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Author Topic:   alum heads vs. cast iron
stroker man
Gearhead

Posts: 143
From: Denville NJ USA
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 01-24-2003 10:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for stroker man   Click Here to Email stroker man     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
wondering why nobody uses cast iron heads for there street cars, i was told by a engine builder and head porter that in the combustion chamber heat is what makes the most power, the explosion, where alum would not hold in heat,i always used cast iron heads on my motors, unless its a full race head. a lot of 351c guys use cast iron heads on their motors,just wondering, anybody have any thing to add?

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MrWesson22
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Posts: 1212
From: Dacula, GA
Registered: Sep 2000

posted 01-24-2003 11:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MrWesson22   Click Here to Email MrWesson22     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Iron makes more power all things being equal. But with the heat dissipation of aluminum, you can just bump the CR up a little to compensate for the difference. Aluminum is lighter and easier to port. Most of the good aftermarket heads are aluminum. Cleveland guys mostly use iron because they're mostly using modified factory heads.

------------------
Neal

69 Gulfstream Aqua Grande
351C/4sp
https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/MrWesson22.html

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jsracingbbf
Gearhead

Posts: 2160
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 01-24-2003 11:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jsracingbbf   Click Here to Email jsracingbbf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Aluminum is also much easier to repair.

------------------
Jerry
69 Mustang Pro ET Drag
70 Mustang retired former footbrake car
"Even a Blind Hog can find an acorn every now and then"

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steve'66
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Posts: 7226
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
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posted 01-25-2003 01:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You could have your cast heads ported with a "stage 3 job" and bigger valves, if they can make them flow like a VicJr aluminum head. It'll work fine, but might cost more that selling yor World heads and buying Vic Jrs. Your call on that one,

SteveW

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stroker man
Gearhead

Posts: 143
From: Denville NJ USA
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 01-25-2003 07:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for stroker man   Click Here to Email stroker man     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
well i had my heads checked when i took them off, sr cast iron and they are no good, so much for the cnc port job, more like snow job,had these heads cnc ported 4 yrs ago when i didnt know s--- about cyclinder heads, just put them on the 408, now i know why i have 375 hp in a stroker, you should see these heads how they were ported, my old windsors heads that my friend did look better then these heads, they dont flow for s---!!very bad port work, rough and horrible valve job, the guy said he cant even fix the seats cut wrong, flashings in all the ports, over ported the intakes in the first 2 inches then they stopped and left them as is, can you say pissed! my engine guy who was supposed to send these heads out is going to get a ear full, i might bring the stupid heads down so he can look himself, thats why im thinking alum vs cast iron, need the most power for the buck.

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Mpcoluv
Gearhead

Posts: 1144
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 01-25-2003 01:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mpcoluv   Click Here to Email Mpcoluv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by stroker man:
well i had my heads checked when i took them off, sr cast iron and they are no good, so much for the cnc port job, more like snow job,had these heads cnc ported 4 yrs ago when i didnt know s--- about cyclinder heads, just put them on the 408, now i know why i have 375 hp in a stroker, you should see these heads how they were ported, my old windsors heads that my friend did look better then these heads, they dont flow for s---!!very bad port work, rough and horrible valve job, the guy said he cant even fix the seats cut wrong, flashings in all the ports, over ported the intakes in the first 2 inches then they stopped and left them as is, can you say pissed! my engine guy who was supposed to send these heads out is going to get a ear full, i might bring the stupid heads down so he can look himself, thats why im thinking alum vs cast iron, need the most power for the buck.

I don't see why those heads can't be fixed however.
You can epoxy up the bad ported parts and start over.
Bad valve jobs can be fixed with new seats if needed.
If I were starting from scratch however, I would get the AFR 205cc heads (for your 408) or a set of victor Jr. heads. But a competant guy can fix your Windsor Sr heads. The question is for what price?
Have you had the heads on a flow bench?
Do you know for sure that the heads don't flow what they should?
The reason why cleveland guys run iron heads (or clevelands at all for that matter) is because a bone stock 4V head will flow more than most street/strip windsor heads. Ported cleveland heads will flow as much or more than most Windsor race heads.

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cobravenom71
Gearhead

Posts: 831
From: Kissimee, Fl USA
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 01-25-2003 02:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cobravenom71   Click Here to Email cobravenom71     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Stroker-Man, Your engine builder is a little misinformed. When it comes to making power, a COOLER fuel mixture makes more power, not a HOTTER one. Cool air is more dense than warm air, which means that the molecules are more closely packed together. Kinda like ther's more air in the same amount of space. When they expand during combustion, closely packed molecules will naturally have more opportunity for expansion, and therefore produce a more powerful force when pushing on the piston.
This 'denser air makes for more power' theory is the basis behind hood scoops,for outside air is cooler than underhood air.
A turbo or supercharger also works on the same theory. It 'packs' the molecules very tightly together and produces major performance improvements, often well over 100% volumetric effiency which is the theoretical limit of a naturally aspirated engine. Most typical street engines don't get much past about 60 or 70% VE.
NOS also makes the fuel charge denser (MUCH!)and makes HUGE power gains.
Aluminum heads dissipate heat faster and allow you to run more compression wich makes more power, but also more heat.The faster the heads cool down, or the cooler they stay, the more power you can produce.
One thing to remember is this: Oxygen is far more effective in terms of complete combustion than heat is, although heat plays an important role also. That's why air pumps are used to push air into exhaust manifolds and catalytic converters. The extra oxygen allows the burnt, oxygen-free exhaust gas to combust the unburned hydrocarbons that are left over from incomplete combustion, making for a 'cleaner' exhaust emission.
For hot rods, 'cooler air=more power'.

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stroker man
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Posts: 143
From: Denville NJ USA
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 01-25-2003 04:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for stroker man   Click Here to Email stroker man     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i'm getting a lot of history lessons on this alum and cast iron thing, i would love to get the AFR 205 or the vic jr heads, just need to find which one has the same ex port location so it doesnt interfere with anything in the engine compartment, tight on the 69's,the sr heads are not ruined, but im not using them, although the valve job is crap,i like the idea of less weight on the frontend that would be a big differance in handling and power,im thinking vic jr heads ported might be the way to go on my motor why go back to cast iron again, makes sence.

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Moneymaker
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From: Lyons, IL, USA
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posted 01-26-2003 03:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Aluminum heads are always my last choice for street engines.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

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cobravenom71
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From: Kissimee, Fl USA
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posted 01-26-2003 10:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cobravenom71   Click Here to Email cobravenom71     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I too prefer good ole' iron heads for street use. Cheaper and much more durable in use as well as when being worked on.
I feel that there are so many other things that should be done to a good street motor build-up to get the maximum power availible before the installation of aluminum heads.
Too many people go for the aluminum heads first before the other 'stuff' is done, and this severely limits the potential extra power that they may offer. In that respect, the expense is not worth the trade-off.
However, if you have maximized every other sub-system of the engine as much as practically possible, then the aluminum heads are the next obvious choice. Even though I have a couple of really 'healthy' engines, I don't feel that any of my engines are anywhere near being able to use the full potential of what aluminum heads offer.
Once again, it seems to be mostly a matter of opinion.

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Greg Pettit
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Posts: 95
From: Dallas, TX
Registered: Nov 2001

posted 01-27-2003 09:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Greg Pettit   Click Here to Email Greg Pettit     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey, sometimes it's a matter of cost favoring the aluminum heads.

I am building a 460, and it was going to cost me well over $1,000 in head work on my C9VE iron heads to get them reworked from bare casings.

I bought a set of Edelbrock 460 CJ heads for $1800.

So, the aluminum heads cost me 800 bucks, at most, and I have nowhere to go but up with them. The iron heads would have been almost maxed out for a street application.

Greg

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Darracq
Journeyman

Posts: 10
From: Pittsburg,Ks
Registered: Jan 2003

posted 01-27-2003 09:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Darracq   Click Here to Email Darracq     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would get the Victor Jrs, They will make well over 500 HP out of the box on a 408, My friend has them on a 302 that screams.

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Mpcoluv
Gearhead

Posts: 1144
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 01-27-2003 05:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mpcoluv   Click Here to Email Mpcoluv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Darracq:
I would get the Victor Jrs, They will make well over 500 HP out of the box on a 408, My friend has them on a 302 that screams.

I think you meant to say the Vic Jr heads will ALLOW you to make 500+ HP if the rest of the engine is properly designed........

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 7226
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
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posted 01-28-2003 12:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yeah,

We're making about 550 fwhp with the 408w with a pair of stock Vic Jr's and a smallish solid roller cam.

SteveW

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65racecoupe
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Posts: 126
From: Layton UT,
Registered: May 2002

posted 01-28-2003 10:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 65racecoupe   Click Here to Email 65racecoupe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
How wild does a 302 (331) need to be to be able to use a Vic Jr head?

Would AFR 185's be a better choice for a rompin street engine that I am trying to put together?

What exactly happens to the drivibility to the car when the engine has heads that are too "big" for it?

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 5248
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 01-28-2003 11:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 65racecoupe:

What exactly happens to the drivibility to the car when the engine has heads that are too "big" for it?


It becomes a dog at lower rpms, which is the exact area most street cars operate.

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cobravenom71
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Posts: 831
From: Kissimee, Fl USA
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posted 01-28-2003 12:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cobravenom71   Click Here to Email cobravenom71     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I didn't claim that there would be no benifit from using aluminum heads. You can't compare aluminum heads to bone-stock iron heads because no one makes aluminum heads designed with all the deficiencies that are common to stock passenger car heads. What would be the point?
If you compare a set of good aluminum heads to a good aftermarket set of iron heads, the aluminums will generally outperform the irons, but by a much smaller amount.
Cost effectiveness is certainly a consideration, as mentioned above. If you can get the better aluminums for not much more than the cost of reworked irons, go for it!
Some aftermarket applications, however, offer some really good iron heads for relatively cheap cost as compared to aluminums.
How come there are never any easy answers?

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stroker man
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Posts: 143
From: Denville NJ USA
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 01-28-2003 03:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for stroker man   Click Here to Email stroker man     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
anybody have flow numbers on the vic jr heads out of the box, i would like to compare them with full ported roush iron heads for my 408w, still have not made decision on iron or alum, getting to many anwsers, its 50\50 , like the lose some weight of the front end of the mach, that would get the thing moving.P.S who has the best price for vic jr heads?

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Skeeter
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Posts: 133
From: California
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 01-28-2003 05:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Skeeter   Click Here to Email Skeeter     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Flow #s are available on the Edelbrock site

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Moneymaker
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posted 01-28-2003 11:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I build engines for people that drive their cars strictly on the street and occasionally race them.
I also build engines for racing.
Most street guys are lazy and don't like to keep up with required maintanance.
Aluminum heads expand more, heat up faster, and cool down faster. All great attributes for a race engine.
Since I rarely install anything bigger than a 270 S or H in a street combo, and there are plenty of good inexpensive iron performance Ford heads, there is zero need for me to engineer a hot street piece that will be a constant open wound.
Everytime I do what a customer wants and install some aluminum heads on his/her street car, invariably there are problems.
One thing that a lot of you might be forgeting is our location. We are in Chicago where it gets cold. REAL cold. Many, if not most of these guys/gals drive these cars year round.
Aluminum heads will seep anti-freeze when cold, valve lash will change dramaticly in 20 degree or less temperature, and the engines take forever to heat up. This alone will cause extremly rich conditions that can lead to cylinder washing and a multitude of other issues.
I have a reputation to maintain and no matter what a customer says he/she is NOT going to do, they always do it anyway.

End result is that I'm the bad guy, I did poor work, I engineered a incompatible combination,

This way these issues are non existant.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
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Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
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MrWesson22
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Posts: 1212
From: Dacula, GA
Registered: Sep 2000

posted 01-29-2003 12:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MrWesson22   Click Here to Email MrWesson22     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm not trying to argue at all Alex, and this is an honest question. Why have so many manufacturers gone to aluminum heads and even blocks in factory applications now? (Example: LS1).

------------------
Neal

69 Gulfstream Aqua Grande
351C/4sp
https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/MrWesson22.html

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Moneymaker
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posted 01-29-2003 01:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
All aluminum motor is a different story. No dissimilar metals.
How many aluminum headed, cast iron block engines survived from Detroit?
Anyone remember a little POS called the Cadillac 4100? LOL LOL

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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Stewart
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Posts: 9313
From: Monterey, CA Mustangsandmore Member #437
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 01-29-2003 02:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Stewart   Click Here to Email Stewart     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alex, since the cold weather issues wouldn't apply to me (no rub intended! ) what kind of "open wound" maintenance would I need to worry about over iron heads?

I ask because when funds allow (looking like sometime the next century! ), I was contemplating AFR 165's with mild bowl work done, port matched to an Edelbrock Performer intake, mated to a custom grind cam.

Stewart

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cobravenom71
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Posts: 831
From: Kissimee, Fl USA
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 01-29-2003 09:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cobravenom71   Click Here to Email cobravenom71     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
In case anyone missed the subtle inference, 'Moneymaker' was 100% right-on in his description of why aluminum heads are not a desirable choice for a 'multi-use' street rod.
For a single-purpose race engine operating under a VERY narrow range of conditions, aluminum heads on an iron block are outstanding in what they can potentilly deliver in terms of performance improvements.
However, for a street motor that sees regular varied-weather driving conditions as well as some mild street racing, aluminum heads are far more trouble than what they are worth.
Almost every street rodder I've met thinks his engine is a serious race motor, but when you compare them to an actual bonafide, race only engine, a typical 'hot' street motor is relatively tame.
The specific advantages that a race motor has over a street motor are almost universally the exact same things that when done to a street motor make them almost undrivable, definately not enjoyable.
There are many, many other things that are avilible to a street-rodder that can make his engine perform fantastically on the street. IMO,Aluminum heads are WAY DOWN on the list.

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MrWesson22
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Posts: 1212
From: Dacula, GA
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posted 01-29-2003 11:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MrWesson22   Click Here to Email MrWesson22     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Aren't the new cobras aluminum heads on an iron block? I know last year they were aluminum blocks but switched back to the iron bc of factory boost.

------------------
Neal

69 Gulfstream Aqua Grande
351C/4sp
https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/MrWesson22.html

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Moneymaker
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posted 01-29-2003 11:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Neal, FoMoCo 4v modular engines have had coolant issues since their introduction in 1993. I'm not sure if the 2003 Cobra has an iron block or not.
Boss 429's had o ring style gaskets and they still leaked like craxy on the street.
Todd, just keep the coolant and oil clean and I would re-torque the heads once a year.
Snug the intake bolts every time you set the valves.
Most crate motor style street rods wont' get out of their own way. They are built for show and no go. The owners love to hang out at car shows and talk numbers like 500 or 600 HP, but in reality...well, mostly I just smile, say that's great, and move on.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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MrWesson22
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Posts: 1212
From: Dacula, GA
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posted 01-29-2003 12:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MrWesson22   Click Here to Email MrWesson22     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alex,
As always you're a wealth of great info. The 03 cobra blocks are iron - I double checked on it.

------------------
Neal

69 Gulfstream Aqua Grande
351C/4sp
https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/MrWesson22.html

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stroker man
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From: Denville NJ USA
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posted 01-29-2003 02:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for stroker man   Click Here to Email stroker man     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
well i have learned a lot about this head deal, where i live its get cold in the winter good old nj, its 0 to 5 degrees this last two weeks, even though my car sleeps in the winter, who needs problems with heads, my engine is getting done the right way this time, no worries, just good street car with lot of torque, cast heads are the ones i'll use again, this time fully ported, not cnc,i'll save weight somewhere else,i dont have the time to take my motor out to replace head gaskets, not that i would have a problem but,thanks for all the infro.

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cobravenom71
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posted 01-30-2003 09:12 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for cobravenom71   Click Here to Email cobravenom71     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I will have to take exception a little with the statement that most 'crate-motor street cars can't get out of their own way.'
I have a 79 Z-28 that has a basically stock 'ZZ4+' Chevy crate-motor. The car has a M-21 4-speed and 3.71 limited-slip, both as originally equipped.
Now this car is of course nowhere near what a knowledgable person would ever consider to be a race car, but it can most definately 'get out of it's own way!' It even holds up pretty well to some of today's faster factory hot-rods.
My 71 Mach has 429 that has been treated to a lot of little tricks to help it get some extra horses, and it runs great, also.
Both of these cars are 100% streetable and are completely able to drive around in normal everyday traffic without overheating,stalling, beating up the driver, or getting me a ticket for noise pollution.
They aint made for 'racing', just like a race car aint made for the 'street'.

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SteveLaRiviere
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posted 01-30-2003 09:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cobravenom71:
They aint made for 'racing', just like a race car aint made for the 'street'.

Keep in mind this is the Racing Forum, where 'Get out of it's own way' has a different meaning. On the street, many people that drive 14 second cars think they are piloting rockets. Just an observation.

------------------
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V8 Thumper
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posted 01-30-2003 09:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SteveLaRiviere:
On the street, many people that drive 14 second cars think they are piloting rockets. Just an observation.



...like RICERS!

------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9"

All Blue Oval, no blue bottle
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Moneymaker
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posted 01-30-2003 09:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey CV, I said "Street RODS", not street cars. You know, like 34 coupes, T-buckets, 40 Ford replicas, 49 Mercs, etc.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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Fastymz
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From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
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posted 01-30-2003 12:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastymz   Click Here to Email Fastymz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SteveLaRiviere:
Keep in mind this is the Racing Forum, where 'Get out of it's own way' has a different meaning. On the street, many people that drive 14 second cars think they are piloting rockets. Just an observation.


Hey that sounds lot like me and my car.

I was thinking about that same point about this being a race forum.And I had a question were is the right forum to post questions about making your faster,but it's not a REAL race car?

I would like to say that I got alot of great information from reading this.
It's hard as a person that only knows about parts,and combo's from TV shows and reading it in add's and magazines.
I never know what really works and what does not.Thats why I ask around on this forum.


------------------
SCOOP
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs

2.26 60'S
14.9 @ 90.86MPH

65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8"3.40 TracLoc,Cragar SS,Black Suede.

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65racecoupe
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Posts: 126
From: Layton UT,
Registered: May 2002

posted 01-30-2003 01:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 65racecoupe   Click Here to Email 65racecoupe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So, Moneymaker,

What iron heads would you suggest for a hot 302 stroker street engine (331 - 347 with 400 - 425 FWHP).

Roush 200's? That is all I can think of.

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rockafellz
Gearhead

Posts: 1348
From: San Lorenzo, CA, USA
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posted 01-30-2003 01:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rockafellz   Click Here to Email rockafellz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fastymz:
Hey that sounds lot like me and my car.

I was thinking about that same point about this being a race forum.And I had a question were is the right forum to post questions about making your faster,but it's not a REAL race car?

I would like to say that I got alot of great information from reading this.
It's hard as a person that only knows about parts,and combo's from TV shows and reading it in add's and magazines.
I never know what really works and what does not.Thats why I ask around on this forum.



I think I fall into the same category Scoop. I see this forum as a place where all the go-fast gearheads hang out. I don't see it as a place where only drag racers can hang out. I post and reply to go-fast mod-related questions here and mustang specific questions in the classics forum.

Correct me if i'm wrong.

Erik

------------------
1966 Ford Mustang 2+2
Mine - Restomod in Progress

1966 Ford Mustang Coupe
Dad's - Original Unrestored

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rockafellz
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Posts: 1348
From: San Lorenzo, CA, USA
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posted 01-30-2003 01:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rockafellz   Click Here to Email rockafellz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 65racecoupe:
So, Moneymaker,

What iron heads would you suggest for a hot 302 stroker street engine (331 - 347 with 400 - 425 FWHP).

Roush 200's? That is all I can think of.


Sorry to butt in. I'd also suggest Roush 180's (Windsor JRs). The combustion chamber is smaller and will give you higher compression. Although, i'm sure the 200's would be better on a 347. I have them and love them. Of course they are on a 306 and have been "worked" on. Ford Motorsport GT-40 heads are also cast iron but I don't think they flow nearly as good as the Windsor JRs.

Erik

------------------
1966 Ford Mustang 2+2
Mine - Restomod in Progress

1966 Ford Mustang Coupe
Dad's - Original Unrestored

[This message has been edited by rockafellz (edited 01-30-2003).]

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Moneymaker
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posted 01-30-2003 01:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rockafellz:
Sorry to butt in. I'd also suggest Roush 180's (Windsor JRs). The combustion chamber is smaller and will give you higher compression. Although, i'm sure the 200's would be better on a 347. I have them and love them. Of course they are on a 306 and have been "worked" on. Ford Motorsport GT-40 heads are also cast iron but I don't think they flow nearly as good as the Windsor JRs.

Erik


Best bang for the buck are the WP heads.
GT-40P are also options as are other FoMoCo offerings.

------------------
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Co-Administrator and Moderator

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cobravenom71
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From: Kissimee, Fl USA
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posted 01-30-2003 01:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cobravenom71   Click Here to Email cobravenom71     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yeah, I guess a 'racing' forum WOULD relate to mostly actual 'race' cars. My mistake, as I was also kinda' thinking that this is the section where most would ask about hipo mods in general,not just specific race only questions. No big deal.
Maybe a 'street hi-performance' forum would be in order?
14's for a street car aint no rocket to me, but it is pretty fast. Street 'Rocket' to me would be low 12's and low 13's MINIMUM!
And then any 'streeter'(not just a 'racer' with a license plate attached) that can get into the 11's is pretty impressive to me.

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SteveLaRiviere
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posted 01-30-2003 01:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I didn't mean to imply that people shouldn't post performance questions here, I was just saying that a racer has a different definition of a slug than a street gearhead does and it may be helpful to keep that in mind.

No biggie. Sorry I woke you all.

------------------
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Moneymaker
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posted 01-30-2003 01:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cobravenom71:

Maybe a 'street hi-performance' forum would be in order?

This place is fine for any performance Q&A.

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stroker man
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From: Denville NJ USA
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posted 01-30-2003 02:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for stroker man   Click Here to Email stroker man     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
im using the roush heads, 58cc chambers fully ported to flow with the big 408, plus custom cam shaft to flow with the heads, also i heard that if you run alum heads and you had on cast iron heads before you need to step up the thermostat to 10 to 15 degrees for better heat and power, since alum heads dissapate heat more

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Fastymz
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Posts: 14201
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
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posted 01-30-2003 04:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastymz   Click Here to Email Fastymz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SteveLaRiviere:

No biggie. Sorry I woke you all.


Yes you did!
I didn't mean to mix things up in here.I just wanted to be clear that I dont think of my car as a RACE CAR.It is my own rocket ship being it is the fastest thing in own for now.
I agree that a ture 12 or low 13 second street is fast.
But then again around here ever one tells you there runs in the 12's.Until race day then they all say well it wasn't tuned right,bad in the tires ect...

Ok I'll stop making trouble for now.

------------------
SCOOP
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs

2.26 60'S
14.9 @ 90.86MPH

65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8"3.40 TracLoc,Cragar SS,Black Suede.

https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Fastymz.html

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JC357W
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From: Turramurra, NSW, Australia
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posted 01-30-2003 04:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JC357W   Click Here to Email JC357W     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It seems that the conclusion is iron heads for street windsors, I would like to go one step further. What are peoples thaughts on cleveland heads on windsor blocks. In OZ cleveland heads
are every where, the after market heads with the exchange rate are very expensive.

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Moneymaker
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posted 01-30-2003 05:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Welcome to M&M
I like that Aussie 302HP Cleveland head myself.

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Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
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kid vishus
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Posts: 5248
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 01-30-2003 05:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JC357W:
It seems that the conclusion is iron heads for street windsors, I would like to go one step further. What are peoples thaughts on cleveland heads on windsor blocks. In OZ cleveland heads
are every where, the after market heads with the exchange rate are very expensive.

Welcome to M&M.

My opinion, I dont like the swap. Atleast not here. For the amount of money it would take to put the aussie C heads on a windsor, you could build a pure windsor with aftermarket heads that would outrun it. The aussie 2v heads dont flow worth a darn in stock form.

But like I said, that's here, with the exchange rate, I have no idea how that would change the total cost of the same buildup in Australia.

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JC357W
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From: Turramurra, NSW, Australia
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posted 01-30-2003 05:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JC357W   Click Here to Email JC357W     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks

I have got a set of those in the shed, which is what I was planning on using. Port them clean the bowls and hardend seats for ULP, stainless 4V valves and screw in studs. Relieve the chambers back to 62cc and remove the hot spots.
They then should flow at approx 500HP all this for $1300 AU. About $800 US.

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JC357W
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From: Turramurra, NSW, Australia
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posted 01-30-2003 05:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JC357W   Click Here to Email JC357W     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Kid Vishus, They certainly out flow any stock Windosr head and with little work out flow off the shelf WP SR and GT40 Heads.

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kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 5248
From: middle of NC
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posted 01-30-2003 05:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JC357W:
Kid Vishus, They certainly out flow any stock Windosr head and with little work out flow off the shelf WP SR and GT40 Heads.


They definatley outflow stock windsor heads, but they dont flow that great when compared to the better aftermarket Windsor heads on the market.

------------------
Rob Hetzler
member #773
'69 mustang, 351C, best 9.97 @ 133 mph 1/4, 6.18 @ 109.9 1/8, 1.319 60'
'70 mustang, flintstone power
'93 F150 Lightning 15.33 @ 87 mph, completely stock with 167k miles
'60 Falcon wagon project car
'99 Pro Et track champion
'00 Mod ET R-up (with new car)
'01 5th place Top ET, 7th place Mod ET

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JC357W
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From: Turramurra, NSW, Australia
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posted 01-30-2003 05:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JC357W   Click Here to Email JC357W     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
But your moving out of the iron range now ?

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kid vishus
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Posts: 5248
From: middle of NC
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posted 01-30-2003 07:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JC357W:
But your moving out of the iron range now ?


Ummm.... well...
aaaahhh...
yeah...

ok, you got me there.

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JC357W
Journeyman

Posts: 8
From: Turramurra, NSW, Australia
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posted 01-30-2003 07:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JC357W   Click Here to Email JC357W     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Kid

I agree the aftermarket alloys are much better but when a set of AFR185cc heads cost $3300 AU dollars of the shelf, I think Clevo's are the way to go. Parker Racing ( Funnel Web ) are producing a single plane manifold for this combo. So it will end up costing me alot less.

But thanks for your feedback.

Any body out there run this combo ?

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Mpcoluv
Gearhead

Posts: 1144
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 01-31-2003 06:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mpcoluv   Click Here to Email Mpcoluv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JC357W:
Kid

I agree the aftermarket alloys are much better but when a set of AFR185cc heads cost $3300 AU dollars of the shelf, I think Clevo's are the way to go. Parker Racing ( Funnel Web ) are producing a single plane manifold for this combo. So it will end up costing me alot less.

But thanks for your feedback.

Any body out there run this combo ?


BTW Terry Parker was telling me that there is a "Super" head porting guy in Oz that is getting 300 cfm (@ .600) out of the 2V aussie heads without grinding into the water jacket of using epoxy......
The best I have ever heard of, flow wise, is 260 cfm (which is still good enough to support 500hp).
I would compare most ported 2V heads to bone stock world products heads.


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CometGT1974
Gearhead

Posts: 286
From: Asheville, NC USA
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posted 01-31-2003 08:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for CometGT1974   Click Here to Email CometGT1974     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK, I just gotta throw my 2 cents worth in....before I put the solid roller in my 347 I drove the car around all the time. I made road trips to Tennessee and all over Western NC. All the time I was running my Victor Jr. heads and the only problem I encountered was a little coolant leakage at the tops of the lower head studs. I ran some Moroso block sealant through it and it fixed the problem. Other then that my aluminum heads did fine, and every time I went back to re-torque the heads they were right on the money every time....this is just my experience!!

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Moneymaker
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posted 01-31-2003 10:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CometGT1974:
OK, I just gotta throw my 2 cents worth in.... All the time I was running my Victor Jr. heads and the only problem I encountered was a little coolant leakage at the tops of the lower head studs. I ran some Moroso block sealant through it and it fixed the problem. ....this is just my experience!!


My point exactly. Andd what if you didn't notice the leak until it was too late and got hot?
With iron heads on an iron block that problem doesn't happen.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

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Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
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68DARKHORSE
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Posts: 417
From: Austin, Tx
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posted 01-31-2003 10:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 68DARKHORSE   Click Here to Email 68DARKHORSE     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by CometGT1974:
OK, I just gotta throw my 2 cents worth in.... All the time I was running my Victor Jr. heads and the only problem I encountered was a little coolant leakage at the tops of the lower head studs. I ran some Moroso block sealant through it and it fixed the problem. ....this is just my experience!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Does anyone know if this occurs more often with the 302 due to the headbolt spacers?

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Moneymaker
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posted 01-31-2003 11:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It's ANY engine with an iron block and an aluminum head (s).
You have to be careful and pay attention with a daily driver.

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Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
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NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
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SteveLaRiviere
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posted 01-31-2003 11:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I remember the Honda CVCC engines in the seventies had wicked problems with gasket creep, which would then cause the gaskets to leak, the engines to overheat and every head we took off came off severely warped and a lot of them were cracked.

I thought they had cured this problem with better alloys and better gasket materials, no?

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SteveLaRiviere
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posted 01-31-2003 11:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is a great thread, because at first you'd think the best way to go is with the latest aluminum heads, and it is in terms of air flow and cooling, etc. But it pays to think of your own application and how compatible a part is for your particular circumstances.

That's the sort of thing experience teaches you. Thanks, Alex!

------------------
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[This message has been edited by SteveLaRiviere (edited 01-31-2003).]

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Moneymaker
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posted 01-31-2003 12:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I guess that youguys don't remember Vega's do ya?

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Alex Denysenko
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Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
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SteveLaRiviere
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posted 01-31-2003 12:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks! I've been trying to forget!

Those were aluminum blocks, though, until they smartened up and switched to Iron Dukes.

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rockafellz
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posted 01-31-2003 01:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rockafellz   Click Here to Email rockafellz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
I guess that youguys don't remember Vega's do ya?


Alex, you talkin' about those Chevy Vega's? Those are as butt ugly as the pinto. The thing that gets me is there are a ton of chevy gearheads in my area that LOVE that car for racing. To me, that's almost as bad as rice rockets. If you're going to "mod up" a car, at least do it to a car that looks good.

Erik

------------------
1966 Ford Mustang 2+2
Mine - Restomod in Progress

1966 Ford Mustang Coupe
Dad's - Original Unrestored

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Fastymz
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posted 01-31-2003 02:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastymz   Click Here to Email Fastymz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nothing wrong with a V8 pinto.
And the pinto wagons are cool too.
TomP and I saw a real nice Pinto at HAN drags last year.

Ok so I can't spell and i have different taste then most.

------------------
SCOOP
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs

2.26 60'S
14.9 @ 90.86MPH

65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8"3.40 TracLoc,Cragar SS,Black Suede.

https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Fastymz.html

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steve'66
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posted 01-31-2003 02:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
I guess that youguys don't remember Vega's do ya?


Let's not forget our own 3.8 liter Ford v-6's.

SteveW

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Moneymaker
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posted 01-31-2003 02:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I didn't want to bring those up Steve.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
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NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
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Rustang351c
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Posts: 45
From: Watkinsville, GA, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 01-31-2003 04:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rustang351c   Click Here to Email Rustang351c     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Ok Alex, I'm migrating over here from my post....I'm convinced on the Roush heads, and I'm doing the 393w kit. I read above where you usually install a 270 s or h for the street. What cam, carb and intake would I need to stay ahead of production cars. Looks like they're running mid 13's dowm to 12's for Z06 & new Cobra. I figure I'll need 450-475 @ the flywheel, 375-400 on the ground. I don't mind checking valve lash and torque specs, so don't worry if it involves some hands on.

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Mpcoluv
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posted 01-31-2003 05:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mpcoluv   Click Here to Email Mpcoluv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rustang351c:

Ok Alex, I'm migrating over here from my post....I'm convinced on the Roush heads, and I'm doing the 393w kit.

Try to find an MM&FF Jan 2002 issue for an articel on cleaning up/porting the roush 200 heads.

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Rustang351c
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posted 01-31-2003 05:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rustang351c   Click Here to Email Rustang351c     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

OK, thanks for the article tip.

Ok, new Z06 has 375 hp, new cobra 390, at the wheels, and with a good setup there in the 12's. What "Cam, Carb, Intake" would you suggest to get a 86 GT in the low 13's - 12's. Using 245/45/17 street tires and a 3.27 rear gear. Thanks

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steve'66
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posted 01-31-2003 06:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yeah Alex,

He wants to run 12's at 120mph.

SteveW

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Rustang351c
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From: Watkinsville, GA, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 01-31-2003 11:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rustang351c   Click Here to Email Rustang351c     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm lost? Is it not possible to get low 13's or high 12's with what I'm talking about? Whats the joke?!? Need to go at least mid 13's like most Vettes.

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steve'66
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Posts: 7226
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 02-01-2003 12:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Rustang,

It's not a joke, and we're not making fun of you. It's just with as much h.p. as you're looking for Alex thinks it should be a 10 second ride down the 1/4 mile. And it would be if the car was optimized for drag racing. But since you're trying to do it with highway gears and street tires I just pointed out that you want it to run like a modern street car, 12 seconds at 120 mph.

Anyway back to your original question, the 270s or h is way too small for your stroker. A Comp 282s or even the 294s would be better. Just depends on how much driveability you're willing to sacrafice. The 282s is a pussycat cam on the street with your cubic inches. The 294s would have a good lope and need a higher stall converter. I've got a solid roller for you too, if you want to really fly.
The modern muscle can make this h.p. w/o the sacrafices due to tuned port fuel injection, etc.

SteveW

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 7226
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 02-01-2003 12:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rustang351c:
Need to go at least mid 13's like most Vettes.

My daughter was stomping those plastic pos's when she was in High School and only had a 351w w/comp 282s cam. Even the ZO6's
But, she wasn't running street gears or tires.

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MrWesson22
Gearhead

Posts: 1212
From: Dacula, GA
Registered: Sep 2000

posted 02-01-2003 01:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for MrWesson22   Click Here to Email MrWesson22     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
BTW Rustang,
New Z06s are 405hp, not 375. They're good for low 12s on slicks otherwise stock. A few have broken into the 11s. They're solidly in the 11s with the usual bolt-ons. (Yeah, I like those cars. For the money, I'd take an 03 cobra over one though).

------------------
Neal

69 Gulfstream Aqua Grande
351C/4sp
https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/MrWesson22.html

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Rustang351c
Journeyman

Posts: 45
From: Watkinsville, GA, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 02-01-2003 11:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rustang351c   Click Here to Email Rustang351c     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Oh, ok... It was because 12sec-120mph is ALL that I want! cool.
I haven't really thought about a solid roller. That 288R has a 2200-6500 range. Thats awesome. So thatd be better than a 294s? Is it the same maintenece as a solid, just checking valve lash? Says rough idle and I was hoping to stick w/ a choppy, but I could live w/ it. I have to get rid of these flowmasters thou! lol They've been on there 6 years (and I'm at a different phase of my life now) Is there a "Quiet performance muffler"? Or is that a contridiction in terms?
....so from there, if i stuck w/ the 850 d.p., a single plane Torker II or VicJr, the roush200's, & 393w, what kinda HP (street times)would we be into?

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Rustang351c
Journeyman

Posts: 45
From: Watkinsville, GA, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 02-01-2003 11:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rustang351c   Click Here to Email Rustang351c     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
MrWesson that is a slick looking 69. You're close by, do you go to Commerce often? That your daily-driver? What kinda times do you run?

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 21725
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-01-2003 12:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Walker Dynomax sound very nice.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

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SteveLaRiviere
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From: Saco, Maine
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posted 02-02-2003 07:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It seems like we've come to the conclusion that it depends on how extreme the conditions the engine has to perform in, and the amount of maintenance the owner is willing to perform.

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150

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Moneymaker
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Posts: 21725
From: Lyons, IL, USA
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posted 02-04-2003 12:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
S T R E E T car / D A I L Y driver iron is my choice.
Aluminum aftermarket heads would be the way to go for high performance or race.

That's it for me on this topic.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
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D&S Induction Systems
Gearhead

Posts: 118
From: Columbia Heights Mn U.S.A.
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 02-05-2003 09:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for D&S Induction Systems   Click Here to Email D&S Induction Systems     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Weight and heat dissipation are the biggest advantages you will have with aluminum heads.

Just think of the weight savings you will have on a big block. And "racing engines" create alot more heat that stock engines. I would rather run aluminum heads on a racing engine just for that reason.

You can "street" aluminum heads just as eay as cast ones. Almost ALL new domestic and import factory engines use aluminum heads.

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fordfan
Gearhead

Posts: 3059
From: Walla Walla, Wa, USA
Registered: Jun 99

posted 02-05-2003 09:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fordfan   Click Here to Email fordfan     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
What about Street/Commuter/Daily Driver/High performance/ Race cars... or trucks???

------------------
Joseph J. Shaffer IV
------------------
Too many cars for one person to Own!:

'68 Ford Mustang Coupe
'64 Mercury Comet 202
'62 Ford Falcon 2dr Wagon
'70 Chevrolet C-10 Stepside
'41 Chevrolet Stepside
'43 Dodge WC-53 (WWII Powerwagon)
'74 Chevrolet Caprice 454 (Motor Doner for the '70 pickup) .

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stroker man
Gearhead

Posts: 143
From: Denville NJ USA
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 02-05-2003 09:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for stroker man   Click Here to Email stroker man     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
im still going with cast iron heads for the street, better all around,fully ported of course.

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[email protected]
Gearhead

Posts: 542
From: Lakewood, CO, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 02-06-2003 10:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for JCQuinn@work   Click Here to Email JCQuinn@work     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
There seems to be a lot of confusion on this subject about where to draw the line between race engines and street engines. It really is only a question of maintenance. Race engines require a lot of maintenance, going to two races without taking the engine apart is a rarity. Low performance street engines will go years without more than plug changes and oil changes. You decide where you want to be between these two extremes and build accordingly.

Aluminum heads will definately put you into the higher maintenance area, I used to run a auto machine shop and the next bay was occupied by an import repair shop. We got lots of aluminum heads off of those imports that "never break down". We rarely got iron heads.

John

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 21725
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 02-06-2003 10:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
3.8 FoMoCo, Quad 4 GM, 4100 GM all have had serious head gasket issues.
Show me a 50k plus mile popular Detroit engine with an iron block and aluminum heads and I'll show you a leaker. You can't pull into a F/L/M or GM service dept without seeing at least two or three iron/aluminum engines down for head gaskets. That is a FACT!

As much of a dreamer as I am, I still live in the REAL world. I spent too many years dealing with these problems when I ran the dealership.

IN closing on this topic, do what ever your little hearts desire. I wouldn't do it as I hate doing the same job twice.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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stroker man
Gearhead

Posts: 143
From: Denville NJ USA
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 02-06-2003 03:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for stroker man   Click Here to Email stroker man     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
what did i start?

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Fastymz
Moderator

Posts: 14201
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 02-06-2003 03:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastymz   Click Here to Email Fastymz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by stroker man:
what did i start?

One of the best post I've read,thanks.

------------------
SCOOP
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs

2.26 60'S
14.9 @ 90.86MPH

65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8"3.40 TracLoc,Cragar SS,Black Suede.

https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Fastymz.html

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SteveLaRiviere
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From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 02-06-2003 03:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by [email protected]:
We got lots of aluminum heads off of those imports that "never break down". We rarely got iron heads.

LOL. Those '200,000 mile' toyotas, nissans, and hondas put your kids through college? That what I used to say: if these things are so damn superior, how come they were always in my bay?

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150

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69 Sportsroof
Gearhead

Posts: 1421
From: Valley, Alabama, USA
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 02-06-2003 03:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 69 Sportsroof   Click Here to Email 69 Sportsroof     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fastymz:
One of the best post I've read,thanks.


That's true. And one that is going to save me about $400...minimum.

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 1700
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 02-06-2003 04:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SteveLaRiviere:
LOL. ....if these things are so damn superior, how come they were always in my bay?

About a year ago, there was a fella at work who razzed on me about the cracked windshield and faded paint on my '65 F-100. The next day when we were leaving the plant, it was dang cold. I started nursing my cold-carb choke on the ol' 390 when he started his cat-calling again.... I think he drove a '94 Honda Accord. As he was brushing the snow off his windows I turned to him and said, "Ya know what: My ol' truck is 37yrs old. Let's see what kind of shape your Honda will be in when it's 37 yrs old!"

- He never said anything about my truck again. True story.

Ryan

[This message has been edited by Ryan Wilke (edited 02-06-2003).]

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fastvert
Journeyman

Posts: 1
From:
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 03-21-2003 11:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fastvert   Click Here to Email fastvert     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CometGT1974:
OK, I just gotta throw my 2 cents worth in....before I put the solid roller in my 347 I drove the car around all the time. I made road trips to Tennessee and all over Western NC. All the time I was running my Victor Jr. heads and the only problem I encountered was a little coolant leakage at the tops of the lower head studs. I ran some Moroso block sealant through it and it fixed the problem. Other then that my aluminum heads did fine, and every time I went back to re-torque the heads they were right on the money every time....this is just my experience!!


quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:

My point exactly. Andd what if you didn't notice the leak until it was too late and got hot?
With iron heads on an iron block that problem doesn't happen.



I have to disagree. The reason that lower head bolt has coolant seeping is because that bolt taps into a water jacket. You're suppose to use thread sealer on any of the lower head bolts that tap water, aluminum or iron. It has not a thing to do with the heads being aluminum.

There are plenty of production cars using production aluminum heads successfully on production iron blocks. I have to disagree with your suggesting problems with the aluminum heads used on 4.6s. I've heard no mention of the problems you posted.

The LT1 also uses aluminum heads on iron blocks w/o problems.

[This message has been edited by fastvert (edited 03-28-2003).]

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bluestreek
Gearhead

Posts: 1460
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 03-22-2003 12:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bluestreek   Click Here to Email bluestreek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nobody mentioned that aluminum heads hold their value better when you get ready to sell! BTW, I haven't had a moments problem with mine all through the Winter. K.O.W.

------------------
1966 Mustang Coupe: Custom glass hood and BIG scoop sits atop a 289 stroked to 331 c.i., Steel crank and girdle, 5.4 H-beams, Forged slugs, TFS alum. heads, ported Stealth 8020 intake, Xtreme 274 Solid Roller, Holley 750 HP, long tubes, 4speed, 9" 3.50 posi.
1st pass: 12.50 @ 112 mph
DanH

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70spoiler
Gearhead

Posts: 109
From: Cottage Grove, MN
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 03-22-2003 08:41 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 70spoiler   Click Here to Email 70spoiler     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
...only thing leaking on my LT1 are the headers...guess I better tighten those bolts again...90K miles and motor never been apart, just external mods.
I think I will be keeping the Blue Thunders for the 545 I am putting together for my Cyclone. Those old D0VE or CJ heads just don't flow the same
We put together a 408 with AFR heads and did 608hp on pump gas for a street car and here in MN we drive the cars right till the snow flies

------------------
70 cyclone spoiler 429CJ
99 F250SD 4X4 PSD
89 SHO 3.0L
65 F250 4X4 240 4sp
70 F250 crewcab 360 4sp
94 Firebird Formula V8(LT1)

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V8 Thumper
Gearhead

Posts: 4044
From: Orange, Ca. United States of America
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 03-22-2003 11:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for V8 Thumper   Click Here to Email V8 Thumper     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bluestreek:
Nobody mentioned that aluminum heads hold their value better when you get ready to sell!

I believe that's a very true statement
Them shiny heads tend to fetch some good $$$ at the swap meets


P.S.
fastvert, you're opening up a can of worms

------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9"

All Blue Oval, no blue bottle
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/V8Thumper.html

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SundanceKid
Gearhead

Posts: 1137
From: UT
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 03-22-2003 02:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SundanceKid   Click Here to Email SundanceKid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Fastvert said EXACTLY what I've been thinking and keeping to myself the whole thread!
LS1's have aluminum heads and work great.

To bring up the Toyota bit again, I have a 22R that has an aluminum head and these engines are considered one of the longest lasting dependable engines ever made. My personal engine has 330,000 miles on it.

Also compare apples to apples; the aluminum headed cars that have had trouble like the CVCC where due to very small gasket area between the cylinders and the use of an aluminum head. Not just because of the material of the head alone. Same goes for the Quad4. One thing never overheat an aluminum headed engine. That is one area I agree that cast is better then aluminum.

My experience is if you prepare the engine properly and use the right sealers where you should, there are minimal problems with aluminum heads. I am a big fan of liqiud thread sealers myself.

Oh, while I'm on my soapbox...IMHO if you are building an aluminum headed engine that will be driven on the streets stick with a hydraulic cam. The lash on a solid cam changes dramatically with aluminum heads.

I think it is good advice to know that aluminum heads require special attention.

But,IMHO aluminum heads will last and be as maintenance free as cast heads if properly installed.

My .02 cents worth. Which at the current exchange rate is equal to Monopoly money.

[This message has been edited by SundanceKid (edited 03-22-2003).]

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Moneymaker
Administrator

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From: Lyons, IL, USA
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posted 03-22-2003 02:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I guess the one important fact that you guys may be forgeting is that Toyota, GM, FoMoCo, etc. have gazillions of dollars and man hours worth of engineering into their engine parts. Still they have problems. Don't agree?
Then do as I do almost daily and stop into a dealer service dept. and see how many engines are getting heads or head gaskets.
Team chebbie does 2-3 LS-1's a week, every week. They sell a lot of vettes.
In a perfect world with perfect maintanance almost anything can and will survive. Unfortunatly, we all are not perfect (except me)
and we all don't keep after our street cars as we should.
As good as Edelbrock, Canfield, etc. parts are, the still are primarily competition performance parts, not OEM replacment.
Yes, the resale value of aftermarket aluminum heads is probably 2 to 1 of iron.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 21725
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 03-22-2003 02:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Talk about timing. LOL

From another forum:
Engine overheating
May not be the right place for this but I need help. Have an 89 Chevy pickup with a 350 throttle body engine. It overheats once in a while. sometimes once a day sometimes once a month. Has edelbrock heads, intake and headers with a little Comp Cam. When it overheats it may be after 4 miles or 300. Sometimes when you start it cold it starts to warm up and never stops. It had a chip in it so I pulled it and put the stock one in. No change. Have changed radiator, water pump, thermostat, fan clutch, hoses and have even gone thru the motor again because it lost a headgasket and hydruliced when I hit the key.
The only thing I have not done is change the computer. Have been told that it may have a problem that doesn't show up as a code,
Any suggestions other than Five gallons of gas, a match and a gun. For those who don't know, the gun is to shoot the SOB that tries to put the fire out.

I normally DO NOT like to quote or copy posts from other forums, but this one seemed just soooo appropriate to this topic that I could not resist.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,&'03
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Professional Manwhore
The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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