Brought to you in part by:

.

Shop Eastwood for your Auto Restoration Needs!


  Mustangsandmore Forums
  Ford Racing
  Why a small Block?

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq | search

UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone! next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Why a small Block?
D&S Induction Systems
Gearhead

Posts: 118
From: Columbia Heights Mn U.S.A.
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 02-26-2003 11:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for D&S Induction Systems   Click Here to Email D&S Induction Systems     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Why is it most people build small blocks? I can never figure this one out... When I say, "Heh, how about a big block"? Peoples faces always wrinkle up and say "Naww...".

I LOVE big blocks!

IP: Logged

thegabrielles
Journeyman

Posts: 25
From: Flowery Branch, Georgia USA
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 02-26-2003 11:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for thegabrielles   Click Here to Email thegabrielles     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
How about a 429 in a 79 mustang.... had a friend that had one, had a hard time keeping from tipping up on end when he hit the brakes... :-)

------------------
1990 7-up vert XE3 crate motor T-5, 3.55 gears 250hp
1982 SVO GT CAPRI bottom end of an 86SVO(4wheeldiscs, 5-lug, koni's) 82GT t-top car with Capri fender and tail lights, 351W WC T-5, 4.10 Auburn, [email protected] street legal with no power added, Car for sale

IP: Logged

SundanceKid
Gearhead

Posts: 970
From: UT
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 02-26-2003 11:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SundanceKid   Click Here to Email SundanceKid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
WEIGHT!

Nuf said!

IP: Logged

jdsgallops
Gearhead

Posts: 326
From: Naples, FL
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 02-27-2003 12:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jdsgallops   Click Here to Email jdsgallops     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think it all depends on what your looking for. Personaly I want a fast street car. So what are my limits? Daily driver? No. Fuel mileage? not really. Driveability? No. Stop light warrior that can be taken to the track as time allows? Yes. Being that my car sees more street time than track, I want "hook" on the street. Since the suspension and tire is the limit here, less lowend power is desired, which rules out a big block, IMO. Though my current plans are for a big inch small block(408) but in a heavy 88 t-bird. Now you ask why not a 460? Higher core price, higher parts cost, though I could probably use stock heads, depending on what year engine I find. Shear size and difficulty of maintence once placed in the engine compartment. No readily available and dependable overdrive tranny. Cost and availability of swap parts. Extra weight over the front tires making the car handle even worse than before. And honestly the small block market has become so big and technologically advanced that it is possible to get the same power out of the smaller cubes. It just makes sense, IMO.
Now if I had the time and money to build a drag only car, I would definatly look at a big block, but only if I was looking at running in the single digits for et's. Or I was restoring an original 60's muscle car.
/me dreams of owning dads 428cj powered 69 cyclone one day.

IP: Logged

jsracingbbf
Gearhead

Posts: 1526
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 02-27-2003 02:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jsracingbbf   Click Here to Email jsracingbbf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
it doesn't cost anymore to build a BBF than a SBF. I've done both, money is about the same.

------------------
Jerry
69 Mustang Pro ET Drag
70 Mustang retired former footbrake car
"This is FORD Country! On a Quiet night you can hear a Chevy Rust"

IP: Logged

Mpcoluv
Gearhead

Posts: 906
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 02-27-2003 07:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mpcoluv   Click Here to Email Mpcoluv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think a lot of it is what will fit "easily" in your chassis. Sure a 460 will go into about everything, but maintenance is a chore with tight clearences around the engine.
The 460s I have seen swapped into '67 to 73 stangs are a very tight fit.

IP: Logged

bluestreek
Gearhead

Posts: 1202
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 02-27-2003 08:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bluestreek   Click Here to Email bluestreek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Don't forget about fuel and oiling requirements. SB engines are much more efficient and require less lubrication mods than BB. That's why all performance carmakers have done away with BB engines except for heavy commercial use. If they want more displacement they just add more cylinders. Personally, I don't like the way a BB drives and stresses the suspension and brakes. In a short straight line with a landing strip, theres nothing better though.

------------------
1966 Mustang Coupe: Custom glass hood and BIG scoop sits atop a 289 stroked to 331 c.i., Steel crank and girdle, 5.4 H-beams, Forged slugs, ported TFS alum. heads, ported Stealth 8020 intake, CompCams Xtreme Solid Roller, Holley 750 HP, long tubes, 4speed, 9" 3.50 posi, BFG Drag radials..

IP: Logged

Just Strokin
Gearhead

Posts: 754
From: Tuscaloosa, Alabama
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 02-27-2003 08:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Just Strokin   Click Here to Email Just Strokin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There is no substitute for cubic inches...hehehehe..... ....and torque, gut wrenching, stump pulling torque.

And you are only talking an extra 100-200 pounds or so for an aluminum headed/intake BBF over some of the small blocks....

------------------
Larry

No fast Fords at this time but one fine cruising 96 F350 CC DRW Power Strokin diesel.
And one rusty 64 Fairlane nick-named the Rust Bucket....And sometimes called the Money Pit...

The sounds of a brain dropping into gear.....
"Buzzzzzz.......Click"

IP: Logged

kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4254
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 02-27-2003 08:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For me, it's because I don't like the added weight on a car that is already prone to be nose heavy. And like was also stated, they just don't fit easily into the engine bays of most of the cars we race. My cleveland is bad enough.

Less weight, more engine bay room, and I still get big power.

IP: Logged

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19611
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-27-2003 10:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jsracingbbf:
it doesn't cost anymore to build a BBF than a SBF. I've done both, money is about the same.



Jerry, I have to dissagree with you on this one.
You can't build a cover to cover BBF for 150% of what you can build a SBF for.
I go through this every day.
Parts availability is 10 to 1 for small blocks over 385 or FE.
It's not like the chebbies or Mopars where you can purchase aftermarket performance parts at Sears or Wal-Mart.
That in itself attributes to a 25% cost disparity minimally.
Expertise is another area. There are far more qualified SBF engine builders than BBF.
Another important factor is the car itself. Most if not all of us have started with some sort of a V-8 baseline car and evolved it into what it is.
The shear numbers of OE equipped SBF vs BBF cars determine the preferance.
You guys always hear me say "the only thing better than cubic inches is more cubic inches" and it's true.
I guess I should add "the only thing better than parts money is more parts money" to that statement.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

IP: Logged

jdsgallops
Gearhead

Posts: 326
From: Naples, FL
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 02-27-2003 10:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jdsgallops   Click Here to Email jdsgallops     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jsracingbbf:
it doesn't cost anymore to build a BBF than a SBF. I've done both, money is about the same.



This maybe true for a race engine where all, or most parts are being replaced for performance reasons. But on a mild street/strip motor, I bet there would be a signifcant difference. Then add in the swap kit need to fit most popular body styles now days. Right now I am regretting going from a 302 based block to a windsor block for the same reasons. I had all the performance parts for the 302( canton pan, msd dizzy,vic jr intake, long tube headers etc..) and now have to replace it all with parts that will work with a 351 based motor. I could have had a 347 shortblock built and had a running car already. Live and learn I guess. This is also why my original answer was a two parter. The approach for a race only car and a street car are different.

IP: Logged

68DARKHORSE
Gearhead

Posts: 337
From: Austin, Tx
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 02-27-2003 10:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 68DARKHORSE   Click Here to Email 68DARKHORSE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
408W with aluminum heads weighs less than a stock 289.

Better balance, better handling, more stopping power, better weight transfer, less weight to carry down the 1320', easier to steer w/o power steering, fits better, more stealthy....

IP: Logged

Fstln69
Gearhead

Posts: 314
From: Westmont,il
Registered: Jan 2003

posted 02-27-2003 11:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fstln69   Click Here to Email Fstln69     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have to agree with Alex,Being a (i'm going to get sh#& for this)a chebbie guy when i set out to build my wifes fairlane i looked at all the options out there.I had some access to FE stuff and 385 stuff.I talked to some ford guys new and old and came to the decision to build a sbf.Parts availability for the sbf by far is much better then any other with the success of the later model mustangs and working on this motor is a joy.So far what i have accomplished with our little sbf has impressed me and i never have owned a small block anything in my 23 years of Drag Racing.I know after talking with Alex on the phone that there is still way more peformance to get out of our 351w but pound for pound it still out runs anyone i know running sbc or for that matter mild bb's.And this from a guy who has just spent $$$$ building a 548ci big chief chebbie (OK hit me now)

------------------
69 fairlane 351w [email protected] before M&M.. after??
always in search of more HP and faster ET'S

Fstln69 Pics Page

IP: Logged

Just Strokin
Gearhead

Posts: 754
From: Tuscaloosa, Alabama
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 02-27-2003 12:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Just Strokin   Click Here to Email Just Strokin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hummmmmm....as I read this, I get the impression that most of the SBF guys wish they had built a larger small block based on the 351w or maybe have made the jump to 408 or 427 when they first built it.

So, with that taken in consideration, it is still cheaper to build A 514 or 557 BBF than build two SBF's...hehehe

Build it big the first time and you won't have to build two motors....hehehehe...

------------------
Larry

No fast Fords at this time but one fine cruising 96 F350 CC DRW Power Strokin diesel.
And one rusty 64 Fairlane nick-named the Rust Bucket....And sometimes called the Money Pit...

The sounds of a brain dropping into gear.....
"Buzzzzzz.......Click"

IP: Logged

65_289
Gearhead

Posts: 757
From:
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 02-27-2003 12:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 65_289   Click Here to Email 65_289     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Whay a small block? Ever try to stick a 460 in a '65 coupe? Cubes rule, but not if they won't fit in the engine bay!

IP: Logged

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19611
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-27-2003 12:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
65 Mustang "K" code car worth $20k

Record setting 289 SS engine $15-25k

Chassis, trans/converter devlopment over the years $50k

Look on peoples faces when the visit you in the pits and see that engine with a 40 year old 400 CFM carburetor after a mid ten second pass..............PRICELESS!

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

IP: Logged

68DARKHORSE
Gearhead

Posts: 337
From: Austin, Tx
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 02-27-2003 02:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 68DARKHORSE   Click Here to Email 68DARKHORSE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:

So, with that taken in consideration, it is still cheaper to build A 514 or 557 BBF than build two SBF's...hehehe

Build it big the first time and you won't have to build two motors....hehehehe...
[/B]


The 408W I'm building is my first engine for this car.

Fully prepped 351W block = $320
Balanced Eagle/SRP assembly w/balancer and flex plate = $1673
Like new Vic Jr heads = $900
Just need cam, lifters, and pushrods to finish it.

This will be a nice street/strip car. If I were building a drag only car, I would go big block.

IP: Logged

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19611
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-27-2003 02:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 68DARKHORSE:

Just need cam, lifters, and pushrods to finish it.


And I know just where you can get them.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

IP: Logged

Randy S
Journeyman

Posts: 14
From: WI
Registered: Jan 2003

posted 02-27-2003 02:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randy S   Click Here to Email Randy S     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Personally, I like to see the big grin and look of satisfaction on the "kid" that gets out of that '65 Mustang after a mid 10 second pass, and is in the top qualifying position. :-) It's kind of like those dancing banana icons, I'ld put some here if I knew how. Randy

IP: Logged

kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4254
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 02-27-2003 02:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Just Strokin:
Hummmmmm....as I read this, I get the impression that most of the SBF guys wish they had built a larger small block ...


Maybe most, but not all the guys. My little 357 inch small block already makes about as much power as the chassis can handle now. A bigger motor would just make things "ugly".

IP: Logged

indyphil
Gearhead

Posts: 642
From: Lafayette, IN, USA
Registered: Jul 2002

posted 02-27-2003 02:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for indyphil   Click Here to Email indyphil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There is an article in the latest car crafter (admitedly its a chevy engine thing)
that compares big block to small block on the drag strip in the same Chevelle car.

The small block was a stroker (427) and the big block was erm... bigger. I cant remember but it was a little more displacement than the small block.

the cost was similar for both because the big block was built mostly with iron stuff while the small block was built all light weight with aluminum racing stuff. Power was similar although the big block had much more torque.

the big block was faster by about 0.1 seconds

Im not favouring one or the other, but if the big block was stroked it would have been even faster. the big block seemed more expensive if you want to build it right.

Remember the test was a simple drag race. I personally prefer small blocks for weight distribution/handling and lower fuel consumption. they can hold their own at the track, but ulitmatley if you want to get into the single digit racing it really helps to have monster cubes (500+)

the other thing with small blocks is the revs. its easier(cheaper) to make a 289 rev it balls out at 8000RPM than a big block, and 8000RPM sounds so darn good.

IP: Logged

Fstln69
Gearhead

Posts: 314
From: Westmont,il
Registered: Jan 2003

posted 02-27-2003 02:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fstln69   Click Here to Email Fstln69     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Heres a perfect example,i have just finished building a 548ci pontiac big chief headed chevy motor for my 66 chevelle and i have spent around $16,000 and with no dyno time hoping for 900 real hp on gas.After this endeavour i have seen sbf's of course with centrifigal blower makes 1200hp for alot less.Would i do it over the same way..doubt it.

------------------
69 fairlane 351w [email protected] before M&M.. after??
always in search of more HP and faster ET'S

Fstln69 Pics Page

IP: Logged

MrWesson22
Gearhead

Posts: 1202
From: Dacula, GA
Registered: Sep 2000

posted 02-27-2003 03:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MrWesson22   Click Here to Email MrWesson22     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I thought that car craft article was a very poor choice for the two engines. When you look at it, they talk about the higher cost of big blocks, etc, but they actually spent more money on the SBC than they did on the BBC. Also, the small block had higher compression and a bigger cam than the big block as well as much more efficient aluminum heads. All this, and the big block was still faster. I like my cleveland now, but when I'm done playing with it, I'm definately dropping in 460+cid.

------------------
Neal

69 Gulfstream Aqua Grande
351C/4sp
https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/MrWesson22.html

IP: Logged

kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4254
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 02-27-2003 04:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by indyphil:
if you want to get into the single digit racing it really helps to have monster cubes (500+)


I dis-agree with that. Grnted it is easier to go fast wiht a big motor, it isn't necassary. Look at my car for example. It has a 357 inch motor with factory cast iron heads, all the internals are either Ford factory parts cast no later than 1973, or off the shelf aftermarket peices. The only "trick" items I have is a good convertor, and a good alcohol carb, and yet in a relatively light car it has ran 1/8 mile times equivalent to 9.80's in the qrtr, and that was done while in "qrtr mile" trim. Nothing "exotic" about it and it is still less than 360 inches.

IP: Logged

CometGT1974
Gearhead

Posts: 158
From: Asheville, NC USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 02-27-2003 05:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for CometGT1974   Click Here to Email CometGT1974     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK, i'm gonna chime in... I guess it all depends on what kind of racing you are gonna be doing. I kinda wish I would have built a smaller engine simply because the main limiting factor in my class is the 26x10" tire so the low torque, high rpm small cu. in. motors seem to be doing the best. Not that my little 347 does bad, it's run a best of 6.35 @ 111.8 mph but I don't like to spin it past 7200. Wish I would have went with less cubes and more cam!! I've always heard that big blocks do better on the other side of the 1/8th mile.

IP: Logged

cracing
Journeyman

Posts: 55
From: Saltillo Miss. USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 02-27-2003 06:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cracing   Click Here to Email cracing     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
68 Fastback, 3076#,Iron 460+030,stock rods,crank,dampener,70 model Iron heads,flat tappet cam,off the shelf TRW pistons, Offy portosonic with 950 Holley out of box, engine cost me $1863 in 1988 including block & heads, ran it till 99,cost $1400 to rebuild,runs 1.28 60'(best)5.98 ET (best)shift at 5800. I like my friend Jerry, will stay with a fat motor. Oh, and no oiling modifications,factory oil sys. & police oil pump do fine, adjust the valves once a year whether it needs it or not,same plugs for a year,same dist., wires,since 88.Same rear gears from 88 till 01.

[This message has been edited by cracing (edited 02-27-2003).]

IP: Logged

jsracingbbf
Gearhead

Posts: 1526
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 02-27-2003 06:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jsracingbbf   Click Here to Email jsracingbbf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Eventually, when you have done all you can to a small block you start to consider boring and stroking it. I have seen guys spend 10K to build a 408W and run mid tens. I guess when I said it was cheaper to build a big block or a small block. I didn't mean heads cost less or valves, manifolds, etc... Although prices aren't that much different, with the advent of CNC machining costs are getting to where it is just the difference in the R&D work and the size of the chunk of metal.
What I meant was this, I can and have built a mild big block for less money than folks I race with that build SBC, yes chevys ( you wanted cheap right? ) I stand by this, you can build BBF's for LESS money than a 408 CHEVY that was faster, cheaper, and lasted longer. I've got the reciepts to prove it.

Now, can a small block guy add things to his small block to make it as fast as a bigblock? sure he can if funds aren't a factor. Can the big block guy buy the same nitrous kit and smoke the small block guy all things being equal? 100% of the time.

Consider this, if smaller engines were better there would be rules in the sanctioning bodies that dictated how small your engine could be not how large.

Consider this, if smaller higher revving engines were better then all the Power plants and Gas pipelines like I work at would be running small block chevys instead of 10 inch bore ten cylinder Cooper Bessemers at 300 Rpm that produce 1500 HP.

So why run a small block? personal preference, some cars "work" better with a small motor, chassis limitations, class rules, small blocks are a kick to hear REV, etc.
At some point the cost of building a big block is less than what it would cost to make a small block run the equivalent. Personally, I appreciate both BBF's and SBF's it's Chevys I hate

------------------
Jerry
69 Mustang Pro ET Drag
70 Mustang retired former footbrake car
"This is FORD Country! On a Quiet night you can hear a Chevy Rust"

IP: Logged

cracing
Journeyman

Posts: 55
From: Saltillo Miss. USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 02-27-2003 07:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cracing   Click Here to Email cracing     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK then use a stock fat motor, run it 300,000 miles & give it to your grandchildren. 67 up stangs were avalible with BB, an FE at that, a 385 uses less room. A key word here was a SOUPED up small block. Fuel milage? I HAD a 302 F150 with a 5 spd od that got 13MPG tops, most times it got 11, also had a 150 with a 400 it got 14., friends F250 with 460 gets 14. As Jerry said I think its more of a preference thing than real world examples. A fat stock motor only requires a 2 something gear for street use, and the exhaust doesn't sound like someone blowing in a jug. This thread sounds like someone arguing about a small block Chev. vs Ford anything dont it Jerry? I have considered building a SBF for my Mustang, but it was too cost prohibitive to make it as quick as my Fat Henry, plus longevity factor. This is MY reasoning, not to offend anyone here with my opinions. We are all Henry's children. Hell, run what you want, we dont wear tablecloths on our heads, yet!

[This message has been edited by cracing (edited 02-27-2003).]

IP: Logged

Greg Pettit
Journeyman

Posts: 74
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Nov 2001

posted 02-27-2003 07:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Greg Pettit   Click Here to Email Greg Pettit     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'd like to see a post from a big block street car owner who wishes he had a small block instead.

Perhaps I'm a little biased, with a 466 going into my Torino in place of the 351C. It is a mild build, with 11:1, edelbrock RPM heads, 250/[email protected] solid, etc.

Greg

IP: Logged

kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4254
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 02-27-2003 07:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cracing:
As Jerry said I think its more of a preference thing than real world examples.


Exactly.

Those real world examples about not using all of a big blocks potential in a street car was just plain silly.

IP: Logged

cracing
Journeyman

Posts: 55
From: Saltillo Miss. USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 02-27-2003 08:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cracing   Click Here to Email cracing     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote


Those real world examples about not using all of a big blocks potential in a street car was just plain silly. [/B][/QUOTE]
Thats the point , you dont HAVE to use all of it, only whats necessary.

IP: Logged

D&S Induction Systems
Gearhead

Posts: 118
From: Columbia Heights Mn U.S.A.
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 02-27-2003 08:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for D&S Induction Systems   Click Here to Email D&S Induction Systems     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The reason I asked this in the first place is because, everybody is asking about there 351, 302, etc... Nobody ever talks about BIG BLOCKS!

I will argue this point with anybody about costs of building a BB vs. SB. We can get 640 HP out of a .030 over 460 using D3 heads, torker-II intake, comp cams 2xx-S and some other stuff I don't want to say. Just think of the "$" you would have to stick into a SB to get 640 HP out of it.

Don't get me wrong. Small blocks have there place. But for a pulling truck or drag car. Big blocks are a thing of beauty.

IP: Logged

Dad Vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 483
From: Moscow, Iowa, USA
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 02-27-2003 09:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dad Vishus   Click Here to Email Dad Vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've said for years that a mild big block in a drag car was the smartest way to go. If you aren't pushing the ragged edge, like you might tend to do with a small block , the parts will last much longer and maintainance would be far less.

But how many of us are that smart?

Lets face it, a stickshifted 300 incher at 9000 RPM plus makes a sweet sound, but so does a 700 incher at 7500! I like em all!

------------------
63 Falcon 377 Cleveland stroker Flying Toilet alchohol injection. 6.19 @ 110 MPH 1/8 mile
2002 Ranger FX4 daily driver
2000 F350 PSD Crew cab dually - Like commuting in a B52!!
98 US Cargo Phantom II 28'

[This message has been edited by Dad Vishus (edited 02-27-2003).]

IP: Logged

kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 4254
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 02-27-2003 09:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by D&S Induction Systems:

I will argue this point with anybody about costs of building a BB vs. SB. We can get 640 HP out of a .030 over 460 ...Just think of the "$" you would have to stick into a SB to get 640 HP out of it.



I don't think it would take me that much more money to get another 40 or so horses out my motor which would easily put me at 620-630 hp at the flywheel (if not more). So that kind of shoots that theory right in the foot 'cuz my motor is not a fancy high dollar small block. Frankly, it borders on being junk.

Considering my little motor outruns most similarily built big blocks on the strip, I think my motor belongs on the dragstrip just as much if not more than those big blocks.

IP: Logged

mustangboy
Gearhead

Posts: 617
From: Ont, Canada
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 02-27-2003 09:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mustangboy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Most mustangs built were smallblocks.This is a mustang site.It also has a record holding small block classic mustang owner who gives lots of free advice. In my opinion big blocks rule but its all the extra expense and hassle of installing one in a mustang besides building the motor that turns most people off.

------------------
1968 mustang j-code [email protected] 306cu.in, stock ported heads,weiand exellerator,650 holley DP,hedman hedders,comp 292 Magnum cam,4-speed,8 inch 4.11 detroit locker

IP: Logged

fordfan
Gearhead

Posts: 2857
From: Walla Walla, Wa, USA
Registered: Jun 99

posted 02-27-2003 09:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fordfan   Click Here to Email fordfan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My Brand-X truck makes more power, and gets about equal mileage with a Big Block, compared to the old Small block.

P.S: My "Small Block" Mustang is going to be a 427 stroker... I love Cubes.

[This message has been edited by fordfan (edited 02-27-2003).]

IP: Logged

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19611
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-27-2003 09:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cracing:
68 Fastback, 3076#,Iron 460+030,stock rods,crank,dampener,70 model Iron heads,flat tappet cam,off the shelf TRW pistons, Offy portosonic with 950 Holley out of box, engine cost me $1863 in 1988 including block & heads, ran it till 99,cost $1400 to rebuild,runs 1.28 60'(best)5.98 ET (best)shift at 5800. I like my friend Jerry, will stay with a fat motor. Oh, and no oiling modifications,factory oil sys. & police oil pump do fine, adjust the valves once a year whether it needs it or not,same plugs for a year,same dist., wires,since 88.Same rear gears from 88 till 01.

[This message has been edited by cracing (edited 02-27-2003).]


IN 1988 we sold brand new Lincoln Town Cars for $19,995!
Price out a set of TRW pistons today.
Get realistic as it's 2003, not 1988 anymore.
Buy the way, your car is awful fast for that small of an engine. What does it weigh? Did the trans, converter, and rear end come along with that $1863?

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

IP: Logged

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19611
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-27-2003 09:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by D&S Induction Systems:

I will argue this point with anybody about costs of building a BB vs. SB. We can get 640 HP out of a .030 over 460 using D3 heads, torker-II intake, comp cams 2xx-S and some other stuff I don't want to say. Just think of the "$" you would have to stick into a SB to get 640 HP out of it.



Enough with the bullsh*t!
Let's get real now.
HOW MUCH??????

HOW MUCH does that 460 motor cost complete?
I mean, HOW MUCH can I or anyone come to your shop and buy one for right off the dyno (if you have an engine dyno) for complete ready to go parts and labor? (no carb or ignition)
$3k? $5k? $10k?
No bullsh*tting now buddy, remember that I'm in the parts business to make money as you are in the engine business to make money, not to show everyone how smart or cool you are so don't fudge.
HOW MUCH?

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

IP: Logged

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19611
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-27-2003 09:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just going to prove a point.
Not that I need to, just having some fun.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

IP: Logged

steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 6150
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 02-27-2003 10:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Our engine builder gets $7,995 for a 475-525 h.p. 408W.

A 550-650 h.p. 490ci BBC is $9,399.

He doesn't advertise the price for BBF's.

That's complete carb to pan and balancer to flywheel.
Seems pretty fair,

SteveW

[This message has been edited by steve'66 (edited 02-27-2003).]

IP: Logged

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19611
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-27-2003 10:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK, now that I'm all wound up anyway let's do some math.
5.98 in the 1/8 mile translates into approximatly 9.50 in the 1/4 mile.
At 2800 lbs and only 70% efficiancy (converter/drivtrain loss etc) and MINE is phenominal at 75% or so, it takes roughly 645 HP to go 9.50.
That's pretty amazing!
I salute you sir!
I can only hope that someday I am good enough to build a TRW motored, factory head, 434 inch "ANYTHING" that cam make 545 HP, much less 645 HP with an Offy intake, flat tappet cam, and an out of the box carburito on nuts!

AND.....live maintanace free for 11 years!

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

IP: Logged

steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 6150
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 02-27-2003 10:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
OK, now that I'm all wound up anyway let's do some math.
5.98 in the 1/8 mile translates into approximatly 9.50 in the 1/4 mile.
At 2800 lbs and only 70% efficiancy

Relax Alex,

Maybe he runs a 1800# rail?!?!?

SteveW

IP: Logged

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19611
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-27-2003 10:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I give everyone the benefit of the doubt Steve. I THINK that in his post he says his car weighs 3076 lbs but I'm not sure. That may be his competition number?
Just for the sake of argument though, at 3076 lbs it would require 710 HP to go 9.50.
That's a pretty stout number regardless of parts for a 434 inch motor.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

IP: Logged

steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 6150
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 02-27-2003 10:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
I give everyone the benefit of the doubt Steve. I THINK that in his post he says his car weighs 3076 lbs but I'm not sure. That may be his competition number?
Just for the sake of argument though, at 3076 lbs it would require 710 HP to go 9.50.
That's a pretty stout number regardless of parts for a 434 inch motor.



Yes you're right Alex, if it weighs 2800+ pounds. Butch's BBF Comet comes to mind.

SteveW

IP: Logged

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19611
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-27-2003 10:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Last I remember, Butch's motor had a lot of good pieces in it and it was pretty big too!

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

IP: Logged

Greg Pettit
Journeyman

Posts: 74
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Nov 2001

posted 02-27-2003 10:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Greg Pettit   Click Here to Email Greg Pettit     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by D&S Induction Systems:
The reason I asked this in the first place is because, everybody is asking about there 351, 302, etc... Nobody ever talks about BIG BLOCKS!

I will argue this point with anybody about costs of building a BB vs. SB. We can get 640 HP out of a .030 over 460 using D3 heads, torker-II intake, comp cams 2xx-S and some other stuff I don't want to say. Just think of the "$" you would have to stick into a SB to get 640 HP out of it.

Don't get me wrong. Small blocks have there place. But for a pulling truck or drag car. Big blocks are a thing of beauty.


I don't kbnow how you can get 600+ HP out of D3 heads and a 2xx solid flat tappet cam. In fact, I'm skeptical that this is even possible.

I am hoping for 600 with Ebrock CJ RPM heads and a 294/306 cam.

What's your secret on the D3's?

Greg

IP: Logged

cracing
Journeyman

Posts: 55
From: Saltillo Miss. USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 02-27-2003 11:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cracing   Click Here to Email cracing     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Go back & READ the post it is a 68 Mustang Fastback with a 460 a 460 a 460,with 70 model cast iron CJ heads ported by me,a bullet 268-282 flat tappet .676-.688, 2443nf TRW pistons, truck rods, .010-.010 stock crank,offy portosonic ported to match CJ heads. We were talking engines only wernt we? I paid $343.00 for the pistons when I rebuilt it(read post again) I dont know HP numbers nor do I care, I do however have witnesses(many at the dragstrip including owner of track) as to the times posted, also Jerry has seen this car run. BTW his is a faster car than mine. A lot faster. Now this is what is in the engine, I built it myself,own it all, and dont owe S### on it, now if some sliderule genius or some smartazz know it all dont believe it, thats their problem, all I can say is come & see.

IP: Logged

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19611
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-27-2003 11:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ahhh the power of the edit key!
The .030 over 429 is now miraculously a 460.
That's still OK.

Sorry, but I believe my slide rule and I don't belive that even a "460" .030 that you discribe is capable of 5.90 ET's in a 3100 lb car. It don't compute! Not in 660 feet anyway. I know that some southern tracks have 590 foot clocks as I have raced on them.

My entire point is cost vs value anyway.
In todays dollars you can't build a 600 HP 460 for less than $6k.
I can build a 300 HP 302 for $1500 all day long. $1500 is far more affordable for most enthusiasts then $6k.
Someday when I win the lotto I'll call up John Kaase and get me one of them there 815 inch Boss headed deals and blow you all in the weeds.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

IP: Logged

cracing
Journeyman

Posts: 55
From: Saltillo Miss. USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 02-27-2003 11:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cracing   Click Here to Email cracing     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
All the info was in the original post it was a 460 all the time. You are confusing two different posts. Were those supposed records you set on those 590 ft tracks? No one I know of believes those records either. So now you see, you know what you did & I dont, & I know what mine did & you dont. But just because you or I dont believe it dont make it so. At the time of these passes it had a 1.76 PG with a 5300 converter & a 5.43 rear, it now has a 4.86 rear, I did build it & rebuild it for those prices.

IP: Logged

D&S Induction Systems
Gearhead

Posts: 118
From: Columbia Heights Mn U.S.A.
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 02-28-2003 12:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for D&S Induction Systems   Click Here to Email D&S Induction Systems     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
Enough with the bullsh*t!
Let's get real now.
HOW MUCH??????

HOW MUCH does that 460 motor cost complete?
I mean, HOW MUCH can I or anyone come to your shop and buy one for right off the dyno (if you have an engine dyno) for complete ready to go parts and labor? (no carb or ignition)
$3k? $5k? $10k?
No bullsh*tting now buddy, remember that I'm in the parts business to make money as you are in the engine business to make money, not to show everyone how smart or cool you are so don't fudge.
HOW MUCH?



First off, the "crate engine" combo isn't for sale. We started this project because somone told me "you cant make power over 6500 RPM's with factory D3 heads". I wanted to see if this was true and just see how far the envlope could be pushed.

The reason it isn't for sale is because I don't know how long the heads engine etc... are going to last. Lets just say, areas of the heads and intake are quite thin. I don't want to sell copies of this engine and have them fall apart...NOT GOOD

What the secret you ask? Well lets start off with the 40+ hours of port work plus machine work. At one point and time I was going to try and relocate the spark plug. Maby on the next set who knows. Lets see if the first try holds together.

In all reality you're better off just getting after market heads...

We have about $5000.00 into the engine.

"remember that I'm in the parts business to make money as you are in the engine business to make money"

The problem here is you don't know me personally. I'm not in the engine building business to make money. I do it because it's the only thing I'm good at and I LOVE engine building. The smell, look, and sound of a 1000 HP engine as it pounds the ground and you're chest is heaven to me. The problem is, money is involved in dayly life. So I have to make a living. If I had twenty million dollars I'd still get my hands dirty and build engines.

"not to show everyone how smart or cool you are so don't fudge"

I know you think I'm just a wet nosed kid. I don't know what to say...

IP: Logged

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19611
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-28-2003 12:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by D&S Induction Systems:
First off, the "crate engine" combo isn't for sale. We started this project because somone told me "you cant make power over 6500 RPM's with factory D3 heads". I wanted to see if this was true and just see how far the envlope could be pushed.

The reason it isn't for sale is because I don't know how long the heads engine etc... are going to last. Lets just say, areas of the heads and intake are quite thin. I don't want to sell copies of this engine and have them fall apart...NOT GOOD

What the secret you ask? Well lets start off with the 40+ hours of port work plus machine work. At one point and time I was going to try and relocate the spark plug. Maby on the next set who knows. Lets see if the first try holds together.

In all reality you're better off just getting after market heads...

We have about $5000.00 into the engine.

"remember that I'm in the parts business to make money as you are in the engine business to make money"

The problem here is you don't know me personally. I'm not in the engine building business to make money. I do it because it's the only thing I'm good at and I LOVE engine building. The smell, look, and sound of a 1000 HP engine as it pounds the ground and you're chest is heaven to me. The problem is, money is involved in dayly life. So I have to make a living. If I had twenty million dollars I'd still get my hands dirty and build engines.

"not to show everyone how smart or cool you are so don't fudge"

I know you think I'm just a wet nosed kid. I don't know what to say...


Good enough!

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

IP: Logged

Rory McNeil
Gearhead

Posts: 1177
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 02-28-2003 12:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rory McNeil   Click Here to Email Rory McNeil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Although I don`t run nines (YET!!! )nor do I run a 460 based engine, I have to think for a mild, reliable 10 second piece, it`s pretty tuff to beat alow rpm big block. I run a "dinosaur" FE in my Fairmont @3100 lbs.It is a .030 over 1967 428 Tbird block, with the stock Tbird cast crank & 3/8`s rods (ARP bolts). Heads are stock 69 428 Cobra Jet cast iron, with mostly original 30+ year old valves (2.09"I, 1.66"E). Cam is a $60.00 reground solid lifter unit, factory Ford aluminum dual plane intake, with a single 780 Holley vac. secondary carb. I could probably sell this engine for a profit at $3500.00 (but I won`t!!) I built this engine in 1994, have only re ringed it twice since then, last time 5 years ago, heads have not been off since.Late last year it ran it`s best numbers yet of [email protected] I shift it no higher than 6200 rpm, normally 6000. It has never popped a head gasket, broke a rocker arm, or so much as fouled a spark plug. Is it the "ultimate" Ford race engine? HELL NO!! BUT, it has served me very well over the years, and I have no reason to replace it with anything newer. Considering my car would need a major upgrade to run 9`s regularly, I can`t try for much more anyway. At one time I entertained the notion of selling my stockpile of FE pieces to collectors, & build a 400 plus inch 351W based engine, as there were a few running mid to high 10`s around here. But upon furture investigation, all the "low buck" local 408-426" Windsors (cut down 400 cranks, & stock blocks) had experianced crank or block breakage. And building one with aftermarket block, crank & rods, PLUS aluminum heads, PLUS a roller cam & valvetrain would be pretty expensive. If I wanted to go well into the 9`s regularly, the 4290460 family makes the most sense, without using a "power adder". We have a local Comp racer, with a 337 ci SB Ford, running 7.7`[email protected] 170 mph, in a 2100 lb Probe, but his car likely is worth more than my house!!

------------------
78 Fairmont 428 4 speed [email protected]
80 Fairmont 302 5 speed [email protected]
85 Mustang NHRA Stocker under construction, 302 5 speed
59 Meteor (Canadian Ford) 2 dr sedan 332, auto
74 F350 ramp truck 390 4spd

IP: Logged

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19611
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-28-2003 12:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cracing:
All the info was in the original post it was a 460 all the time. You are confusing two different posts. Were those supposed records you set on those 590 ft tracks? No one I know of believes those records either. So now you see, you know what you did & I dont, & I know what mine did & you dont. But just because you or I dont believe it dont make it so. At the time of these passes it had a 1.76 PG with a 5300 converter & a 5.43 rear, it now has a 4.86 rear, I did build it & rebuild it for those prices.

Sir, after reading your last post I have now come to the definate conclusion that you are indeed full of sh*t! Like it, me, M&M or not I really don't care. No brag, just fact!
Now as far as records go, when you can set one anywhere, any place, any time, with any sanctioning body, I will congratulate and applaud you on your great accomplishment. Until then, don't make statments or comments that you can't back up. Don't doubt what is in the NHRA and IHRA record books.
You see sir, I AM the current NHRA and IHRA National and World record holder in my class and can back it up.

Quarter-Mile Record Holders
Updated 02/27/2003 Super Stock Eliminator
Class E.T. Speed Date Driver/Car Location
SS/A 8.72 154.70 08/17/02 Allyn Lee - Red Deer, AB
'68 Ply Barracuda Calgary, Al
SS/B 9.09 146.43 11/30/02 Anthony De Pillo - DAYTON, OH
'64 Ply Savoy Montgomery, AL
SS/C 9.34 04/06/02 Jimmy Bridges - Nashville, TN
'66 Chev Corvette Montgomery, AL
SS/C 0.00 11/25/02 Minimum

SS/D 9.34 142.43 03/23/02 Kenneth Vaughn - Columbia, TN
'68 Chevy Camaro Memphis, TN
SS/E 9.58 158.98 03/23/02 Mike Cates - Milan, TN
'68 Chev Camaro Memphis, TN
SS/F 9.57 140.71 12/15/02 Alvin Le Blanc - Bartlett, TN
'69 Ford Mustang Orlando, FL
SS/G 9.58 139.89 03/23/02 Alvin Le Blanc - BARTLETT, TN
'69 Ford Mustang Memphis, TN
SS/H 9.69 11/30/02 Danny Coffman - RUSSELLVILLE, KY
'66 Chevy Nova Montgomery, AL
SS/H 136.19 06/22/02 Tony Fillipone - Woburn, MA
'66 Chevy Nova Atco, NJ
SS/I 9.97 132.66 10/12/01 Tony Fillipone - Woburn, MA
'66 Chevy Nova SS Reading, PA
SS/J 10.30 129.71 09/22/01 Marcus Allen - Colorado Spgs, CO
'73 Chevy Camaro Denver, CO
SS/K 10.03 130.26 11/30/02 Robin Brown - Madisonville, KY
'66 Chevy II Montgomery, AL
SS/L 10.45 125.09 10/12/01 Everett Hill - Fayettville, GA
'64 Ford Mustang Bristol, TN
SS/M 10.71 122.23 10/05/02 Everett Hill - Fayettville, GA
'64 Ford Mustang Darlington, SC
SS/N 11.49 114.10 03/31/01 James Lee - Tulsa, OK
'55 Chevy Bel Air Memphis, TN
SS/O 11.49 114.83 03/10/02 Richard Feldman - East Liverpool, OH
'66 Chevy Impala Orlando, FL
SS/P 12.30 0.00 08/24/01 Minimum

SS/AA 8.64 11/30/02 David Barton - Wernersville, PA
'68 Dodge Dart Montgomery, AL
SS/AA 151.00 04/15/01 Michael Ogburn - Mission Viejo, CA
'68 Ply Barracuda Chandler, AZ
SS/BA 9.70 0.00 01/08/03 Minimum

SS/CA 9.85 0.00 02/03/03 Minimum

SS/DA 9.42 140.80 11/30/02 Alex Polewik - Fort Dodge, IA
'69 Chevy Camaro Montgomery, AL
SS/EA 9.52 138.27 11/30/02 Kenneth Schindler - Hendersonville, TN
'68 Chevy Corvette Montgomery, AL
SS/FA 9.67 135.72 04/07/01 Gene Mc Bean - Chardon, OH
'69 Ford Mustang Atco, NJ
SS/GA 9.68 12/15/02 Eugene Mc Bean - Chardon, OH
'69 Ford Mustang Orlando, FL
SS/GA 136.87 04/15/01 Tony Hewes - Reno, NV
'69 Ford Shelby Chandler, AZ
SS/HA 9.74 135.31 04/14/02 Gary Mc Glasson - Los Lunas, NM
'69 Chevy Camaro Boise, ID
SS/IA 9.87 133.32 04/15/01 Gary Mcglasson - Los Lunas, NM
'69 Chevy Camaro Chandler, AZ
SS/JA 10.02 131.68 10/12/02 Angelo Ditocco - Mahopac, NY
'98 Pont Firebird Reading, PA
SS/KA 10.34 127.10 04/06/02 Gary Russell - Sparta, OH
'98 Chevy Camaro Delmar, DE
SS/LA 10.66 122.39 06/08/01 Alex Denysenko - Lyons, IL
'65 Ford Mustang Brainerd, MN
SS/MA 10.96 04/15/01 Rod Stults - Marysville, WA
'64 Chevy Chevelle Chandler, AZ
SS/MA 0.00 05/29/02 Minimum

SS/NA 11.95 0.00 02/25/03 Minimum

SS/OA 11.43 113.36 02/15/03 Wayne Hayes - Elgin, SC
'56 Chev 210 Sedan Darlington, SC
SS/PA 11.68 112.14 11/30/02 Rene Garza - Fort Wayne, IN
'55 Chevy Sedan Montgomery, AL
SS/AC 11.50 0.00 08/24/01 Minimum

SS/BC 11.75 0.00 08/24/01 Minimum

SS/CC 12.38 105.81 04/14/02 James Caughlin - Woodburn, OR
'78 Ford Pinto Boise, ID
SS/DC 13.35 0.00 08/24/01 Minimum

SS/EC 13.85 0.00 01/08/03 Minimum

SS/FC 11.67 10/12/02 Ray Stover - Mt Vernon, OH
'91 Olds Calais Clermont, IN
SS/FC 0.00 11/25/02 Minimum

SS/AX 8.82 150.20 03/23/02 Timothy Cole - Collierville, TN
'96 Chevy Corvette Memphis, TN
SS/BX 9.61 144.32 04/06/02 Richard Oakes - Woolwich Tup, NJ
'92 Chevy Camaro Z28 Delmar, DE
SS/CX 10.24 130.81 10/12/01 Richard Oakes - Woolwich Tup, NJ
'92 Chevy Camaro Reading, PA
SS/DX 8.17 171.31 11/02/02 John Gallina - Henderson, NV
'87 Bui Grand Nat'l Las Vegas, NV
SS/AS 8.72 155.68 05/04/02 George Vignogna - Salem, NY
'97 Chry Sebring West Lebanon, NY
SS/BS 8.87 151.84 04/07/01 Gerry Russo - Saddle River, NJ
'92 Chevy Camaro Atco, NJ
SS/CS 9.76 05/19/02 David Bogner - Kearney, NE
'92 Dodge Daytona Clermont, IN
SS/CS 140.86 08/11/01 David Bogner - Kearney, NE
'92 Dodge Scribner, NE
SS/DS 10.03 133.90 05/25/01 Rich Oakes - Woolwich Tup, NJ
Chev Camaro Z-28 Reading, PA
SS/AM 9.05 0.00 02/25/03 Minimum

SS/BM 8.42 160.65 04/26/02 James Butner - Floyds Knobs, IN
'96 Olds Achieva Joliet, IL
SS/CM 8.91 149.75 05/05/02 Jeffrey Lane - Northbend, WA
'02 Pont Grand Am Mission, BC
SS/DM 9.08 04/26/02 Teresa Butner - Floyds Knobs, IN
'96 Olds Achieva Joliet, IL
SS/DM 147.59 04/15/01 Abe Loewen - Regina, SK
'98 Chevy Grand Am Chandler, AZ
SS/EM 9.45 140.56 04/26/02 Rodney Dorsey - North Judson, IN
'95 Olds Achieva Joliet, IL
SS/FM 9.62 136.77 04/06/02 George Taylor - Baltimore, MD
'67 Chevy Camaro Delmar, DE
SS/GM 9.60 139.83 04/07/01 Rich Oakes - Woolwich Tup, NJ
'92 Chevy Camaro Atco, NJ
GT/A 9.27 144.50 12/08/01 Shaun Le Blanc - Bartlett, TN
'88 Ford Saleen Orlando, FL
GT/B 9.44 141.64 10/12/02 Larry Eagle - Bethesda, OH
'91 Olds Calais Clermont, IN
GT/C 9.39 03/10/01 Charlie Westcott - Parma, MI
'98 Pontiac Grand Am Orlando, FL
GT/C 0.00 04/02/02 Minimum

GT/D 9.41 140.38 11/30/02 Charlie Westcott - Parma, MI
'98 Pont Grand Am Montgomery, AL
GT/E 9.64 136.22 10/12/01 Charlie Westcott - Parma, MI
'99 Pont Grand Am Reading, PA
GT/F 9.74 10/12/02 Charlie Westcott - Parma, MI
'98 Pont Grand Am Reading, PA
GT/F 135.31 08/24/02 Joseph Mendillo - HAMDEN, CT
'69 Chevy Camaro Rising Sun, MD
GT/G 10.55 0.00 01/08/03 Minimum

GT/H 9.94 132.88 11/30/02 Stephen Koch - Mt Wshngtn, KY
'92 Pont Grand Am Montgomery, AL
GT/I 10.27 128.51 03/10/01 Brad Zaskowski - Grand Rapids, MI
'87 Chevy Camaro Orlando, FL
GT/J 10.85 0.00 08/27/02 Minimum

GT/K 10.90 0.00 01/21/02 Minimum

GT/L 11.10 0.00 08/24/01 Minimum

GT/M 11.30 0.00 08/24/01 Minimum

GT/AA 9.15 144.48 12/15/02 Anthony Cretella - Newington, CT
'86 Chevy Camaro Orlando, FL
GT/BA 9.37 140.16 04/14/02 Frank Grossi - Upland, CA
'69 Pont Grand Am Boise, ID
GT/CA 9.53 11/30/02 Richard Decker - Charlestown, IN
'94 Chevy Camaro Montgomery, AL
GT/CA 138.58 10/12/01 Vincent Impastato - Shelby Twp, MI
'86 Chevy Camaro Reading, PA
GT/DA 9.63 136.48 05/25/01 Jim Boburka - Coraopolis, PA
'99 Pontiac Reading, PA
GT/EA 9.75 135.88 04/14/02 Ritch Ahrens - Greeley, CO
'85 Potn Firebird Boise, ID
GT/FA 9.95 134.38 04/06/02 Jeff Roell - Poughquag, NY
'93 Ford Mustang Delmar, DE
GT/GA 10.12 130.89 04/06/02 Wes Leopold - Mc Donald, PA
'87 Dodge Daytona Delmar, DE
GT/HA 10.26 129.90 10/12/01 Dean Ribeiro - Candia, NH
'85 Pont Firebird Reading, PA
GT/IA 11.00 0.00 01/08/03 Minimum

GT/JA 10.40 127.88 06/08/01 Mike Mans - Rogers, MN
'00 Pontiac Firebird Brainerd, MN
GT/KA 10.51 125.63 10/12/01 Bruce Campbell - Waynesville, NC
'88 Pont Firebird Bristol, TN
GT/LA 10.52 125.76 12/08/01 Bruce Campbell - Waynesville, NC
'88 Pont Firebird Orlando, FL
GT/MA 10.84 121.95 11/30/02 Steven Reynolds - Pasadena, TX
'86 Chev Monte Carlo Montgomery, AL
SS/TA 9.30 143.81 10/12/01 Thomas Ciccarone - West Chester, PA
'98 Chevy S-10 Reading, PA
SS/TB 9.20 04/15/01 Camron Kallas - Bluffdale, UT
'00 Chevy S-10 Chandler, AZ
SS/TB 0.00 08/27/02 Minimum

SS/TC 10.10 0.00 01/01/01 Minimum

SS/TD 10.31 131.86 04/06/02 James Zane - Bordentown, NJ
'99 Chevy S-10 Delmar, DE
GT/TA 9.68 11/30/02 Joseph Bohannon - Louisville, KY
'01 Chevy S-10 Montgomery, AL
GT/TA 135.19 04/06/02 John Mc Intyre - Dunnville, ON
'99 Chevy S-10 Delmar, DE
GT/TB 10.65 0.00 02/25/03 Minimum

GT/TC 10.95 0.00 08/24/01 Minimum

GT/TD 10.46 125.08 05/24/02 Joseph Scott - Sunbury, PA
'01 Chevy S-10

Whether you went 5.98 in the 1/8 was really never my issue. I really don't doubt that you have or can go that fast. What I and several others on this forum doubt was just by the means you claimed. Physics and science don't lie. A certain mass require a certain amount of horsepower to propell a vehicle a distance in a specific amount of time. To produce that amount of horsepower requires precision machining, compression, air flow, and effeciancy. 650 HP from a flat tappet 477 inch stock headed TRW motor ain't happening.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

IP: Logged

jsracingbbf
Gearhead

Posts: 1526
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 02-28-2003 01:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jsracingbbf   Click Here to Email jsracingbbf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Not to provoke anything but, cracing's car does run that fast, I've seen it myself. It is also published on Bracketracing news.com. Won some money too I'm pretty sure.
It is a very quick 68 for what he has in the motor.
Why not just respect each other's abilities and the Ford's we race? drive? whatever? I used to race a 351C like KV and I love seeing the 351C's run.
Race, Be happy!

------------------
Jerry
69 Mustang Pro ET Drag
70 Mustang retired former footbrake car
"This is FORD Country! On a Quiet night you can hear a Chevy Rust"

IP: Logged

D&S Induction Systems
Gearhead

Posts: 118
From: Columbia Heights Mn U.S.A.
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 02-28-2003 01:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for D&S Induction Systems   Click Here to Email D&S Induction Systems     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jsracingbbf:
Not to provoke anything but, cracing's car does run that fast, I've seen it myself. It is also published on Bracketracing news.com. Won some money too I'm pretty sure.
It is a very quick 68 for what he has in the motor.
Why not just respect each other's abilities and the Ford's we race? drive? whatever? I used to race a 351C like KV and I love seeing the 351C's run.
Race, Be happy!


I'm not shure how this fight started, but all I have to say is "think out of the box" that Car Craft, Hot Rod and all these other "bolt on babes" got alot of people in. I'm not even talking about cracing's car. Just racing and engine building in general. If sombody raises the bar, meet the chalange and think out of the box.

IP: Logged

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19611
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-28-2003 02:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's not a fight, it's a discussion.
It's not about what's better, big or small block.

The question was asked "why a small block?", and several people tried to answer.
The fact remains, like a chebbie the parts availability if ten fold for a SBF to a BBF.
Cost and supply dictate to some if not most what they can build.
I love all Ford engines. (well most anyway)
I have over the years built many big blocks. Mostly FE's but a fair amount of 385's. Back in the 70's and early 80's you could build a pretty decent 385 for $2k. Today you can't buy a good crank and set of rods for that.
The question was asked and answered. Nobody meant to get off of the topic intentionally and start cheering one over the other.
I think that we all feel that FoMoCo's rule the roost and that's why we're here at M&M in the first place.
I have no doubt that Cracing has a fast car. I do doubt that he goes as fast as he claims with his stated combo. There are a few things he may have left out. That's cool. I make statements in error occasionally and I admit to it. I don't hide behind an edit key. His motor was originally a .030 429 and now it's a 460. If he made a mistake that's cool. I do it all the time. Maybe he also left out the fact that it's has a 3/4 inch arm. Whatever.
I can build a 300 HP 302 for $1500 complete. Will it run 10's in my car? Hell no!
Can anyone build a complete 460 that runs 9.50's in a 3100 lb car for $2k today? Hell no! That was my point.
In the edited post Bullit cams are mentioned. I know those folks real well. IN 1999 they still worked for Comp cams. They weren't even in business yet.
I can say that I built my first SS motor in 1995 for $5k and I did. I can't say that it runs what it does today with a $1400 freshen up. I've got over $5k in the heads now.
I raised some questions about 590 foot clocks. I feel that they were valid. Only in the south is there 1/8 mile track saturation. I have raced at dozens of southern 1/8 mile tracks. More than 50% of them show 590 and 660 foot ET's on the time slips. I didn't make it up. SOmetimes people make mistakes when typing. They don't type what they mean. I do it all the time. I guess that's why we have edit keys and white out. If any of us could build cover to cover 500 HP 460's for FOUR thousand dollars, we'd be rich, much less a 650 HP engine for $1863 and a $1400 freshen up. Like I said, maybe something was just left out. A blower, No2, a Turbo, stroker crank, who knows.

Anyway, BIG or SMALL block, 4,6 or 8 cylinder, if it's a FoMoCo, we love them all. Maybe not equally, but we do love them.
I'm sorry that this turned into a brawl of sorts and appologize if anyone feels offended. It didn't start out to be my intention to do so.
I am very proud of our accomplishments as we have worked very hard to attain them. It's my nature to strike back when someone insults them.
Let's get back to the topic and why there are more SBF's vs BBF's.

Peace.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

IP: Logged

Just Strokin
Gearhead

Posts: 754
From: Tuscaloosa, Alabama
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 02-28-2003 09:05 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Just Strokin   Click Here to Email Just Strokin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, if it weren't for NASCAR and the money Ford dumps into those parts, you couldn't build a SBF as cheaply as you say you can.

So, in the end, why we all be friends and get along?!?!?!?...

------------------
Larry

No fast Fords at this time but one fine cruising 96 F350 CC DRW Power Strokin diesel.
And one rusty 64 Fairlane nick-named the Rust Bucket....And sometimes called the Money Pit...

The sounds of a brain dropping into gear.....
"Buzzzzzz.......Click"

IP: Logged

68DARKHORSE
Gearhead

Posts: 337
From: Austin, Tx
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 02-28-2003 11:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 68DARKHORSE   Click Here to Email 68DARKHORSE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
http://nhra.com/stats/ss_record.html

IP: Logged

Fastymz
Moderator

Posts: 10683
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 02-28-2003 01:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastymz   Click Here to Email Fastymz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jdsgallops:
I am curious if the $5g includes money for the time spent on the 40hrs of port work and machine work stated. Port work isn't done for free, unless your doing it yourself. Or is the 5g money spent on parts only?


Not taking sides here,but I agree 100% porting work is not cheap or easy.I run into guys all the time that say yea my car puts out 500hp and it only costs me $2000 or so.Then you find out that guys dad owns an engine shop.

Not being an engine builder or head porter,heck I just did my 1st cam change.
I like it when people give real quotes to let the NON engines guy like me know how much things really cost.This is not pointed at any one person on here,it's just my opinion.

I did enjoy reading all the info above.This got alittle off the issue but non the less.It is still a great post and as a lot of good info.

Thanks to all for taking the time to share your knowledge with the back yard mechanics like me.


------------------
SCOOP
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs

2.26 60'S
14.9 @ 90.86MPH

65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8"3.40 TracLoc,Cragar SS,Black Suede.

https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Fastymz.html

IP: Logged

64FalconF-16
Gearhead

Posts: 186
From: Republic Of Texas!! Temporarily living in KY
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 02-28-2003 02:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 64FalconF-16   Click Here to Email 64FalconF-16     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hmmm,

All this talk make me want to build my first BBF. I have Dove C heads already...Would that be a good start?

I know I can get 650 HP for under $4K in a all Iron BBM. That is me doing the porting, not paying to have it done. I know cause I have one.

------------------
Rick Austin

64 Pro-Street Falcon
351C 4V 8.1s in 1/8
79 Ford Bronco 4 X 4
400 9.9s in 1/8
2000 F-150 XLT 5.4L
1932 Ford 3 window Coupe
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/64FalconF-16.html

IP: Logged

[email protected]
Gearhead

Posts: 388
From: Lakewood, CO, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 02-28-2003 06:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JCQuinn@work   Click Here to Email JCQuinn@work     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've been wanting to join this party all day but I had a rare day of being busy. It's finally quitting time so I will add my two cents worth.

The original question was "why a small block"? The main reason for me is threefold.

1. A smaller lighter engine will enable a car to be engineered to turn corners more easily. When I race it is drag racing but the car I drive should handle in the corners.

2. Horsepower per pound. Shelby's Mustangs didn't make more power than the Corvettes he beat back in the 60's he had a better HP/Weight ratio than they did.

3. It is a fairly well known fact that it is easier to get higher horsepower per cubic inch ratio with a smaller engine. I used to race in Comp where classes are determined by Pounds per cubic inch. If you look at the cars being run you will find that most are small blocks. Running the same Pounds per cubic inch with two equally prepared engines the smaller engine will always run better. When I was racing they set up the classes so that there were some classes that you could not run a small block in usually with weight minimums. In any class where you could run either, the big blocks didn't have a chance.

If you are building a bracket racer, I agree that a big block is a better choice. You can go pretty fast without turning high RPM. I would use a small block cause I like them but I would have much higher maintenance.

Before you tell me your big block turns high RPM, in comp if you want to win High RPM is 10500. Talk about high maintenance.

John

IP: Logged

cracing
Journeyman

Posts: 55
From: Saltillo Miss. USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 02-28-2003 06:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cracing   Click Here to Email cracing     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
See if you think it possible to run 3.90s in 660ft with a blown sbc in a 63 vette doorslamer. Mitchell Scruggs did in Pensacola Fla.Low 4ohs in Darlington, Nashville,& Huntsville. BTW the comments about Bullet cams,you are right John & a group came from Lunati there, however Bullet has been supplying cams to Speedway for many years up untill Bullet sued them for misrepresentation. Also Hap's of Ames Iowa used them in 95 because my son in law bought an engine with his choice of Bullit cams in it. I'm not going to tell you what he paid, you would't believe it. My post did NOT start out as a 429 & the edit was due to misspelled words & I didnt add the part about the oiling system,it didnt have anything to do whatsoever about engine size. You did not even ask what length track & I didnt state it . I said best ET was 5.98, nowhere did I say 660 ft. It was in truth a 600 ft track & fueled by alky, (but you didnt ask, just jumped me with both feet) , still not bad for what it is. You were the one who jumped in & assumed I was talking about 660 ft. I do not care if you believe or not, I & those who really know were there. I saw what others were saying about you on three other sites & couldn't believe that a fellow Ford guy would really act that way, Boy! Was I ever wrong!

IP: Logged

D&S Induction Systems
Gearhead

Posts: 118
From: Columbia Heights Mn U.S.A.
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 02-28-2003 06:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for D&S Induction Systems   Click Here to Email D&S Induction Systems     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jdsgallops:
I am curious if the $5g includes money for the time spent on the 40hrs of port work and machine work stated. Port work isn't done for free, unless your doing it yourself. Or is the 5g money spent on parts only?


No, the port work I did my self. We spent 5k on the parts etc... This was a test engine I did and we plan to run it in the company pulling truck. This will show if the engine and heads will hold up. If I were to sell this set up some day the port work would cost aprox 1300.00 extra.

The entire induction system has been reworked. From the carb mounting surface on the intake to the header/mfld. mounting surface on the heads.

I have a picture of the chambers but have no idea how to post photo's in this forum.

IP: Logged

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19611
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-28-2003 07:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cracing:
See if you think it possible to run 3.90s in 660ft with a blown sbc in a 63 vette doorslamer. Mitchell Scruggs did in Pensacola Fla.Low 4ohs in Darlington, Nashville,& Huntsville. BTW the comments about Bullet cams,you are right John & a group came from Lunati there, however Bullet has been supplying cams to Speedway for many years up untill Bullet sued them for misrepresentation. Also Hap's of Ames Iowa used them in 95 because my son in law bought an engine with his choice of Bullit cams in it. I'm not going to tell you what he paid, you would't believe it. My post did NOT start out as a 429 & the edit was due to misspelled words & I didnt add the part about the oiling system,it didnt have anything to do whatsoever about engine size. You did not even ask what length track & I didnt state it . I said best ET was 5.98, nowhere did I say 660 ft. It was in truth a 600 ft track & fueled by alky, (but you didnt ask, just jumped me with both feet) , still not bad for what it is. You were the one who jumped in & assumed I was talking about 660 ft. I do not care if you believe or not, I & those who really know were there. I saw what others were saying about you on three other sites & couldn't believe that a fellow Ford guy would really act that way, Boy! Was I ever wrong!

You weren't wrong.

I know you still love me.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

IP: Logged

mech99_1999
Journeyman

Posts: 1
From: tupelo,ms
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 02-28-2003 09:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mech99_1999   Click Here to Email mech99_1999     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
just a note to cracing 68 mustang it will do what he said and i have seen it run. I also helped him build this motor with the parts he stated. Guess we had our sh-t together when we built this 460 !!!!! ps we dont have all this flow equipment just good ole boy common sense

IP: Logged

Mike_R
Gearhead

Posts: 150
From: Indianapolis, IN 46237
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 02-28-2003 10:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mike_R   Click Here to Email Mike_R     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't want to get into the discussion of what's better between a small block and big block because to me, it totally depends on what kind of car you drive. I would have no problem building a smallblock for a mustang, but I drive a 70 torino cobra, so it has to be a big block 385 series.

But... I want to back up what the other guy is saying about his 460 because mine is nearly identical. My engine has right around $3500 total investment.

460 ci (yes standard bore) L2443 TRW dome pistons, 12.3 to 1 compression, stock rods, stock crank, stock block, CJ iron heads (heavily ported by me), blue thunder dual plane intake, 1050 holley, 260/272 .666"/.688" custom street roller cam, 2-1/8" hooker headers.

In the 4000 lb Torino (w/driver) it pulls 125 MPH through the 1/4 mile. You can do the calculations and I think you'll find that it is well past the 600 hp mark. Not trying to brag, just giving my example.

I'm getting ready to build a 521 stroker combo that should be between 700 and 800 horsepower at the flywheel and it will be dyno tested. My total investment in this engine will be right at $5000.

Again this is not to try and prove big block is better than small block. I have a ton of respect for what you guys accomplish with those small blocks. I'm just trying to backup the satements that a very powerful 385 series can be built for a reasonable price. The big key is using iron heads and being able to port them yourself.

IP: Logged

jdsgallops
Gearhead

Posts: 326
From: Naples, FL
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 03-01-2003 01:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jdsgallops   Click Here to Email jdsgallops     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mike_R:

385 series can be built for a reasonable price. The big key is using iron heads and being able to port them yourself.

I think these are the smartest words in this entire thread. Though even with my porting experience on small block heads I don't know that I could tackle a set of 385 heads with the same results. They are quite a different design, though most theory would translate regardless.

IP: Logged

jdsgallops
Gearhead

Posts: 326
From: Naples, FL
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 03-01-2003 01:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jdsgallops   Click Here to Email jdsgallops     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by D&S Induction Systems:

I will argue this point with anybody about costs of building a BB vs. SB. We can get 640 HP out of a .030 over 460 using D3 heads, torker-II intake, comp cams 2xx-S and some other stuff I don't want to say. Just think of the "$" you would have to stick into a SB to get 640 HP out of it.

Hmmmmmm Well now that you say the posrt work would cost $1300 that puts your engine $ amount at $6300. Just going off the top of my head a 408 shortblock goes for about $3500, a set of victor jr heads for about $1300 throw in a nice solid roller cam to turn about 7000rpm($1000) super victor intake($250) and I think that 640hp is possible for about the same budget as your $6300 big block, without all the hassles of porting stock heads, lighter to boot too. Only major problem I see with the 408 setup would be reliablity. A $3500 408 shortblock won't have a forged crank which at the rpm needed to get 600+ out of it is not going to be real durable.
The difference between big block and small block may be better stated as the same power level at a more managable rpm.

IP: Logged

68DARKHORSE
Gearhead

Posts: 337
From: Austin, Tx
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 03-01-2003 02:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 68DARKHORSE   Click Here to Email 68DARKHORSE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mike_R:

I'm getting ready to build a 521 stroker combo that should be between 700 and 800 horsepower at the flywheel and it will be dyno tested. My total investment in this engine will be right at $5000.

The big key is using iron heads and being able to port them yourself.


My 408W will cost well under $4k(including the Vic Jr heads). The only thing not after market is the block.

Porting heads yourself is not free. By using aftermarket heads I have an xtra 40 hours(according to a previous post) to spend with my family.

Will I have 700hp? No, but I will have a 500hp streetcar that handles like an I6 with suspension mods.

IP: Logged

itlbrnmoff
Gearhead

Posts: 670
From: Indianapolis,IN.USA
Registered: Nov 2002

posted 03-01-2003 03:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for itlbrnmoff   Click Here to Email itlbrnmoff     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
He he he... This has been the best display of bench racing I've noticed so far on M&M...Got any beers left?
I'm guessing my 306 rebuild back in '96 for $1200 might have about 285 HP...I could be wrong...
It's probably closer to 250 HP...unless the factory '83 302HO 4bbl. was under-rated at 175 HP?
Anyhow, I learned alot from this bench racing session...BB/SB? I'll stick with the cheapest, lightest, and easiest to work with I guess...
Do I have any speed claims? I smoked a Slomaro on the street once...
Will I ever make any bogus claims on M&M?
H3LL NO!! You guys are too intense and knowledgeable for the average Joe Backyard like me...
Now everybody kiss and make up and have at it again tomorrow...

------------------

Low Dollar 1983 Mustang GT W/T-tops...
306 4bbl. T-5 3.45 trac-loc...it'll burn 'em off
1988 Lincoln LSC
5.0 auto full power

IP: Logged

64FalconF-16
Gearhead

Posts: 186
From: Republic Of Texas!! Temporarily living in KY
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 03-03-2003 01:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 64FalconF-16   Click Here to Email 64FalconF-16     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ok, I crunched some numbers on this. Let's compare..

I think I can build a 500+HP 500+ft/TQ or so BBF for under $4k. Street and/or Strip.

Get a 460 .30 over shortblock from a reputable local rebuilder. $850.00 with core.

Cam and lifters $200.00 Solid lift. .550 lift or so .280 to .290 duration.

Dove C Iron heads from ebay. $300.00
Machine shop rebuild. $700.00

Should make around 10-10.5/1 compression.

Single plane intake $300.00

Rebuildable 750 DP swap meet. $50.00
Proform body Jegs. $106.00
Misc carb parts - $50.00

Scorpion Roller rockers = $219.00 from Alex

Push rods, guideplates, studs= +/-$120.00

Headers = +/-$400.00.

Swap meet valve covers, Oil Pan. misc brackets etc.. - $300.00

Flywheel = $100.00

Gasket set, head bolts etc.. - $120.00

Total - $3815.00

See anything I missed?

Now, how much to build the same HP/TQ in a SBF?

Kid, Clevelands don't count. They are too awesome to be considered in this option!!!

------------------
Rick Austin

64 Pro-Street Falcon
351C 4V 8.1s in 1/8
79 Ford Bronco 4 X 4
400 9.9s in 1/8
2000 F-150 XLT 5.4L
1932 Ford 3 window Coupe
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/64FalconF-16.html

IP: Logged

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19611
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 03-03-2003 02:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 64FalconF-16:
Ok, I crunched some numbers on this. Let's compare..

I think I can build a 500+HP 500+ft/TQ or so BBF for under $4k. Street and/or Strip.

Get a 460 .30 over shortblock from a reputable local rebuilder. $850.00 with core.

Cam and lifters $200.00 Solid lift. .550 lift or so .280 to .290 duration.

Dove C Iron heads from ebay. $300.00
Machine shop rebuild. $700.00

Should make around 10-10.5/1 compression.

Single plane intake $300.00

Rebuildable 750 DP swap meet. $50.00
Proform body Jegs. $106.00
Misc carb parts - $50.00

Scorpion Roller rockers = $219.00 from Alex

Push rods, guideplates, studs= +/-$120.00

Headers = +/-$400.00.

Swap meet valve covers, Oil Pan. misc brackets etc.. - $300.00

Flywheel = $100.00

Gasket set, head bolts etc.. - $120.00

Total - $3815.00

See anything I missed?

Now, how much to build the same HP/TQ in a SBF?

Kid, Clevelands don't count. They are too awesome to be considered in this option!!!



Yeah, that's cool and all , but......they are still just too damn BIG!



------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

IP: Logged

jsracingbbf
Gearhead

Posts: 1526
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 03-03-2003 10:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jsracingbbf   Click Here to Email jsracingbbf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
Yeah, that's cool and all , but......they are still just too damn BIG!

ALEX! READ YOUR RULE #3

JS

IP: Logged

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19611
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 03-03-2003 11:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you could build a 477 inch SBF then you might be onto something.
External dimentions are just TOO BIG!

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

IP: Logged

Mpcoluv
Gearhead

Posts: 906
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 03-04-2003 07:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mpcoluv   Click Here to Email Mpcoluv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
If you could build a 477 inch SBF then you might be onto something.
External dimentions are just TOO BIG!


How about a Dart 351W 9.5 block with 4.185 bore, and 4.250 stroke?
467 inches.....
May not live long at high rpms though....

IP: Logged

jdsgallops
Gearhead

Posts: 326
From: Naples, FL
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 03-04-2003 08:58 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jdsgallops   Click Here to Email jdsgallops     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 64FalconF-16:
OkNow, how much to build the same HP/TQ in a SBF?

If you want to compare, you have to use used parts to compare fairly. To get those kind of numbers from a small block you would need to stroke to a 408 for the torque number, 500hp is just a matter of rpm. To build a 408 means all new parts. Not a fair comparision. The only way to really truly compare is to build both engines and dyno them both, no hypothetical stuff. Used parts also have no known set value, one mans treasure is another mans garbage. This makes it extremely difficult to compare fairly. A better question would be "how much HP and TRQ can you build i na small block for xxx dollars?"

IP: Logged

[email protected]
Gearhead

Posts: 388
From: Lakewood, CO, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 03-04-2003 11:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for JCQuinn@work   Click Here to Email JCQuinn@work     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The measure of a race car is not how much power it makes. It is how quick it gets to the finish line.

Small blocks make more HP/pound and are easier to hook up. If you are going to issue a challenge it should include performance at the track not numbers on a dyno.

It's an interesting challenge, if my current project gets finished I will post some approximate cost and ET numbers.

John

IP: Logged

bluestreek
Gearhead

Posts: 1202
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 03-04-2003 11:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bluestreek   Click Here to Email bluestreek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was going to say something else but it got way too complicated.
If you're like me, you just build what you can get your hands and usually what your most familiar with. Experience with building any classic motor to be reliable at over 500HP is worth way more than the actual cost .

IP: Logged

Mpcoluv
Gearhead

Posts: 906
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 03-04-2003 12:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mpcoluv   Click Here to Email Mpcoluv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jdsgallops:
If you want to compare, you have to use used parts to compare fairly. To get those kind of numbers from a small block you would need to stroke to a 408 for the torque number, 500hp is just a matter of rpm. To build a 408 means all new parts. Not a fair comparision. The only way to really truly compare is to build both engines and dyno them both, no hypothetical stuff. Used parts also have no known set value, one mans treasure is another mans garbage. This makes it extremely difficult to compare fairly. A better question would be "how much HP and TRQ can you build i na small block for xxx dollars?"

A local guy has built a 393W that made 515hp and 505 or so ft/lbs using relatively low buck parts.
Scat crank, stock rods w/arp bolts, KB hyper pistons, total seal gapless top rings, Canfield 192cc heads, roller rockers, and a Custom comp (based on the XE282hr)hyd roller cam. Victor Jr intake and BG Demon 750 carb.
Of course it was run on the dyno for 2 days to get those numbers.
I would guess that that motor cost around 3500 to $4000....

IP: Logged

Mike_R
Gearhead

Posts: 150
From: Indianapolis, IN 46237
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 03-04-2003 01:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mike_R   Click Here to Email Mike_R     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm a 385 series guy through and through, and that's pretty much all that I mess with because I drive a tank for a car... but I can't criticize a windsor small block.

I remember in the 70's and 80's there were virtually no parts available for these engines and there were very few guys who knew how to make them run really strong. It's hard to deny how windsors have taken over the scene in the last 10 to 15 years though. The popularity and part availability is incredible. I never thought I'd see the day where the smallblock ford dethroned the smallblock chevy in popularity. I'm glad because Fords rule and chevys suck. I may be just a nostalgiac kind of guy, but I like all the ford whether they are windsor, cleveland, FE, or 385 as long as it's not a chevy. I just build the one I know how to build.

IP: Logged

64FalconF-16
Gearhead

Posts: 186
From: Republic Of Texas!! Temporarily living in KY
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 03-04-2003 02:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 64FalconF-16   Click Here to Email 64FalconF-16     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have seen it time and time again.
Stroked small blocks trying to run with the big blocks, and Blowing the side out of the block trying to do it.

Don't get me wrong I love a challenge. But if I were building another race car I would not start with a small block unless I wanted to run with the small blocks.

I tried Small Blocks years ago and finally went with a Big cause I got tired of spending money to run against BBs and lose. I have never regretted it. They last longer. I shift at 5800 RPMs. I have only freshed up the bottom end once in 4 years.

Big Blocks Rule!!

IP: Logged

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19611
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 03-04-2003 02:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You know what?
We should consider a new thread with a "budget" big block build up and see just how expensive or inexpensive it is.
Does anyone have the resourses or inclanation?

If so I have a proposal so let's see how serious some of you BBF guys really are?

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

IP: Logged

Inbred-Jed
Journeyman

Posts: 31
From: Chester, Wv 26034
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 03-04-2003 04:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Inbred-Jed     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You can't compare small blocks to big blocks, its like comparing apples to oranges. Each engine has its own place in the market. If you want to build a stout little streeter where funds and handling of the car are an issue, a smallblock would be great. If you want to build a stout streeter that weighs 4000 lbs, build a bigblock. Same goes for racing. If you have the money to rev and beat 600 horsepower out of a smallblock by all means do it(I would). If you dont have the money and you want a reliable, relatively low reving, 600 HP bracket racer you can't beat the BB. I see this all the time on the 385 forum with guys trying to campare Edelbrock CJ heads to A460's and Bluethunders(BBC port). Sure the bluethunders are a better head for racing or in a vehicle where the exhaust wont cause you problems. They would be an impossible choice for my 67 fastback because you cant buy headers for them. The Edelbrocks used stock port locations and flow like a set of ported cast iron heads so that saved me work and i can buy headers for this combo. Like I said before everything has its place in the market. Funny I thought we should be talking about how to improve these engines to crush those chevy and mopar guys.

IP: Logged

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 19611
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 03-04-2003 04:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Welcome to M&M Jed !

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

IP: Logged

Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 1368
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 03-04-2003 04:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
WELCOME TO M&M, JED!!!


quote:
Originally posted by Inbred-Jed:

.....Funny, I thought we should be talking about how to improve these engines to crush those chevy and mopar guys!

...well, maybe not CRUSH them, but how about just embarrass the HE!! outta them every time they pull up in the bleach box beside a FoMoCo product!

Ryan

------------------
The '3-Pedal Attitude' Kid
In a '69 FB w/ 4-spd'd 306",
but the 460+ is on the stand!

IP: Logged

steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 6150
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 03-04-2003 05:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Welcome Jed!

But, if we crush all the Chebbies and Mopars, all we'll have left to race is Toyotas and Hondas.

SteveW

IP: Logged

All times are ET (US)

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | Mustangsandmore Front Page

Copyright 2003, Steve LaRiviere. All Rights Reserved.


Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.47d

Amazon Honor System Click Here to Pay Learn More

[Build a free Mustangsandmore.ws Home Page!]

[About M&M][Acronyms][Calendar][Chat][Classifieds] [Links] [Members' Pics] [M&M Mug Shots] [Tech] [ Mustangsandmore.com Bookstore] [Advertise on Mustangsandmore.com] [Mustangsandmore.com T-Shirts]