So I just cruised it back home with it's tail stuck between it legs and the whole time I was worrying about all the wear that I put on it by missing those gears.

I'm seriously considering tossing the 4 spd and getting a C-4!

quote:

---

Originally posted by bluestreek:
I'm seriously considering tossing the 4 spd and getting a C-4!

---

Do it and don't look back! It'll be quicker too.

SteveW

p.s. The gear bangers will be along soon to encourage you to stick with the dinosaur tranny, but listen to the left side of your brain and not the right.
No missed shifts, lightning quick shifts, torque multiplying torque convertor, what more could a guy ask for.

SteveW

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve'66:
Do it and don't look back! It'll be quicker too.

SteveW

p.s. The gear bangers will be along soon to encourage you to stick with the dinosaur tranny, but listen to the left side of your brain and not the right.
No missed shifts, lightning quick shifts, torque multiplying torque convertor, what more could a guy ask for.

SteveW

---

10-4!
Been there done that!

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

I have a new FMS King Cobra diaphragm clutch system and it shifted great until I put the peddle to the metal, then the location of everything seemed to change when the motor torqued up good. I can't even get it to down shift into 2nd now. I think I bent a shift rod or someting when I was trying to force it into 2nd. Should I strap the motor down and try readjusting everything? I never had these stupid problems when I ran the 6200 rpm 289 and granny shifting just won't hack it on the track!! I would like to get a few decent baseline runs with the manual tranny before going over to the other side.

quote:

---

Originally posted by cobravenom71:
There is no denying that a well-built auto-trans is much quicker and more consistent than a stick.

---

Autotragic transmissions suck up more power than a real gear box. Therefore, more power gets to the rear tires with a manual tranny. This is the main reason about any factory car off the showroom is significantly quicker with the stick.

When a car is modified to make big power, the launch starts to become a problem... and autotragic transmissioned vehicles are WAY easier to science-out on the launch pad. The clutch is the source of many headaches and broken parts... but when figured out stickshifts ARE faster. Why do you think cars with real gear boxes get weight penalties in those 'heads-up' NMCA and Mustang races?

Diaphragm clutches aren't exactly ideal for high rpm use. You'll want a Long style (3-finger) setup... preferably an adjustable sintered iron unit for maximum track success. Of course a set of slicks won't hurt anything either...

Clutch equipped STREET cars are also more streetable. To make a high strung 289-302 launch at the track (without the help of nitrous) an extremely loose 8" converter is required. These aren't very practical for regular street duty.

Also, the fun factor of a stickshift just CANNOT be equalled by the ole' slushbox. I've driven both, and for cars that run the same et's, stickshifts are WAY more fun. With an automatic, (if you are a rebel and shift it yourself ) you simply depress the gas pedal and steer, as you push forward on the gearshift twice as you go down the track. Life is MUCH more exciting with the stickshift!

Yes, autotragics are more consistent.
Yes, autotragics are easier to drive.
Yes, you can buy enough gizmos to make an automatic car practically drive itself down the track.

BUT 99% OF THEM ARE BORING!!!

True of False, people perk up when the stickshift cars come to the lanes???

You'll definitely want to strap the driver's side of the engine down and re-adjust the clutch linkage. You also don't want to run too heavy of a gear oil in the trans. That stuff doesn't warm up that fast, and when thick, it won't allow the trans to shift very quickly. I use synthetic.

If your goal is to have a consistent, but boring car... install an automatic, along with all the goodies to make it go down the track all by itself. If you want a FUN street car that can also hold it's own at the track, keep the stick!

Install a set of slicks, strap the engine down, re-adjust the shifter linkage (you won't bend the shift forks on a toploader), take car of the clutch... and have FUN! I don't remember the exact specifics of your cam, but I don't remember it being so large as to require a 7500 rpm shift point. Try pulling the gears at around 6800 rpm. It will probably be faster AND easier to shift.

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

quote:

---

Originally posted by n2oMike:
...This is the main reason about any factory car off the showroom is significantly quicker with the stick.

---

I bet it's because the stock auto usually shifts before the optimal point in the power band and the stock converter isn't matched for optimum launching. Give the driver the option of when to shift, and give a properly matched converter, and I bet the difference will be quite a bit less.

A look at the NHRA S/S records revealed the following;

SS/A 8.72 (manual)
SS/AA 8.64 (automatic)

SS/E 9.58 (manual)
SS/EA 9.52 (automatic)

SS/J 10.30 (manual)
SS/JA 10.02 (automatic)

SS/O 11.49 (manual)
SS/OA 11.43 (automatic)

SS/P 12.30 (manual)
SS/PA 11.68 (automatic)

The average of all SS manual classes is 10.102 seconds.

The average of all SS automatic classes is 10.195.

So the answer is MAYBE, SOMETIMES But not by much.

SteveW

quote:

---

Originally posted by Trailer_Trash:
you could spend $500 making your auto as fast as a manual. think about how much dough those guys put into their autos to make it go a few hundredths faster than a manual. plus, the fun-factor overrules just about anything.

---

You could also spend $500+ in a manual to make it hold up and shift correctly with all the power you may have. Think about how much dough those guys put into their manuals to make it keep up with the power. And like N20Mike says, there are many variables in making a perfect manual.

Respectively, the point i'm trying to make here is, your statement is not really valid. $$$ is to be spent either way you go when HP readings go up, as is the case with BLUESTREEK.

Erik

------------------
1966 Ford Mustang 2+2
Mine - Restomod in Progress

1966 Ford Mustang Coupe
Dad's - Original Unrestored

quote:

---

Originally posted by Trailer_Trash:
you could spend $500 making your auto as fast as a manual. think about how much dough those guys put into their autos to make it go a few hundredths faster than a manual. plus, the fun-factor overrules just about anything.

---

Do you really think the SuperStock manual tranny guys are not using every trick in the book for their transmissions, clutches, and shifters?

The comparisons between superstock classes represents the best of the best! The best manual trannys, the best drivers, the best clutches, against the best automatics.

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve'66:
Is the manual tranny really quicker?

A look at the NHRA S/S records revealed the following;

---

I wonder how the mph numbers compare. This would be a more valid indicator of how much power is reaching the rear wheels.

Erik

------------------
1966 Ford Mustang 2+2
Mine - Restomod in Progress

quote:

---

Originally posted by Trailer_Trash:
[Blets just try to solve Bluestreek's problem, not get him to buy an auto. [/B]

---

I think it would be a bad decision based on the facts given, even from N20Mike.

Bluestreek, my vote is for C4 race from JPT or Dynamic. None better in my opinion.

Erik

------------------
1966 Ford Mustang 2+2
Mine - Restomod in Progress

Stickshifts are more fun. Automatics are more efficient in bracket racing. I believe most of us would agree with this. The 'fun factor' is the most important to me. I like being the 'rebel gear banger' out there. Others like a setup that is more efficient at going rounds in the brackets.

To me, small tired nitroused 4-speeds are about as wild and crazy as they come. They pretty much spell 'excitement'!

The ultimate bracketeer will have more tire than engine, and do the exact same boring thing over and over. Some people like being competitive like that. It wins money and championships. For those that want to chase season titles (and don't have the time or money to invest into a 'heads-up' campaign) it's their only outlet.

I'm just the 'occasional' drag racer. I spend the majority of my hotrod time on the street, and only make it to the track a couple times a year.

To each his own.

Mike

I wasn't disagreeing with you. I was totally agreeing with what you stated above. No doubt. I was merely stating that with all the facts that you described above, it would save time to go with a auto "to get it over with" and go race. I have no doubt in my mind that what you said is true and correct in regards to building the RIGHT manual trans. But it takes time and money to BUILD it RIGHT.

I correct myself in my statement in saying it would be a "bad decision". It would imo, be a better choice for consistency and "getting it over with".

Erik

------------------
1966 Ford Mustang 2+2
Mine - Restomod in Progress

I know my car would be faster with an auto, I have had reliability problems with my manual tranny. But I don't care. A stick is what makes my car cool, its what my car is. I swapped it to a stick for a reason, 'cause I like 'em better, damnit . So just do whatever you really want.

I have a custom made z-bar from the '66 that I fab'd when the stock z-bar kept bending. I just noticed it last weekend under my bench. You can have it if you'd like to try it, free. It's strong as hell and you won't break or bend it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by n2oMike:
I wonder how the mph numbers compare. This would be a more valid indicator of how much power is reaching the rear wheels.

Plus, due to the bracket nature of Super Stock, I'd say most of the top guys are running automatics... which would also explain the performance difference.

---

Mike they are closer than you may think. Within one MPH in most cases.
True, the fun factor is not comparable.
If I had an unlimited budget MM would most certainly be a stick again. I love them and I am a stick shift drivin fool!

All I would need are two Jerico's, two $4000 clutches, two flywheels, one more third member (that would make 4 total)another drive shaft (3)and a nice shifter! That's all!
Oh yeah, I forgot that I would need another crew member to help me change all the parts that break in between rounds too.

Bottom line FACTS are that sticks are harder on EVERYTHING and less consistant. In Stock and Superstock racing I come in contact with more stick guys than you could imagine. Most if not all are my good friends. At any given race I am under one of their cars helping them to adjust or change their clutch, change transmissions, rear ends etc. This is WEEK IN and WEEK OUT!
Other than driving them, there is NO FUN in campaining a car with a stick anymore.

Mike, it's been a while since you have raced. Wait until you get your car back out and if it makes the power it should and it hooks, YOU'LL be under it in no time fixing something that broke! I GUARANTEE IT!
I want to race when I'm at the track. I get to work on my stuff enough at the shop.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

------------------
Glen
67 GT 390
65 Galaxie 500 XL 4 Speed
It was not a Red Light they gave me a Slow Tree
I WAS NOT LATE the Tree was Fast

------------------
SCOOP
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs

2.26 60'S
14.9 @ 90.86MPH

65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8"3.40 TracLoc,Cragar SS,Black Suede.

Everyone is making some good points on which tranny is better. The manual really is fun when it all works as it should but I just hate it when I have to work on it. There's nothing like the "fulltime torque" and "unlimited control" you get from driving a stick. On the otherhand, an automatic shifted manually can be fun too and it allows you concentrate on other things besides the mechanics of clutching and shifting.
I guess I'll try to sort out the problem and then we'll see what happens. While I'm just cruising, the clutch releases at least 3-4 inches from the floor and shifts fine. The Z-bar is a good hardened steel unit and has been through 3 diffrent Stangs so it's OK. I went away from the Long (3 finger) style clutch because it was hard on the old legs and gave me cramps on the long nights when I went into the final rounds. I had problems missing shifts early on but the Hurst shifter took car of all that. Before I spend anymore money on this manual drivetrain, I swear I'll go look for a good "hydromatic" instead.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Glens67:
STEEVE Let me try it. I have busted 2 Hurst Plus shifters right off at the first bend, talk about fun

---

You're welcome to try anything I have, except Barb.

But, Your z-bar is much tougher than the '65/'65 z-bars, and I don't think it would fit.

Check out my spare for sale on E-Bay

How many ponies do you figure that clutch setup of yours would take?

Would it hold a torquey strip-only 460?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mark T 7724:
I have been known to break a trans or 4 but so far it's been something else that that has taken it out. The last time it was the rear gears on the line grenaded and it took the trans with it, I "LOVE" mowing the gears though so my vote is to keep the Stick.

---

Mark,

My daughter loved the manual tranny too, and has a 5 speed in her street car. But, the only times that car has broken at the track were with a t-5 tranny. One weekend we had a well prepared track at Sac raceway and spit the pinion out the front of the case. Rebuilt it and the w/e after that we were back at Sac Raceway and in the same lane it rolled the spring perches and took out another drive shaft. Then the c-4 w/t-brake went in and it ran better than ever by over 1/2 second, followed by the 408w stroker. Now running in the upper 10's and still no failures at the track. Heck we're still running 28 splined axles (moser) and a single ribbed stock case. I like c-4's

But, I like driving manual trannys better and so does Melissa.
But for bracket racing, I (like Alex) would rather race than wrench on the car. The track appreciates not having to clean up too.

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve'66:
Mark,

Rebuilt it and the w/e after that we were back at Sac Raceway and in the same lane it rolled the spring perches and took out another drive shaft.

SteveW

---

Hell steve we did that with the fairlane footbrakin the c-4

------------------
69 fairlane 351w 12.94@103mph before M&M.. after??
always in search of more HP and faster ET'S

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mark T 7724:
Steve: I have never Oiled the track with my Jericho trans, I'm sure if you had a better stick trans than what you were running you would still be running it.

---

Wellll........not a lot anyway Mark. That thing always leaks.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

I'll just calm down, drop my shift points, and drive it like it ain't paid for yet.

quote:

---

Originally posted by bluestreek:
On the otherhand, an automatic shifted manually can be fun too and it allows you concentrate on other things besides the mechanics of clutching and shifting.

---

Oh please, the cellphone can be balanced on the shoulder and the Slurpee between the thighs while you shift... that's no excuse for the eternal damnation that is automaticdom.

"Stick" with a proper tranny and leave the slushboxes to those that need 'em.

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve'66:
Is the manual tranny really quicker?

A look at the NHRA S/S records revealed the following;

SS/A 8.72 (manual)
SS/AA 8.64 (automatic)

SS/E 9.58 (manual)
SS/EA 9.52 (automatic)

SS/J 10.30 (manual)
SS/JA 10.02 (automatic)

SS/O 11.49 (manual)
SS/OA 11.43 (automatic)

SS/P 12.30 (manual)
SS/PA 11.68 (automatic)

The average of all SS manual classes is 10.102 seconds.

The average of all SS automatic classes is 10.195.

So the answer is MAYBE, SOMETIMES But not by much.

SteveW

[This message has been edited by steve'66 (edited 03-03-2003).]

---

Steve, you showed a FEW convinient SS class records where the Auto records were a tad quicker than the stick, (even though 1 of the stick "records" was at a minimum), however, it appears that the majority of the remaining SS classes had the STICK record quicker, but you never bothered to mention THOSE. Although Mel did very well with that awful 3speed with overdrive stick trans, you must admit that those ratios are awful when it comes to racing, with huge drops. For a 12 or 13 second street/strip car, you can usually get by with a basically stock trans & mild convertor, but I`ll bet most people with LONG LASTING automatics, in over 3000 lb cars running mid 10`s or quicker have a good chunk of dough in their automatic. Pricewise, a BRAND NEW Jerico is $2550.I have seen many Powerglides advertised for twice that, if you get into the heavy duty stuff needed for reliability in a fast car. Alexs ultra lite weight tricky dicky C4 costs way more than all new Jerico, & he hopes it will last 100 passes, which I don`t believe it has come close to yet. My Jerico was built in 1990, & used in a 8 second SS/AM 57 Corvette(multi time record holder, too) for several years, until I bought it used for $2000.00 US. The previous owner never actually broke the trans, although he did send it back to Jerico for a "go-through" before I purchased it.We only took the trans apart to change the input shaft & bearing retainer to make the trans compatible with my 428 FE Ford. After 4 full seasons, & hundreds of runs, I have yet to even take the cover off the trans! Thats better life than my fairly trick roller bearinged, re geared, trans brake & 8" convertored C6 enjoyed, plus the stick has gone 3 & 1/2 tenths quicker & over 6 MPH faster than my best ever with the automatic! On my street strip 302 Fairmont, replacing the C4 (shift kit, 2800 convertor) with a stock T5 5speed was even more dramatic, almost 9 tenths, & 5 mph better in the 1/4 mile, PLUS I knocked almost 1000 rpm off my freeway cruise revs. Steve, I`m sure that your Mustang would have gone faster with a race stick trans, with proper ratios. Alex, I can`t see why your Mustang which is likely lighter than my Fairmont, & would make less power would need a spare Jerico, I don`t!! TomP bought his Jerico before I had mine, I dn`t think he`s had the cover off neither! Granted, a stick can be a bit tougher to cut consistently good lights with, although the NHRA Stock World champ seems to have managed just fine! I think about half the NHRA Stock world champs have won the title with sticks over the past 15 or so years, even though they probably account for less than 10% of all the Stockers in competition.

quote:

---

Originally posted by BLstangin:

...I have heard of the diaphram either not releasing or sticking with the pedal on the floor...

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by TomP:

Oh please, the cellphone can be balanced on the shoulder and the Slurpee between the thighs while you shift... that's no excuse for the eternal damnation that is automaticdom.

"Stick" with a proper tranny and leave the slushboxes to those that need 'em.

---

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!
TomP, Ya made me spit coffee, Dude!!

Bluestreek:
Either way you decide; I suggest you take heed to SteveW experiences though, if you haven't already boxed your spring perches, you should! Or else, due to the extra hitting power of your hotter mill, YOU'LL be rolling your perches and breaking a driveshaft too!!

quote:

---

Originally posted by bluestreek:
Question for Rory M.. Is the Jerico really a "manual" tranny and is it sanctioned the same as one??

---

That's a good point, when you shift without a clutch how is that different than an automatic. Just curious,

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rory McNeil:
Steve, you showed a FEW convinient SS class records where the Auto records were a tad quicker than the stick, (even though 1 of the stick "records" was at a minimum), however, it appears that the majority of the remaining SS classes had the STICK record quicker, but you never bothered to mention THOSE. Although Mel did very well with that awful 3speed with overdrive stick trans, you must admit that those ratios are awful when it comes to racing, with huge drops. For a 12 or 13 second street/strip car, you can usually get by with a basically stock trans & mild convertor, but I`ll bet most people with LONG LASTING automatics, in over 3000 lb cars running mid 10`s or quicker have a good chunk of dough in their automatic. Pricewise, a BRAND NEW Jerico is $2550.
Alexs ultra lite weight tricky dicky C4 costs way more than all new Jerico, & he hopes it will last 100 passes, which I don`t believe it has come close to yet.

---

That's for a "base" Jerico. NOBODY who is fast in S/SS uses a BASE Jerico Rory. NOBODY!
Mag case, better gears, and precision machined units like LeBlanc, Paquet, Hill, Pond, etc. use are $5250. Call Hemminson for a price. COD only and no credit cards.
We have put 52 trouble free passes on our "last" incarnation of the JPT UltraLite C-4. It appears that the two years of R&D have paid off handsomly. How long did it take Jerry Hemmingson to get the Jerico right? Remember that I grew up racing with him in the midwest when he had his Pinto.
So far so good.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

quote:

---

Originally posted by JCQuinn@work:
I remember that Pinto, it was real fast and always lost on a missed shift. I once asked him how much he wanted for the car minus the transmission. All I got for a reply was a dirty look.

John

---

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

quote:

---

Originally posted by Rory McNeil:
He does carry a spae Jerico with him, but we have swapped trans in about 45 minutes (those CHevelles are pretty much wide open underneath!), which is quicker than you can change a torque convertor, much less messy too! As for adjusting my clutch pressure, I can adjust all 6 springs in my pressure plate in about 15 minutes. Alex, be honest, how many torque convertors have you tried in your MUstang over the years? I`ve watched & helped several Stock & S/S buddys swap convertors at the track, & I have the pink shirts to prove it! . I`ve seen one Chevy racers try 3 different convertors on his SS/JA 72 Chevelle on a single track rental day.

---

Rory, I can have the powerglitch out in 10 minutes. 2 U-joints, 5 bellhousing bolts, 2 starter bolts, quick release cross member and 2 bolts for the shifter cable, cut one wire for the transbrake. You can get to all the bellhousing & starter from the engine bay with a ratchet. A 5 dollar tailshaft plug keeps fluid off of you. 2 guys can put a lightweight Powerglitch back on the motor in about 15 minutes. Hooked up ready to rock & roll.

Sounds like those class racers you hang out with ain't real smurfy at taking a race tranny out. Just an observation. BTW MOST other cars I run with in PRO Et brackets are easy like this too. When I say most I mean guys that race regular.
JS

quote:

---

Originally posted by TomP:
Oh please, the cellphone can be balanced on the shoulder and the Slurpee between the thighs while you shift... that's no excuse for the eternal damnation that is automaticdom.

---

------------------
SCOOP
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs

2.26 60'S
14.9 @ 90.86MPH

65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8"3.40 TracLoc,Cragar SS,Black Suede.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Dozens!

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

------------------
69 fairlane 351w 12.94@103mph before M&M.. after??
always in search of more HP and faster ET'S

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

------------------
69 fairlane 351w 12.94@103mph before M&M.. after??
always in search of more HP and faster ET'S

But they are good threads filled with interesting information. You can learn more about racing parts during these arguments than you can by reading 5 years worth of magazine articles.

Keep shooting guys.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fstln69:
Alex have you heard of Fred's trans and convertors?He supposedly was one of the original owners of ATI.I have a 10"ss 19 vane convertor he built that is supposed to be 98% efficent in high gear for high hp application for my chebbie
Dennis

---

No I have not Dennis. It must be a mechanical diode converter.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moneymaker:
PS, NO converter can EVER be 98% efficiant!
A clutch can't even be 98% efficiant.

---

------------------
69 fairlane 351w 12.94@103mph before M&M.. after??
always in search of more HP and faster ET'S

If you really want the best use an electric shifter on the new c-4. Perfect shifts everytime.

SteveW

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve'66:
Hey Blue,

If you really want the best use an electric shifter on the new c-4. Perfect shifts everytime.

SteveW

He means a "SISSY" shifter.

* this thread was loosing its steam....

---

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

A TKO is not that big an investment but can I honestly expect it to live for any period of time behind 600 ft lbs? First time I bolt on the slicks I can probably kiss that thing goodbye. A C-6 with very little work will live a long and happy life behind that kind of torque. I have thought about a T-56, but two overdrive gears?

I LOVE to bang them gears!

Disclaimer: I built my car for having fun first, racing second (still haven't made it to the track ). Ever since I've been a licensed driver (and even before ) I've loved driving stickshift cars. Autos definately seem to have consistancy and repeatabiliby on their side, and probably break less stuff, but Dan, how often do you plan to wind that thing 8k??? I shift mine on the 7k limiter all the time without any problems . I don't have enough camshaft to spin it any more than that. But being that this is the racing forum, I'll just shut my mouth and behave

I'm with Glen, Mike, Tom, Rory, Stephen, and Mark

------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9"

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve'66:
Hey Blue,

If you really want the best use an electric shifter on the new c-4. Perfect shifts everytime.

SteveW

* this thread was loosing its steam....

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It's funny you should say that, Steve. I was thinking about that while I was underneath the car this evening changing out my shifter. It took me 2 hours to take out the bad one and get the spare put in and adjusted. I'm gonna leave the old iron 4 speed in the '66 for awhile and begin saving and scrounging for a "easyshift" '67 Cougar race project. I'll have my cake and eat it too!

One more question Which tranny is better, C4 or C6?

DAN

We have tried to figure out why they won't engage at high RPMS. So heres a question to the group. Is it possible with a diahragm clutch and old hard linkage,Z bar, to go beyond center? Doesn't a diaphragm clutch use a different style throwout bearing than a three finger Long plate?

Only Chebbys and women use diaphragms

quote:

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Originally posted by bluestreek:
One more question Which tranny is better, C4 or C6?

DAN

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Dan,

A built c-4 is worth .3 seconds off your et over a c-6. A good c-4 van handle over 500 hp with less rotating mass and hp loss than a big old c-6.

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Originally posted by kcode:
Blue,
Keep the manual, get rid of your clutch and go back to the Long style. Your problem is not unique to you. A couple of guys around here have the same problem with a FOMOCO Diaphragm in early Mustangs.

We have tried to figure out why they won't engage at high RPMS. So heres a question to the group. Is it possible with a diahragm clutch and old hard linkage,Z bar, to go beyond center? Doesn't a diaphragm clutch use a different style throwout bearing than a three finger Long plate?

Only Chebbys and women use diaphragms

Mike

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Mike, I used a custom made diaphragm clutch with an early style HD throwout bearing in my last 289 combo with excellent results up to 7200 rpms. The shop that built it went out of business. This time I decided to use an FMS clutch and PP. The throwout bearing in the FMS kit was too short and small, so I used another early HD throwout. One other problem I ran into was when I found out that the new Aluminum/steel flywheel was 1/8 thinner than the stock iron flywheel. I think you're right about the geomtry being off a little. I will figure it out one way or another. Pulling the TL tranny will be last resort!

I haven't intentionally shifted without the clutch. It's abuse, it may be faster, just like an engine would be faster without that darn oil making windage... drain it.

Any stocker i've ever seen has a regular $2500 Jerico like i have. The faster ones may shift second without using the pedal on qualifying runs, heads up or record runs. In these cars automatic breakage is not uncommon... in fact the scariest incident i saw last year was a 69 Camaro Stocker blowing it's Turdo 350 thru the windshield on the burnout, actually split the case horizontally and sent schrapnel thru the floor, dash, windshield and cowl...this is a mid 10 second car.

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Originally posted by TomP:
So am i correct in thinking Bluestreek is trying to set the record for 331" 66 Mustangs? Therefore NEEDS to shift without a clutch?

Ask what a "good" automatic costs, and decide value from there...

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No it's not a record setter! Not yet anyway.
The roller cam is too small for that (236 dur. .580/.600 lift).
I refuse to shift a toploader without a clutch. It just isn't made for it. I just make split second shifts bumping the clutch and keeping the pedal on the floor. Before changing clutches I'm gonna take it to the track and find what shift points it really likes. Maybe I won't need to get into those high rpms now, but eventually with a bigger cam, this thread will be very helpful.

OK what would a decent C4 cost to safely handle 400-500 ft-lb launches??

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Originally posted by bluestreek:

The roller cam is too small for that (236 dur. .580/.600 lift).
Before changing clutches I'm gonna take it to the track and find what shift points it really likes.

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I doubt it will want any more than 6800rpm. My 302 has a 236/248 cam, and 6800 rpm is all it wants. It will rev higher, but doesn't run better. Worse, actually. Your 331 might even do best shifted around 6500. You'll just have to experiment.

BTW, a set of slicks and a 6800rpm launch will probably put the car into the 11's.

You'll just need to get that clutch figured out. The soft-loc sintered iron unit offered by McLeod is really tough to beat. It's base pressure is adjustable, and it works off heat... so it slips on launch a little (keeps the engine from bogging) then as it gets heat it grabs, and locks tight for the rest of the run. This also helps extend the service life of drivetrain parts dramatically.

Cars run fastest with these set up pretty loose, but they don't last all that long that way. I run mine fairly tight to get good disk life. (and to hold up to the bottle) The disk has given great service for 3 years, and shows very little wear.

They'll try and sell you the complete kit with aluminum flywheel, etc. But, all you really need are the disk and pressure plate. Your existing flywheel will work just fine.

I use the clutch and don't powershift (except for special occasions) and this trans (small input/output) has been in service for several years now. (although it's about due for a major overhaul)

McLeod also offers a less expensive rev-loc clutch that uses a sintered iron disk and non-adjustable pressure plate. It would hold up to major power and allow clean shifts... it just wouldn't be adjustable.

Regardless, I don't like diaphragm pressure plates and disks with that wavy marcel spring between the facings. Get a Long style plate, and a disk without the marcel for best shifting... and don't use tranny oil that is too thick.

Oh well, enough rambling... I gotta' go!

Good Luck!

"...A top-shelf McLeod with a low base pressure is easier than a Pinto to use. Check out my spare for sale on E-Bay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2405424746&category=6755

McLeod is at the top of the line-up when it comes to clutches. Their soft-lock is very popular among racers.

I believe their web address is...

http://www.mcleodind.com

I've been using Mobil 1 75w90 gear oil. It's around $8/qt at Autozone. There are others out now that might be better. Just look for a good oil (not ATF based) that is meant for syncronized manual transmissions.

I just fill it up until it comes out the fill hole. It's around two quarts or so. I also installed a vent in the top of the tailhousing that helps relieve things a bit. (often included in rebuild kits, and available from Dan Williams Toploaders, and probably David Kee)

Good Luck!