And you are only talking an extra 100-200 pounds or so for an aluminum headed/intake BBF over some of the small blocks....

------------------
Larry

No fast Fords at this time but one fine cruising 96 F350 CC DRW Power Strokin diesel.
And one rusty 64 Fairlane nick-named the Rust Bucket....And sometimes called the Money Pit...

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsracingbbf:
it doesn't cost anymore to build a BBF than a SBF. I've done both, money is about the same.

---

Jerry, I have to dissagree with you on this one.
You can't build a cover to cover BBF for 150% of what you can build a SBF for.
I go through this every day.
Parts availability is 10 to 1 for small blocks over 385 or FE.
It's not like the chebbies or Mopars where you can purchase aftermarket performance parts at Sears or Wal-Mart.
That in itself attributes to a 25% cost disparity minimally.
Expertise is another area. There are far more qualified SBF engine builders than BBF.
Another important factor is the car itself. Most if not all of us have started with some sort of a V-8 baseline car and evolved it into what it is.
The shear numbers of OE equipped SBF vs BBF cars determine the preferance.
You guys always hear me say "the only thing better than cubic inches is more cubic inches" and it's true.
I guess I should add "the only thing better than parts money is more parts money" to that statement.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsracingbbf:
it doesn't cost anymore to build a BBF than a SBF. I've done both, money is about the same.

---

This maybe true for a race engine where all, or most parts are being replaced for performance reasons. But on a mild street/strip motor, I bet there would be a signifcant difference. Then add in the swap kit need to fit most popular body styles now days. Right now I am regretting going from a 302 based block to a windsor block for the same reasons. I had all the performance parts for the 302( canton pan, msd dizzy,vic jr intake, long tube headers etc..) and now have to replace it all with parts that will work with a 351 based motor. I could have had a 347 shortblock built and had a running car already. Live and learn I guess. This is also why my original answer was a two parter. The approach for a race only car and a street car are different.

------------------
69 fairlane 351w 12.94@103mph before M&M.. after??
always in search of more HP and faster ET'S

So, with that taken in consideration, it is still cheaper to build A 514 or 557 BBF than build two SBF's...hehehe

Build it big the first time and you won't have to build two motors....hehehehe...

------------------
Larry

No fast Fords at this time but one fine cruising 96 F350 CC DRW Power Strokin diesel.
And one rusty 64 Fairlane nick-named the Rust Bucket....And sometimes called the Money Pit...

Record setting 289 SS engine $15-25k

Chassis, trans/converter devlopment over the years $50k

Look on peoples faces when the visit you in the pits and see that engine with a 40 year old 400 CFM carburetor after a mid ten second pass..............PRICELESS!

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

quote:

---

So, with that taken in consideration, it is still cheaper to build A 514 or 557 BBF than build two SBF's...hehehe

Build it big the first time and you won't have to build two motors....hehehehe...
[/B]

---

The 408W I'm building is my first engine for this car.

Fully prepped 351W block = $320
Balanced Eagle/SRP assembly w/balancer and flex plate = $1673
Like new Vic Jr heads = $900
Just need cam, lifters, and pushrods to finish it.

quote:

---

Originally posted by 68DARKHORSE:

Just need cam, lifters, and pushrods to finish it.

---

And I know just where you can get them.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

quote:

---

Originally posted by Just Strokin:
Hummmmmm....as I read this, I get the impression that most of the SBF guys wish they had built a larger small block ...

---

Maybe most, but not all the guys. My little 357 inch small block already makes about as much power as the chassis can handle now. A bigger motor would just make things "ugly".

The small block was a stroker (427) and the big block was erm... bigger. I cant remember but it was a little more displacement than the small block.

the cost was similar for both because the big block was built mostly with iron stuff while the small block was built all light weight with aluminum racing stuff. Power was similar although the big block had much more torque.

the big block was faster by about 0.1 seconds

Im not favouring one or the other, but if the big block was stroked it would have been even faster. the big block seemed more expensive if you want to build it right.

Remember the test was a simple drag race. I personally prefer small blocks for weight distribution/handling and lower fuel consumption. they can hold their own at the track, but ulitmatley if you want to get into the single digit racing it really helps to have monster cubes (500+)

------------------
69 fairlane 351w 12.94@103mph before M&M.. after??
always in search of more HP and faster ET'S

------------------
Neal

quote:

---

Originally posted by indyphil:
if you want to get into the single digit racing it really helps to have monster cubes (500+)

---

I dis-agree with that. Grnted it is easier to go fast wiht a big motor, it isn't necassary. Look at my car for example. It has a 357 inch motor with factory cast iron heads, all the internals are either Ford factory parts cast no later than 1973, or off the shelf aftermarket peices. The only "trick" items I have is a good convertor, and a good alcohol carb, and yet in a relatively light car it has ran 1/8 mile times equivalent to 9.80's in the qrtr, and that was done while in "qrtr mile" trim. Nothing "exotic" about it and it is still less than 360 inches.

Now, can a small block guy add things to his small block to make it as fast as a bigblock? sure he can if funds aren't a factor. Can the big block guy buy the same nitrous kit and smoke the small block guy all things being equal? 100% of the time.

Consider this, if smaller engines were better there would be rules in the sanctioning bodies that dictated how small your engine could be not how large.

Consider this, if smaller higher revving engines were better then all the Power plants and Gas pipelines like I work at would be running small block chevys instead of 10 inch bore ten cylinder Cooper Bessemers at 300 Rpm that produce 1500 HP.

So why run a small block? personal preference, some cars "work" better with a small motor, chassis limitations, class rules, small blocks are a kick to hear REV, etc.
At some point the cost of building a big block is less than what it would cost to make a small block run the equivalent. Personally, I appreciate both BBF's and SBF's it's Chevys I hate

Perhaps I'm a little biased, with a 466 going into my Torino in place of the 351C. It is a mild build, with 11:1, edelbrock RPM heads, 250/[email protected] solid, etc.

quote:

---

Originally posted by cracing:
As Jerry said I think its more of a preference thing than real world examples.

---

Exactly.

I will argue this point with anybody about costs of building a BB vs. SB. We can get 640 HP out of a .030 over 460 using D3 heads, torker-II intake, comp cams 2xx-S and some other stuff I don't want to say. Just think of the "$" you would have to stick into a SB to get 640 HP out of it.

Don't get me wrong. Small blocks have there place. But for a pulling truck or drag car. Big blocks are a thing of beauty.

But how many of us are that smart?

Lets face it, a stickshifted 300 incher at 9000 RPM plus makes a sweet sound, but so does a 700 incher at 7500! I like em all!

------------------
63 Falcon 377 Cleveland stroker Flying Toilet alchohol injection. 6.19 @ 110 MPH 1/8 mile
2002 Ranger FX4 daily driver
2000 F350 PSD Crew cab dually - Like commuting in a B52!!
98 US Cargo Phantom II 28'

quote:

---

Originally posted by D&S Induction Systems:

I will argue this point with anybody about costs of building a BB vs. SB. We can get 640 HP out of a .030 over 460 ...Just think of the "$" you would have to stick into a SB to get 640 HP out of it.

---

I don't think it would take me that much more money to get another 40 or so horses out my motor which would easily put me at 620-630 hp at the flywheel (if not more). So that kind of shoots that theory right in the foot 'cuz my motor is not a fancy high dollar small block. Frankly, it borders on being junk.

P.S: My "Small Block" Mustang is going to be a 427 stroker... I love Cubes.

quote:

---

Originally posted by cracing:
68 Fastback, 3076#,Iron 460+030,stock rods,crank,dampener,70 model Iron heads,flat tappet cam,off the shelf TRW pistons, Offy portosonic with 950 Holley out of box, engine cost me $1863 in 1988 including block & heads, ran it till 99,cost $1400 to rebuild,runs 1.28 60'(best)5.98 ET (best)shift at 5800. I like my friend Jerry, will stay with a fat motor. Oh, and no oiling modifications,factory oil sys. & police oil pump do fine, adjust the valves once a year whether it needs it or not,same plugs for a year,same dist., wires,since 88.Same rear gears from 88 till 01.

[This message has been edited by cracing (edited 02-27-2003).]

---

IN 1988 we sold brand new Lincoln Town Cars for $19,995!
Price out a set of TRW pistons today.
Get realistic as it's 2003, not 1988 anymore.
Buy the way, your car is awful fast for that small of an engine. What does it weigh? Did the trans, converter, and rear end come along with that $1863?

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

quote:

---

Originally posted by D&S Induction Systems:

I will argue this point with anybody about costs of building a BB vs. SB. We can get 640 HP out of a .030 over 460 using D3 heads, torker-II intake, comp cams 2xx-S and some other stuff I don't want to say. Just think of the "$" you would have to stick into a SB to get 640 HP out of it.

---

Enough with the bullsh*t!
Let's get real now.
HOW MUCH??????

HOW MUCH does that 460 motor cost complete?
I mean, HOW MUCH can I or anyone come to your shop and buy one for right off the dyno (if you have an engine dyno) for complete ready to go parts and labor? (no carb or ignition)
$3k? $5k? $10k?
No bullsh*tting now buddy, remember that I'm in the parts business to make money as you are in the engine business to make money, not to show everyone how smart or cool you are so don't fudge.
HOW MUCH?

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

A 550-650 h.p. 490ci BBC is $9,399.

He doesn't advertise the price for BBF's.

That's complete carb to pan and balancer to flywheel.
Seems pretty fair,

SteveW

AND.....live maintanace free for 11 years!

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moneymaker:
OK, now that I'm all wound up anyway let's do some math.
5.98 in the 1/8 mile translates into approximatly 9.50 in the 1/4 mile.
At 2800 lbs and only 70% efficiancy

---

Relax Alex,

Maybe he runs a 1800# rail?!?!?

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moneymaker:
I give everyone the benefit of the doubt Steve. I THINK that in his post he says his car weighs 3076 lbs but I'm not sure. That may be his competition number?
Just for the sake of argument though, at 3076 lbs it would require 710 HP to go 9.50.
That's a pretty stout number regardless of parts for a 434 inch motor.

---

Yes you're right Alex, if it weighs 2800+ pounds. Butch's BBF Comet comes to mind.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

quote:

---

Originally posted by D&S Induction Systems:
The reason I asked this in the first place is because, everybody is asking about there 351, 302, etc... Nobody ever talks about BIG BLOCKS!

I will argue this point with anybody about costs of building a BB vs. SB. We can get 640 HP out of a .030 over 460 using D3 heads, torker-II intake, comp cams 2xx-S and some other stuff I don't want to say. Just think of the "$" you would have to stick into a SB to get 640 HP out of it.

Don't get me wrong. Small blocks have there place. But for a pulling truck or drag car. Big blocks are a thing of beauty.

---

I don't kbnow how you can get 600+ HP out of D3 heads and a 2xx solid flat tappet cam. In fact, I'm skeptical that this is even possible.

I am hoping for 600 with Ebrock CJ RPM heads and a 294/306 cam.

What's your secret on the D3's?

Greg

Sorry, but I believe my slide rule and I don't belive that even a "460" .030 that you discribe is capable of 5.90 ET's in a 3100 lb car. It don't compute! Not in 660 feet anyway. I know that some southern tracks have 590 foot clocks as I have raced on them.

My entire point is cost vs value anyway.
In todays dollars you can't build a 600 HP 460 for less than $6k.
I can build a 300 HP 302 for $1500 all day long. $1500 is far more affordable for most enthusiasts then $6k.
Someday when I win the lotto I'll call up John Kaase and get me one of them there 815 inch Boss headed deals and blow you all in the weeds.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moneymaker:
Enough with the bullsh*t!
Let's get real now.
HOW MUCH??????

HOW MUCH does that 460 motor cost complete?
I mean, HOW MUCH can I or anyone come to your shop and buy one for right off the dyno (if you have an engine dyno) for complete ready to go parts and labor? (no carb or ignition)
$3k? $5k? $10k?
No bullsh*tting now buddy, remember that I'm in the parts business to make money as you are in the engine business to make money, not to show everyone how smart or cool you are so don't fudge.
HOW MUCH?

---

First off, the "crate engine" combo isn't for sale. We started this project because somone told me "you cant make power over 6500 RPM's with factory D3 heads". I wanted to see if this was true and just see how far the envlope could be pushed.

The reason it isn't for sale is because I don't know how long the heads engine etc... are going to last. Lets just say, areas of the heads and intake are quite thin. I don't want to sell copies of this engine and have them fall apart...NOT GOOD

What the secret you ask? Well lets start off with the 40+ hours of port work plus machine work. At one point and time I was going to try and relocate the spark plug. Maby on the next set who knows. Lets see if the first try holds together.

In all reality you're better off just getting after market heads...

We have about $5000.00 into the engine.

"remember that I'm in the parts business to make money as you are in the engine business to make money"

The problem here is you don't know me personally. I'm not in the engine building business to make money. I do it because it's the only thing I'm good at and I LOVE engine building. The smell, look, and sound of a 1000 HP engine as it pounds the ground and you're chest is heaven to me. The problem is, money is involved in dayly life. So I have to make a living. If I had twenty million dollars I'd still get my hands dirty and build engines.

"not to show everyone how smart or cool you are so don't fudge"

I know you think I'm just a wet nosed kid. I don't know what to say...

quote:

---

Originally posted by D&S Induction Systems:
First off, the "crate engine" combo isn't for sale. We started this project because somone told me "you cant make power over 6500 RPM's with factory D3 heads". I wanted to see if this was true and just see how far the envlope could be pushed.

The reason it isn't for sale is because I don't know how long the heads engine etc... are going to last. Lets just say, areas of the heads and intake are quite thin. I don't want to sell copies of this engine and have them fall apart...NOT GOOD

What the secret you ask? Well lets start off with the 40+ hours of port work plus machine work. At one point and time I was going to try and relocate the spark plug. Maby on the next set who knows. Lets see if the first try holds together.

In all reality you're better off just getting after market heads...

We have about $5000.00 into the engine.

"remember that I'm in the parts business to make money as you are in the engine business to make money"

The problem here is you don't know me personally. I'm not in the engine building business to make money. I do it because it's the only thing I'm good at and I LOVE engine building. The smell, look, and sound of a 1000 HP engine as it pounds the ground and you're chest is heaven to me. The problem is, money is involved in dayly life. So I have to make a living. If I had twenty million dollars I'd still get my hands dirty and build engines.

"not to show everyone how smart or cool you are so don't fudge"

I know you think I'm just a wet nosed kid. I don't know what to say...

---

Good enough!

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

quote:

---

Originally posted by cracing:
All the info was in the original post it was a 460 all the time. You are confusing two different posts. Were those supposed records you set on those 590 ft tracks? No one I know of believes those records either. So now you see, you know what you did & I dont, & I know what mine did & you dont. But just because you or I dont believe it dont make it so. At the time of these passes it had a 1.76 PG with a 5300 converter & a 5.43 rear, it now has a 4.86 rear, I did build it & rebuild it for those prices.

---

Sir, after reading your last post I have now come to the definate conclusion that you are indeed full of sh*t! Like it, me, M&M or not I really don't care. No brag, just fact!
Now as far as records go, when you can set one anywhere, any place, any time, with any sanctioning body, I will congratulate and applaud you on your great accomplishment. Until then, don't make statments or comments that you can't back up. Don't doubt what is in the NHRA and IHRA record books.
You see sir, I AM the current NHRA and IHRA National and World record holder in my class and can back it up.

Quarter-Mile Record Holders
Updated 02/27/2003 Super Stock Eliminator
Class E.T. Speed Date Driver/Car Location
SS/A 8.72 154.70 08/17/02 Allyn Lee - Red Deer, AB
'68 Ply Barracuda Calgary, Al
SS/B 9.09 146.43 11/30/02 Anthony De Pillo - DAYTON, OH
'64 Ply Savoy Montgomery, AL
SS/C 9.34 04/06/02 Jimmy Bridges - Nashville, TN
'66 Chev Corvette Montgomery, AL
SS/C 0.00 11/25/02 Minimum

SS/D 9.34 142.43 03/23/02 Kenneth Vaughn - Columbia, TN
'68 Chevy Camaro Memphis, TN
SS/E 9.58 158.98 03/23/02 Mike Cates - Milan, TN
'68 Chev Camaro Memphis, TN
SS/F 9.57 140.71 12/15/02 Alvin Le Blanc - Bartlett, TN
'69 Ford Mustang Orlando, FL
SS/G 9.58 139.89 03/23/02 Alvin Le Blanc - BARTLETT, TN
'69 Ford Mustang Memphis, TN
SS/H 9.69 11/30/02 Danny Coffman - RUSSELLVILLE, KY
'66 Chevy Nova Montgomery, AL
SS/H 136.19 06/22/02 Tony Fillipone - Woburn, MA
'66 Chevy Nova Atco, NJ
SS/I 9.97 132.66 10/12/01 Tony Fillipone - Woburn, MA
'66 Chevy Nova SS Reading, PA
SS/J 10.30 129.71 09/22/01 Marcus Allen - Colorado Spgs, CO
'73 Chevy Camaro Denver, CO
SS/K 10.03 130.26 11/30/02 Robin Brown - Madisonville, KY
'66 Chevy II Montgomery, AL
SS/L 10.45 125.09 10/12/01 Everett Hill - Fayettville, GA
'64 Ford Mustang Bristol, TN
SS/M 10.71 122.23 10/05/02 Everett Hill - Fayettville, GA
'64 Ford Mustang Darlington, SC
SS/N 11.49 114.10 03/31/01 James Lee - Tulsa, OK
'55 Chevy Bel Air Memphis, TN
SS/O 11.49 114.83 03/10/02 Richard Feldman - East Liverpool, OH
'66 Chevy Impala Orlando, FL
SS/P 12.30 0.00 08/24/01 Minimum

SS/AA 8.64 11/30/02 David Barton - Wernersville, PA
'68 Dodge Dart Montgomery, AL
SS/AA 151.00 04/15/01 Michael Ogburn - Mission Viejo, CA
'68 Ply Barracuda Chandler, AZ
SS/BA 9.70 0.00 01/08/03 Minimum

SS/CA 9.85 0.00 02/03/03 Minimum

SS/DA 9.42 140.80 11/30/02 Alex Polewik - Fort Dodge, IA
'69 Chevy Camaro Montgomery, AL
SS/EA 9.52 138.27 11/30/02 Kenneth Schindler - Hendersonville, TN
'68 Chevy Corvette Montgomery, AL
SS/FA 9.67 135.72 04/07/01 Gene Mc Bean - Chardon, OH
'69 Ford Mustang Atco, NJ
SS/GA 9.68 12/15/02 Eugene Mc Bean - Chardon, OH
'69 Ford Mustang Orlando, FL
SS/GA 136.87 04/15/01 Tony Hewes - Reno, NV
'69 Ford Shelby Chandler, AZ
SS/HA 9.74 135.31 04/14/02 Gary Mc Glasson - Los Lunas, NM
'69 Chevy Camaro Boise, ID
SS/IA 9.87 133.32 04/15/01 Gary Mcglasson - Los Lunas, NM
'69 Chevy Camaro Chandler, AZ
SS/JA 10.02 131.68 10/12/02 Angelo Ditocco - Mahopac, NY
'98 Pont Firebird Reading, PA
SS/KA 10.34 127.10 04/06/02 Gary Russell - Sparta, OH
'98 Chevy Camaro Delmar, DE
SS/LA 10.66 122.39 06/08/01 Alex Denysenko - Lyons, IL
'65 Ford Mustang Brainerd, MN
SS/MA 10.96 04/15/01 Rod Stults - Marysville, WA
'64 Chevy Chevelle Chandler, AZ
SS/MA 0.00 05/29/02 Minimum

SS/NA 11.95 0.00 02/25/03 Minimum

SS/OA 11.43 113.36 02/15/03 Wayne Hayes - Elgin, SC
'56 Chev 210 Sedan Darlington, SC
SS/PA 11.68 112.14 11/30/02 Rene Garza - Fort Wayne, IN
'55 Chevy Sedan Montgomery, AL
SS/AC 11.50 0.00 08/24/01 Minimum

SS/BC 11.75 0.00 08/24/01 Minimum

SS/CC 12.38 105.81 04/14/02 James Caughlin - Woodburn, OR
'78 Ford Pinto Boise, ID
SS/DC 13.35 0.00 08/24/01 Minimum

SS/EC 13.85 0.00 01/08/03 Minimum

SS/FC 11.67 10/12/02 Ray Stover - Mt Vernon, OH
'91 Olds Calais Clermont, IN
SS/FC 0.00 11/25/02 Minimum

SS/AX 8.82 150.20 03/23/02 Timothy Cole - Collierville, TN
'96 Chevy Corvette Memphis, TN
SS/BX 9.61 144.32 04/06/02 Richard Oakes - Woolwich Tup, NJ
'92 Chevy Camaro Z28 Delmar, DE
SS/CX 10.24 130.81 10/12/01 Richard Oakes - Woolwich Tup, NJ
'92 Chevy Camaro Reading, PA
SS/DX 8.17 171.31 11/02/02 John Gallina - Henderson, NV
'87 Bui Grand Nat'l Las Vegas, NV
SS/AS 8.72 155.68 05/04/02 George Vignogna - Salem, NY
'97 Chry Sebring West Lebanon, NY
SS/BS 8.87 151.84 04/07/01 Gerry Russo - Saddle River, NJ
'92 Chevy Camaro Atco, NJ
SS/CS 9.76 05/19/02 David Bogner - Kearney, NE
'92 Dodge Daytona Clermont, IN
SS/CS 140.86 08/11/01 David Bogner - Kearney, NE
'92 Dodge Scribner, NE
SS/DS 10.03 133.90 05/25/01 Rich Oakes - Woolwich Tup, NJ
Chev Camaro Z-28 Reading, PA
SS/AM 9.05 0.00 02/25/03 Minimum

SS/BM 8.42 160.65 04/26/02 James Butner - Floyds Knobs, IN
'96 Olds Achieva Joliet, IL
SS/CM 8.91 149.75 05/05/02 Jeffrey Lane - Northbend, WA
'02 Pont Grand Am Mission, BC
SS/DM 9.08 04/26/02 Teresa Butner - Floyds Knobs, IN
'96 Olds Achieva Joliet, IL
SS/DM 147.59 04/15/01 Abe Loewen - Regina, SK
'98 Chevy Grand Am Chandler, AZ
SS/EM 9.45 140.56 04/26/02 Rodney Dorsey - North Judson, IN
'95 Olds Achieva Joliet, IL
SS/FM 9.62 136.77 04/06/02 George Taylor - Baltimore, MD
'67 Chevy Camaro Delmar, DE
SS/GM 9.60 139.83 04/07/01 Rich Oakes - Woolwich Tup, NJ
'92 Chevy Camaro Atco, NJ
GT/A 9.27 144.50 12/08/01 Shaun Le Blanc - Bartlett, TN
'88 Ford Saleen Orlando, FL
GT/B 9.44 141.64 10/12/02 Larry Eagle - Bethesda, OH
'91 Olds Calais Clermont, IN
GT/C 9.39 03/10/01 Charlie Westcott - Parma, MI
'98 Pontiac Grand Am Orlando, FL
GT/C 0.00 04/02/02 Minimum

GT/D 9.41 140.38 11/30/02 Charlie Westcott - Parma, MI
'98 Pont Grand Am Montgomery, AL
GT/E 9.64 136.22 10/12/01 Charlie Westcott - Parma, MI
'99 Pont Grand Am Reading, PA
GT/F 9.74 10/12/02 Charlie Westcott - Parma, MI
'98 Pont Grand Am Reading, PA
GT/F 135.31 08/24/02 Joseph Mendillo - HAMDEN, CT
'69 Chevy Camaro Rising Sun, MD
GT/G 10.55 0.00 01/08/03 Minimum

GT/H 9.94 132.88 11/30/02 Stephen Koch - Mt Wshngtn, KY
'92 Pont Grand Am Montgomery, AL
GT/I 10.27 128.51 03/10/01 Brad Zaskowski - Grand Rapids, MI
'87 Chevy Camaro Orlando, FL
GT/J 10.85 0.00 08/27/02 Minimum

GT/K 10.90 0.00 01/21/02 Minimum

GT/L 11.10 0.00 08/24/01 Minimum

GT/M 11.30 0.00 08/24/01 Minimum

GT/AA 9.15 144.48 12/15/02 Anthony Cretella - Newington, CT
'86 Chevy Camaro Orlando, FL
GT/BA 9.37 140.16 04/14/02 Frank Grossi - Upland, CA
'69 Pont Grand Am Boise, ID
GT/CA 9.53 11/30/02 Richard Decker - Charlestown, IN
'94 Chevy Camaro Montgomery, AL
GT/CA 138.58 10/12/01 Vincent Impastato - Shelby Twp, MI
'86 Chevy Camaro Reading, PA
GT/DA 9.63 136.48 05/25/01 Jim Boburka - Coraopolis, PA
'99 Pontiac Reading, PA
GT/EA 9.75 135.88 04/14/02 Ritch Ahrens - Greeley, CO
'85 Potn Firebird Boise, ID
GT/FA 9.95 134.38 04/06/02 Jeff Roell - Poughquag, NY
'93 Ford Mustang Delmar, DE
GT/GA 10.12 130.89 04/06/02 Wes Leopold - Mc Donald, PA
'87 Dodge Daytona Delmar, DE
GT/HA 10.26 129.90 10/12/01 Dean Ribeiro - Candia, NH
'85 Pont Firebird Reading, PA
GT/IA 11.00 0.00 01/08/03 Minimum

GT/JA 10.40 127.88 06/08/01 Mike Mans - Rogers, MN
'00 Pontiac Firebird Brainerd, MN
GT/KA 10.51 125.63 10/12/01 Bruce Campbell - Waynesville, NC
'88 Pont Firebird Bristol, TN
GT/LA 10.52 125.76 12/08/01 Bruce Campbell - Waynesville, NC
'88 Pont Firebird Orlando, FL
GT/MA 10.84 121.95 11/30/02 Steven Reynolds - Pasadena, TX
'86 Chev Monte Carlo Montgomery, AL
SS/TA 9.30 143.81 10/12/01 Thomas Ciccarone - West Chester, PA
'98 Chevy S-10 Reading, PA
SS/TB 9.20 04/15/01 Camron Kallas - Bluffdale, UT
'00 Chevy S-10 Chandler, AZ
SS/TB 0.00 08/27/02 Minimum

SS/TC 10.10 0.00 01/01/01 Minimum

SS/TD 10.31 131.86 04/06/02 James Zane - Bordentown, NJ
'99 Chevy S-10 Delmar, DE
GT/TA 9.68 11/30/02 Joseph Bohannon - Louisville, KY
'01 Chevy S-10 Montgomery, AL
GT/TA 135.19 04/06/02 John Mc Intyre - Dunnville, ON
'99 Chevy S-10 Delmar, DE
GT/TB 10.65 0.00 02/25/03 Minimum

GT/TC 10.95 0.00 08/24/01 Minimum

GT/TD 10.46 125.08 05/24/02 Joseph Scott - Sunbury, PA
'01 Chevy S-10

Whether you went 5.98 in the 1/8 was really never my issue. I really don't doubt that you have or can go that fast. What I and several others on this forum doubt was just by the means you claimed. Physics and science don't lie. A certain mass require a certain amount of horsepower to propell a vehicle a distance in a specific amount of time. To produce that amount of horsepower requires precision machining, compression, air flow, and effeciancy. 650 HP from a flat tappet 477 inch stock headed TRW motor ain't happening.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

quote:

---

Originally posted by jsracingbbf:
Not to provoke anything but, cracing's car does run that fast, I've seen it myself. It is also published on Bracketracing news.com. Won some money too I'm pretty sure.
It is a very quick 68 for what he has in the motor.
Why not just respect each other's abilities and the Ford's we race? drive? whatever? I used to race a 351C like KV and I love seeing the 351C's run.
Race, Be happy!

---

I'm not shure how this fight started, but all I have to say is "think out of the box" that Car Craft, Hot Rod and all these other "bolt on babes" got alot of people in. I'm not even talking about cracing's car. Just racing and engine building in general. If sombody raises the bar, meet the chalange and think out of the box.

The question was asked "why a small block?", and several people tried to answer.
The fact remains, like a chebbie the parts availability if ten fold for a SBF to a BBF.
Cost and supply dictate to some if not most what they can build.
I love all Ford engines. (well most anyway)
I have over the years built many big blocks. Mostly FE's but a fair amount of 385's. Back in the 70's and early 80's you could build a pretty decent 385 for $2k. Today you can't buy a good crank and set of rods for that.
The question was asked and answered. Nobody meant to get off of the topic intentionally and start cheering one over the other.
I think that we all feel that FoMoCo's rule the roost and that's why we're here at M&M in the first place.
I have no doubt that Cracing has a fast car. I do doubt that he goes as fast as he claims with his stated combo. There are a few things he may have left out. That's cool. I make statements in error occasionally and I admit to it. I don't hide behind an edit key. His motor was originally a .030 429 and now it's a 460. If he made a mistake that's cool. I do it all the time. Maybe he also left out the fact that it's has a 3/4 inch arm. Whatever.
I can build a 300 HP 302 for $1500 complete. Will it run 10's in my car? Hell no!
Can anyone build a complete 460 that runs 9.50's in a 3100 lb car for $2k today? Hell no! That was my point.
In the edited post Bullit cams are mentioned. I know those folks real well. IN 1999 they still worked for Comp cams. They weren't even in business yet.
I can say that I built my first SS motor in 1995 for $5k and I did. I can't say that it runs what it does today with a $1400 freshen up. I've got over $5k in the heads now.
I raised some questions about 590 foot clocks. I feel that they were valid. Only in the south is there 1/8 mile track saturation. I have raced at dozens of southern 1/8 mile tracks. More than 50% of them show 590 and 660 foot ET's on the time slips. I didn't make it up. SOmetimes people make mistakes when typing. They don't type what they mean. I do it all the time. I guess that's why we have edit keys and white out. If any of us could build cover to cover 500 HP 460's for FOUR thousand dollars, we'd be rich, much less a 650 HP engine for $1863 and a $1400 freshen up. Like I said, maybe something was just left out. A blower, No2, a Turbo, stroker crank, who knows.

Anyway, BIG or SMALL block, 4,6 or 8 cylinder, if it's a FoMoCo, we love them all. Maybe not equally, but we do love them.
I'm sorry that this turned into a brawl of sorts and appologize if anyone feels offended. It didn't start out to be my intention to do so.
I am very proud of our accomplishments as we have worked very hard to attain them. It's my nature to strike back when someone insults them.
Let's get back to the topic and why there are more SBF's vs BBF's.

Peace.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

So, in the end, why we all be friends and get along?!?!?!?...

------------------
Larry

No fast Fords at this time but one fine cruising 96 F350 CC DRW Power Strokin diesel.
And one rusty 64 Fairlane nick-named the Rust Bucket....And sometimes called the Money Pit...

quote:

---

Originally posted by jdsgallops:
I am curious if the $5g includes money for the time spent on the 40hrs of port work and machine work stated. Port work isn't done for free, unless your doing it yourself. Or is the 5g money spent on parts only?

---

Not taking sides here,but I agree 100% porting work is not cheap or easy.I run into guys all the time that say yea my car puts out 500hp and it only costs me $2000 or so.Then you find out that guys dad owns an engine shop.

Not being an engine builder or head porter,heck I just did my 1st cam change.
I like it when people give real quotes to let the NON engines guy like me know how much things really cost.This is not pointed at any one person on here,it's just my opinion.

I did enjoy reading all the info above.This got alittle off the issue but non the less.It is still a great post and as a lot of good info.

Thanks to all for taking the time to share your knowledge with the back yard mechanics like me.

------------------
SCOOP
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs

2.26 60'S
14.9 @ 90.86MPH

65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8"3.40 TracLoc,Cragar SS,Black Suede.

All this talk make me want to build my first BBF. I have Dove C heads already...Would that be a good start?

I know I can get 650 HP for under $4K in a all Iron BBM. That is me doing the porting, not paying to have it done. I know cause I have one.

------------------
Rick Austin

The original question was "why a small block"? The main reason for me is threefold.

1. A smaller lighter engine will enable a car to be engineered to turn corners more easily. When I race it is drag racing but the car I drive should handle in the corners.

2. Horsepower per pound. Shelby's Mustangs didn't make more power than the Corvettes he beat back in the 60's he had a better HP/Weight ratio than they did.

3. It is a fairly well known fact that it is easier to get higher horsepower per cubic inch ratio with a smaller engine. I used to race in Comp where classes are determined by Pounds per cubic inch. If you look at the cars being run you will find that most are small blocks. Running the same Pounds per cubic inch with two equally prepared engines the smaller engine will always run better. When I was racing they set up the classes so that there were some classes that you could not run a small block in usually with weight minimums. In any class where you could run either, the big blocks didn't have a chance.

If you are building a bracket racer, I agree that a big block is a better choice. You can go pretty fast without turning high RPM. I would use a small block cause I like them but I would have much higher maintenance.

Before you tell me your big block turns high RPM, in comp if you want to win High RPM is 10500. Talk about high maintenance.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jdsgallops:
I am curious if the $5g includes money for the time spent on the 40hrs of port work and machine work stated. Port work isn't done for free, unless your doing it yourself. Or is the 5g money spent on parts only?

---

No, the port work I did my self. We spent 5k on the parts etc... This was a test engine I did and we plan to run it in the company pulling truck. This will show if the engine and heads will hold up. If I were to sell this set up some day the port work would cost aprox 1300.00 extra.

The entire induction system has been reworked. From the carb mounting surface on the intake to the header/mfld. mounting surface on the heads.

I have a picture of the chambers but have no idea how to post photo's in this forum.

quote:

---

Originally posted by cracing:
See if you think it possible to run 3.90s in 660ft with a blown sbc in a 63 vette doorslamer. Mitchell Scruggs did in Pensacola Fla.Low 4ohs in Darlington, Nashville,& Huntsville. BTW the comments about Bullet cams,you are right John & a group came from Lunati there, however Bullet has been supplying cams to Speedway for many years up untill Bullet sued them for misrepresentation. Also Hap's of Ames Iowa used them in 95 because my son in law bought an engine with his choice of Bullit cams in it. I'm not going to tell you what he paid, you would't believe it. My post did NOT start out as a 429 & the edit was due to misspelled words & I didnt add the part about the oiling system,it didnt have anything to do whatsoever about engine size. You did not even ask what length track & I didnt state it . I said best ET was 5.98, nowhere did I say 660 ft. It was in truth a 600 ft track & fueled by alky, (but you didnt ask, just jumped me with both feet) , still not bad for what it is. You were the one who jumped in & assumed I was talking about 660 ft. I do not care if you believe or not, I & those who really know were there. I saw what others were saying about you on three other sites & couldn't believe that a fellow Ford guy would really act that way, Boy! Was I ever wrong!

---

You weren't wrong.

I know you still love me.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

But... I want to back up what the other guy is saying about his 460 because mine is nearly identical. My engine has right around $3500 total investment.

460 ci (yes standard bore) L2443 TRW dome pistons, 12.3 to 1 compression, stock rods, stock crank, stock block, CJ iron heads (heavily ported by me), blue thunder dual plane intake, 1050 holley, 260/272 .666"/.688" custom street roller cam, 2-1/8" hooker headers.

In the 4000 lb Torino (w/driver) it pulls 125 MPH through the 1/4 mile. You can do the calculations and I think you'll find that it is well past the 600 hp mark. Not trying to brag, just giving my example.

I'm getting ready to build a 521 stroker combo that should be between 700 and 800 horsepower at the flywheel and it will be dyno tested. My total investment in this engine will be right at $5000.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike_R:

385 series can be built for a reasonable price. The big key is using iron heads and being able to port them yourself.

---

I think these are the smartest words in this entire thread. Though even with my porting experience on small block heads I don't know that I could tackle a set of 385 heads with the same results. They are quite a different design, though most theory would translate regardless.

quote:

---

Originally posted by D&S Induction Systems:

I will argue this point with anybody about costs of building a BB vs. SB. We can get 640 HP out of a .030 over 460 using D3 heads, torker-II intake, comp cams 2xx-S and some other stuff I don't want to say. Just think of the "$" you would have to stick into a SB to get 640 HP out of it.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mike_R:

I'm getting ready to build a 521 stroker combo that should be between 700 and 800 horsepower at the flywheel and it will be dyno tested. My total investment in this engine will be right at $5000.

The big key is using iron heads and being able to port them yourself.

---

My 408W will cost well under $4k(including the Vic Jr heads). The only thing not after market is the block.

Porting heads yourself is not free. By using aftermarket heads I have an xtra 40 hours(according to a previous post) to spend with my family.

Will I have 700hp? No, but I will have a 500hp streetcar that handles like an I6 with suspension mods.

------------------

I think I can build a 500+HP 500+ft/TQ or so BBF for under $4k. Street and/or Strip.

Get a 460 .30 over shortblock from a reputable local rebuilder. $850.00 with core.

Cam and lifters $200.00 Solid lift. .550 lift or so .280 to .290 duration.

Dove C Iron heads from ebay. $300.00
Machine shop rebuild. $700.00

Should make around 10-10.5/1 compression.

Single plane intake $300.00

Rebuildable 750 DP swap meet. $50.00
Proform body Jegs. $106.00
Misc carb parts - $50.00

Scorpion Roller rockers = $219.00 from Alex

Push rods, guideplates, studs= +/-$120.00

Headers = +/-$400.00.

Swap meet valve covers, Oil Pan. misc brackets etc.. - $300.00

Flywheel = $100.00

Gasket set, head bolts etc.. - $120.00

Total - $3815.00

See anything I missed?

Now, how much to build the same HP/TQ in a SBF?

Kid, Clevelands don't count. They are too awesome to be considered in this option!!!

------------------
Rick Austin

quote:

---

Originally posted by 64FalconF-16:
Ok, I crunched some numbers on this. Let's compare..

I think I can build a 500+HP 500+ft/TQ or so BBF for under $4k. Street and/or Strip.

Get a 460 .30 over shortblock from a reputable local rebuilder. $850.00 with core.

Cam and lifters $200.00 Solid lift. .550 lift or so .280 to .290 duration.

Dove C Iron heads from ebay. $300.00
Machine shop rebuild. $700.00

Should make around 10-10.5/1 compression.

Single plane intake $300.00

Rebuildable 750 DP swap meet. $50.00
Proform body Jegs. $106.00
Misc carb parts - $50.00

Scorpion Roller rockers = $219.00 from Alex

Push rods, guideplates, studs= +/-$120.00

Headers = +/-$400.00.

Swap meet valve covers, Oil Pan. misc brackets etc.. - $300.00

Flywheel = $100.00

Gasket set, head bolts etc.. - $120.00

Total - $3815.00

See anything I missed?

Now, how much to build the same HP/TQ in a SBF?

Kid, Clevelands don't count. They are too awesome to be considered in this option!!!

---

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moneymaker:
Yeah, that's cool and all , but......they are still just too damn BIG!

---

ALEX! READ YOUR RULE #3

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

quote:

---

Originally posted by Moneymaker:
If you could build a 477 inch SBF then you might be onto something.
External dimentions are just TOO BIG!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by 64FalconF-16:
OkNow, how much to build the same HP/TQ in a SBF?

---

Small blocks make more HP/pound and are easier to hook up. If you are going to issue a challenge it should include performance at the track not numbers on a dyno.

It's an interesting challenge, if my current project gets finished I will post some approximate cost and ET numbers.

quote:

---

Originally posted by jdsgallops:
If you want to compare, you have to use used parts to compare fairly. To get those kind of numbers from a small block you would need to stroke to a 408 for the torque number, 500hp is just a matter of rpm. To build a 408 means all new parts. Not a fair comparision. The only way to really truly compare is to build both engines and dyno them both, no hypothetical stuff. Used parts also have no known set value, one mans treasure is another mans garbage. This makes it extremely difficult to compare fairly. A better question would be "how much HP and TRQ can you build i na small block for xxx dollars?"

---

Don't get me wrong I love a challenge. But if I were building another race car I would not start with a small block unless I wanted to run with the small blocks.

I tried Small Blocks years ago and finally went with a Big cause I got tired of spending money to run against BBs and lose. I have never regretted it. They last longer. I shift at 5800 RPMs. I have only freshed up the bottom end once in 4 years.

If so I have a proposal so let's see how serious some of you BBF guys really are?

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

quote:

---

Originally posted by Inbred-Jed:

.....Funny, I thought we should be talking about how to improve these engines to crush those chevy and mopar guys!

---

...well, maybe not CRUSH them, but how about just embarrass the HE!! outta them every time they pull up in the bleach box beside a FoMoCo product!

Ryan

But, if we crush all the Chebbies and Mopars, all we'll have left to race is Toyotas and Hondas.