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Author	Topic: Bigger ain't always better!
Moneymaker Administrator Posts: 21725 From: Lyons, IL, USA Registered: May 99	posted 02-04-2003 01:09 PM We did some header testing over the weekend on the dyno. I'll get into specifics later, but small valves = small tubes. PERIOD! 1 3/4 lost 15 ft lbs of torque and 10 HP over 1 5/8 and that's on a 9000 RPM engine! A good step header will always out perform any single diameter tube header on a race engine. (not top fuel or big blown stuff you smart a$$es lol) ------------------ Alex Denysenko Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver MCA member# 53321 NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03 Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 Professional Manwhore The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked." Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!" Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!" www.moneymakerracing.com IP: Logged
SteveLaRiviere Administrator Posts: 37258 From: Saco, Maine Registered: May 99	posted 02-04-2003 01:23 PM Smart a$$es? Us? Sounds like there's a formula you can use for header tube sizing. ------------------ '70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150 Please remember our sponsors, Mustangs Plus, NPD, Osborn Reproductions, MyFordPerformance.com, and FordRamAir.com IP: Logged
Kyle Gearhead Posts: 293 From: Sumner, WA Registered: Dec 2001	posted 02-04-2003 02:11 PM Sorry for the ignorance, but why is a step header better? IP: Logged
BlueMule Gearhead Posts: 1147 From: Kent Island, MD USA Registered: Sep 2002	posted 02-04-2003 02:20 PM something way back... didn't collector length play into the equation too? You're sparking old forgotten memories. ------------------ -Paul 70 Mach1 351C 79 Ranchero GT 97 Expedition XLT 5.4 00 SVT f150 Lightning 4149 of 4966 Born on: 06/26/2000 'life's tough... it's tougher if you're stupid.' IP: Logged
JCQuinn@work Gearhead Posts: 542 From: Lakewood, CO, USA Registered: Jun 2001	posted 02-04-2003 04:25 PM Alex, how much better is a step header? On his web site Jere Stahl says the step header is worth only 1% gain in certain rpm bands and not worth the extra money. Since he sells both stepped and non stepped headers I give him a certain amount of credibility. But you are a current record holder so I give you a lot of credibility. On the Superstock forum I noticed you have some cheap headers for Foxes. As soon as my tax refund shows up I will order a set from you. John IP: Logged
Moneymaker Administrator Posts: 21725 From: Lyons, IL, USA Registered: May 99	posted 02-04-2003 05:47 PM I place a lot of credance in Jere's opinion as he pretty much invented the tuned header in the early 60's. One thing that I may point out is that Stahl now caters to the dizzy crowd which operate in a very narrow power band. Short track dirt or asphalt engines stay in the same RPM range and do not change gears. Most of their stuff is of the 180 degree configuration and designed for off the corner torque. They do not change weight loads down track. They do not go through 3 or 4 gears to 8000 RPM in 1/8 of a mile, then traverse another 1/8 of a mile wide open to reach that same 8000 RPM. 90% or more of your record holding small blocks (regardless of make) all have step headers with a merge style collector. ------------------ Alex Denysenko Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver MCA member# 53321 NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03 Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 Professional Manwhore The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked." Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!" Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!" www.moneymakerracing.com IP: Logged
Dubz Gearhead Posts: 1048 From: Manitoba Canada Registered: Oct 2002	posted 02-04-2003 07:20 PM quote: Originally posted by Moneymaker: A good step header will always out perform any single diameter tube header on a race engine. so who sells good step headers? IP: Logged
V8 Thumper Gearhead Posts: 4044 From: Orange, Ca. United States of America Registered: Dec 2001	posted 02-04-2003 07:49 PM I briefly concidered having a set of 1 3/4" custom built ($$$ $$$), but decided on 6111-1's. Boy, am I glad I didn't think I was smart enough to re-invent the wheel Is Arkansas cold this time of year? ------------------ 1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9" All Blue Oval, no blue bottle http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/V8Thumper.html IP: Logged
Moneymaker Administrator Posts: 21725 From: Lyons, IL, USA Registered: May 99	posted 02-04-2003 08:20 PM Arkansas was about 70 degrees, windy as all hell and 90% humidity. Step headers are all custom made by builders. ------------------ Alex Denysenko Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver MCA member# 53321 NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03 Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 Professional Manwhore The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked." Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!" Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!" www.moneymakerracing.com IP: Logged
V8 Thumper Gearhead Posts: 4044 From: Orange, Ca. United States of America Registered: Dec 2001	posted 02-04-2003 10:21 PM quote: Originally posted by Moneymaker: Arkansas was about 70 degrees, windy as all hell and 90% humidity. Sounds like SoCal, except for the humidity Where I'm going its been getting down to 34 ------------------ 1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9" All Blue Oval, no blue bottle http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/V8Thumper.html IP: Logged
Fastymz Moderator Posts: 14201 From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240 Registered: Apr 2001	posted 02-05-2003 12:39 AM Not to change the subject but have you done any testing with short tubes vs long tube hedders on the same brand. If so what are longs tube worth and were do they both work best. There are smart a$$es on here. ------------------ SCOOP oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 2.26 60'S 14.9 @ 90.86MPH 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8"3.40 TracLoc,Cragar SS,Black Suede. https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Fastymz.html IP: Logged
kid vishus Gearhead Posts: 5248 From: middle of NC Registered: Oct 2000	posted 02-05-2003 10:49 AM What do you think would be a good hedder for my car then? Or would that boil down to more of a "what would fit" scenerio since I dont have a lot of room for really big tubes? IP: Logged
Moneymaker Administrator Posts: 21725 From: Lyons, IL, USA Registered: May 99	posted 02-05-2003 12:48 PM Long tubes will ALWAYS out perform ANY short tube header. Short tube headers are a compromise for fit and space considerations. Rob, send me privatly or post here if you don't mind sharing your valve sizes. Don't you have Hooker 2 inch currantly? ------------------ Alex Denysenko Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver MCA member# 53321 NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03 Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 Professional Manwhore The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked." Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!" Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!" www.moneymakerracing.com IP: Logged
Hans olsson Gearhead Posts: 385 From: Sweden Registered: Apr 2000	posted 02-05-2003 01:21 PM This is what we use. Ford/Mercury: 1971-73 351C Mustang/Cougar, 2*34 in. primary tubes, 3 1/2 in. collectors, Super Competition headers Maybe we could buy something better. ------------------ 71 Mach1 351c E/SA 11.89-110 mph F/SA 11.76-111 mph [This message has been edited by Hans olsson (edited 02-05-2003).] IP: Logged
kid vishus Gearhead Posts: 5248 From: middle of NC Registered: Oct 2000	posted 02-05-2003 05:29 PM Standard 4v size; 2.19 intakes, 1.71 exhuast. My current hedders are Hooker Super Comps with 1 7/8" primaries, and 3 1/2" collectors. They were the biggest tube readliy available hedder I could find. The only other hedders that are "production" by any means are Hedmans that come with 2 1/8" primaries, but I think they are made to order, and not stocked. And for a "catalog" hedder, they are kind of pricey, over $600 uncoated I believe. Not sure if it matters, but my exhaust flows 229 cfm @ .700. Thanks Alx. IP: Logged
D&S Induction Systems Gearhead Posts: 118 From: Columbia Heights Mn U.S.A. Registered: Feb 2003	posted 02-05-2003 08:32 PM My 2 cents.. I agree, bigger isn't always better. But there is no "black and white" in engine building, so I wouldn't go as far as to say "but small valves = small tubes. PERIOD!" Manifold type, runner leingth & area, valve overlap, chamber design, L.D.A., forced induction, etc.. all would come into play in how "large" the header pipe and collector size should be. In most cases I agree. Having large dia. Ex. headers and small valves are a no, no. Also, what was the set up on the engine you tested. (ie. cam,heads,valve size, etc.) Thanks, Justin IP: Logged
clevelandstyle Gearhead Posts: 800 From: Connersville, IN Registered: Jul 2001	posted 02-05-2003 09:50 PM quote: Originally posted by D&S Induction Systems: Also, what was the set up on the engine you tested. (ie. cam,heads,valve size, etc.) Thanks, Justin HA HA! Now there is a loaded question. Let's hear it, Alex. ------------------ Ben Grabber Green '70 Mach I 351C 4V Robbin Egg Blue '79 Fairmont 351C 4V IP: Logged
Moneymaker Administrator Posts: 21725 From: Lyons, IL, USA Registered: May 99	posted 02-05-2003 10:04 PM Rob, your exhaust valves are almost as big as my intakes. I really think that your applications could stand a 2 inch primary tube with a 3.5 collector. As far as the combo I tested, it's pretty well scienced out. Small engine, big cam, big intake, small valves, small carb, lot's of RPM. If you try and put a large tube header on a small valve engine without any type of reversion you will almost always lose HP and torque. I don't know about Fiat's or Honda's though. ------------------ Alex Denysenko Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver MCA member# 53321 NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03 Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 Professional Manwhore The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked." Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!" Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!" www.moneymakerracing.com IP: Logged

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