The first test drive of the race c-4 w/ tight 8" converter built for the future 408W's spec is way cool even behind the "mild little 351w". Melissa's reaction was "I've been competing against these with the manual tranny? That's just wasn't fair!" She kept reaching for the clutch pedal when approching stop signs, but she's getting it. We haven't even tried the T-Brake yet! It stalls about 3900 rpm with the 351w and is suposed to stall about 4300 behind the 408w. I'm real interested in how it compares to her best times with the manual trannies. On the street it is fine, the car starts moving from a stop at around 1300 rpm and is very driveable. I still have to wire the temp gauge and wait for the rain to stop before we can give it much road time. But, so far it's WAY COOL! Opinions and comments are "of course" welcome.

SCOOP

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65 coupe,351w,RPM intake,Carter625,shorty headers,2.5 exhaust, Flowmasters,C4,open 8" 2:80,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,Crager SS,Black Suede.
MEM#1240

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Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00 & '01
Fleet of FoMoCo products
Moneymaker Bio
US Class Nationals link

I'll let you know when the roads dry out.

As far as the temp gauge I just need to mount it and wire it. I have the t-brake solenoid wired to the back-up switch in the Pro Ratchet shifter. Makes backing up a little easier.

SteveW

quote:

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Originally posted by 65_289:

J/K, as long as it makes you happy, then that is good. Congrats!

---

It makes me happy when the win light comes on in Melissa's lane. Racing a manual tranny in competitive bracket racing events is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Sure you might win some, but you have to be lucky or damned good.

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve'66:
It makes me happy when the win light comes on in Melissa's lane. Racing a manual tranny in competitive bracket racing events is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Sure you might win some, but you have to be lucky or damned good.

SteveW

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Steve my gran pops always told be its better to be lucky then good.

Hey Steve dose a well built auto suck less power then a stock one.And what kind of difference is there.Has you know in about two weeks I'm having my c4 rebuilt with lots of go fast stuff in it.I cant wait to feel the difference,boy I hope I feel a differnce.

SCOOP

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65 coupe,351w,RPM intake,Carter625,shorty headers,2.5 exhaust, Flowmasters,C4,open 8" 2:80,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,Crager SS,Black Suede.
MEM#1240

SCOOP

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65 coupe,351w,RPM intake,Carter625,shorty headers,2.5 exhaust, Flowmasters,C4,open 8" 2:80,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,Crager SS,Black Suede.
MEM#1240

quote:

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Originally posted by badazzcougar:
Ok correct me if I'm wrong here but wouldnt a higher stall converter cause the transmission as a whole to use more power than one that stalls at a lower RPM due to parasitic hydraulic loss? The slippage in the clutches inside the transmission is only going to cause power losses while its in a shifting mode. Once its fully in gear there is no power robbing slippage in the clutch pack.

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Well OK I'll try,

A higher stall converter creates more torque than a low stall converter. Especially a good one. The stall increase is not created by sliping clutches.
The automatic uses a bit more power than a manual tranny to pump tranny fluid, and has more rotating mass than a manual. But the converter multiplies torque, and a high stall converter multiplies even more torque because the engine is higher up in its torque curve. Once it's fully in gear then the losses are the result of reciprocating mass. As I understand it anyway, I could be wrong cause "I don't like pink t-shirts" But, we were comparing stock autos to "built" autos, not manuals. Personally I think the car will be quicker with the auto than it was with the manual trannys. We'll find out in a couple weeks. But regardless, it will be more competitive as a bracket racer.

Can't wait to for to get it to the track.

SCOOP

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65 coupe,351w,RPM intake,Carter625,shorty headers,2.5 exhaust, Flowmasters,C4,open 8" 2:80,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,Crager SS,Black Suede.
MEM#1240

quote:

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Originally posted by Fastymz:
Well said Steve,
sorry but whats with the pink t-shirts.
SCOOP

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Ron,

What happens when you crawl around under an auto car after the tranny blew? You got it yet?, "pink t-shirts"

Thanks

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Brad H.
Blue '68 Cali. Special, 3.50's in a disk break 9 in., 4-bolt main SVO 351W w/3.750 stroke crank, 6.250 h-beam rods, 10.5:1 comp, 9 in. convertor C-4

Where did you get the C4? What's in it? How firm are the 1-2, 2-3 shifts? And how much did it cost you?

I've been looking at the Dynamic Racing C4s and those have got me sold so far. Performance automatics have also gotten good reviews from people. Do you guys recommend any other shop?

Regards,

Erik

quote:

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Originally posted by chips67:
you cant powershift a stock toploader without grinding gears.

---

Sure you can, Chip. If the trans is in GOOD working order, it will powershift. It may be time to freshen yours up. Probably has some of the brass rings broken. It's common. Nothing a little rebuild can't fix. Some of these guys might be able to tell you some "speed secrets" too.

quote:

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Originally posted by steve'66:
and don't forget the sfi flexplate
SteveW

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Ssshhhh

dont tell anyone, I have been running a stock replacement flexplate all the time. I know, not smart, but those SFI flexplates are expensive.

Since I am actually contemplating trying the powerglide again, (and the whole rotating assembly needs rebalanced anyways) it might be time to buy a good flexplate.

quote:

---

Originally posted by 65_289:
You're a traitor to all stick-shift enthusiasts, and will be burned at the stake on the next full moon!!!!

J/K, as long as it makes you happy, then that is good. Congrats!

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by iamblackjack:
REAL Men use a big STICK. I have a lot of people persuade me to put an automatic in mine (that are only interested in the 1/4 mile), but they don't understand that the 1/2 second or so you MIGHT loose is really worth the pleasure of the sound and feel of a stick (total control. ArrrArrrArrrArrr). I'm not knocking your auto, it's YOUR car. Ditto on the congrats.

---

Ther's nothing sweater than the sound of a four speed car rowing through the gears at the track. Too bad they don't have seperate classes in bracket racing, like they do in S & SS class racing.

SCOOP.

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65 coupe,351w,RPM intake,Carter625,shorty headers,2.5 exhaust, Flowmasters,C4,open 8" 2:80,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,Crager SS,Black Suede.
MEM#1240

I wouldn't go that far... but we are of course shocked and saddened by the loss.

My condolences to Melissa's right arm and left leg

Try this

http://www.jericoperformance.com/]http://www.jericoperformance.com

You may wanna know that in equal competition amongst mainly automatic transmission competitors Kevin Helms is Stock Eliminator NHRA world champion... Jim Waldo runner-upped and son Eric WON the US Nationals with sticks. Better than half the Stock World Champs in the last 10 years have run stick cars. An automatic can be LESS consistant since heat affects it more than a stick. If you need proof of consistancy look at Pro Stock...no Powerglides or C4's there, those cars repeat within a couple thousandths run to run.

(Insert Wythors "End of Rant" thingie here )

You can modify a toploader into a "bag box" by removing every other tooth from the 2nd 3rd & 4th gears as shown on this link. They'll do it for $350.00 extra.

http://www.4speedtoploaders.com/remanu1.jpg

TomP got so excited he came twice!
ROTFLMAO. . . .

\err, I mean posted twice.

quote:

---

Originally posted by TomP:
Geez , wastin...i mean "investing" $2500 in an automatic to be consistant is no bargain at all.

---

I have $1500 in my C4, a buddy who just bougth a Jerico paid $3500 for it, I have an $850 convertor, he had to buy a $750 adjustable clutch, I have a $125 shifter, his cost $450. Which was cheaper?
As for consistency, any auto with a good cooler will repeat within thousandths each pass. The pro stock cars run stickshifts (if you can call them that, they act more like an automitic with a clutch) because they take less horsepower to run.

It is still cheaper to make an automatic reliable and consistent with good power than a stick shift.

quote:

---

Originally posted by chips67:
steve....whats a "bag box"? is it streetable/practical?

---

err... Typo. sorry, I meant "bang box" and since I never ran one I dunno how streetable they are, but you can bang 'em into gear w/o the clutch!

It really wasn't a fair comparison between the 2 different manual trannys weve run behind the same 351w in Melissa's '66 Mustang bracket car. (Isn't fair to the c-4 that is) But here is the story;

She's logged hundreds of runs in the car with manual trannys from a toploader to a t-5. The best ever was a 12.52 with a 1.70 60'er about a year ago with the 3+od (4 speed toploader) The best with the t-5 was a 12.68 with a 1.68 60'er. Most runs (with the manual trannys and Melissa driving) were in the 12.7 to 13.0 range.

Now with everything relatively the same, same engine only a year older, same suspension, same et streets, etc. We ran the car today in the fog. The track was a skating rink! Cars were bouncing off the guard rails, there was dew accumulating on the windshields and on the track all day. So I'm hoping we can pull off a 13 something on the first run of the c-4 and stay off the guard rail. But on Melissa's first and only run of the day (a shakedown run, footbraking it and never running an auto before) she ran a spinning hesitating, 12.47 @ 108.974 mph with a paultry 1.902 60'er. Her comment "It felt slow"
I really think this thing will run a high 11 with some tweaking and a pair of real slicks. We gotta try launching off the two step/transbrake too, even before we add more h.p. later this year.

SteveW

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Tim

THANK YOU! For your help today. Couldn't have done the one run w/o you.

------------------
Tim

SCOOP

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65 coupe,351w,RPM intake,Carter625,shorty headers,2.5 exhaust, Flowmasters,C4,open 8" 2:80,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,Crager SS,Black Suede.
MEM#1240

SCOOP

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65 coupe,351w,RPM intake,Carter625,shorty headers,2.5 exhaust, Flowmasters,C4,open 8" 2:80,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,Crager SS,Black Suede.
MEM#1240

Dose a trans brake hold the the brakes on or dose it work with the convertor,or what???

And dose a manual valve body shift faster then the a non manual body???

Thanks...SCOOP

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65 coupe,351w,RPM intake,Carter625,shorty headers,2.5 exhaust, Flowmasters,C4,open 8" 2:80,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,Crager SS,Black Suede.
MEM#1240

A manual valve body means it's manually shifted, only. A reverse manual valve body means the pattern is P,R,N,1,2,3. A trans brake engages 1st and reverse at the same time, locking the tranny until you release the button which disengages reverse and lets in run in first gear. (assuming you engage the t-brake while in first gear)

SteveW

Thanks,SCOOP

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65 coupe,351w,RPM intake,Carter625,shorty headers,2.5 exhaust, Flowmasters,C4,open 8" 2:80,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,Crager SS,Black Suede.
MEM#1240

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fastymz:
SteveW aren't you the know it all.
Thanks,SCOOP

---

Naw,

I'm just a rookie. Lots of folks on here know WAY more that me.

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve'66:
Naw,

I'm just a rookie. Lots of folks on here know WAY more that me.

SteveW

---

SteveW if your a rookie them what would that make me. .
Thanks for the help....

SCOOP

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65 coupe,351w,RPM intake,Carter625,shorty headers,2.5 exhaust, Flowmasters,C4,open 8" 2:80,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,Crager SS,Black Suede.
MEM#1240

https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/Fastymz.html

Maybe a "junior rookie"
I cwack myself up. LOL

SteveW

quote:

---

Originally posted by steve'66:
I dunno,

Maybe a "junior rookie"
I cwack myself up. LOL

SteveW

---

I could live with Junior rookie,it's alot better then what my pops used to call me.
SteveW you should laugh at yourself every one else dose.

2nd Q.Do guys run the manual body because they use less power.Because I aways though you could not shift faster then an auto could.

SCOOP

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65 coupe,351w,RPM intake,Carter625,shorty headers,2.5 exhaust, Flowmasters,C4,open 8" 2:80,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,Crager SS,Black Suede.
MEM#1240

quote:

---

Originally posted by Fastymz:
2nd Q.Do guys run the manual body because they use less power.Because I aways though you could not shift faster then an auto could.

---

With a manual valve body you shift whenever you want to. This way you get your shift points in the peak of your powerband instead of relying on the tranny (only an electronic auto tranny with an aftermarket computer could do something similar [where you could change shift points]). Its like a stick tranny without the clutch and missed gears and funky shifting pattern .

------------------
Tim

M&M Member #35
1965 Mustang coupe, 200 I6, Holley 2300, Clifford header, true duals w/ 26" Smithys
1988 Mustang GT AOD vert, 15.810 @ 88.871 mph 100% stock w/ no traction
1976 Silverline Comoro 18' trihull ski boat, 188 hp 302 I/O, another toy
http://all.at/mustang
https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/I65Stang.html

I hear ya, but the timing stayed the same. It was just a reaction to running an auto instead of a 5 speed manual. Lots less for the driver to do. Alex says glides are a boring ride, Mel says c-4s are a boring ride, compared to a t-5 anyway. But much more "deadly" in a bracket race. Now I gotta order a pair of real slicks, what Summit's number... LOL

------------------
Tim

BTW, I talked to Arron at BA Racing and he recomends going for the all forged 408w instead of a cast 393 stroker. The cast 393 will have to be held to lower rpms and won't last like the good stuff will, so we're gonna bite the bullet and assemble a 600+ h.p. motor for this pony. I'll spend her inheritance now. While I can help her enjoy it. LOL If you need good peened arp 351w rods or rpm heads and intake, they'll be for sale in a couple months.

Jezz, 600+ hp, now thats cool . My goal is to be running low 12's (dont really wanna get a 6-point bar at this time) so I think a 393 with a moderate cam (it will still be street and freeway driven, just not daily) will get me there and hopefully pretty cheaply . Seeming how you all are running that with the 351, I will be quite upset if a 393 wouldnt do it .

Btw, do you know if PAW sell blocks outright? About the only thing that will be hard to find would be the block itself and I wouldnt need a shortblock from a junkyard (yes, let me know when you are gonna sell the rods ). I have a line on some standard bore '69-72 blocks in SoCal for $250 which would need to be machined (guaranteed to be good).

Its only money right?

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Tim