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Author
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Topic: What will I run after this modification????
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bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 172
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 08-06-2001 10:49 AM
   
I am in the process of bulding a 4.44 spooled center section to replace my 3.50 trac-loc gearset.. I was running 13.90 @ 100 mph with the 3.50 set using 24" street radials.. 60 ft times averaged out about 2.1 - 2.2 sec...********************************************
What will I run through the 1/4 mile with the 4.44 gears and 26" DOT tires, everything else being equal.??
******************************************** The one that comes the closest to guessing my new E.T and MPH will get the "Ford Racing gearhead award"...  ------------------
'66 Stang with traction problem!!
289 320hp 4 spd 3.50 trac-loc
http://www.picturelist.net/Images/dbhard/1966.jpg [This message has been edited by bluestreek (edited 08-26-2001).]
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 2844
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 08-06-2001 11:08 AM
13.5-13.6 @ 100mph assuming your 60'ers will improve to 1.8-1.9s. Good luck,  SteveW
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clevelandstyle
Journeyman Posts: 30
From: Connersville, IN
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 08-06-2001 09:40 PM
13.52 @ 100
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bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 172
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 08-07-2001 08:25 PM
How come you guys aren't giving me any MPH increase?? I should be able to run out 4th gear at peak rpm instead of shifting and crossing at 5000..
Also I was under the impression that, in the process of improving my 60' times, I will also gain MPH in the first 60', which should in turn give me little higher overall MPH at the finish.. Is this not true??
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 2844
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 08-07-2001 08:37 PM
Miles per hour is a result of horsepower, and et is a result on traction and 60' times. Sorry about that, but a one legger 2.79 geared car can run about the same mph with or without gears.  But the et will drop with gears and traction. If you know the weight and mph of a car you can figure the h.p. easily regardless of gearing, traction, etc. That's why we'll add weight to the rear to improve et, while loosing mph. BTW it may go up to 101mph, depending on how good the air is. SteveW
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bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 172
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 08-07-2001 09:31 PM
Steve,
Consider this... My engine makes more HP at 6000 rpms than 5000 rpms..
Ok, If I cross the finish line at 6000 rpms instead of 5000 rpms, wouldn't my average HP have to increase also??
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 2844
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 08-07-2001 09:43 PM
But the average isn't gonna change much. You might pick up a mph, but without a h.p. increase don't expect too much. Good luck, and there's only one way to find out for sure.  I'll take et over mph anyday! SteveW
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 1163
From: a bad scene from "children of the corn"
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 08-07-2001 10:32 PM
I actually wouldnt be suprised to see it lose a mile an hour but have a quicker ET. I have changed gears or motor tune, and made the car quicker, but actually lost mph. Generally when a car picks up mph, it has spun the tires. Last weekend was a good example. My car, when it hooked would run 1.400 60' timmes and run 6.57 @ 102.5 mph. When it didnt hook, it would go 1.435 60' , run 6.63 @ 103.3 mph. The mph increase was due entirely to the tire spin. Also, when my street car was running 13.30's, it was running high 1.80 60' times and only running 100 mph. So my guess is; 13.45 @ 99 mph
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bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 172
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 08-07-2001 10:56 PM
I can't wait to see what the gear change and a little traction is gonna feel like on the little cruiser.. The engine combination really turns on the juice above 5200 rpms..
I'm still waiting on the spool.. Thanks for the info guys..
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bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 172
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 08-15-2001 07:44 PM
Got the 4.44 gears and spool installed in the rear.. One of my rear axel bearings felt like it was full of gravel, so I'm gonna replace them too while I got it tore down.. I sure do wish I had a press!! .. A shop wants $20 per axel to install $15 bearings!!
The sh** never ends..
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TomP
Moderator Posts: 2589
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99
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posted 08-15-2001 08:10 PM
yep, like Steve 'splained ya... it won't make the car do 110mph, so it won't run mid 12's. The ET might improve a bunch into the low 13's tho...maybe 13.35 if it hooks, thats where you stand to gain a bunch. Try launching harder and the times will drop.
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ragtopjr
Gearhead Posts: 1728
From: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada.
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 08-15-2001 09:27 PM
You will run a 13.90 with these changes.
Your gear change will not help you with traction, unless you get some tires that will hook.
if your tires wont hook with 3.50's then going to a steeper gear will not help.I was able to get the same Et's with 2.73's as I was with 3.73 with all else the same.
sorry JMHO ------------------
Ed
Heart mods:Trick High flow titanium valve ported & polished Listen close: "tic tic tic" No folks thats not a noisy lifter thats the sound of big flow!
1984 5.0L LX Conv 3600 lbs 13.41 at 101.89 SIR
http://ragtopjr.hypermart.net/
http://ragtop-racing.stangnet.com/
http://mbmustangs.tripod.com/index.htm
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70coupe
Journeyman Posts: 77
From: Toronto,Ontario,Canada
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 08-15-2001 10:44 PM
13.67@101
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 2844
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 08-16-2001 12:52 AM
quote:
Originally posted by bluestreek:
********************************************
What will I run through the 1/4 mile with the 4.44 gears and 26" DOT tires, everything else being equal.??
********************************************
These 26" DOT tires are M/T et streets aren't they? If you heat them up in the water box, my original guess stands.
By the way you can keep your award. But get out there and let us know who won anyway!! SteveW
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bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 172
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 08-16-2001 01:56 AM
quote:
Originally posted by ragtopjr:I was able to get the same Et's with 2.73's as I was with 3.73 with all else the same.
sorry JMHO [/B]
Either you have a high stall converter or
Your transmission must have a much lower first gear than my close ratio 4-speed toploader.. My engine pulls best between 4200 and 6200 rpms..With every rearend ratio change, my launch and shift points move a little closer to my peak engine power .. This final gear change should have me just about peaked when I cross the line!!
Here's how I have progressed: (Stage 1)
Stock '68 289 block, stock '68 heads, competition headers,Edelbrock Performer cam, Edelbrock 625 carb, stock iron 4V intake, 3 speed trans, dual exhaust, 24" tires,8" open diff. 2.80 gears ------- 15.40s@ 89 mph (Stage 2)
Stock 289 block, Lunati Bracketmaster 230*/.512 cam, super comp headers, Edelbrock RPM intake, stock hand ported 289 heads w/ 1.85 & 1.55 SS valves, HD single springs, CC roller tip rockers,Edelbrock 625 Carb, 4-speed toploader, dual 2 chamber Flowmasters, 9" trac-loc w/ 2.80 gears and 24" tires( $1600 total for these upgrades)
Edelbrock carb ------ 14.30s @ 96 mph
Holley 600DP using
primaries only ----- 14.30s @ 95 mph
Holley using 4brls --- 14.20s @ 99 mph (spinning)
24" tires to 26" ----- 14.10s @ 99 mph
3.50 gears ------------ 13.90s @ 100mph
4.44 gears ------------- ????  ???? Through all these changes my 60' times have dropped from 2.5 sec. to 2.1 sec and it's always been run using 60s profile street tires. I'll work on traction for Stage 3.. [This message has been edited by bluestreek (edited 08-16-2001).]
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bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 172
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 08-16-2001 02:14 AM
quote:
Originally posted by steve'66:
These 26" DOT tires are M/T et streets aren't they? If you heat them up in the water box, my original guess stands.
By the way you can keep your award. But get out there and let us know who won anyway!!SteveW
Steve,
Aw come on!! Surely you can't pass up the "bighead" award.. I'll change it to the "Gearhead" award if you like that better.
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Mike_R
Journeyman Posts: 69
From: Indianapolis, IN 46237
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 08-16-2001 08:42 AM
I may be the only one that thinks this way, but I do believe you could possibly pick up some MPH with this gear change. Not major MPH but maybe 1-3 MPH. I only say this based on my experiences with my car which also for a long time had a close ratio 4-speed. I tried alot of gear changes with it and I always did my best MPH through the 1/8th or 1/4 mile when crossing the finish line at or slightly above my peak horsepower RPM. With the 3.50 you were only crossing at about 4900 RPM and with the 4.44 (w/26" tires) you should cross more around 57-5800 which means your car will get a chance to pull in 4th gear for a little while and use some it's power before you cross the finish line. Of course I could be totally wrong I'm just making a guess like everybody else.If everything goes well and you can pull a 1.8 60 ft time, my guess will be 13.40 @ 102.
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n2oMike
Gearhead Posts: 218
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 08-16-2001 12:14 PM
A set of sticky tires are your best guarantee for good et's. A small set of 26" slicks or ET-Streets is your best bet. The smallest slick (26x8.5) is all you need. (You *might* go up one size in width for ET-Streets.) I ran my car down into the 11.30's years ago with an old set of 26x8.5 slicks. Too much tire will slow the car down due to increased rolling resistance.If I had a choice, I'd go with a real set of slicks (although the ET-Streets aren't that far behind). Good Luck! Using the same tires as what you had before, I doubt you'll see much of an improvement. The 4.44 gears will make it that much harder to hook up off the line. $300 worth of tires will help performance more than anything else. The gears, in combination with the slicks, should help the car 60ft around the mid 1.7's if launched hard... and every tenth shaved off the 60ft is worth around a tenth and a half at the other end. You do the math. I also strongly recommend a 2-step rev limiter for good, full throttle, consistent launches. You'll also need a torque strap on the engine (with slicks) or you'll rip the rubber on the motor mounts. Good Luck! ------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/motorcitymustang/cmml/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
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bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 172
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 08-16-2001 01:49 PM
quote:
Originally posted by n2oMike:
You'll also need a torque strap on the engine (with slicks) or you'll rip the rubber on the motor mounts. Good Luck!
OMG!! Now you're scaring me!! 
Does this mean with 4.44 gears and spool that I'm gonna find all my weakest links.. Beleive it or not, the only thing that I've ever broken was when I finally moved up to the Holley 600DP and it blew a d*** header pipe off in third gear.. The guy running in the next lane "behind" me said he thought I had cut in the nitrous.. Scared him so bad that he backed off!!
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Fordwiser
Journeyman Posts: 38
From: Metamora, Illinois
Registered: Dec 2000
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posted 08-16-2001 05:38 PM
Traction will find the most weak links! But that's when it gets fun! Roger
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 15754
From: Saco, Maine MCA # 47773
Registered: May 99
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posted 08-16-2001 06:12 PM
Driveshaft, you are the weakest link.Goodbye. ------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC
Ford. The closer you look, the better WE look!
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 1163
From: a bad scene from "children of the corn"
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 08-16-2001 07:11 PM
Rubber motor mounts will go buh-bye first. I broke one with a basically stock C with slicks and a 3500 convertor. Under power, the collector got up against the floor, and caught my carpet on fire
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ragtopjr
Gearhead Posts: 1728
From: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada.
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 08-17-2001 03:16 AM
Traction will find all the weak parts and show them to you in a hurry.I still stand by my opinion that unless you change the tire to a sticky before you run it will not really change what it runs.
good luck If your not breaking parts, your not trying ------------------
Ed
Heart mods:Trick High flow titanium valve ported & polished Listen close: "tic tic tic" No folks thats not a noisy lifter thats the sound of big flow!
1984 5.0L LX Conv 3600 lbs 13.41 at 101.89 SIR
http://ragtopjr.hypermart.net/
http://ragtop-racing.stangnet.com/
http://mbmustangs.tripod.com/index.htm
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bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 172
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 08-17-2001 10:30 AM
OK, I get the idea!! The driveshaft don't really worry me. I built it from from a Cadillac unit..It's the stock rear U-joint clips that worry me.. I suppose some safety loops are in order..
I'll get the axels and new bearings back in this evening after work.. I still want to get a baseline this weekend on how she reacts with the lower gears and spool.. I'm gonna take some 26" and 24" tires with me to the track, to guage which size might work the best for the combination..Thanks for all the input.. You guys are the best!!
Dan Dragrace Learning Curve
____________________________________________
**Champion**
Pro
Semi-Pro
Dangerous----------------me
Wannabe-------------
Rookie---------
Dummie-
____________________________________________
*******1yr 2yr 3yr 4yr 5yr 10yr 15yr 20yr**** [This message has been edited by bluestreek (edited 08-17-2001).]
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ragtopjr
Gearhead Posts: 1728
From: Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada.
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 08-17-2001 08:13 PM
good luck with the weekend and have fun ------------------
Ed
Heart mods:Trick High flow titanium valve ported & polished Listen close: "tic tic tic" No folks thats not a noisy lifter thats the sound of big flow!
1984 5.0L LX Conv 3600 lbs 13.41 at 101.89 SIR
http://ragtopjr.hypermart.net/
http://ragtop-racing.stangnet.com/
http://mbmustangs.tripod.com/index.htm
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clevelandstyle
Journeyman Posts: 30
From: Connersville, IN
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 08-17-2001 11:02 PM
I don't mean to scare ya, but, a friend of mine recently broke his 9" third member in half. That broke his drive shaft and streched the lakewood steel bellhousing away from the block. It broke off the end of the trans tailshaft and it twisted the "new" moser axles. All this with a 283 chebbie and 8.5" slicks. He had to replace the whole drive train. Never under estimate what traction can do!!
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bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 172
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 08-20-2001 10:50 PM
Finally made time to try the new gears and spool out this weekend on the road..
I definitely have a traction problem now!! The 24" X 8" street tires are useless!!  I can't even mash the gas in first or second gear now.. I even tried taking a friend of mine along with me, called Big'un, that weighs around 300 lbs.. I still couldn't keep from burning the tires off in 1st and 2nd and part way through 3rd, then amazed him with a good loud tire-screeching 4th.. He made me proud by commenting that I needed some d*** headrests.. I never knew my Mustang could be so much fun!!
I have a desolate backroad close to the house with a 1/4 mile marked off that is slightly up hill and I still managed to pull 6000 rpms in 4th with Big'un in the seat next to me.. Can't wait to take it to the track.. It's gonna be a blast !! [This message has been edited by bluestreek (edited 08-26-2001).]
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chips67
Gearhead Posts: 108
From: louisville, ky, usa
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 08-20-2001 11:15 PM
speaking of motor mounts, i still have the stock 67 mounts in my car and the breather is putting dents in my hood. the only reason i aint got solid mounts yet is im scared it will ride like sh!t on the street. with the springs and subframe connectors, its almost like a covered wagon now. how much will i notice the solid mounts?? torque stap is out of the question since there is NO PLACE to bolt it to on the motor. im sure it would rip a plug out of my aluminum heads if i tried and the water pump/timing chain bolts are too wimpy.------------------
67 coupe, 650dp and rpm intake on 5.0 with afr 165 heads, 4 speed, 4.11's.....best so far is [email protected] in 1/8 mile with 1.89 60ft. time.
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n2oMike
Gearhead Posts: 218
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 08-21-2001 10:53 PM
You should be able to mount it to the big, top hole on the front of the driver's side head. Run it from there down to where the sway bar mounts. That part of the head is pretty beefy. Just be sure the bolt screws in about all the way, and it will be fine. I used a cable. Good Luck! ------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/motorcitymustang/cmml/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 15754
From: Saco, Maine MCA # 47773
Registered: May 99
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posted 08-22-2001 05:25 PM
Don't forget the bolt-through-the-motor-mount trick.------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC
Ford. The closer you look, the better WE look!
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bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 172
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 08-22-2001 11:58 PM
I thought that was a shadetree mechanics secret, dern it!!
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Mike_R
Journeyman Posts: 69
From: Indianapolis, IN 46237
Registered: Feb 2001
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posted 08-23-2001 10:20 AM
This may sound like shadetree engineering at it's finest, but I wrapped a small chain around my driver's side motor mount about three times around and put a hardened bolt through the two ends to hold it together. In this configuration the chain gets very little stress, and the rubber is still there for cushion. It works for me at least.
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bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 172
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 08-23-2001 11:21 AM
Your right!! That thar's even shadier.. I did that before on a BB Pontiac GTO after the mount gave up.. It started wearing out the U-joints and splines very quick after that.. I was amazed at how much more "snappier" it felt on the starting line.. The log chain works real good !!
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 2844
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 08-23-2001 12:01 PM
I did the bolt through the motor mounts trick on my 4x4 once. I made it to the Rubicon Springs before the motor mount's steel frame ripped off the engine block. This extreme 4 wheeling is a lot more punishing that simple engine torque. (imagine a 600 pound engine getting slammed up and down over boulders for 16 miles.) The engine is now chained and it's made that trip 4 times now with the stock rubber mounts.Melissa's 351w is chained between the aluminum head and the frame. It's stock rubber mounts are still in fine shape after 2 years of weekly drag racing. The chain gives the engine room to move within the limits of the flexible rubber mounts. FWIW
SteveW
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bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 172
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 08-26-2001 01:08 AM
OK first results are in on the 4.44 gears and spool in my '66.... First of all I didn't break anything!! Yipee!! Second, I ran my quickest E.T yet!!.. 3rd.. I made the mistake of leaving the 24" street tires on it... woops!! After initially trying it out on the street with the 24" tires and figuring out traction was gonna be a problem, I decided to throw a couple of bags of landscape gravel in the trunk as a ballast and take it to the track today... The Holley 650 DP decided to start running rich on the way there, but was still driveable so I went ahead.. It was very hot and muggy when I took it for the first time trial run.. She hooked up real good with a 2.08 60 ft, but just after the 1000 ft mark it topped out at 6200 rpms.. I decided to back out of it and the car wound up running 13.90 @ 90MPH.. I knew then that I would need 26" tires to really test the new gears.. The 650 DP was starting to load up worse at idle so I decided to stick on my Holley 390 DP and just see what it would do.. I took out one bag of gravel and made a quick pass.. The street tires once again let go in 1st and 2nd. And I wound up running a dismal 2.30 60 ft, and finished out with a 14.24 !! It was time for eliminations so I would get at least one more test run.. I decided to throw the 2nd bag of gravel back in the trunk and try one more time.. I dialed in a modest 14.20 and staged beside a '70 Nova dialed in at 13.90.. ... This was gonna be fun!! I reacted with a .580 light, to his .590 and the race was on.. My car left a little sloppy but still managed a 2.05 60' and 13.80 @ 94mph.. I had to back out of it again before floating my stock valves.. I broke out by .41 sec. but was really impressed at how good the little 390 cfm DP performed. Would anyone have guessed that I would be able to run 13.80 using a 390 cfm Holley and 24" real street radials??  Needless to say, 26" sticky tires will be my next improvement..
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