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Author
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Topic: Holley vs. Edelbrock carbs.
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cobravenom71
Gearhead Posts: 746
From: Kissimee, Fl USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 03-05-2003 01:02 PM
   
Can someone give me the facts on which carb is actually a better carb for street-use. I'm talking about a mild (250-300 horse) small block, 4-speed, otherwise stock drivetrain.
I have heard a lot of rhetoric about the pro's and con's of each carb from a lot of different sources.
And is the 'new' AVS carb from Edlebrock any good? (actually, I think it's just a re-jiggered Carter AFB or something like that)
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JoeD
Journeyman Posts: 50
From:
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 03-05-2003 01:23 PM
I've run a Carter, Edelbrock, 625 on my 65 Mustang for ten years with NO problems.
It has not flooded, or not started, one time.
It will idle forever, even after a long freeway haul in the Arizona heat.
I have a 289 that is slightly modified.
The Carter works great for what I use it for with no fuss...EVER.Joe
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cobravenom71
Gearhead Posts: 746
From: Kissimee, Fl USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 03-05-2003 01:42 PM
Joe, are you referring to the Edlebrock 'Performer' series? I think that is thier revamp of an old Carter AFB. Thanks for the info.
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JoeD
Journeyman Posts: 50
From:
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 03-05-2003 01:54 PM
Cobravenom,Yes, that is the same carb. I run a manual choke and it has been a pleasure to drive the car.
I know racers don't care for the Carter/Edelbrock but it has been very good to me as a street carb.
If you look at the Edelbrock website they even list rebuilt carbs at good prices.
I belong to a car club in my hometown of Payson Arizona and the elevation there is 5000'. Hardly anyone runs Holleys but nobody races either. I drive my Mustang down to Phoenix 1200', up to Flagstaff 7000', and it never misses a beat.
I'm pleased, to say the least...plus I run it over 6000RPM frequently.
I run a performer RPM manifold. 4-speed, headers. Joe
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cobravenom71
Gearhead Posts: 746
From: Kissimee, Fl USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 03-05-2003 01:57 PM
Thanx for the info. I will definately check out the rebuilt (cheaper?) carbs at the edlebrock site.
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 19704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 03-05-2003 02:31 PM
If you are just going to "drive" the car and are not concerned with maximum performance, the Jimmy Carter/Edelbrock peanut carbs are hard to beat.
No offence to anyone, but they are pretty much a dummy" carb. Bolt it on turn a couple of screws and go.
As I have always said, there is a place for them. Show queens, street rods, school busses, tow trucks etc.  ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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JoeD
Journeyman Posts: 50
From:
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 03-05-2003 03:02 PM
Alex,It is not as simple as you say. I installed mine upside-down the first time. My car went backwards. Joe
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cobravenom71
Gearhead Posts: 746
From: Kissimee, Fl USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 03-05-2003 04:11 PM
OK, Alex. How much more performance would I be able to get out of a basically stock samll-block with a Holley vs. an Edlebrock. Since there isn't a whole lot of performance availible in the first place, will the Holley still deliver a noticeable difference?
I'm mostly concerned about simplicity and reliability, without the need for a lot of regular 'adjustments'. These cars will be driven mostly by my teenage daughters, and I don't want them to think that there is a need to 'monkey' around with them all the time.
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JoeD
Journeyman Posts: 50
From:
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 03-05-2003 04:35 PM
Venom,The guys here are racers and Holleys work for them. I am going to race and will try my carb first and switch if it can't cut the muster.
Now I'll tell you what my Holleys, I used to run, did on my Mustang. I tried two, like an idiot, brand-new Holley 1850 vacuum secondary carbs. Both would run fine then start to surge and flood. They would not respond to my attempts to repair them and I'm not a fool as a mechanic.
After struggling with them I got the Carter and never looked back.
Performance...my Mustang is set-up with street tires and I can smoke them through second gear. I took my car out on the highway and ran it to 7000 RPM in fourth gear and indicated 140 MPH with my Stewart Warner speedometer which is fairly accurate.
For MY kids I know what I would do...unless they use the cars for racing. Joe
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 19704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 03-05-2003 04:38 PM
A 600 something CFM Holley like let's say an Avenger 670 series will out perform a 625 Ed/Carter in the neighborhood of 10-15 HP or two tenths every time. Even on a low-po engine. The delivery and atomization is just more precise.
Get the jetting, and floats right, adjust the idle and mixture screws for highest vaccum and you are good to go.------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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JCQuinn@work
Gearhead Posts: 422
From: Lakewood, CO, USA
Registered: Jun 2001
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posted 03-05-2003 04:51 PM
I just want to say that I have been running Holley on both race cars and street cars (not continuously) since the 60's and have never experienced any problems with them. I am sort of puzzled why others have such poor luck.John Actually since the 50's if you count that wierd looking Holley that Ford used in the late 50's.
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Toronado3800
Gearhead Posts: 356
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 03-05-2003 06:01 PM
I too noticed my friends who leave their carbs alone buy Edelbrocks and the others buy Holly's and spend the TIME to learn how to optimize them. Seemed kinda like multiple guess for the fellas who didn't test and tune at the track since none of us had access to a dyno. Cobravenom, I've seen plenty of precise advice on this site from those more experienced with carbs on EXACTLY what to jets etc to put in your Holly that could save you the time my friends spent fouling out plugs or running too lean. Heck, they even sell chrome Hollys now that look good 
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65_302
Gearhead Posts: 239
From: Bixby, OK
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 03-05-2003 07:23 PM
On my son's coupe we went from a Edlebrock 600 cfm vac sec to a 650 Holley dp and gained 1 FULL second at the track. Now, I will say this is on the XB3 crate engine and the Edlebrock was probably not right to begin with. But the Holley was easy to set up and maintain, once you take the advise of those on this board that know what they are talking about. After racing for one almost one season with it, we had one issue and Alex was there to give us the correct fix. I drive the coupe on the street each week and my son abuses it on the weekends  and we really like the way it responds. For us, this Holley works fine for both street and strip. [This message has been edited by 65_302 (edited 03-05-2003).]
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capri man
Gearhead Posts: 3385
From: doerun, ga.
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 03-05-2003 07:48 PM
i run 2-3 weekends a month year round and i havnt turned a screw on my holley in 1 1/2 years. the best thing you can do to a holley is to leave it alone!!! forget everything your buddys tell you and just leave the dam thing alone.------------------
mike r
racing is real
everything else is just a game.
81 capri-7.51 @89mph 1/8
1.54 60 ft.
http://prestage.com/site/site_display.asp?SiteID=141
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 19704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 03-05-2003 07:58 PM
Mike, are you talking about your carburetor or your wife? ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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Rory McNeil
Gearhead Posts: 1210
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 03-06-2003 03:14 AM
I don`t know where all this "Holleys need constant teaking" BS comes from. My 428 Powered Fairmont uses the same Holley 780 vac. sec. (3310-1) that I bought new in 1976. Sure I`ve rebuilt it a few times over the past 25+ years, but mainly from extented sitting. My 74 F350 racecar hauler, & my 302 Fairmont both have small Holley 4 barrels too. The Fairmont actually uses the original 76 390 truck Holley that came on the 390 I rebuilt for the truck about 10 years ago. I put a kit in this carb almost 10 years ago, & other than minor jetting chances about 5 years ago, I have not touched it. This is a daily driver, & race on weekends car, & the Holley works great. I rebuilt the carb on the truck when I rebuilt the 390, as mentioned, about 10 years ago. This truck sits pretty much, from late October thru March (Racing off-season), but still has worked great all this time. I wouldn`t use anything else.------------------
78 Fairmont 428 4 speed 10.20@130mph
80 Fairmont 302 5 speed 12.8@105mph
85 Mustang NHRA Stocker under construction, 302 5 speed
59 Meteor (Canadian Ford) 2 dr sedan 332, auto
74 F350 ramp truck 390 4spd
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itlbrnmoff
Gearhead Posts: 746
From: Indianapolis,IN.USA
Registered: Nov 2002
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posted 03-06-2003 03:52 AM
#1411 Edelbrock 750cfm FOR SALE $20.00....------------------
Low Dollar 1983 Mustang GT W/T-tops...
306 4bbl. T-5 3.45 trac-loc...it'll burn 'em off
1988 Lincoln LSC
5.0 auto full power
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JoeD
Journeyman Posts: 50
From:
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 03-06-2003 09:00 AM
Itlburnemoff,If you're serious post you're e-mail and I'll contact you. Joe [This message has been edited by JoeD (edited 03-06-2003).]
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JoeD
Journeyman Posts: 50
From:
Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 03-06-2003 09:24 AM
You know what this discussion reminds me of? Racing motocross. It wasn't Holleys and Edelbrocks...it was Mikunis and Amals.
I ran Amal carbs on Bultaco and BSA modifieds called CCM's, well a little more than modified. Most people had Japanese bikes with Mikunis and they worked fine so they started to bad-mouth the low-tech, British designed Amal. Guys would switch to a Mikuni and most times it was a mistake. If you could tune the Mik it was fine but it never was what I'd say better than an Amal, just different. One was better on top, the Mikuni, one was better everywhere else, the Amal. Neither was better at EVERYTHING.
I feel this is the story with Holley and Edelbrock/Carter.
All I know is that a lot of guys that said "You can't beat us with that four-stroke and Amal" spent a lot of time picking rocks out of their Jofas from my rear Metzler.
Ah...the good old days.I'm done,
Joe
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 19704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 03-06-2003 12:36 PM
Next someone will be touting the advantages of SU's and Stromberg 97's LOL ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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cobravenom71
Gearhead Posts: 746
From: Kissimee, Fl USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 03-07-2003 09:22 AM
Well, since I am on a budget for these cars, price is definately a concern. The Holley's I need are around $325 each, but the edlebrocks are only $170 each! Don't yell at me, but I'm getting the Edlebrocks. Thats even cheaper than rebuilding the Holleys I have(which I will keep and rebuild when I get the opportunity) ------------------
1971 'J' code 429 Mach 1
1976 'Starsky & Hutch' Torino (460)
1973 Grande
1973 Mach
1973 Convertible
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JoeD1860
Journeyman Posts: 48
From: Arizona
Registered: Mar 2003
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posted 03-07-2003 10:14 AM
Venom,Why not just try one carb? Either brand. See how you like it before doing both cars?
If you get an Edelbrock and are unhappy with it let me know and I'll take it off your hands, at your cost, and pay shipping too.
You can't lose. Joe [email protected]
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cobravenom71
Gearhead Posts: 746
From: Kissimee, Fl USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 03-07-2003 12:33 PM
Good idea. I'll let you know.
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mellowyellow
Gearhead Posts: 5668
From: So. Fl.
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 03-07-2003 01:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
Next someone will be touting the advantages of SU's and Stromberg 97's LOL
Su's were commonly referred to as suck ups! It was fun to pull the plunger out of the top of the carb and leave that Limey hangin' out to dry! Particularly when someone is trying to bird dog his lady!
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 33371
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
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posted 03-07-2003 03:25 PM
Solex sucks!  ------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150 Please remember our sponsors,
Mustangs Plus, NPD, Osborn Reproductions, MyFordPerformance.com, and FordRamAir.com
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Mpcoluv
Gearhead Posts: 945
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 03-08-2003 08:27 AM
quote:
Originally posted by cobravenom71:
Well, since I am on a budget for these cars, price is definately a concern. The Holley's I need are around $325 each, but the edlebrocks are only $170 each! Don't yell at me, but I'm getting the Edlebrocks. Thats even cheaper than rebuilding the Holleys I have(which I will keep and rebuild when I get the opportunity)
The Edelbrocks are "OK"...In fact I just put mine back yesterday on to have fast idle and choke (because it was pre-adjusted from the last time). After a year of sitting around, it ran perfectly (although a little slower compared to the predator).
You will never wring every last bit of power out of your car with one though....
If edelbrock would just copy the old Holley 4010, then they would have a fine street carb. I really wonder why Edelbrock hasn't made an effort to make a more "racy" carb?
BTW the AFBs are made in NC somewhere out near KV and KK....
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V8 Thumper
Gearhead Posts: 3467
From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 03-08-2003 11:52 AM
quote:
Originally posted by JoeD:
Alex,It is not as simple as you say. I installed mine upside-down the first time. My car went backwards. Joe
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL ------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9" All Blue Oval, no blue bottle
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/V8Thumper.html
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cobravenom71
Gearhead Posts: 746
From: Kissimee, Fl USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 03-08-2003 11:53 AM
Are you saying that the Edlebrock carbs are made in America? I have heard several times(maybe right here!) that they are made in Korea or something like that.------------------
1971 'J' code 429 Mach 1
1976 'Starsky & Hutch' Torino (460)
1973 Grande
1973 Mach
1973 Convertible
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n2oMike
Gearhead Posts: 1547
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 03-08-2003 12:12 PM
For racing, you can't beat the power and mechanical secondaries of the Holley Double Pumper.For the street, the Edelbrock will produce significantly better fuel economy, and provides great throttle responce than the Holley. Edelbrock carbs might be down a handful of horsepower from the double pumpers, but don't give up a thing to the 'cheapo' line Holley's carbs. (the generic 600 and 750 vacuum secondary, model #1850 and #3310) These Holleys don't even have replaceable (adjustable) jets in the secondaries. The Edelbrocks don't seem to flow what they are advertised, so choose the next higher size. They also use mechanical style secondaries, with an air valve that keeps the carb from bogging. I like this a LOT better than Holley's vacuum setup. You often can't even tell when they 'kick in'. I DO highly recommend Edelbrocks calibration kit. It comes with everything you'll need to easily tune the carb to your engine.... including a detailed, easy to follow instruction manual showing which changes to make, and how to do it. These changes are easy. All can be done externally without taking ANYTHING apart, except for the jets, which will require taking the top off. (no big deal) Good Luck! ------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220
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Mpcoluv
Gearhead Posts: 945
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 03-08-2003 12:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by cobravenom71:
Are you saying that the Edlebrock carbs are made in America? I have heard several times(maybe right here!) that they are made in Korea or something like that.
The Edelbrock carbs are made by Weber USA near Raleigh NC.
[This message has been edited by Mpcoluv (edited 03-08-2003).]
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 19704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 03-08-2003 04:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by n2oMike:
For racing, you can't beat the power and mechanical secondaries of the Holley Double Pumper.For the street, the Edelbrock [b]will produce significantly better fuel economy, and provides great throttle responce than the Holley. Edelbrock carbs might be down a handful of horsepower from the double pumpers, but don't give up a thing to the 'cheapo' line Holley's carbs. (the generic 600 and 750 vacuum secondary, model #1850 and #3310) These Holleys don't even have replaceable (adjustable) jets in the secondaries. The Edelbrocks don't seem to flow what they are advertised, so choose the next higher size. They also use mechanical style secondaries, with an air valve that keeps the carb from bogging. I like this a LOT better than Holley's vacuum setup. You often can't even tell when they 'kick in'. I DO highly recommend Edelbrocks calibration kit. It comes with everything you'll need to easily tune the carb to your engine.... including a detailed, easy to follow instruction manual showing which changes to make, and how to do it. These changes are easy. All can be done externally without taking ANYTHING apart, except for the jets, which will require taking the top off. (no big deal) Good Luck! [/B]
You probably voted for Jimmy too. ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 443
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 03-08-2003 04:38 PM
unless you don't tune your carb correct you should not be able to feel your secondaries kick in on a holley either.......
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Toronado3800
Gearhead Posts: 356
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 03-08-2003 06:22 PM
Ey, made in America. Gotta love that. Where are the Hollys (how do you pluralize that, Hollies?) made?
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itlbrnmoff
Gearhead Posts: 746
From: Indianapolis,IN.USA
Registered: Nov 2002
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posted 03-09-2003 12:51 AM
JoeD, I'm going to keep this carb in case I ever have a car I want to sell, but you can pick up a gazillion of them on Ebay...bidding starts at a paultry $5.00...
Or, you might find a "buy it now" price of $20.00, who knows? quote:
Originally posted by JoeD:
Itlburnemoff,If you're serious post you're e-mail and I'll contact you. Joe [This message has been edited by JoeD (edited 03-06-2003).]
------------------
Low Dollar 1983 Mustang GT W/T-tops...
306 4bbl. T-5 3.45 trac-loc...it'll burn 'em off
1988 Lincoln LSC
5.0 auto full power
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cobravenom71
Gearhead Posts: 746
From: Kissimee, Fl USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 03-12-2003 01:48 PM
Well, I got the reman Edlebrock carbs from the UPS guy a couple days ago, and have since installed one already. After installing it and setting the idle-mixture, and checking the calibration at all the different areas suggested in the 'owners manual', I must say that this car now runs better than it ever has before. To me, thats saying a lot, because it has always run excellent! There weren't really a lot of adjustments to be made, it was all pretty close right out of the box.
I know there are many who feel the Edlebrocks don't have the overall quality of a Holley, but I have never been very good at getting a Holley 'set' just right. Carburetors are an area where I'm not all that familiar with.
The Edlebrock carbs all come with a VERY detailed owners manual that explains a lot of basic, but needed info on carburetors in general. The manual also gives a very easy to follow and simple to perform series of 'checks' to ensure that the carb is tuned 'right' for each vehicle.
It took me less than an hour in total, starting with opening the box, removing the old carb, installing the new one and burning rubber down the street!
I can't imagine that it could have been any easier.
So far, it seems like a great carb for what I'm intending it for: Daily-driven street car, no drag-strip action. Maybe just a little 'Stop-Light Grand-Prix' every now and then. ------------------
1971 'J' code 429 Mach 1
1976 'Starsky & Hutch' Torino (460)
1973 Grande
1973 Mach
1973 Convertible
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JoeD1860
Journeyman Posts: 48
From: Arizona
Registered: Mar 2003
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posted 03-12-2003 06:01 PM
Venom,Don't worry about future problems. Run clean filters. If you ever do have a problem with starting, when the engine is hot, use a gasket that insulates the carb from the manifold.
Happy motoring. Joe
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JoeD1860
Journeyman Posts: 48
From: Arizona
Registered: Mar 2003
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posted 03-13-2003 08:57 AM
Venom,It looks like none of the Holley guys are going to chime-in on your success with your car.
Guess how many of them are also unable to get their cars "adjusted" properly but put up with them because it's a Holley?
Just let your kids enjoy their cars and don't worry about having to go help them when their car floods-out at an intersection.
I'd give up a couple horsepower for that peace of mind. Slow Joe [This message has been edited by JoeD1860 (edited 03-13-2003).]
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brockjoe
Gearhead Posts: 961
From: Sioux City, Iowa
Registered: Oct 99
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posted 03-13-2003 01:23 PM
quote:
Originally posted by JoeD1860:
Venom,Don't worry about future problems. Run clean filters. If you ever do have a problem with starting, when the engine is hot, use a gasket that insulates the carb from the manifold.
Happy motoring. Joe
i second that the main problems i have are related to underhood heat and fuel boiling over and running into the engine make for real hard starting, of course part of it cold be that i have 2 of'em next time holley's
------------------
Joe
71 Coupe
302 w/2x4
73 Coupe parts car.
Boycott NASCAR
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cobravenom71
Gearhead Posts: 746
From: Kissimee, Fl USA
Registered: Aug 2002
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posted 03-13-2003 02:02 PM
I just got through installing the second Edlebrock, and again this was very easy! I had to monkey around with the throttle and kick-down linkage a little bit, but it still took me less than an hour and a half to install and 'tune'.
I bought a cheap vaccuum gauge to help in the idle A/F, and that thing was just about perfect right out of the box!
This car as well as the other one has a very smooth power curve, with no flat-spots or hesitations like I had with the Holleys.Plus, I am really amazed at the throttle response, especially off idle.
I got so used to the flat-spots and 'bogs' on the Holleys that I didn't even realize they were there until I put on the Edlebrocks!
I'm not putting down the Holleys because I never really figured out the best way to tune them. But it can't be as easy as this!If I lose a few tenths in the quarter...so what?
Plus, the mileage on the first install is much better now! I have been through 2 tanks of gas(about 650 miles) and the mileage went up from about 14-15 to about 18-19. Seems like a good deal to me!------------------
1971 'J' code 429 Mach 1
1976 'Starsky & Hutch' Torino (460)
1973 Grande
1973 Mach
1973 Convertible
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JoeD1860
Journeyman Posts: 48
From: Arizona
Registered: Mar 2003
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posted 03-13-2003 02:37 PM
Venom,You and I are in the minority on this subject. To be honest you are NOT DOWN on power. Your seat-of-the-pants feel tells you that.
I belong to a car club here in Arizona. We have over 100 cars and I can count the number of Holleys on one hand. We drive these cars a lot and many members take multi-thousand mile trips each year.
I put 1000 miles a month on my Mustang.
We are not youngsters and most have been involved with cars for a long time. You couldn't give a Holley away at our meetings. We have all learned, just as you are, from experience. If it makes you feel better put a Holley sticker on your window.
I am going to race my 65 Mustang as soon as I get it ready. I was going to switch to a Holley but you have made me realize why I don't use one now. I'm getting one of the new Edelbrock carbs with adjutable secondaries instead. I'll be in the minority but I won't be messing around with my carb each week and I don't think I'll give anything away in the results either. Joe
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JCQuinn@work
Gearhead Posts: 422
From: Lakewood, CO, USA
Registered: Jun 2001
|
posted 03-13-2003 02:49 PM
Does anyone else get the feeling that JoeD1860 is trying to start an argument?John
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Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 11429
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
|
posted 03-13-2003 02:53 PM
Isn't it then that Holley carb is better for some and the Edelbrock carb is better for the others.I like my holley and yes my car runs better then it ever did with the AFB,and it gets better milage too.It starts better,runs more smooth.Maybe it's the right carb for me and the wrong one for you.
I know three others that would be glad to trade thier Edelbrocks for a holley.
So that does not mean that one carb fits all.
------------------
SCOOP
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 2.26 60'S
14.9 @ 90.86MPH 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8"3.40 TracLoc,Cragar SS,Black Suede. https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Fastymz.html
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cobravenom71
Gearhead Posts: 746
From: Kissimee, Fl USA
Registered: Aug 2002
|
posted 03-13-2003 03:24 PM
Joe,you are correct, I have NOT lost any power in the car. I have a TAZZO ( almost the same as a G-TECH pro)performance computer and it definatly picked up a lot in zero-sixty. Not so much in zero-thirty, but that is probably due to my 4-speed technique.
With the TAZZO, I can time a run from a rolling start at any speed and end it at any speed.
Before I changed the carb, I ran a lot of tests:0-60,0-30,standing 1/4,30-60 and 40-80.
The car runs significantly quicker in every area except 0-30.And gets better mileage.
Of course, this is a 'tuned' Edlebrock against a maybe 'untuned' Holley.
But I'm not a complete idiot: I DID have the Holley pretty well set. It never gave me a problem.
Oh well.....the debate rages on!------------------
1971 'J' code 429 Mach 1
1976 'Starsky & Hutch' Torino (460)
1973 Grande
1973 Mach
1973 Convertible
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 33371
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
|
posted 03-13-2003 03:30 PM
To me, the fact that Vic Edelbrock Jr runs a Holley on his own Boss 302 says it all! ------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150 Please remember our sponsors,
Mustangs Plus, NPD, Osborn Reproductions, MyFordPerformance.com, and FordRamAir.com
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65_289
Gearhead Posts: 761
From:
Registered: Jul 2001
|
posted 03-13-2003 04:05 PM
quote:
Originally posted by SteveLaRiviere:
To me, the fact that Vic Edelbrock Jr runs a Holley on his own Boss 302 says it all!
Exactly. If a guy won't even use his own products when every bit of horsepower matters, then that says a lot. Also notice the lack of a high-performance version of the Edelbrock carb. I don't see a "Carter Dominator" on top of any pro-stock machines. They don't make them for a reason.
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JoeD1860
Journeyman Posts: 48
From: Arizona
Registered: Mar 2003
|
posted 03-13-2003 04:53 PM
You guys are right. Venom should have been putting a drag-racing carb on his street cars. Just don't tell him while he is having so much fun driving it.
I'm not arguing with anyone. I wanted to help a guy get reliable performance from a Ford street car. Argue with his testament if you can. It speaks for itself.
Drive your Holley equipped cars around in the 115 degree Arizona heat and you may sing a different tune for a street car...not a drag racer.
And Scoop you said it all "One carb does not fit all." For street use an Edelbrock is better. For racing a Holley is better. You will find the rebel in either category using the less popular choice.Joe [This message has been edited by JoeD1860 (edited 03-13-2003).] [This message has been edited by JoeD1860 (edited 03-13-2003).]
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Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 11429
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
|
posted 03-13-2003 05:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by JoeD1860:
You guys are right. Venom should have been putting a drag-racing carb on his street cars. Just don't tell him while he is having so much fun driving it.
I'm not arguing with anyone. I wanted to help a guy get reliable performance from a Ford street car. Argue with his testament if you can. It speaks for itself.
Drive your Holley equipped cars around in the 115 degree Arizona heat and you may sing a different tune for a street car...not a drag racer.Joe [This message has been edited by JoeD1860 (edited 03-13-2003).]
Joe is your point that NO holley is as drivable as the Carter carb? I have driven my car in 105+ temps in traffic here in August,never once gave me fits. I don't get why some people can't be happy they have found the right carb and let others do the same. Joe I didn't not see your last edit before I posted this.But iagree with your point here,'." For street use an Edelbrock is better. For racing a Holley is better. You will find the rebel in either category using the less popular choice."
------------------
SCOOP
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 2.26 60'S
14.9 @ 90.86MPH 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8"3.40 TracLoc,Cragar SS,Black Suede. https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Fastymz.html
[This message has been edited by Fastymz (edited 03-13-2003).]
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 33371
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
|
posted 03-13-2003 05:30 PM
I don't think the Edelbrock is a bad carburetor, especially for the street. I can generally get any carb running pretty decent. Take the Q-jet, for example. People trash them all the time but they are actually a pretty good carburetor for the street, too. ------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150 Please remember our sponsors,
Mustangs Plus, NPD, Osborn Reproductions, MyFordPerformance.com, and FordRamAir.com
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Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 11429
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
|
posted 03-13-2003 05:46 PM
quote:
Originally posted by SteveLaRiviere:
Take the Q-jet, for example. People trash them all the time but they are actually a pretty good carburetor for the street, too.
They kick ass we had one my brothers 455 olds. ------------------
SCOOP
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 2.26 60'S
14.9 @ 90.86MPH 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8"3.40 TracLoc,Cragar SS,Black Suede. https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Fastymz.html
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70spoiler
Journeyman Posts: 92
From: Cottage Grove, MN
Registered: Mar 2001
|
posted 03-13-2003 06:42 PM
..my local engine builder says 'how did edleduck mess up a perfectly good carter?'
Alot of guys around here can't seem to get the big 3 out of the EBs...idle, mid, and top end power.
I don't have any problem with the holleys I run. I stab the pedal once, pull the choke about half way, hit the key and starts right up. Only adjustment made was on the dyno with the 4 corner idle a year and a half ago...------------------
70 cyclone spoiler 429CJ
99 F250SD 4X4 PSD
89 SHO 3.0L
65 F250 4X4 240 4sp
70 F250 crewcab 360 4sp
94 Firebird Formula V8(LT1)
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indyphil
Gearhead Posts: 773
From: Lafayette, IN, USA
Registered: Jul 2002
|
posted 03-13-2003 09:17 PM
I have an eledbrock on my 289, its a 600CFM, it ran a lot better than the old 2 barrel, although some may be due to the performer manifold as well. The engine is basically stock.Anyway My secondaries dont seem to open early enough (probably the carb is a little big for my mild motor), and the carb does look pretty simple and cheap. Its great because I never mess with it, but im sure that someday I will probably upgrade the carb when I build the motor up a little wilder. I wonder how the demons stack up,
can anyone shed any light on their heritage/performance?
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V8 Thumper
Gearhead Posts: 3467
From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001
|
posted 03-13-2003 09:23 PM
Just going by 'rumor', but I've heard that Demon carbs had alot of quality issues early on. I'd think those problems would have been addressed by now.I too have run Edelbrock carbs on tame street motors with good results. My stroker has a 780 cfm Holley sittin' pretty on top  ------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9" All Blue Oval, no blue bottle
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/V8Thumper.html
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cobravenom71
Gearhead Posts: 746
From: Kissimee, Fl USA
Registered: Aug 2002
|
posted 03-13-2003 11:36 PM
I guess I'm just too ignorant to realize that even though the car idles better, acclerates faster, is quicker through the 1/4 ( 14.3 vs. 14.7), and gets better gas mileage( 14 mpg vs. 17 mpg) that I was better off with the gas-hog, big bog Holley.
Personally, I don't care what brand the carb is. I just like the ease of installation, the performance (so far) and the price.
Oh yeah, the price... To replace the 2 Holleys I had (4160, elec choke, vacuuum secon.)was $266 each. The Edlebrocks were $170 each. Thats a savings of $192!
Since these are for my kids' cars, I actually prefer the simplicity and all-around street driveability they offer over the Holleys. For 17 year old teenage girls, these cars are plenty fast enough.------------------
1971 'J' code 429 Mach 1
1976 'Starsky & Hutch' Torino (460)
1973 Grande
1973 Mach
1973 Convertible
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 19704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
|
posted 03-13-2003 11:45 PM
Carter, Edelbrock, Weber, whatever you want to call them are all simple entry level performance carbs. That's all. Some people just don't have the knack, talant, or desire to choose the correct Holley and then tune it for maximum performance. Those folks SHOULD stick with the Carter carbs.
It would save some UB space by elimination so many trouble shooting questions.
Same old story, if you want to go fast use a Holley, if you just want to go then a Carter is a good choice. ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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cobravenom71
Gearhead Posts: 746
From: Kissimee, Fl USA
Registered: Aug 2002
|
posted 03-13-2003 11:57 PM
I must have tuned the 'entry level' carb wrong, because it is faster than the 'fast' Holley.
On a side note, if the Holleys are truly faster than the Edlebrocks when they are tuned properly, how is it that Edlebrock advertises that the EPS Performer (750 CFM) produces a minimum of 22 H.P. and 26 Lbs/ft torque over a comparable Holley (#4150-750 CFM)???
A big company like Edlebrock would not probably make such a blatant claim unless they had some testing to back it up. Which they do. Why is it that Holley has no 'comparo' tests against competing brands? Just curious.------------------
1971 'J' code 429 Mach 1
1976 'Starsky & Hutch' Torino (460)
1973 Grande
1973 Mach
1973 Convertible
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 19704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
|
posted 03-14-2003 12:08 AM
quote:
Originally posted by cobravenom71:
I must have tuned the 'entry level' carb wrong, because it is faster than the 'fast' Holley.
On a side note, if the Holleys are truly faster than the Edlebrocks when they are tuned properly, how is it that Edlebrock advertises that the EPS Performer (750 CFM) produces a minimum of 22 H.P. and 26 Lbs/ft torque over a comparable Holley (#4150-750 CFM)???
A big company like Edlebrock would not probably make such a blatant claim unless they had some testing to back it up. Which they do. Why is it that Holley has no 'comparo' tests against competing brands? Just curious.
You read too much! 
I hope that you don't believe all the sales claims and propoganda that you read.
If so have I got a deal for you! Do you remember a guy named Clinton who promised if elected that he would see to it that the USA had a national health care plan in effect before he left office? Hmmm? Next time you go to the track see just how many fast cars have Carter/Edelbrock on them?
Like NONE!!!!!! ZERO, NADA, NOBODY HOME! Next time you watch a Nascar event and the have the hoods up, see how many of them have Carter/Edelbrocks? LOL Same story.
I'm ending my portion of this thread. I know what I know from practical experiance on hundreds, no maybe thousands of cars.
One last thing I will say, I GUARANTEE that if I put a Holley on YOUR car CV, that it WILL be quicker, faster, and run smoother. As a matter of fact, probably anyone of 50 of our racing forum members and participants can do it with ease.
Forget the claims and BS propagando muy friend. Holley needs no claims, they have the performance records to back their performance up, not some bogus comparison claims. That is why they are the #1 performance carb suppier in the world by over 100 to one!
------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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cobravenom71
Gearhead Posts: 746
From: Kissimee, Fl USA
Registered: Aug 2002
|
posted 03-14-2003 12:11 AM
OK, the debate has finally been settled once and for all... My daughter Chelsea (it's her car) has made the determination that the Edlebrock is 'shiny and pretty', not like that junky old brown looking Holley.
I told her that a well-tuned Holley is a little faster, and she said "Faster? Who cares?The car already goes like a million miles an hour now!"( or something like that).
She says it looks better and that is more important to her than a "couple of tenths, whatever that is."
Of course, I still have the Holley on my 429 Cobra-Jet and it runs great! But I'm not the one who tuned it.------------------
1971 'J' code 429 Mach 1
1976 'Starsky & Hutch' Torino (460)
1973 Grande
1973 Mach
1973 Convertible
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 19704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
|
posted 03-14-2003 12:14 AM
LOL, there ya go! Good answer.
I have had several choices made for me over the years in similar fashion. ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
IP: Logged |
cobravenom71
Gearhead Posts: 746
From: Kissimee, Fl USA
Registered: Aug 2002
|
posted 03-14-2003 12:33 AM
As far as Clinton's promises, I didn't know that he made any claims about carburetors.( The Clinton comparison is specious and has no bearing on anything we are discussing.)
I may not have made it clear, but none of my cars have numbers painted on the doors, and I'm almost certain...no, make that positive that I will never drive one of my cars on any NASCAR track against any NASCAR spec car. I think I might be down a little on power compared to them, even if I did have a properly tuned Holley on them.
What I can't seem to understand is why you will readily admit that the Edlebrocks are a good 'street' carb, but somehow it would be better to put a 'race' carb(Holley) on my street cars?
This is my first experience with Edlebrock carbs, but I can't complain about the experience so far...From the price to opening the boxes and installing them to driving them a few hundred miles so far. It has been a 'cake walk'.
OK, in all seriousness...I GET IT!! The Holleys are a better high-performance carb that will when tuned properly, ultimately deliver more than an Edlebrock.
That last bit of performance has a very small value to me when compared to the lower price, and ease of installation and operation, and the better overall mileage. These cars are driven mostly at sedate city-street speeds( at least 90% of the time), so the advantages that a Holley offers are really of no advantage to me.
As far as misleading advertising, no company is allowed to mention any other company's specific product by brand name in a direct comparison and claim that thier product has any specific advantage or is superior over any other company's product unless that claim can be legally verified. Otherwise, the 'damaged' company would be able to sue and collect 'damages' from the company that made the false claim. You can be sure that if Edlebrock's claims about producing more power and torque were bogus, Holley (or Colt industries)would have had Edlebrock in court immediatley. Of course, if it is true, then there would be no basis for Holley to sue. ------------------
1971 'J' code 429 Mach 1
1976 'Starsky & Hutch' Torino (460)
1973 Grande
1973 Mach
1973 Convertible
IP: Logged |
itlbrnmoff
Gearhead Posts: 746
From: Indianapolis,IN.USA
Registered: Nov 2002
|
posted 03-14-2003 02:14 AM
Wow  Sorry, it ain't over 'til it's over...
I think Cobravenom is comparing JCC's to Holley vacuum secondary carbs, which could make the JCC a more desirable piece to run.
Sure the JCC is a pretty carb, and a bolt on and go product,(I miss the beauty of the JCC since I removed it and declared it out of service),But I don't think there's any comparison to a Holley Double Pumper carb.
I've had 3 carbs on my 306 so far, and here's the list...
Factory Motorcraft holley (same as #1850 vacuum secondary)...never worked right.
Edelbrock #1411 750cfm pretty carb...finally worked after extensive tuning and de-tuning with 2 different tuning kits (600cfm & 750cfm, 1 was free, the other was $35.)
Used Holley #4777-3 650dp $125, mechanical ability and desire to wrench, $35 rebuild kit, total investment, priceless!
My engine finally runs better and faster and more responsive than it ever has before!!
Instant throttle response, no coughing or stumble or bogging, no more obcessive need to try and optimize A/F ratio for power.
I haven't even tuned this carb yet, but I'm not afraid to. This, from a factory jetted Holley DP 67/73 jets, no tuning, no hassle.
just flat out, snap your neck (if I had traction) POWER!!
I want to take this opportunity to again thank all the Holley runners and pushers.
But again, it's all personal preference and level of ability that determines what you end up with.
There are no losers here, just winners. ------------------
Low Dollar 1983 Mustang GT W/T-tops...
306 4bbl. T-5 3.45 trac-loc...it'll burn 'em off
1988 Lincoln LSC
5.0 auto full power
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 33371
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
|
posted 03-14-2003 08:03 AM
quote:
Originally posted by cobravenom71:
a.} As far as Clinton's promises, I didn't know that he made any claims about carburetors...b.} I may not have made it clear, but none of my cars have numbers painted on the doors, and I'm almost certain...no, make that positive that I will never drive one of my cars on any NASCAR track against any NASCAR spec car... c.} What I can't seem to understand is why you will readily admit that the Edlebrocks are a good 'street' carb, but somehow it would be better to put a 'race' carb(Holley) on my street cars?
a.} Carter was the one with the carburetors. b.} Note that you are in the Racing forum. So it's like you've wandered into a bar trying to tout the benefits of temperance. Everyone is welcome here, but remember these guys focus on horsepower and ETs, not MPG and ease of installation. c.} You made a fine choice. Sometimes a simple 'plug and play' part is a blessing. Not everyone wants to spend a lot of time tuning a carb. Go forth and cruise happily. ------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150 Please remember our sponsors,
Mustangs Plus, NPD, Osborn Reproductions, MyFordPerformance.com, and FordRamAir.com
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n2oMike
Gearhead Posts: 1547
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001
|
posted 03-14-2003 08:11 AM
Well, here's a re-post of mine from way up this list. Seems to pretty much sum up what everyone has said...For racing, you can't beat the power and mechanical secondaries of the Holley Double Pumper. For the street, the Edelbrock will produce significantly better fuel economy, and provides great throttle responce than the Holley. Edelbrock carbs might be down a handful of horsepower from the double pumpers, but don't give up a thing to the 'cheapo' line Holley's carbs. (the generic 600 and 750 vacuum secondary, model #1850 and #3310) These Holleys don't even have replaceable (adjustable) jets in the secondaries. The Edelbrocks don't seem to flow what they are advertised, so choose the next higher size. They also use mechanical style secondaries, with an air valve that keeps the carb from bogging. I like this a LOT better than Holley's vacuum setup. I DO highly recommend Edelbrocks calibration kit. It comes with everything you'll need to easily tune the carb to your engine.... including a detailed, easy to follow instruction manual showing which changes to make, and how to do it. These changes are easy. All can be done externally without taking ANYTHING apart, except for the jets, which will require taking the top off. (no big deal) Good Luck! ------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220
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cobravenom71
Gearhead Posts: 746
From: Kissimee, Fl USA
Registered: Aug 2002
|
posted 03-14-2003 08:12 AM
fair enough.
IP: Logged |
Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 19704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
|
posted 03-14-2003 11:19 AM
I will agree with you on one thing for certain.
The Edelbrock/Carter box is easier to open.
Kinda sets the tome for the rest of the program. Plain, easy, and simple.
------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
IP: Logged |
Fstln69
Gearhead Posts: 325
From: Westmont,il
Registered: Jan 2003
|
posted 03-14-2003 11:32 AM
last time i tryed to install one i put it on sideways.....i can't tell the front from the back or side..great ashtray though ------------------
69 fairlane 351w 12.94@103mph before M&M.. after??
always in search of more HP and faster ET'S Fstln69 Pics Page
IP: Logged |
JoeD1860
Journeyman Posts: 48
From: Arizona
Registered: Mar 2003
|
posted 03-14-2003 11:45 AM
Drag racers are a lot like motorcycle racers. I don't know if that is a compliment but it is a fact. Too many decibels over toooooo long a time.
This thread has totally depressed me. I'm going to install a lawn sprinkler on my intake and motor on.Slow Joe
IP: Logged |
Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 11429
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
|
posted 03-14-2003 11:57 AM
I can't believe this is still going on,and on. CV,I love the statement from your daughter. If a carb works for them run it,don't work so hard to get others to see it your way.It's a good thing to have a carb that makes your car run better.So enjoy the ride,lifes to short to worry about who's and wrong. ------------------
SCOOP
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 2.26 60'S
14.9 @ 90.86MPH 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8"3.40 TracLoc,Cragar SS,Black Suede. https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Fastymz.html
IP: Logged |
SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 33371
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
|
posted 03-14-2003 12:01 PM
Joe, don't let it depress you. It's just a matter of matching the part to the application. It's like tools. If you're driving in brads, you don't use a sledgehammer and if you're driving in railroad spikes, you don't use a finishing hammer. ------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150 Please remember our sponsors,
Mustangs Plus, NPD, Osborn Reproductions, MyFordPerformance.com, and FordRamAir.com
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cobravenom71
Gearhead Posts: 746
From: Kissimee, Fl USA
Registered: Aug 2002
|
posted 03-14-2003 12:44 PM
Actually, I see it a little differently: Often there are several different tools that are all designed to do basically the same thing.
A carburetor for a vehicle has a much more varied 'job description' than the sledgehammer's job of driving in spikes. It must deliver several different forms of performance for a myriad of vehicles and driving conditions. This clearly demonstrates that there cannot be one carburetor that is better than all others under all operating circumstances and under all driving conditions, for all vehicles.
It seems to me that the 'Holley' guys are quite defensive when it comes to thier carbs! Why so much 'venom'?
For some reason, on this thread, when a serious and honest question about the Edlebrock vs. Holley was asked, the answer was an opinion, not fact. Or, when the facts are clearly in favor of the Edlebrock, then some 'jokey' comment or insult to the Edlebrock and anyone who would consider using them was the result.
Funny thing is, no one on this thread ever claimed anything like 'peanut', or 'Jimmy Carter carb' or any insult like that when referring to the Holley. All the derision seems to have come from the Holley camp. Why so defensive?
Personally, I do believe that the Holleys are a better performance carb over the Edlebrock, but that doesn't mean that I think the Edlebrock is junk, or any of the other negative comments made about them. They both seem to function as they were intended to.
If you guy's are this defensive in a Holley vs. Edlebrock debate, I hesitate to tell you that the car in question that has recieved this Edlebrock is not a classic Mustang, but one of Mr. Larry Shinoda's OTHER classic creations.
I'll probably get letter-bombs now... ------------------
1971 'J' code 429 Mach 1
1976 'Starsky & Hutch' Torino (460)
1973 Grande
1973 Mach
1973 Convertible
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 19704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
|
posted 03-14-2003 12:52 PM
Facts? You are nuts!
I give up!------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 33371
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
|
posted 03-14-2003 12:56 PM
I guess 30+ years of working on cars counts for nothing?Enjoy whatever you want to bolt on. ------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150 Please remember our sponsors,
Mustangs Plus, NPD, Osborn Reproductions, MyFordPerformance.com, and FordRamAir.com
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JoeD1860
Journeyman Posts: 48
From: Arizona
Registered: Mar 2003
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posted 03-14-2003 01:23 PM
Steve,I'm not depressed it was in jest.
This thread reminds me of the Energizer Bunny.
The whole thing is silly. I have Edelbrock's new catalog and even they say "Street Performance" when talking about their carbs. They make NO claims about racing use of their carbs.
I know this is a racing forum but Venom had a street situation and he addressed that.
I will never tell any racer to use an Edelbrock. First off...I have not raced and secondly...Holley is a proven winner in that venue.
I know I'll use a Holley on my Mustang, the carb Alex recommended in another post.
I still like the lawn sprinkler idea but I don't own one because I don't have any grass! Slow Joe
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 33371
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
|
posted 03-14-2003 01:30 PM
Good, I just hope we all can stay friends.By the way, GM used your lawn sprinkler idea many years ago. They called it the TBI. ------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150 Please remember our sponsors,
Mustangs Plus, NPD, Osborn Reproductions, MyFordPerformance.com, and FordRamAir.com
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JCQuinn@work
Gearhead Posts: 422
From: Lakewood, CO, USA
Registered: Jun 2001
|
posted 03-14-2003 01:49 PM
I guess talking about all the problems with holleys for street use does not constitute bashing them. Most of us here do not experience these problems and all the advice we give is based on our personal experience. So no wonder we like the Ford designed Holley. (I seem to remember the double pumpers derived from a contract Ford gave to Holley for development of a carburetor for the LeMans project of the 60's) John What was Shinoda's other design. I know he worked for GM but I don't know what he designed.
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Tea'sGrabber
Gearhead Posts: 142
From: Seattle, Wash.
Registered: Feb 2003
|
posted 03-14-2003 02:10 PM
Let it GO!!!! LOL... ------------------
Todd 71 Mav Grabber All orig 306 cu.in. Cast Iron heads. Carillo Rods.Best et. 10.71 @ 124 thru the mufflers.
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 33371
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
|
posted 03-14-2003 02:12 PM
quote:
Originally posted by JCQuinn@work:
What was Shinoda's other design. I know he worked for GM but I don't know what he designed.
Wasn't the '63 Corvette one of them? ------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150 Please remember our sponsors,
Mustangs Plus, NPD, Osborn Reproductions, MyFordPerformance.com, and FordRamAir.com
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Kellxr7
Gearhead Posts: 129
From: Medstead SK Canada
Registered: Mar 2003
|
posted 03-14-2003 02:31 PM
I dont know if this was posted already (too lazy to read it all), BUt I noticed on my Edelbrock Carb box, "nascar approved" Nascar doesnt use Edelbrock carbs do they? I wouldnt think a little edelbroack carb would be near enough sufficient for those 700 horsepower engines, What their biggest cfm that they (edelbrock) make anyway ,750? Or is the "nascar approved" sticker just for advertising? Curious, Kel
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 33371
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
|
posted 03-14-2003 02:33 PM
Edelbrock gave them a pile of money and NASCAR 'approves' of that sort of thing. ------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150 Please remember our sponsors,
Mustangs Plus, NPD, Osborn Reproductions, MyFordPerformance.com, and FordRamAir.com
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 19704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
|
posted 03-14-2003 02:39 PM
Trojan brand gave me a pile of condoms for free so I endoresed them even though I never use any. ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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Red65
Journeyman Posts: 82
From: Northglenn, CO, USA
Registered: Jul 2002
|
posted 03-14-2003 04:19 PM
So, if we're just talking street carbs (vacuum secondaries), what order would you rank the following carbs based on user-friendliness and performance:Edelbrock Performer
Autolite 4100
Holley Street Avenger And can a Street Avenger be retro-fitted to a double-pumper, since it's based on the 4150? [This message has been edited by Red65 (edited 03-14-2003).]
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Red65
Journeyman Posts: 82
From: Northglenn, CO, USA
Registered: Jul 2002
|
posted 03-14-2003 04:34 PM
Looks like Larry Shinoda did the '63 'vette and Z28 Camaro. http://www.streetclassics.com/mustangs/boss_history.htm "Five years later, noted automobile designer, the late Larry Shinoda (Z28 Camaro, '63 Corvette Stingray, fame), introduced the original Boss 302 and Boss 429 Mustangs. Bursting onto the racing scene in 1969'-70', they were the car to beat. Winning both NHRA drag racing events and SCCA Trans-Am championships, the Boss Mustangs endeared themselves to both racers and car enthusiasts alike."
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JCQuinn@work
Gearhead Posts: 422
From: Lakewood, CO, USA
Registered: Jun 2001
|
posted 03-14-2003 05:45 PM
I just can't pass up an opportunity for a good insult. Sorry CobraVenom, don't take it personally but the Carter carb is probably right at home on Chevys, they won't go that fast even with a Holly.John You can hit me later, then buy me a beer.
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 33371
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
|
posted 03-14-2003 05:51 PM
Here's a beer for each of you: [] []Now bolt on a Solex and call it done. ------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150 Please remember our sponsors,
Mustangs Plus, NPD, Osborn Reproductions, MyFordPerformance.com, and FordRamAir.com
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Kellxr7
Gearhead Posts: 129
From: Medstead SK Canada
Registered: Mar 2003
|
posted 03-14-2003 05:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
Trojan brand gave me a pile of condoms for free so I endoresed them even though I never use any.
Hahaha gotcha
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JoeD
Journeyman Posts: 50
From:
Registered: Feb 2003
|
posted 03-14-2003 07:47 PM
Alex,How do you reach you to see what you sell and buy parts?
I called three times and got some off-the-wall answering service and never an answer?
You are in the Chi-town area right? Is the mob looking for you or something? Slow Joe
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n2oMike
Gearhead Posts: 1547
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001
|
posted 03-14-2003 08:05 PM
Joe Sherman used a 750 Edelbrock to make 400hp with a 302 and ported 289 heads. The cam was a hydraulic Isky Mega Cam measuring around 230/230 @ 0.050" with a 108 lobe seperation. It had flat-top rebuilder pistons installed backwards and otherwise stock internals. It didn't even have roller rockers. It was written up as a 'budget' 302 buildup.I'll take an Edelbrock any day over a 600 vacuum (#1850) Holley. They work okay, but the Edelbrock is just better. For racing and max power the Edelbrock won't usually make the power of a double pumper... Unless you can tune an engine like Joe Sherman. My car has a double pumper. (I'm not too worried about fuel mileage and low-end throttle response) Good Luck! ------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220
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cobravenom71
Gearhead Posts: 746
From: Kissimee, Fl USA
Registered: Aug 2002
|
posted 03-14-2003 09:40 PM
OK,OK... The car inquestion that started this all is a Z-28.(Ever wonder why the Z-28 and the BOSS 302 were so very similar to one another? Larry Shinoda designed both of them!).
My Z has a ZZ4+ crate motor ( Balanced, rollers, 350 flywheel horses), an M-22 4-speed and a 3.73 12 bolt 'posi'. It is all stock except for the engine and exhaust. No cat converters or EGR any more.
The stock motor was the 'LM-1' truck 350 with a cast iron intake w/ quadrajet. Factory rated at 160 horses. Pretty crappy.
The crate motor really woke this thing up. The Holley I had on it had been handed down to it from a couple of my other cars, and it finally just 'gave up the ghost'. When I chose to replace it, this is what started all the Holley vs. Edlebrock stuff.
Budget and ease of operation/ installation were probably 95% of my concerns with this since this is basically my daughter Chelsea's driver. There ain't no way I would call this car slow! It will run with any comparably cubed and equipped Ford or Chrysler. Chelsea's twin sister Ashley drives a 78 Trans-Am with a 1972 455 HO with a 4-speed, and the Z will tromp it easily.
Even though it's not a popular attitude around here, I am a fan of any nice car, regardless of make or model. In fact I've got my eye on a real nice 70 Challenger convertible,383 w/ 727, but the guy wants big money which I don't think I can swing right now. Maybe if he can hold out for a few months....
My first car and my first FAVORITE car has and always will be a Mustang, but I like 'em all. When me and the kids and the wife (67 Riviera) all go to a cruise night or a show with all our cars, it adds a lot of variety to the whole thing.
I want to remain friendly on this forum, so I am not going to engage in any other bashing or trading barbs on this topic, so basically I guess I'm saying I'm throwing in the towel....
Now, if you want to argue about some OTHER topic....------------------
1971 'J' code 429 Mach 1
1976 'Starsky & Hutch' Torino (460)
1973 Grande
1973 Mach
1973 Convertible
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 19704
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
|
posted 03-14-2003 10:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by JoeD:
Alex,How do you reach you to see what you sell and buy parts?
I called three times and got some off-the-wall answering service and never an answer?
You are in the Chi-town area right? Is the mob looking for you or something? Slow Joe
708-447-4912. I am all alone and at times I do not interrupt a customer to answer another incoming call.
Hint......the answering service is there for a reason. It records messages.
I call EVERYONE back.
There is of course always e-mail, but that would be too easy. I don't have any issues with the mob, but one of my part time jobs does get me in some hot water occasionally with an outfit by the name of SPECTER.
Dum da da da dum
dum dum,
dum da da da dum dum
da ta ta ta tat tat tat
------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
IP: Logged |
JCQuinn@work
Gearhead Posts: 422
From: Lakewood, CO, USA
Registered: Jun 2001
|
posted 03-15-2003 12:24 AM
CobraVenom1, since Steve bought each of us a beer I will confess that I actually like Z28 Camaro's. In fact I have owned many Fords, a couple of Chevys and one Mopar. I respect your feelings that your car will run with anybodies street car, that is what started drag racing. I have spent many hours trading barbs about who has a fast car with many of my friends and if they were all the same make it would not be nearly as much fun.Back in the 60's we had an AHRA track just north of Denver. Their rule book broke the cars down by wheel base, type of carburetor, and who knows what else. The divisions were broken down so specificaally that all of the cars in my class were other mustangs. Even though I usually won,it was not nearly as much fun racing there as it was at the NHRA track where I got clobbered every time by one of those infamous hydramatic fuel injected 57 Chevy sedan deliveries. What made it fun was the challenge of beating that guy. So if I offended you, I apologize. All statements putting down another car are made in jest. I actually treasure the competition. John
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cobravenom71
Gearhead Posts: 746
From: Kissimee, Fl USA
Registered: Aug 2002
|
posted 03-15-2003 09:33 AM
SPECTER? Do you maybe mean SPECTRE?
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Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 11429
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
|
posted 03-15-2003 12:56 PM
quote:
Originally posted by cobravenom71:
OK,OK... The car inquestion that started this all is a Z-28.(Ever wonder why the Z-28 and the BOSS 302 were so very similar to one another? Larry Shinoda designed both of them!). Now, if you want to argue about some OTHER topic....
I'm I the only one who does think the Boss302 and the Z28 look alike.I've heard that statement many times before.I just don't see it,BY far the Boss 302 is a better looking car.And to me the two don't look any more alike then a MG and a AC cobra. I like all kinds of cars too,and I'm sure most others do too.But I've never had a thing for Z28's now my wife she loves the 69 Z28,so to each thier own. Now there are some mopars I'd have in my garage. After I've it was filled with Fords.
------------------
SCOOP
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 2.26 60'S
14.9 @ 90.86MPH 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8"3.40 TracLoc,Cragar SS,Black Suede. https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Fastymz.html
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CometGT1974
Gearhead Posts: 181
From: Asheville, NC USA
Registered: Jan 2002
|
posted 03-16-2003 10:28 AM
All this discussion and nobody has mentioned the Demon Carburetors by Barry Grant!! Maybe because it's just a fancy holley!!!!
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n2oMike
Gearhead Posts: 1547
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001
|
posted 03-16-2003 10:54 AM
I purchased a 750 Speed Demon for my car... to replace the slightly modified 650 DP that was on it. The car ran IDENTICAL times in the 1/4 mile! It needed jetted up around five sizes from what it came with, which was weird. The idle was a little cleaner, but I wasn't really all that impressed... but for less than $400, I couldn't really complain. For racing, I think the Holley HP950 is about the most versatile carb out there. p.s. This thread is getting pretty long... I feel for those poor souls that are still using a dial-up connection! Cable sure is nice. Good Luck! ------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220
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