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Author Topic:   First observations of the 5sp to c-4 swap
steve'66
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Posts: 3653
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 12-31-2001 12:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For anyone who is interested,

The first test drive of the race c-4 w/ tight 8" converter built for the future 408W's spec is way cool even behind the "mild little 351w". Melissa's reaction was "I've been competing against these with the manual tranny? That's just wasn't fair!" She kept reaching for the clutch pedal when approching stop signs, but she's getting it. We haven't even tried the T-Brake yet! It stalls about 3900 rpm with the 351w and is suposed to stall about 4300 behind the 408w. I'm real interested in how it compares to her best times with the manual trannies. On the street it is fine, the car starts moving from a stop at around 1300 rpm and is very driveable. I still have to wire the temp gauge and wait for the rain to stop before we can give it much road time. But, so far it's WAY COOL! Opinions and comments are "of course" welcome.

SteveW

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kcode
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From: alvaton,ky,usa Suburb of Bowling Green, M&M #79, MCA #29208
Registered: Jun 99

posted 12-31-2001 12:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kcode   Click Here to Email kcode     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sounds like Good Old Dad did it again.

Mike

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badazzcougar
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From: Seattle
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posted 12-31-2001 12:54 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for badazzcougar   Click Here to Email badazzcougar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Make sure your running a GOOD tranny cooler and get that temp gage hooked up ASAP before you do any sustained highway driving. When I first got my cougar it had 4.56 gears with an 8 inch converter and it would still overheat with double electric fans and a flex flan if I drove more than 10 miles on the highway then stopped. It one reason why I have a new engine in her.

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Fastymz
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From: Reno Nv MEM#1240
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posted 12-31-2001 02:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastymz   Click Here to Email Fastymz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Steve thats cool,you can't out shift a auto.3900,4300 is a great stall speed.
Steve keep us up to date on the next trip.

SCOOP

------------------
65 coupe,351w,RPM intake,Carter625,shorty headers,2.5 exhaust, Flowmasters,C4,open 8" 2:80,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,Crager SS,Black Suede.
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Moneymaker
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posted 12-31-2001 02:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You really don't need the temp guage Steve. The cooler will do it's job. You don't generate much heat until you stall the converter. Wait until you use the brake for the first time. Don't forget to use the two step.
I am really interested in the quality of the 2-3 shift at WOT.

------------------
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[This message has been edited by Moneymaker (edited 12-31-2001).]

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steve'66
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posted 12-31-2001 02:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alex,

I'll let you know when the roads dry out.

As far as the temp gauge I just need to mount it and wire it. I have the t-brake solenoid wired to the back-up switch in the Pro Ratchet shifter. Makes backing up a little easier.

SteveW

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65_289
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posted 12-31-2001 03:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 65_289   Click Here to Email 65_289     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You're a traitor to all stick-shift enthusiasts, and will be burned at the stake on the next full moon!!!!

J/K, as long as it makes you happy, then that is good. Congrats!

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JAAZZY
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From: Bay Area, CA
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posted 12-31-2001 04:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JAAZZY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sounds good. I used C4s for years. If there was a cheap OD unit I would probably still have one. Good luck.

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steve'66
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posted 12-31-2001 06:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 65_289:

J/K, as long as it makes you happy, then that is good. Congrats!

It makes me happy when the win light comes on in Melissa's lane. Racing a manual tranny in competitive bracket racing events is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Sure you might win some, but you have to be lucky or damned good.


SteveW

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Fastymz
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From: Reno Nv MEM#1240
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posted 12-31-2001 06:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastymz   Click Here to Email Fastymz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by steve'66:
It makes me happy when the win light comes on in Melissa's lane. Racing a manual tranny in competitive bracket racing events is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Sure you might win some, but you have to be lucky or damned good.


SteveW


Steve my gran pops always told be its better to be lucky then good.

Hey Steve dose a well built auto suck less power then a stock one.And what kind of difference is there.Has you know in about two weeks I'm having my c4 rebuilt with lots of go fast stuff in it.I cant wait to feel the difference,boy I hope I feel a differnce.

SCOOP

------------------
65 coupe,351w,RPM intake,Carter625,shorty headers,2.5 exhaust, Flowmasters,C4,open 8" 2:80,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,Crager SS,Black Suede.
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steve'66
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posted 12-31-2001 07:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Are they using roller bearings or bushings? A smaller converter will reduce the rotating mass along with other lightweight parts. I'm not a "pink shirt" tranny expert but it should use less h.p. and crank out more torque with a good converter.

SteveW

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Fastymz
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posted 12-31-2001 07:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastymz   Click Here to Email Fastymz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Steve he's using a 1800 stall convertor.And yes rollers.I know your not a trans expert.But I know even less then you.I would think if a stock one gives up around 20% a hipo that shifts faster and rolls more smooth.It has to use less power.

SCOOP

------------------
65 coupe,351w,RPM intake,Carter625,shorty headers,2.5 exhaust, Flowmasters,C4,open 8" 2:80,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,Crager SS,Black Suede.
MEM#1240

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badazzcougar
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posted 12-31-2001 08:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for badazzcougar   Click Here to Email badazzcougar     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ok correct me if I'm wrong here but wouldnt a higher stall converter cause the transmission as a whole to use more power than one that stalls at a lower RPM due to parasitic hydraulic loss? The slippage in the clutches inside the transmission is only going to cause power losses while its in a shifting mode. Once its fully in gear there is no power robbing slippage in the clutch pack.

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steve'66
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posted 12-31-2001 09:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by badazzcougar:
Ok correct me if I'm wrong here but wouldnt a higher stall converter cause the transmission as a whole to use more power than one that stalls at a lower RPM due to parasitic hydraulic loss? The slippage in the clutches inside the transmission is only going to cause power losses while its in a shifting mode. Once its fully in gear there is no power robbing slippage in the clutch pack.


Well OK I'll try,

A higher stall converter creates more torque than a low stall converter. Especially a good one. The stall increase is not created by sliping clutches.
The automatic uses a bit more power than a manual tranny to pump tranny fluid, and has more rotating mass than a manual. But the converter multiplies torque, and a high stall converter multiplies even more torque because the engine is higher up in its torque curve. Once it's fully in gear then the losses are the result of reciprocating mass. As I understand it anyway, I could be wrong cause "I don't like pink t-shirts" But, we were comparing stock autos to "built" autos, not manuals. Personally I think the car will be quicker with the auto than it was with the manual trannys. We'll find out in a couple weeks. But regardless, it will be more competitive as a bracket racer.

SteveW

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Fastymz
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posted 12-31-2001 09:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastymz   Click Here to Email Fastymz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well said Steve,
sorry but whats with the pink t-shirts.

Can't wait to for to get it to the track.

SCOOP

------------------
65 coupe,351w,RPM intake,Carter625,shorty headers,2.5 exhaust, Flowmasters,C4,open 8" 2:80,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,Crager SS,Black Suede.
MEM#1240

https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Fastymz.html

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steve'66
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posted 12-31-2001 10:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fastymz:
Well said Steve,
sorry but whats with the pink t-shirts.
SCOOP


Ron,

What happens when you crawl around under an auto car after the tranny blew? You got it yet?, "pink t-shirts"

SteveW

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Moneymaker
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posted 12-31-2001 10:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just a slight correction to Steve's great explanation. The high stall converter "transfers", not creates more torque as it takes the engine to a higher RPM range where it is generated. Rememeber that a torque converter is a multiplying coupler and acts like a slipping clutch up to a certain RPM, then locks up.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
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steve'66
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posted 12-31-2001 11:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Alex,

Thanks

SteveW

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clevelandstyle
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From: Connersville, IN
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posted 01-01-2002 01:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for clevelandstyle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As I understand it, an auto trans has planetary gears. These are not super efficient at transmitting power. I think Lenco transmissions were planetary, too. If you notice, no one uses them any more in Pro Stock.
This is just an obsevation of why an auto might use a little more power than a manual.

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Moneymaker
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posted 01-01-2002 01:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Todays racing automatic transmissions are so highly modified that almost no internal parts resemble the originals. Most of the planets are re machined and are now straight cut. There is verly little loss compared to a stock trans.
All you have to do is look at the NHRA and IHRA national records on line for the same classes stick vs auto. You will see that there is usually 2 tenths or less between the two (stick vs auto) and that is with giving up at least one extra gear. Sometimes 2 gears on the chebbies.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
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Blu Dawg
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posted 01-01-2002 01:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Blu Dawg   Click Here to Email Blu Dawg     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A c-4 won't lock up, right? I kind of feel like a torque convertor slippin on the top end costs some power, But that is my own opinion. My car runs 11.40's made 490 fwhp, and on a chassis dyno only shows 350rwhp. That is alot of loss. That is over 30% power loss, not sure what the deal really is, but the car should be running lower in the 11's or in the high 10's.

------------------
Brad H.
Blue '68 Cali. Special, 3.50's in a disk break 9 in., 4-bolt main SVO 351W w/3.750 stroke crank, 6.250 h-beam rods, 10.5:1 comp, 9 in. convertor C-4

Best time motor 11.40 @116.87 (7.23 @95 1/8)
Best N2O 10.60 @127 (6.76 @103 1/8)

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Moneymaker
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posted 01-01-2002 01:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Brad, a C-4 trans locks up just fine. The slippage is in the torque converter, not the trans if it is functioning correctly.
I thought that in a previous thread we has assertained that the bulk of your ET loss was in the 60 to 330 foot range. I think that the 9 inch converter is hurting you when you are not using the N20. You have as much supposed horsepower as I do and don't weigh much more. I agree that you should be at the very least in the 11.00 range. I feel that a little more attention to efficiancy in the suspension and a possible converter change could make a huge difference.
It will take 60 foot times in the low 1.50's and 330's in the 4.40's to get you to the 11.00's in the quarter mile.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
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chips67
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From: louisville, ky, usa
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posted 01-03-2002 06:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chips67   Click Here to Email chips67     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
hey alex...im granny shifting a toploader through all 4 gears before the traps...how much et drop could an automatic mean for me?

------------------
67 coupe, 650dp and rpm intake on 5.0 with afr 165 heads, 4 speed, 4.11's.....best so far is [email protected] in 1/8 mile with 1.79 60ft. time.

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Money Maker
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posted 01-03-2002 08:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Money Maker   Click Here to Email Money Maker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
With the "perfect" converter and a full roller lightweight trans you could pick up as much as .02. Then again with good traction and powershifting you could do the same with your current set up.

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rockafellz
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posted 01-04-2002 03:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rockafellz   Click Here to Email rockafellz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey Steve,

Where did you get the C4? What's in it? How firm are the 1-2, 2-3 shifts? And how much did it cost you?

I've been looking at the Dynamic Racing C4s and those have got me sold so far. Performance automatics have also gotten good reviews from people. Do you guys recommend any other shop?

Regards,

Erik

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steve'66
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posted 01-04-2002 03:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When I shopped around for the tranny Dynamic, and JPT were around 1450.00 for a rollerized race c-4 w/ hardened shaft rev valve body, trans brake, & a deep finned pan etc. The good converters ranged from $700 - $850. The sfi bellhousing was a couple hundred more, and don't forget the sfi flexplate & a blanket or shield. Shifts are quick and hard 1-2 & 2-3 under full throttle. Get a JPT, support a MM sponsor, plus they had good customer service.

SteveW

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chips67
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posted 01-04-2002 10:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chips67   Click Here to Email chips67     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
alex, you cant powershift a stock toploader without grinding gears. those toploaders that can be powershifted have been to jerico or liberty, or have something done that makes them unstreetable. those t-5 guys have it made.

------------------
67 coupe, 650dp and rpm intake on 5.0 with afr 165 heads, 4 speed, 4.11's.....best so far is [email protected] in 1/8 mile with 1.79 60ft. time.

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clevelandstyle
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posted 01-04-2002 11:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for clevelandstyle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by chips67:
you cant powershift a stock toploader without grinding gears.

Sure you can, Chip. If the trans is in GOOD working order, it will powershift. It may be time to freshen yours up. Probably has some of the brass rings broken. It's common. Nothing a little rebuild can't fix. Some of these guys might be able to tell you some "speed secrets" too.

[This message has been edited by clevelandstyle (edited 01-04-2002).]

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Moneymaker
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posted 01-04-2002 11:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Chip, wanna bet? I can powershift ANYTHING withour grinding gears. Seriously, you CAN powershift any top loader that is in good or decent shape.
Steve, thanks.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
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kid vishus
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From: huh?? what? who? ME!?!?!?!
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posted 01-04-2002 11:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by steve'66:
and don't forget the sfi flexplate
SteveW


Ssshhhh

dont tell anyone, I have been running a stock replacement flexplate all the time. I know, not smart, but those SFI flexplates are expensive.

Since I am actually contemplating trying the powerglide again, (and the whole rotating assembly needs rebalanced anyways) it might be time to buy a good flexplate.

[This message has been edited by kid vishus (edited 01-05-2002).]

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iamblackjack
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posted 01-05-2002 12:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for iamblackjack   Click Here to Email iamblackjack     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
REAL Men use a big STICK. I have a lot of people persuade me to put an automatic in mine (that are only interested in the 1/4 mile), but they don't understand that the 1/2 second or so you MIGHT loose is really worth the pleasure of the sound and feel of a stick (total control. ArrrArrrArrrArrr). I'm not knocking your auto, it's YOUR car. Ditto on the congrats.
quote:
Originally posted by 65_289:
You're a traitor to all stick-shift enthusiasts, and will be burned at the stake on the next full moon!!!!

J/K, as long as it makes you happy, then that is good. Congrats!


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steve'66
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posted 01-05-2002 12:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by iamblackjack:
REAL Men use a big STICK. I have a lot of people persuade me to put an automatic in mine (that are only interested in the 1/4 mile), but they don't understand that the 1/2 second or so you MIGHT loose is really worth the pleasure of the sound and feel of a stick (total control. ArrrArrrArrrArrr). I'm not knocking your auto, it's YOUR car. Ditto on the congrats.


Ther's nothing sweater than the sound of a four speed car rowing through the gears at the track. Too bad they don't have seperate classes in bracket racing, like they do in S & SS class racing.

SteveW

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Rory McNeil
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posted 01-05-2002 02:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rory McNeil   Click Here to Email Rory McNeil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Actually, Steve, there are some Stick Shift race events. TomP & I are both active members in the BC Super Shifters, an organization dedicated to drag racing with sticks. To check out our website, click onto:www.webspawner.com/users/supershifter/
There is also a stick racers group called the Ozark Mountain SuperShifters, I believe they are around Missourri, or there abouts. Our group races mainly at Mission Raceways, & Eagle Motorplex in Ashcroft, both in BC Canada. We usually have 10 or 12 race dates,with a points system in place. Our best turnout to date has been 34 cars, ranging from high 7`s, to 15 seconds (1/4 mile). Usual turnout is between 24-30 cars.
As for powershifting, although I have a Jerico 4 speed in my 428 Fairmont, my 302 Fairmont uses a T5, & I haved raced several of my street cars with stock toploaders,12&13 second cars, ALWAYS powershifting.The trans has to be in decent condition, & most importantly, the clutch has to disengage properly. The toploader is an excellent design, in fact the basic design is utilized in the Jerico 4 speed.

------------------
78 Fairmont 428 4 speed [email protected]
80 Fairmont 302 5 speed [email protected]
85 Mustang NHRA Stocker under construction, 302 5 speed

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kid vishus
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posted 01-05-2002 07:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Ozark Mountain Super SHifters runs in my area. The last I knew, the president of the group lived in the Davenport, (about 1/2 hour north/east of me). To run in that group the car must run faster than 10.99 in the 1/4, and 7.00 in the 1/8. The guys in the group for the most part are real good people. I am friends with several of them.

For bracket racing, it is cheaper (initial investment) to run an automatic and be competitive, than it is to row gears. And I LIKE being competitive.

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Fastymz
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posted 01-05-2002 12:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastymz   Click Here to Email Fastymz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nothing like a 4spd,carburated,hotrod running hard down the strip or street.You can hear carb and see the shifts.I have always said they should have a class for just auto's and one for sticks.Yes you can shift and set up a stick to kick as$.
But so can you set up an auto.When you see a well set up auto.The leaves the line and shifts so dam fast it almost sounds like it has one gear.I say either way is cool and both make sense.I stick with my auto,because thats what my car came with.I'm more of an old school hotrodder I still like it when the front end sits alittle higher and the rear tire to stick out alittle,and a carb is a most,hood SCOOP is a most.I like my auto and feel that for SteveW case an auto is the best choice.For fun I'd go with a stick any day.

SCOOP.

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65 coupe,351w,RPM intake,Carter625,shorty headers,2.5 exhaust, Flowmasters,C4,open 8" 2:80,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,Crager SS,Black Suede.
MEM#1240

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Fordwiser
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posted 01-05-2002 03:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fordwiser   Click Here to Email Fordwiser     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I second what Steve (and Alex) say about JPT!
Great people! No complaints at all about my JPT C-4
Roger

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chips67
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Registered: Jul 2001

posted 01-05-2002 05:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chips67   Click Here to Email chips67     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
hey alex....ive had my trans apart....everything looks fine, no broken pieces, no shavings...nothing. it is in good working order and i can powershift a lot of cars. its not lack of experience and the trans aint bad/broke. ive talked to a lot of old guys that used to row 4 speeds and all of them say you have to modify them if you are going to powershift them. if you or anybody knows somebody that is good, and knows their butts about toploaders...link me to them. if not, all i have to go on is the word of the old locals and my personal experience (which says im about to grind the gears off no matter how quick my leg/wrist is). my guess is that if you have powershifted a toploader, it was either modified or not very streetable.

------------------
67 coupe, 650dp and rpm intake on 5.0 with afr 165 heads, 4 speed, 4.11's.....best so far is [email protected] in 1/8 mile with 1.79 60ft. time.

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TomP
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From: Delta BC Canada
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posted 01-05-2002 05:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for TomP   Click Here to Email TomP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
haha ,the burned at the stake bit was funny!

I wouldn't go that far... but we are of course shocked and saddened by the loss.

My condolences to Melissa's right arm and left leg

[This message has been edited by TomP (edited 01-05-2002).]

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TomP
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posted 01-05-2002 05:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for TomP   Click Here to Email TomP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Geez , wastin...i mean "investing" $2500 in an automatic to be consistant is no bargain at all.

Try this

http://www.jericoperformance.com/]http://www.jericoperformance.com

You may wanna know that in equal competition amongst mainly automatic transmission competitors Kevin Helms is Stock Eliminator NHRA world champion... Jim Waldo runner-upped and son Eric WON the US Nationals with sticks. Better than half the Stock World Champs in the last 10 years have run stick cars. An automatic can be LESS consistant since heat affects it more than a stick. If you need proof of consistancy look at Pro Stock...no Powerglides or C4's there, those cars repeat within a couple thousandths run to run.

(Insert Wythors "End of Rant" thingie here )

[This message has been edited by TomP (edited 01-05-2002).]

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steve'66
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posted 01-05-2002 05:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Chips,

You can modify a toploader into a "bag box" by removing every other tooth from the 2nd 3rd & 4th gears as shown on this link. They'll do it for $350.00 extra.

http://www.4speedtoploaders.com/remanu1.jpg

SteveW

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steve'66
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posted 01-05-2002 05:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Geez!

TomP got so excited he came twice!
ROTFLMAO. . . .

\err, I mean posted twice.

SteveW

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kid vishus
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Posts: 1994
From: huh?? what? who? ME!?!?!?!
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 01-05-2002 05:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomP:
Geez , wastin...i mean "investing" $2500 in an automatic to be consistant is no bargain at all.


I have $1500 in my C4, a buddy who just bougth a Jerico paid $3500 for it, I have an $850 convertor, he had to buy a $750 adjustable clutch, I have a $125 shifter, his cost $450. Which was cheaper?
As for consistency, any auto with a good cooler will repeat within thousandths each pass. The pro stock cars run stickshifts (if you can call them that, they act more like an automitic with a clutch) because they take less horsepower to run.

It is still cheaper to make an automatic reliable and consistent with good power than a stick shift.

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chips67
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posted 01-06-2002 12:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for chips67   Click Here to Email chips67     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
steve....whats a "bag box"? is it streetable/practical?

------------------
67 coupe, 650dp and rpm intake on 5.0 with afr 165 heads, 4 speed, 4.11's.....best so far is [email protected] in 1/8 mile with 1.79 60ft. time.

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steve'66
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posted 01-06-2002 12:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by chips67:
steve....whats a "bag box"? is it streetable/practical?


err... Typo. sorry, I meant "bang box" and since I never ran one I dunno how streetable they are, but you can bang 'em into gear w/o the clutch!

SteveW

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steve'66
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posted 01-12-2002 09:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK, Update time.

It really wasn't a fair comparison between the 2 different manual trannys weve run behind the same 351w in Melissa's '66 Mustang bracket car. (Isn't fair to the c-4 that is) But here is the story;

She's logged hundreds of runs in the car with manual trannys from a toploader to a t-5. The best ever was a 12.52 with a 1.70 60'er about a year ago with the 3+od (4 speed toploader) The best with the t-5 was a 12.68 with a 1.68 60'er. Most runs (with the manual trannys and Melissa driving) were in the 12.7 to 13.0 range.

Now with everything relatively the same, same engine only a year older, same suspension, same et streets, etc. We ran the car today in the fog. The track was a skating rink! Cars were bouncing off the guard rails, there was dew accumulating on the windshields and on the track all day. So I'm hoping we can pull off a 13 something on the first run of the c-4 and stay off the guard rail. But on Melissa's first and only run of the day (a shakedown run, footbraking it and never running an auto before) she ran a spinning hesitating, 12.47 @ 108.974 mph with a paultry 1.902 60'er. Her comment "It felt slow"
I really think this thing will run a high 11 with some tweaking and a pair of real slicks. We gotta try launching off the two step/transbrake too, even before we add more h.p. later this year.

SteveW

[This message has been edited by steve'66 (edited 01-12-2002).]

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I65Stang
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From: Antelope, CA
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posted 01-12-2002 10:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for I65Stang   Click Here to Email I65Stang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The track sure was slick (most of the big boys werent even really running) and boy was it cold! Gotta love it when a slush box outdoes a stick . Now I gotta start getting parts for my swap .

------------------
Tim

M&M Member #35
1965 Mustang coupe, 200 I6, Holley 2300, Clifford header, true duals w/ 26" Smithys
1988 Mustang GT AOD vert, 15.810 @ 88.871 mph 100% stock w/ no traction
1976 Silverline Comoro 18' trihull ski boat, 188 hp 302 I/O, another toy
http://all.at/mustang
https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/I65Stang.html

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steve'66
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posted 01-12-2002 10:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Tim,

THANK YOU! For your help today. Couldn't have done the one run w/o you.


SteveW

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I65Stang
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posted 01-12-2002 10:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for I65Stang   Click Here to Email I65Stang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No prob Steve, I take FULL credit for the run . Lol, j/k of course, Melissa had a lil to do with it by driving .

------------------
Tim

M&M Member #35
1965 Mustang coupe, 200 I6, Holley 2300, Clifford header, true duals w/ 26" Smithys
1988 Mustang GT AOD vert, 15.810 @ 88.871 mph 100% stock w/ no traction
1976 Silverline Comoro 18' trihull ski boat, 188 hp 302 I/O, another toy
http://all.at/mustang
https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/I65Stang.html

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Fordwiser
Journeyman

Posts: 85
From: Metamora, Illinois
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posted 01-12-2002 10:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fordwiser   Click Here to Email Fordwiser     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Cool!!! She won't think it seems so slow after she uses the transbrake a few times! What kind of mph were you running before?
Roger

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steve'66
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posted 01-12-2002 11:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
MPH was about the same. Her best mph was uncorked at 110.462 w/a 12.724 et a couple years ago. Corked up the car ran 106-109 depending on weather and jetting with the manual trannys.

SteveW

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steve'66
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posted 01-12-2002 11:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
By the way it was corked up today.

SteveW

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Dr. Who
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Posts: 164
From: Redwood City, Ca.
Registered: Sep 2001

posted 01-13-2002 02:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dr. Who   Click Here to Email Dr. Who     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Good news Steve, and sounds like it took some talent to get down the track today. I guess we're just as happy we stayed home .

------------------
Moe! Larry! Cheese! Curly Howard

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Fastymz
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Posts: 3433
From: Reno Nv MEM#1240
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posted 01-13-2002 02:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastymz   Click Here to Email Fastymz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Steve glad to hear the auto paid off.I cant wait to hear about what it dose when it's all dailed in.

SCOOP

------------------
65 coupe,351w,RPM intake,Carter625,shorty headers,2.5 exhaust, Flowmasters,C4,open 8" 2:80,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,Crager SS,Black Suede.
MEM#1240

https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Fastymz.html

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kid vishus
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Posts: 1994
From: huh?? what? who? ME!?!?!?!
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posted 01-13-2002 08:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus   Click Here to Email kid vishus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Wait till you get some slicks on it and she uses the 'brake. She wont think it feels slow then.

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65_289
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Registered: Jul 2001

posted 01-13-2002 02:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 65_289   Click Here to Email 65_289     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So on these race-built autos, are you shifting it or letting it shift itself? And what exactly is a manual valve body?

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Fastymz
Gearhead

Posts: 3433
From: Reno Nv MEM#1240
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posted 01-13-2002 03:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastymz   Click Here to Email Fastymz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have always understood that a manual valve body means, that you shift it your self only.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong,I know thats not hard to do.

SCOOP

------------------
65 coupe,351w,RPM intake,Carter625,shorty headers,2.5 exhaust, Flowmasters,C4,open 8" 2:80,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,Crager SS,Black Suede.
MEM#1240

https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Fastymz.html

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Fastymz
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Posts: 3433
From: Reno Nv MEM#1240
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posted 01-13-2002 03:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastymz   Click Here to Email Fastymz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ok so it's my turn for Q.A.

Dose a trans brake hold the the brakes on or dose it work with the convertor,or what???

And dose a manual valve body shift faster then the a non manual body???

Thanks...SCOOP

------------------
65 coupe,351w,RPM intake,Carter625,shorty headers,2.5 exhaust, Flowmasters,C4,open 8" 2:80,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,Crager SS,Black Suede.
MEM#1240

https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Fastymz.html

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steve'66
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posted 01-13-2002 04:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK,

A manual valve body means it's manually shifted, only. A reverse manual valve body means the pattern is P,R,N,1,2,3. A trans brake engages 1st and reverse at the same time, locking the tranny until you release the button which disengages reverse and lets in run in first gear. (assuming you engage the t-brake while in first gear)


SteveW

[This message has been edited by steve'66 (edited 01-13-2002).]

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Fastymz
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posted 01-13-2002 05:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastymz   Click Here to Email Fastymz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
SteveW aren't you the know it all.


Thanks,SCOOP

------------------
65 coupe,351w,RPM intake,Carter625,shorty headers,2.5 exhaust, Flowmasters,C4,open 8" 2:80,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,Crager SS,Black Suede.
MEM#1240

https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Fastymz.html

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steve'66
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posted 01-13-2002 06:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fastymz:
SteveW aren't you the know it all.
Thanks,SCOOP

Naw,

I'm just a rookie. Lots of folks on here know WAY more that me.


SteveW

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Fastymz
Gearhead

Posts: 3433
From: Reno Nv MEM#1240
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posted 01-13-2002 06:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastymz   Click Here to Email Fastymz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by steve'66:
Naw,

I'm just a rookie. Lots of folks on here know WAY more that me.


SteveW


SteveW if your a rookie them what would that make me. .
Thanks for the help....


SCOOP


------------------
65 coupe,351w,RPM intake,Carter625,shorty headers,2.5 exhaust, Flowmasters,C4,open 8" 2:80,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,Crager SS,Black Suede.
MEM#1240

https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Fastymz.html

[This message has been edited by Fastymz (edited 01-13-2002).]

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steve'66
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posted 01-13-2002 06:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I dunno,

Maybe a "junior rookie"
I cwack myself up. LOL

SteveW

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Fastymz
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Posts: 3433
From: Reno Nv MEM#1240
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posted 01-13-2002 07:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastymz   Click Here to Email Fastymz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by steve'66:
I dunno,

Maybe a "junior rookie"
I cwack myself up. LOL

SteveW


I could live with Junior rookie,it's alot better then what my pops used to call me.
SteveW you should laugh at yourself every one else dose.

2nd Q.Do guys run the manual body because they use less power.Because I aways though you could not shift faster then an auto could.

SCOOP

------------------
65 coupe,351w,RPM intake,Carter625,shorty headers,2.5 exhaust, Flowmasters,C4,open 8" 2:80,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,Crager SS,Black Suede.
MEM#1240

https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Fastymz.html

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I65Stang
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Posts: 5087
From: Antelope, CA
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posted 01-13-2002 07:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for I65Stang   Click Here to Email I65Stang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fastymz:
2nd Q.Do guys run the manual body because they use less power.Because I aways though you could not shift faster then an auto could.

With a manual valve body you shift whenever you want to. This way you get your shift points in the peak of your powerband instead of relying on the tranny (only an electronic auto tranny with an aftermarket computer could do something similar [where you could change shift points]). Its like a stick tranny without the clutch and missed gears and funky shifting pattern .

------------------
Tim

M&M Member #35
1965 Mustang coupe, 200 I6, Holley 2300, Clifford header, true duals w/ 26" Smithys
1988 Mustang GT AOD vert, 15.810 @ 88.871 mph 100% stock w/ no traction
1976 Silverline Comoro 18' trihull ski boat, 188 hp 302 I/O, another toy
http://all.at/mustang
https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/I65Stang.html

[This message has been edited by I65Stang (edited 01-13-2002).]

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chips67
Gearhead

Posts: 537
From: louisville, ky, usa
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 01-14-2002 08:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chips67   Click Here to Email chips67     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
my biggest et leaps were just like that! one was a timing change, i retarded the timing, car felt like a slug, ran 3 tenths quicker than ever.

------------------
67 coupe, 650dp and rpm intake on 5.0 with afr 165 heads, 4 speed, 4.11's.....best so far is [email protected] in 1/8 mile with 1.79 60ft. time.

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steve'66
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Posts: 3653
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
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posted 01-14-2002 09:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Chip,

I hear ya, but the timing stayed the same. It was just a reaction to running an auto instead of a 5 speed manual. Lots less for the driver to do. Alex says glides are a boring ride, Mel says c-4s are a boring ride, compared to a t-5 anyway. But much more "deadly" in a bracket race. Now I gotta order a pair of real slicks, what Summit's number... LOL

SteveW

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I65Stang
Moderator

Posts: 5087
From: Antelope, CA
Registered: Jun 99

posted 01-14-2002 10:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for I65Stang   Click Here to Email I65Stang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
1-800-230-3030 (lol, sorry, was just looking through the catalog for my build up ).

------------------
Tim

M&M Member #35
1965 Mustang coupe, 200 I6, Holley 2300, Clifford header, true duals w/ 26" Smithys
1988 Mustang GT AOD vert, 15.810 @ 88.871 mph 100% stock w/ no traction
1976 Silverline Comoro 18' trihull ski boat, 188 hp 302 I/O, another toy
http://all.at/mustang
https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/I65Stang.html

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 3653
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 01-14-2002 11:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Gee Thanks Tim.

BTW, I talked to Arron at BA Racing and he recomends going for the all forged 408w instead of a cast 393 stroker. The cast 393 will have to be held to lower rpms and won't last like the good stuff will, so we're gonna bite the bullet and assemble a 600+ h.p. motor for this pony. I'll spend her inheritance now. While I can help her enjoy it. LOL If you need good peened arp 351w rods or rpm heads and intake, they'll be for sale in a couple months.

SteveW

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I65Stang
Moderator

Posts: 5087
From: Antelope, CA
Registered: Jun 99

posted 01-15-2002 01:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for I65Stang   Click Here to Email I65Stang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Lol, you are welcome Steve, I love helping other people spend their money .

Jezz, 600+ hp, now thats cool . My goal is to be running low 12's (dont really wanna get a 6-point bar at this time) so I think a 393 with a moderate cam (it will still be street and freeway driven, just not daily) will get me there and hopefully pretty cheaply . Seeming how you all are running that with the 351, I will be quite upset if a 393 wouldnt do it .

Btw, do you know if PAW sell blocks outright? About the only thing that will be hard to find would be the block itself and I wouldnt need a shortblock from a junkyard (yes, let me know when you are gonna sell the rods ). I have a line on some standard bore '69-72 blocks in SoCal for $250 which would need to be machined (guaranteed to be good).

Its only money right?

------------------
Tim

M&M Member #35
1965 Mustang coupe, 200 I6, Holley 2300, Clifford header, true duals w/ 26" Smithys
1988 Mustang GT AOD vert, 15.810 @ 88.871 mph 100% stock w/ no traction
1976 Silverline Comoro 18' trihull ski boat, 188 hp 302 I/O, another toy
http://all.at/mustang
https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/I65Stang.html

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 11493
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-15-2002 01:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wait until she has some time slips with 60 foots in the 1.50's and has the front end up about 12 inches or more STeve. SHe'll change her tune them about the car feeling slow. Just tell her to look at pics on MM or the one of the Colt from Pomona with me driving and what she has to look forward to.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00, '01, & '02
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28
Part time secret agent license #0089
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