I thought it would be fun to "Bench build" an engine on this forum! Starting completely from scratch, so this means it's all pretty much wide open for any ideas or comments. Once all the ideas and oppinions have been shared I will go back and build the engine.

There is a catch however, the engine has to be built under sertain design criteria.....

1. The engine has to be streetable and reliable. (10:1 92 octane ect.)
2. It must be based from a 289/302/5.0 block.
3. Total price has to be under 3,000.00. (revised)
4. Use a 750 CFM Carter carberator and Hooker SuperComp headers (already have those)that means heads with stock or near stock exhaust port locations.
5. 400 HP would be nice too
6. Best bang for the buck.

Intakes, Aluminum heads, 347 ci, water pumps, distributors, ect. whatever you guys and gals can come up with!

[This message has been edited by SundanceKid (edited 07-24-2001).]

1. Stock 289 block rebuild with .010/.010 crank, flat top pistons and chrome moly rings..
2. Windage tray
3. A set of '68-'70 289 or 302 2bbrl heads,hand ported, and machined to accept 1.90/1.55 stainless steel valves.
4. Hyd. cam and lifter kit with 228/234 duration/.512 lift/110* center. (slightly lopey idle)
5. Roller tip rockers
6. HV fuel pump
7. RPM intake

Get out your caculator!!

I don't think you can make that kind of power in a streetable car for that much money. What I would do though is start looking around for a used set of aftermarket heads. You can probably find a set of aluminum heads somewhere for $500. The stroker will send you over the top in $$$s.

You can probably get the shortblock done for $1500 including the cam. I'd probably go hydraulic on the cam just because I don't enjoy adjusting the lash. I liked the Comp Cams 280H. Almost like the one Steve recommended except hydraulic. If you can find assembled aftermarket heads for $500
then you would be at about $2200 for the long block with a Performer RPM intake. You'll need the rest of that money to buy the little things. I would say to go with a high enery ignition but you'd go over budget. You also might consider saving the rest for the cooling system.

We did it on Melissa's car with a 351w, but it was close to $4000 "after the fat lady sang". We had the carb and headers like you do. The torque and bottom end can't be beat by a 289/5.0, and you don't have to turn 7,000 rpm either. FWIW

I have already:
750 Edlebrock Carb
1 3/4" headers
Accel 300+ Ignition, or MSD 6AL (I have both)
I can do "some" of the machine work and ALL of the assembly.
I have one 289 and one I think is a 289 for blocks. Heads have adjustable rockers.

Jegs has a 347 stroker kit for 1100.00ish includes all nessasary rotateing assembly.
Northern Auto may have a low priced kit as well? Summits kit is pricey!
If I use my block and have it freshened and or a summit 5.0 block for 300.00.....

OK so I'm not building a Chevy LOL

Comments or recomendations on AFR, World/Dart, TrickFlow, GT40, Brodix, Heads?

Is a 347 worth the trouble? Is a 347 a aftermarket thing or is it possible to do useing ford parts from a junk yard?
Cam recomendations?
Intake recomendations?

1500.00 for heads and valvetrain
200.00 for intake
1300.00 for the block and rotateing assembly

It should be do-able for cheaper, didn't say it would be easy?

As for engine specs for your application I will detail my engine. It was bought used but runs very well.
Stock rebuilt bottom end with forged TRW's
Cam is Motorsport version of edelbrock's perfromer RPM. I LOVE this cam. It has a lopey idle and is very torquey on the bottom end, yet still pulls to 6000+. I had a crane that speced out 226/226 .488/.488 108 lobe centers and this cam just blows it away in power. The specs on the rpm cam are 224/234 .496/.520 112.
Heads are bowl ported gt-40 flow on them is supposedly 218 intake 154 exhuast. These numbers are in reach of a stock head with a little knowledgeable porting.
Intake was a stealth (I am running a vic jr.)
Carb was a 650
The previous owner had this on the chassis dyno and put 272 hp to the rear wheels. This is about 320 flywheel Hp. Very driveable Hp. I am unable to get track times as my tranny went south, but he ran high 12's in a 3000lb car with 4.10 gears.

I ran ported stock heads for years and my car ran great. At the time there were few choices for Fords. When I finally installed som TFS heads years later I was amazed at increase in top end performance.

People also have different opinions about streetable. To me a car with 4.11 and ETs is not but to others it is. If you have a 5spd with a tall overdrive then the 4.11s are okay.

A lot of the quarter mile time depends on the launch. The mph helps to indicate the power. An everyday driver doesn't always benefit from being able to launch from a dead stop which is the realm of ETs and convertors.

My friend used to turn 12.2 in the quarter with his Pinto and a 289. That motor didn't cost him over $2K. It had nothing special in it at all. The time was all in the launch. At the strip he could tear me up but from a roll he couldn't keep up. It all comes down to what you want to do with the car. In my case I like the drags but not enough to build a car for the quarter mile.

Does anyone have experience with these guys, and do you think the kits components are any good?

Here is the link to the website.

http://www.pmeracing.com/

quote:

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Originally posted by JAAZZY:
Stock heads are the cheapest when you can do all the port work yourself.

So what is the mph for that 11.4 run?

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For me a stock head is something you self port and don't turn over 6000 rpm, unless your Alex. Everybody says go aftermarket for better bang for the buck. My thinking is you may give up a little Hp but you gain knowledge to be used later. Like for when you want that really big Hp engine you can port those TW by yourself instead of paying some one. You may find TW's on e-bay for $500 but I bet you need to rebuild them which adds to the cost. I know I wouldn't trust them without a through going over. I got a set of C8OE's off e-bay only to get them to the shop and be told they had a crack welded up. Good thing I only have $50 invested in them(including shipping). They are now turning into a practice set one of which is getting cut in 1/2.

As far as Mikes car goes I am not sure on his MPH on the N/A runs. He usually ran it on a 200 shot with about 26* of total timing. This netted him a [email protected] with a 1.52 60ft on a "stock" suspension with a 4 speed. I have talked with Mike on numerous occasions and he is very knowledgeable. If he is reading this I am sure he will post the number.

FYI, Ebay will refund your money up to $250 with a $25 deductible. I've only had good luck on Ebay but I only buy from people with a track record. Try it out maybe you can get half of your investment back.

quote:

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Originally posted by jdsgallops:
For me a stock head is something you self port and don't turn over 6000 rpm, unless your Alex. Everybody says go aftermarket for better bang for the buck. My thinking is you may give up a little Hp but you gain knowledge to be used later. Like for when you want that really big Hp engine you can port those TW by yourself instead of paying some one. You may find TW's on e-bay for $500 but I bet you need to rebuild them which adds to the cost. I know I wouldn't trust them without a through going over. I got a set of C8OE's off e-bay only to get them to the shop and be told they had a crack welded up. Good thing I only have $50 invested in them(including shipping). They are now turning into a practice set one of which is getting cut in 1/2.

As far as Mikes car goes I am not sure on his MPH on the N/A runs. He usually ran it on a 200 shot with about 26* of total timing. This netted him a [email protected] with a 1.52 60ft on a "stock" suspension with a 4 speed. I have talked with Mike on numerous occasions and he is very knowledgeable. If he is reading this I am sure he will post the number.

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The heads are ported within a micron of their lives. The bowls are huge. I've never had access to a flowbench, but they seem to work. JDSGallops has one of them right now. He's supposed to study it and get if flowed for me... He is free to post the results if he wants. The valves and seats have 8-9 years of abuse on them (and are a little sunken from that and a few valve jobs) and will probably affect the results a bit.

I did these back when the only thing out was the "AR" (Alan Root) head, that was later sold as the Motorsport J302... and was WAY expensive. If I was doing it over today, I'd DEFINITELY go with a set of aftermarkets. By the time money is spent on larger valves, machining for them, springs, retainers, hardware, and all the machining, you'll have around $500 in the stockers (if you use cheap stuff), and you'll still have a set of stock heads. I used good stuff, and had all good machine work done and had close to a grand in mine... AND did one hell of a lot of grinding!

JDS might give you a 3rd party non-biased rundown on them... They are pretty good for a set of stockers, but I'd never do it again!

I -did- do a quick job that resembled my heads (porting only) for a guy and charged $350. He was happy, but will have as much in them as a set of aftermarkets when he's done.

I guess it is cool to go pretty fast with stock heads, though...

Good Luck!

quote:

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Originally posted by n2oMike:

JDS might give you a 3rd party non-biased rundown on them... They are pretty good for a set of stockers, but I'd never do it again!

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Since I have your ok Mike I will. First a little background info. I got into high performance when I moved to FL when I was 19 and bought a 67 cougar as my mode of transportation. It was a 289 2v car that got me through culinary school. After returning home, Green Bay Wi area, upon graduation I drove the car for the summer and then tor it apart for a rebuild. That engine ended up in my current mustang instead of the cougar, and it was sold. I had a friend do some port work on the heads before the engine went together. It basicly was a bowl blend and removal of exhaust bumps. Nothing special. The engine dropped a valve after 7000mi. So I said bigger is better and bought a different cam and did some more porting on my own. I figured after reading a couple of magazine articles I could do this. So I went at it. This was the first set of oversize valve heads I did. I had fooled around with a set of late 70's heads and just made them look good previously. This performance of this engine ended up being [email protected] in my 83gt. Lackluster at best. I started blaming the port job. I figured I had ground too much out of the wrong places. WRONG after I recieved Mikes head(Thanks Mike) I ruled out that possibility. The only way for me to explain the difference is WOW. Mike has ground enough out of his heads that I can feel the weight difference between mine and his. I do have rockers on my heads yet but Mikes have studs everywhere, manifold and all. Having learned more about porting I took a dial caliper and spring caliper and started measuring openings on both heads. This is what I came up with.
Mike Me gt-40's
Intake height 2.00 2.00 1.86
" widith 1.14 1.13 1.17
" Bowl 1.68 1.445 1.45
exhaust height 1.325 1.435 1.5
" widith 1.2 1.09 1.165
" Bowl 1.42 1.12 1.38

I've read hundreds of articles and books on porting, from Hog it out till you have a strait shot, Bernoulli's law of air flow dynamics, to importance of the short side radius, to induceing swirl within the port ect.

But if you don't have a knack for it or a CNC machine it realy is luck of the draw.

I have had very good luck with porting although not with a dremel! I would strongly recomend at least a carbid bit and a high speed drill at a minimum.

The fact still remains, you will spend almost the same amount of coin to end up in the same place for more effort with the 289/351 heads. You will get less efficient combustion chambers. An extra 40 lbs. over an aluminum counterpart. I "would think" the GT40 heads could be a medium between the two and with a little cleaning up would do nicely.
Then again, I am deffinately NOT an expert on Ford engines.
From my Chevy background as I see it;
Fords on paper would have a more ideal intake setup then a Chevy. However, due to all the development of Chevy intake manifolds I feel Chevy has a slight advantage, with exception to all out competition motors.
It is easier to get equal intake runner length and flow with the Chevy setup useing current production sand molds. Fords have a restricted exhaust. Even stupid Chevy guys know Ford exhaust ports suck! I feel that this side of the head is the most in need of improvement. If you don't belive me take a look at a 305 Chev to a 302 Ford or a 350 Chev to a 351 Ford flow specs on stock heads or even aftermarket ones.
Worst of all I think aftermaket Ford heads are limiting themselves to catter to current cam grinds that over cam the exhaust side! Wouldn't it make more sence to have the cam specs on the intake and exhaust be the same and make the head flow in proper proportion? Instead, cam companies add tons of exhaust duration and lift to compensate for poor exhaust flow. If the ports were proportionate, you could bring in the intake sooner for more cylinder filling and higher VE stats without affecting valve overlap.

Blah, Blah, Anyway, I'm getting off the subject here ain't I?

Any recomendations on aftermarket heads?

I am no longer considering a stroker engine due to a poor cost to benifit ratio, that is for the extra cost and effort a 302 could be made to make the same power.

Thanks for the help.

Having spent many an hour with a grinder in my hand I must agree with jdsgallops on a couple of points.

If you are going to port heads it is best to learn on iron stockers. For a couple of reasons. They are cheap and they are iron. The fact that they are iron is a big one, you can easily screw up an aluminum head with a carbide bit and an air grinder. Also the aftermarket heads tend to be pretty good out of the box and unless you are decent with the grinder you will probably do more harm than good.

Also, it is very possible to make good power with factory parts. God knows, as Ford guys, we had to do it for years before the aftermarket stepped up and filled that gap. jdsgallops has a point in that you learn things by working with what you have.

If you can afford the aftermarket parts are they worth it? I have Edelbrock heads on my 390, and the price difference between them and a set of real medium risers that were well done was not that much. But then again, as any FE owner will tell you, the parts ain't cheap!

SundanceKid is correct, porting is best left to artists. It takes a steady hand and a good eye to get the stuff consistent from port to port. In the end its all about getting the air into the cylinder and there are as many theories as there are head porters out there. Its all in the combo.

Now about that long vs. short rod stuff, that is quite a discussion. Maybe somebody should start a new thread for that one.

Sundance, I have cleaned up GT-40's on my car right now. They were done by a race shop in Jacksonville FL. Flow is reportedly 218/154. Those numbers are obtainable from a stock head with some knowledgeable head porting. You also have a much cheaper casting to start with, and wouldn't have pedestal mount rockers. The "P" casting also has the header fitment problem. There are some guys out there right now running pretty impressive times with ported P heads.

As for using ported factory heads... there is a place. If you want a serious engine, and are allowed to use aftermarket castings, by all means go for it. If the engine combo is fairly mild, and no major machining is required to the heads BREAK OUT THE GRINDER!! Hey, if you're doing a rebuild and aren't wanting to purchase aftermarket valves, double springs, guide plates, big studs and all, then grinding on the stock heads makes plenty of sense. It's free horsepower. If a serious engine is planned that calls for a lot of machine work on the heads, don't waste your time and money. Go aftermarket.

It hard to screw up the tiny exhaust ports in a SBF head. As long as you stay off the floor and don't dig into the short side radius too bad, you can't hurt them. What those exhausts need the most is a serious hogging out. I make the roof one straight shot from the exit to the top of the bowl... by completely grinding out the hump and valve guide boss. Do this, and try and center the valve stem in the port the best you can, and the exhaust will be vastly improved.

The intake takes a bit more finess... and are (by far) what I spent the most time on.

JB-Weld is a porter's best friend when mistakes occur on intake ports. It holds up well. I've used it several times. Exhausts are a problem since they operate at a much hotter temperature, and JB won't do. I've seen high temperature products advertised, but haven't had to use them yet.

I read everything I could get my hands on when it came time to port those 289 heads. I studied, and studied, and studied some more. Knowledge is power. The aftermarket was not an option, and I wanted to go fast. There is a good feeling about going fast with your own handiwork. When the engine was first built, there weren't very many small blocks running anywhere near that fast. The heads were the bottleneck in small block ford performance. Thanks go out to the aftermarket for opening that up. Fast fords are everywhere now!

Try this link for good tips on entry-level porting...

http://www.sa-motorsports.com/diyport.htm

Good Luck!

Im planning a rebuild from ground up with complete new parts and as for now I would like to know what is the most HP that a 289 V8 can dish out. it would be a daily driver. I dont really know how my budget will be since i will buy parts through out the year, but lets say $4000 in parts alone not including machine work.

About that 91 octane thing, Im a little dissapointed about that, I roll up to a shell and thats all they had, 91. But honestly will one octane actually make that big of a differance? I have also noticed that my engine has responded better with 87 octane, would it just need tunning, i know its past due.

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Under Construction 66 Coupe

quote:

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Originally posted by 66 Racer:
Hey,

Im planning a rebuild from ground up with complete new parts and as for now I would like to know what is the most HP that a 289 V8 can dish out. it would be a daily driver. I dont really know how my budget will be since i will buy parts through out the year, but lets say $4000 in parts alone not including machine work.

About that 91 octane thing, Im a little dissapointed about that, I roll up to a shell and thats all they had, 91. But honestly will one octane actually make that big of a differance? I have also noticed that my engine has responded better with 87 octane, would it just need tunning, i know its past due.

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A 289 or 302 block will safely stand around 500-600 horsepower if all the machine work is spot-on and there are no flaws in the parts.

You can achieve this by building an extremely finicky "race" type engine with a super aggressive cam, compression, ect that needs to be buzzed to the moon to make power... or the cam, compression and rpm can be scaled back to a more reliable level and have the difference made up with a shot of nitrous.

My recipe is to build an engine with a good set of heads that has a pump gas compression ratio for no-hassle driving... then when racing time comes around, replace the pump gas with race fuel, arm the bottle, and run 10.60's at close to 130mph.

For a real, carbureted STREET car, it's the only way to go. An engine like this will last years before it needs a major service, where a naturally aspirated 10 second 289-302 will need freshened up at least once every year. Race engines also require race fuel at all times and are a pain in the a$$ to drive on any kind of regular basis.

Nitrous makes truly STREETABLE 10 second small blocks a reality.

Just -my- recipe, YMMV

Good Luck!

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quote:

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Originally posted by bluestreek:
qoute from Mike: "Nitrous makes truly STREETABLE 10 second small blocks a reality."

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I agree 100%, nitrous is "a poor man's blower" It is just an oxide agent injected in liquid form. You have to make sure the correct amout of fuel is injected along with the "oxygen" or you will torch the pistons. The stuff works, but you better know what you're doing. All that said, I wouldn't run it on a bracket car. It's just too hard to have the same pressure in the bottle every pass and it's too expensive in a class where consistency is the name of the game. Not lowest et.

quote:

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Originally posted by Doc:
There?s no limit on a nitrous motor for how much you can dial in

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Well, there -is- a saturation point with the bottle, and it also follows the law of diminishing returns.

As far as the saturation point is concerned, the engine will only flow so much air, fuel, nitrous, etc through its ports. At a point, you can keep installing larger jets, but the car does not go much (if any) faster. Restrictive intakes, and especially exhaust systems don't allow a lot of street cars to make use of much more than 100-125hp worth.

Optimizing the engine for use with nitrous allows it to make much better use of it.

As for the law of diminishing returns... You get a whole lot more out of that first 100hp than the second. There will be a lot more of an et drop with that first 100hp than going from 100 to 200hp. That additional jetting gets harder and harder on the engine as well.

As for being an "easy" or "brainless" install that only requires reading the instruction on the box... FORGET IT!
They simply tell you how to put the kit on the car... Tuning is a whole nother' story! Fuel type, fuel pressure, bottle pressure, timing, plugs, etc. all have to be right for the power level.

Good Luck!

You guys are something else...

Don

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Previously Known As Don H McDonald
Brilliant Blue 1966 2+2
Soon To Be 302 w/5spd
https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/BigD.html

Just look at the Mustang racing groups and the street car heads up racers. The N20 guys are looking for a break, they don't want to race the turbo guys cause they are steady getting there asses handed to them on a plate.

Myself i never spend big money on what i can't make myself, i don't buy a lotta whiz-bang doo-dads that don't help the end goal.

Factory heads can only be ported to a limit, thats where the aftermarket advantage lies. Not making full use of an expensive aluminum head is a waste of money...but lotsa folks out there do that,it keeps the economy moving,so it's a good thing ,no?

If ya gotta spend big money to get seats enlarged, milled for screw in studs,etc... aftermarket is best, but potential for more power is a better reason.

quote:

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Originally posted by Doc:
Norm Chang has a 90 Mustang coupe with a carb and turbo that went 8.64 on a 10.5 tire at 347 inches, that is 1320 feet too! I'd say a carb setup is worth the effort .

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As for nitrous tuning, look at the following web site.

http://www.supermegajayman.com/car_stuff/nitrous_tuning.htm

Good Luck!

quote:

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Originally posted by n2oMike:
As stated earlier, nitrous is best for a CARBED STREET engine. Turbos and superchargers are nothing but a headache when combined with carburetors and normal street driving. A street engine (when not on the bottle) can be calibrated to drive with perfect streetability. Tuning a carb to work with a turbo or blower is always a compromise... It will work well wide open, or in a seriously detuned state. It's just nearly impossible to get blowers right without going to EFI. For those who are successful, I saulte you!

As for nitrous tuning, look at the following web site.

http://www.supermegajayman.com/car_stuff/nitrous_tuning.htm

Good Luck!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doc:
Gale Banks makes or carries just about anything turbo related, and Norman drives his 8 second Mustang on the street, not for the hop to the store but it does see street cruises and seems rather mild (and quiet)till it's on the turbo. I'll see if I can find an online source for Banks.

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http://www.bankspower.com/index.cfm

quote:

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Originally posted by Doc:
Gale Banks makes or carries just about anything turbo related, and Norman drives his 8 second Mustang on the street, not for the hop to the store but it does see street cruises and seems rather mild (and quiet)till it's on the turbo. I'll see if I can find an online source for Banks.

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