantly.------------------
-Paul 70 Mach1 351C
79 Ranchero GT
97 Expedition XLT 5.4
00 SVT f150 Lightning 4149 of 4966 Born on: 06/26/2000 'life's tough... it's tougher if you're stupid.' [This message has been edited by BlueMule (edited 03-10-2003).]
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capri man
Gearhead Posts: 3385
From: doerun, ga.
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 03-10-2003 11:29 AM
quote:
Originally posted by SundanceKid:
350 rear wheel horsepower and 20 miles per gallon on the highway. How would you do it
in a 3000lb vehicle?
have you put a pencil to this? do you realise how many miles you would have to drive and how much gas you would have to save to pay for a supercharger?? the supercharger would be worn out before you broke even. not trying to be negetive, just an observation. remember the early seventys when a lot of people traded in their big cars on little cars just to save 4-5 mpg. they lost thousands of $ which they never recovered with the better miledge. im off of my soapbox now. good luck ------------------
mike r
racing is real
everything else is just a game.
81 capri-7.51 @89mph 1/8
1.54 60 ft.
http://prestage.com/site/site_display.asp?SiteID=141
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SundanceKid
Gearhead Posts: 1001
From: UT
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 03-10-2003 03:53 PM
Capri man, I'm curious how would you do it? I agree, that a blower would get the job done. But price would be a concern. I know I didn't put a price limit. Anyone out there have a combo they use to do this?
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capri man
Gearhead Posts: 3385
From: doerun, ga.
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 03-10-2003 04:06 PM
honestly sundance i dont have a clue. especially if emmissions is involved. i think it would take some kind of overdrive trans and some real easy hiway driving just to get close.------------------
mike r
racing is real
everything else is just a game.
81 capri-7.51 @89mph 1/8
1.54 60 ft.
http://prestage.com/site/site_display.asp?SiteID=141
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jdsgallops
Gearhead Posts: 326
From: Naples, FL
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 03-10-2003 04:36 PM
I will get more specific. Stock 302 ho bottom end with a comp cam 266hr. Home ported stock heads with big valves, EFI intake of choice. Long tube headers, and other bolt on's included. Should see about 325hp out of this combo and then throw a 150 shot of N2O on it.
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indyphil
Gearhead Posts: 773
From: Lafayette, IN, USA
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 03-10-2003 05:28 PM
Dont forget the guy that featured in an article i think in Mustangs and Fords. he worked for Garret and made a twin turbo 302, he made 600hp with the boost turned up as high as he dared, and I bet he could turn 20Mpg on the highway with the boost set right. Turbos are very efficient and EFI helps. I dont think displacement is the right way to go it is inefficient at lower loads (cruising) I agree with Capri man. In Europe a lot of people by turbo diesels to counter the 4 dollar a gallon prices. Even with outrageous prices and a 50mpg diesel, the payback period is almost the life of the car compared to a gas powered 30mpg. Diesels are typically a few thousand dollars more to start with. it works for you if you drive many miles (most in Europe drive less than 20,000 a year)
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Gearhead
Gearhead Posts: 2164
From: Vancouver Island, Great Wet North
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 03-10-2003 05:34 PM
Buy an 03 Cobra... there's your 350+ hp at the rear wheels (see http://www.pylon1.com/cobra/dynoday.htm ), and 20 mpg on the highway.For the 3000# part of the equation, cut off the roof, lose the hood doors all the seats except the drivers, strip out carpets, stereo, speakers, interior panels and sound deadening. That should get you close.  Oh come on guys, it was kinda funny!!! ------------------
Cheers,
Ian
M&M Member #395
-------------------
Former owner of 1979 Mustang Indy 500 Pace Car #9R03F480505
Ian's Pace Car Website
Vancouver Island Mustang Association Website
Indy Pace Car Registry of Mustangs Official Website "A friend will bail you out of jail after you do something stupid... a real friend will be sitting beside you saying 'That was SO COOL!!'".
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D&S Induction Systems
Gearhead Posts: 118
From: Columbia Heights Mn U.S.A.
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 03-10-2003 06:41 PM
OK, here it goes...Get a bone stock 302, build it bullet proof and load it up on N20... This is how alot of people get away with driving arround with 1000+ HP under the hood.
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SundanceKid
Gearhead Posts: 1001
From: UT
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 03-10-2003 11:05 PM
Reason I realy ask, is I have done this personaly before in a hmmm..Chevy.mumble. The combination gave me 22MPG and a 12.88 timeslip I dono what that would figure out to in HP off the top of my head. No blower. No Fuel injection just a boring old Chev 350. Performer intake, long tube headers, Rochester carb,Heads ported by yours truely, mild cam 3.08 gears an average speed of 65MPH for 300 miles. Just wondered if it was possible with a Ford?
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jsracingbbf
Gearhead Posts: 1677
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 03-11-2003 01:29 AM
quote:
Originally posted by SundanceKid:
Reason I realy ask, is I have done this personaly before in a hmmm..Chevy.mumble. The combination gave me 22MPG and a 12.88 timeslip I dono what that would figure out to in HP off the top of my head. No blower. No Fuel injection just a boring old Chev 350. Performer intake, long tube headers, Rochester carb,Heads ported by yours truely, mild cam 3.08 gears an average speed of 65MPH for 300 miles. Just wondered if it was possible with a Ford?
You could do it with a FORD but you would have to still give the Chevy a head start. LOL GOTCHA
later
JS
BTW if you still have the Chevy I'll spot you a tree LOL
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jdsgallops
Gearhead Posts: 326
From: Naples, FL
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 03-11-2003 09:20 AM
quote:
Originally posted by SundanceKid:
average speed of 65MPH for 300 miles.
This throws a curve ball into the equation. I don't look at a steady state cruise 22mpg as 20mpg. How often do you cruise for 300 miles? 20 mpg to me includes city driving, which is stop and start along with idling. This is why I choose stock ported heads in my build up. What you are looking to do is build torque so your throttle tip in is low. This is also why I choose EFI. Doing it with a carb would be more difficult, but possible. A similar 351, to your 350, should perform close to the same, main problem I would see if the heads. You would need DOOE heads to do this, which would take alot of work. Going with an aftermarket set would be a better idea.
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 33371
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
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posted 03-11-2003 09:23 AM
Sounds like a slightly modified fox would fit the bill.------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150 Please remember our sponsors,
Mustangs Plus, NPD, Osborn Reproductions, MyFordPerformance.com, and FordRamAir.com
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jkilroy
Gearhead Posts: 1719
From: Vicksburg, MS
Registered: Dec 99
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posted 03-11-2003 01:15 PM
THINK TURBO!Buick 3.8 V-6, turbo, right setup should get you 500 at the rear wheels while pulling down at least 24 with a nice overdrive. As far as the 5.4 Lightning goes, "any other" 5.4 gets terrible mileage. I think it is rare that a 5.4 gets 20 on the highway in any stock form. (read, low power) As far as the payback on a turbo-desiel goes, do the math... I have had the pleasure of owning many Ford trucks. My 96 F250 Powerstroke 4x4 got 20 combined average, not towing. My 99 F150 5.4 4x4 got maybe 13. If you drive 20,000 miles a year that works out to an extra 1538 gallons a year for the F150. At current prices that works out to payback in less than two years, out in CA it means payback in one. Now throw in the automatic 100K mile warranty on the diesel and the much higher resale value and it becomes a much better deal. Actually it is a shame that they don't sell the 1/2 ton diesel they sell in some other countries. Check this bitch'n super duty F100 sold down south, a short bed F100 that comes standard with a 3.9 liter Cummins http://www.ford.com.ar/prod_f100.asp ------------------
Jay Kilroy
68' Fastback GT 390
"No such thing as a cam thats too big"
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old fart
Journeyman Posts: 34
From: ORLANDO, FLA. ORANGE CTY
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted 03-11-2003 02:13 PM
gear venders overdrive----old hone overdrive units both can handle the horse power.Had a hone on my 427 galaxie got 14-16 with hevey foot. Haven't seen a hone in years,gearvenders run 1000.00+ can handle anything you put to it.
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Kyle
Gearhead Posts: 240
From: Sumner, WA
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 03-11-2003 02:20 PM
I have to agree with Jay, turbo is the way to go. A junkyard twin turbo can be built fairly cheap, and make excellent power. You don't need a special camshaft, the stock 5.0L roller cam works great, and numerically lower rear end gears help keep the car in power at the track and help with fuel economy. While a blow-thru carb turbo set-up would be cheaper, an EFI set-up would probably get better fuel economy. And you can turn the boost up and down for racing or street use. Don't forget turbos take less HP to turn than belt-driven superchargers.
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 33371
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
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posted 03-11-2003 02:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by old fart:
gear venders overdrive----old hone overdrive units both can handle the horse power.Had a hone on my 427 galaxie got 14-16 with hevey foot. Haven't seen a hone in years,gearvenders run 1000.00+ can handle anything you put to it.
$2595, these days:
http://www.gearvendors.com/prices.html ------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150 Please remember our sponsors,
Mustangs Plus, NPD, Osborn Reproductions, MyFordPerformance.com, and FordRamAir.com
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TomP
Gearhead Posts: 4812
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99
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posted 03-11-2003 05:22 PM
That isn't very tought at all, it certainly wouldn't require EFI... my Ranger gets better mileage than that ballasted up to 3000lbs (by carrying a small load), i'd have a bit of leeway to add extra HP to make 350HP and still keep it over 20mpg
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jsracingbbf
Gearhead Posts: 1677
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 03-12-2003 02:26 AM
quote:
Originally posted by SundanceKid:
Reason I realy ask, is I have done this personaly before in a hmmm..Chevy.mumble. The combination gave me 22MPG and a 12.88 timeslip I dono what that would figure out to in HP off the top of my head. No blower. No Fuel injection just a boring old Chev 350. Performer intake, long tube headers, Rochester carb,Heads ported by yours truely, mild cam 3.08 gears an average speed of 65MPH for 300 miles. Just wondered if it was possible with a Ford?
First off I want to see this set up on a chevy and it make 350 rear wheel HP, I hate to sound skeptical but.... I'd have to see it. What was the 60'? What was the MPH? 1/8th mile time? I've seen alot of chevys run at the track I'd like to see this one. It may run the 12.88 but 350RWHP? 
sorry man ain't happenin. Not with a stock cam and a performer intake and headers. If it is then call Grumpy J.& Smokey Y., they want your secrets. Hey but I could be wrong what do I know about chevys? 
later
------------------
Jerry
69 Mustang Pro ET Drag
70 Mustang retired former footbrake car
" If Bracket Racing was EZ everyone would be doing it!"
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jsracingbbf
Gearhead Posts: 1677
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 03-12-2003 02:29 AM
quote:
Originally posted by SundanceKid:
Reason I realy ask, is I have done this personaly before in a hmmm..Chevy.mumble. The combination gave me 22MPG and a 12.88 timeslip I dono what that would figure out to in HP off the top of my head. No blower. No Fuel injection just a boring old Chev 350. Performer intake, long tube headers, Rochester carb,Heads ported by yours truely, mild cam 3.08 gears an average speed of 65MPH for 300 miles. Just wondered if it was possible with a Ford?
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jsracingbbf
Gearhead Posts: 1677
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 03-12-2003 02:30 AM
Opps  strange I thought I did this only once?
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bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 1289
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 03-12-2003 08:32 AM
Here's my recipe:
This combination should give a nice torquey 270-280 RWHP with 20-22 MPG using 87 octane. Add only 100 HP N2O on the strip and you have 375 RWHP.
5.0 block bored .030 over
TFS Twisted Wedge heads
port matched GT-40 intake
70 mm t-body & 80 mm mass airflow meter
24 lb./hr injectors
190gph pump and adj. regulator
8.7:1 TFS 347 pistons #51404110
221/225 duration TFS hyd. roller #51402000
5.4" rods
3.4" (347) crank
1 5/8 headers
2 1/2" exhaust w/H-pipe
Dan
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capri man
Gearhead Posts: 3385
From: doerun, ga.
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 03-12-2003 09:18 AM
I GOT IT!!!! go ahead and build your engine to haul azz and forget about the gas miledge. then buy yourself an old v-w rabbit diesel for about $300 and get 40 mpg with it!! let your hot rod sit untill you want to play! serious!!------------------
mike r
racing is real
everything else is just a game.
81 capri-7.51 @89mph 1/8
1.54 60 ft.
http://prestage.com/site/site_display.asp?SiteID=141
IP: Logged |
pthornton
Gearhead Posts: 598
From: Austin, TX USA
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 03-12-2003 08:09 PM
2000 4.6L 2V long block
Lightning 90MM MAF & 42lb injectors
EEC-tuner
FRPP shorties & BBK x-pipe w/cats & Saleen/Borla cat-back
Vortech SQ 8lb kit
368 RWHP - 363 RWTQThis turns 22MPG in my 3800lb convertible and runs high 12s. Drives just like stock except for the blower whine, and passes inspection. ------------------
1989 Saleen Coupe # 653
1996 Saleen Convertible #14B [This message has been edited by pthornton (edited 03-12-2003).]
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 6522
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 03-12-2003 10:38 PM
I've been watching this thread and now I feel compelled to respond. It does not take 350 rwhp to propell a 3000 pound vehicle to high 12 second quarter mile et's.
275 rwhp will easily get the job done in street/strip trim. So the question should have been 275 RWHP and 20 MPG How would you do it? answer:
The same way you did it with the chebbie! A 351w in a '65/66 stang. The 351w and the 350 Chebbie are remarkably similar. Other than the better bottom end of the Windsor. Depending on the year and whether or not your Chebbie had camel back heads, the top end of the engines is questionable. But with the aftermarket heads a Windsor will run with ANY 3 1/2 Chebbie motor w/ equal heads! SteveW
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SundanceKid
Gearhead Posts: 1001
From: UT
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 03-13-2003 12:41 AM
quote:
Originally posted by jsracingbbf:
Oh, I did build it(in highschool). It did run a best 12.88...thats why I want to do it again!
As for the cam I never said it was stock. Steve66, I didn't run the numbers. I was erring in excess. So by your math 300 RWH will get a 3000lb car done in 12's with time to spare?
It should be easier this time around using a manual instead of the auto. Everyone, great info at first I didn't think this thread was going to go anywhere! Keep the combos comming. I was considering a twin Garrett T3 turbo setup. There are Murkurs and turbo Mustangs all over in the yards here. I already have one T3 ($40.00) sitting in my garage.
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jsracingbbf
Gearhead Posts: 1677
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 03-13-2003 01:02 AM
quote:
Originally posted by steve'66:
I've been watching this thread and now I feel compelled to respond. It does not take 350 rwhp to propell a 3000 pound vehicle to high 12 second quarter mile et's.
275 rwhp will easily get the job done in street/strip trim. So the question should have been 275 RWHP and 20 MPG How would you do it? answer:
The same way you did it with the chebbie! A 351w in a '65/66 stang. The 351w and the 350 Chebbie are remarkably similar. Other than the better bottom end of the Windsor. Depending on the year and whether or not your Chebbie had camel back heads, the top end of the engines is questionable. But with the aftermarket heads a Windsor will run with ANY 3 1/2 Chebbie motor w/ equal heads! SteveW
EXACTLY what I was saying! 12's I believe not the HP numbers! ------------------
Jerry
69 Mustang Pro ET Drag
70 Mustang retired former footbrake car
" If Bracket Racing was EZ everyone would be doing it!"
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bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 1289
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 03-13-2003 08:53 AM
quote:
Originally posted by jsracingbbf:
EXACTLY what I was saying! 12's I believe not the HP numbers!
I met a guy at the strip that was running a V6 Turbo T-bird and showed me a dyno slip that said he was making 335 RWHP. He was only running 12.90 in the 1/4 mi. Do you think the dyno shop doctored his numbers or is a 5 spd T-bird with only a passenger seat really that heavy? ------------------
1966 Mustang Coupe: Custom glass hood and BIG scoop sits atop a 289 stroked to 331 c.i., Steel crank and girdle, 5.4 H-beams, Forged slugs, TFS alum. heads, ported Stealth 8020 intake, CompCams Xtreme Solid Roller, Holley 750 HP, long tubes, 4speed, 9" 3.50 posi.
e.t. 12.50 @ 112 mph
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