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Author Topic:   Bigger ain't always better!
Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 21725
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-04-2003 01:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We did some header testing over the weekend on the dyno.
I'll get into specifics later, but small valves = small tubes. PERIOD!
1 3/4 lost 15 ft lbs of torque and 10 HP over 1 5/8 and that's on a 9000 RPM engine!
A good step header will always out perform any single diameter tube header on a race engine. (not top fuel or big blown stuff you smart a$$es lol)

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 37258
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 02-04-2003 01:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Smart a$$es? Us?

Sounds like there's a formula you can use for header tube sizing.

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150

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Kyle
Gearhead

Posts: 293
From: Sumner, WA
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 02-04-2003 02:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kyle   Click Here to Email Kyle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry for the ignorance, but why is a step header better?

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BlueMule
Gearhead

Posts: 1147
From: Kent Island, MD USA
Registered: Sep 2002

posted 02-04-2003 02:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BlueMule   Click Here to Email BlueMule     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
something way back...
didn't collector length play into the equation too?

You're sparking old forgotten memories.

------------------
-Paul

70 Mach1 351C
79 Ranchero GT
97 Expedition XLT 5.4
00 SVT f150 Lightning 4149 of 4966 Born on: 06/26/2000

'life's tough... it's tougher if you're stupid.'

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[email protected]
Gearhead

Posts: 542
From: Lakewood, CO, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 02-04-2003 04:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JCQuinn@work   Click Here to Email JCQuinn@work     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alex, how much better is a step header? On his web site Jere Stahl says the step header is worth only 1% gain in certain rpm bands and not worth the extra money. Since he sells both stepped and non stepped headers I give him a certain amount of credibility. But you are a current record holder so I give you a lot of credibility.

On the Superstock forum I noticed you have some cheap headers for Foxes. As soon as my tax refund shows up I will order a set from you.

John

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 21725
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-04-2003 05:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I place a lot of credance in Jere's opinion as he pretty much invented the tuned header in the early 60's.

One thing that I may point out is that Stahl now caters to the dizzy crowd which operate in a very narrow power band. Short track dirt or asphalt engines stay in the same RPM range and do not change gears. Most of their stuff is of the 180 degree configuration and designed for off the corner torque. They do not change weight loads down track. They do not go through 3 or 4 gears to 8000 RPM in 1/8 of a mile, then traverse another 1/8 of a mile wide open to reach that same 8000 RPM.

90% or more of your record holding small blocks (regardless of make) all have step headers with a merge style collector.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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Dubz
Gearhead

Posts: 1048
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 02-04-2003 07:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dubz   Click Here to Email Dubz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
A good step header will always out perform any single diameter tube header on a race engine.

so who sells good step headers?

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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 4044
From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 02-04-2003 07:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I briefly concidered having a set of 1 3/4" custom built ($$$ $$$), but decided on 6111-1's. Boy, am I glad I didn't think I was smart enough to re-invent the wheel

Is Arkansas cold this time of year?

------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9"

All Blue Oval, no blue bottle
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/V8Thumper.html

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 21725
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-04-2003 08:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Arkansas was about 70 degrees, windy as all hell and 90% humidity.
Step headers are all custom made by builders.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 4044
From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 02-04-2003 10:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
Arkansas was about 70 degrees, windy as all hell and 90% humidity.

Sounds like SoCal, except for the humidity

Where I'm going its been getting down to 34

------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9"

All Blue Oval, no blue bottle
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/V8Thumper.html

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Fastymz
Moderator

Posts: 14201
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 02-05-2003 12:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastymz   Click Here to Email Fastymz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Not to change the subject but have you done any testing with short tubes vs long tube hedders on the same brand.

If so what are longs tube worth and were do they both work best.

There are smart a$$es on here.

------------------
SCOOP
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs

2.26 60'S
14.9 @ 90.86MPH

65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8"3.40 TracLoc,Cragar SS,Black Suede.

https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Fastymz.html

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 5248
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 02-05-2003 10:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What do you think would be a good hedder for my car then? Or would that boil down to more of a "what would fit" scenerio since I dont have a lot of room for really big tubes?

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 21725
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-05-2003 12:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Long tubes will ALWAYS out perform ANY short tube header. Short tube headers are a compromise for fit and space considerations.

Rob, send me privatly or post here if you don't mind sharing your valve sizes. Don't you have Hooker 2 inch currantly?

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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Hans olsson
Gearhead

Posts: 385
From: Sweden
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 02-05-2003 01:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hans olsson   Click Here to Email Hans olsson     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is what we use.
Ford/Mercury: 1971-73 351C Mustang/Cougar, 2*34 in. primary tubes, 3 1/2 in. collectors, Super Competition headers

Maybe we could buy something better.


------------------

  • 71 Mach1 351c
  • E/SA 11.89-110 mph
  • F/SA 11.76-111 mph

[This message has been edited by Hans olsson (edited 02-05-2003).]

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 5248
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 02-05-2003 05:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Standard 4v size; 2.19 intakes, 1.71 exhuast.

My current hedders are Hooker Super Comps with 1 7/8" primaries, and 3 1/2" collectors. They were the biggest tube readliy available hedder I could find. The only other hedders that are "production" by any means are Hedmans that come with 2 1/8" primaries, but I think they are made to order, and not stocked. And for a "catalog" hedder, they are kind of pricey, over $600 uncoated I believe.

Not sure if it matters, but my exhaust flows 229 cfm @ .700.

Thanks Alx.

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D&S Induction Systems
Gearhead

Posts: 118
From: Columbia Heights Mn U.S.A.
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 02-05-2003 08:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for D&S Induction Systems   Click Here to Email D&S Induction Systems     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My 2 cents..
I agree, bigger isn't always better. But there is no "black and white" in engine building, so I wouldn't go as far as to say
"but small valves = small tubes. PERIOD!" Manifold type, runner leingth & area, valve overlap, chamber design, L.D.A., forced induction, etc.. all would come into play in how "large" the header pipe and collector size should be.

In most cases I agree. Having large dia. Ex. headers and small valves are a no, no.

Also, what was the set up on the engine you tested. (ie. cam,heads,valve size, etc.)

Thanks,
Justin

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clevelandstyle
Gearhead

Posts: 800
From: Connersville, IN
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 02-05-2003 09:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for clevelandstyle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by D&S Induction Systems:

Also, what was the set up on the engine you tested. (ie. cam,heads,valve size, etc.)

Thanks,
Justin



HA HA! Now there is a loaded question. Let's hear it, Alex.

------------------
Ben
Grabber Green '70 Mach I 351C 4V
Robbin Egg Blue '79 Fairmont 351C 4V

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 21725
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-05-2003 10:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Rob, your exhaust valves are almost as big as my intakes.
I really think that your applications could stand a 2 inch primary tube with a 3.5 collector.


As far as the combo I tested, it's pretty well scienced out.
Small engine, big cam, big intake, small valves, small carb, lot's of RPM. If you try and put a large tube header on a small valve engine without any type of reversion you will almost always lose HP and torque. I don't know about Fiat's or Honda's though.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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