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Author Topic:   FORUM BENCH BUILT ENGINE!
SundanceKid
Gearhead

Posts: 650
From: UT
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 07-24-2001 04:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SundanceKid   Click Here to Email SundanceKid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here's the deal, I am building an engine for my "65" Mustang. The buildup will take place over the next year or so.

I thought it would be fun to "Bench build" an engine on this forum! Starting completely from scratch, so this means it's all pretty much wide open for any ideas or comments. Once all the ideas and oppinions have been shared I will go back and build the engine.

There is a catch however, the engine has to be built under sertain design criteria.....

1. The engine has to be streetable and reliable. (10:1 92 octane ect.)
2. It must be based from a 289/302/5.0 block.
3. Total price has to be under 3,000.00. (revised)
4. Use a 750 CFM Carter carberator and Hooker SuperComp headers (already have those)that means heads with stock or near stock exhaust port locations.
5. 400 HP would be nice too
6. Best bang for the buck.

Intakes, Aluminum heads, 347 ci, water pumps, distributors, ect. whatever you guys and gals can come up with!


[This message has been edited by SundanceKid (edited 07-24-2001).]

[This message has been edited by SundanceKid (edited 07-25-2001).]

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Doc
Gearhead

Posts: 466
From: Redwood City, Ca. USA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 07-24-2001 04:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doc   Click Here to Email Doc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Pretty broad order! You couldn't get a stocker rebuilt right where I live for $2500 much less make 400 horses and have it live. This is a good question if you loosen up the paramiters about $4000 more .

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jkilroy
Gearhead

Posts: 1289
From: Austin, TX
Registered: Dec 99

posted 07-24-2001 08:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jkilroy   Click Here to Email jkilroy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Where do you buy 97 octane? The highest I can find in Austin is 92.

------------------
Jay Kilroy
68' Fastback GT 390
"No such thing as a cam thats too big"

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unklshu
Gearhead

Posts: 523
From: San Bernardino, Ca
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 07-24-2001 09:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for unklshu   Click Here to Email unklshu     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
and here in California they are dropping the octane rating for super to 91

joe

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Mpcoluv
Gearhead

Posts: 337
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 07-24-2001 11:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mpcoluv   Click Here to Email Mpcoluv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Machine work on the block and heads can run close to $1000. I think cam and valvetrain along with pistons will eat up at least $800
Dart windsor Jr. heads will run you around $800, maybe a little less if used. Run an RPM air-gap intake

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 3653
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 07-24-2001 12:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A good rebuild, windsor jr heads, Comp 282s cam, roller rockers. Home port the heads, and you might bring it in for around $2500. Hp will be around 330-350 at the flywheel.

SteveW

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bluestreek
Gearhead

Posts: 607
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 07-24-2001 01:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bluestreek   Click Here to Email bluestreek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You could save about $400 on heads by using stock modified 289,302, or 351W heads, and use the extra cash to spend on the rest of the build-up.. I netted 340 HP from this combo:

1. Stock 289 block rebuild with .010/.010 crank, flat top pistons and chrome moly rings..
2. Windage tray
3. A set of '68-'70 289 or 302 2bbrl heads,hand ported, and machined to accept 1.90/1.55 stainless steel valves.
4. Hyd. cam and lifter kit with 228/234 duration/.512 lift/110* center. (slightly lopey idle)
5. Roller tip rockers
6. HV fuel pump
7. RPM intake

Get out your caculator!!

The 2Brrl heads allowed it to run on 89 octane fuel.. A stroker is totally out of the question for anything under $5000.. A streetable 400HP engine is easily obtainable with good stock heads and block and 100 HP shot of laughing gas under the carb...

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JAAZZY
Gearhead

Posts: 666
From: Bay Area, CA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 07-24-2001 01:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JAAZZY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was going to ask the same question down the road for a little more extoic combo...

I don't think you can make that kind of power in a streetable car for that much money. What I would do though is start looking around for a used set of aftermarket heads. You can probably find a set of aluminum heads somewhere for $500. The stroker will send you over the top in $$$s.

You can probably get the shortblock done for $1500 including the cam. I'd probably go hydraulic on the cam just because I don't enjoy adjusting the lash. I liked the Comp Cams 280H. Almost like the one Steve recommended except hydraulic. If you can find assembled aftermarket heads for $500
then you would be at about $2200 for the long block with a Performer RPM intake. You'll need the rest of that money to buy the little things. I would say to go with a high enery ignition but you'd go over budget. You also might consider saving the rest for the cooling system.

I think a combo like this with street tires & gears could put you in the high 13s to low 14s at around 101-103mph.

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chips67
Gearhead

Posts: 537
From: louisville, ky, usa
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 07-24-2001 11:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chips67   Click Here to Email chips67     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
how much work are you doing yourself? if you are talking about having everything done forget 400hp. i'd say start with a decent used 5.0 motor. that gets you past the machine work $ problem. edelbrock rpm intake and a cheap holley 600. get the winsor world products cast heads and one of the fms 303 roller grinds....depends on if you have auto or manual trans which would work best. 1 5/8 or 1 3/4 primary headers. im thinking if you dont like my used 5.0 idea, then something else has to give. you could spring for just the absolute required machine work for a cheap rebuild but then you are looking for e-bay or used pieces to put on it to save there. if you got [email protected] then you can do this motor for $2500 and get 400hp or darn close to it. but you are gonna have to do all the work (vice machining) yourself and you are gonna have to shop around. if you take your motor to a machine shop then come home and call jegs you aint gonna get far. get your motor and a decent set of cast aftermarket heads first. by the time you spend the money for the stuff to port stock heads, then have them reworked, you will kick yourself for not getting aftermarket heads.

------------------
67 coupe, 650dp and rpm intake on 5.0 with afr 165 heads, 4 speed, 4.11's.....best so far is [email protected] in 1/8 mile with 1.91 60ft. time.

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 3653
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 07-24-2001 11:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Kid,

We did it on Melissa's car with a 351w, but it was close to $4000 "after the fat lady sang". We had the carb and headers like you do. The torque and bottom end can't be beat by a 289/5.0, and you don't have to turn 7,000 rpm either. FWIW

SteveW

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chips67
Gearhead

Posts: 537
From: louisville, ky, usa
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 07-25-2001 12:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for chips67   Click Here to Email chips67     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
yeah, if youre hell bent on this 750 carb then stick it on a 351w...its a bit big for a 302.

------------------
67 coupe, 650dp and rpm intake on 5.0 with afr 165 heads, 4 speed, 4.11's.....best so far is [email protected] in 1/8 mile with 1.91 60ft. time.

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SundanceKid
Gearhead

Posts: 650
From: UT
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 07-25-2001 02:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SundanceKid   Click Here to Email SundanceKid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK, to answer a few questions first;
I live at 4800 ft. elev. my experience has been bigger carbs work up in the hills, I know I will get some flak on this. 100 CFM larger then for sealevel works best, I don't know why, but it does? Also Octane is sold per area for example 87 is the highest octane sold in Denver due to elev. One of the neat things about living in the mountains is we can run higher octane 10:1 is very possible and 10.5:1 is iffy. Some guys even run 11:1 with octane boosters or a home brew of toulene.

I have already:
750 Edlebrock Carb
1 3/4" headers
Accel 300+ Ignition, or MSD 6AL (I have both)
I can do "some" of the machine work and ALL of the assembly.
I have one 289 and one I think is a 289 for blocks. Heads have adjustable rockers.


Jegs has a 347 stroker kit for 1100.00ish includes all nessasary rotateing assembly.
Northern Auto may have a low priced kit as well? Summits kit is pricey!
If I use my block and have it freshened and or a summit 5.0 block for 300.00.....

OK so I'm not building a Chevy LOL

Comments or recomendations on AFR, World/Dart, TrickFlow, GT40, Brodix, Heads?

Is a 347 worth the trouble? Is a 347 a aftermarket thing or is it possible to do useing ford parts from a junk yard?
Cam recomendations?
Intake recomendations?

1500.00 for heads and valvetrain
200.00 for intake
1300.00 for the block and rotateing assembly

It should be do-able for cheaper, didn't say it would be easy?

Thanks for the input thus far.

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jdsgallops
Gearhead

Posts: 285
From: Green Bay, WI
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 07-23-2001 01:35 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jdsgallops   Click Here to Email jdsgallops     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here is a link to a site(Fletch's carbbed mustang's) that is a 400hp 302 built by Joe Sherman that appeared in 5.0/car craft mgazines a while back. http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/3553/tech/sherman/sherman.htm
Please note the use of STOCK heads. You guys that say throw aftermarket on right a way make me sick. In a budget application with a person having average mechanical skills the stock head is easily the cheapest way to go. Alex, N20mike66, and a few others have shown that the stock head works very well with the right combo of parts. Just check out N20mike66's combo out in his 66 coupe. He ran 11.4's N/A and mid 10's on the spray. Are the stock head the BEST head ? NO But if we could all have the best what fun would anything be?

As for engine specs for your application I will detail my engine. It was bought used but runs very well.
Stock rebuilt bottom end with forged TRW's
Cam is Motorsport version of edelbrock's perfromer RPM. I LOVE this cam. It has a lopey idle and is very torquey on the bottom end, yet still pulls to 6000+. I had a crane that speced out 226/226 .488/.488 108 lobe centers and this cam just blows it away in power. The specs on the rpm cam are 224/234 .496/.520 112.
Heads are bowl ported gt-40 flow on them is supposedly 218 intake 154 exhuast. These numbers are in reach of a stock head with a little knowledgeable porting.
Intake was a stealth (I am running a vic jr.)
Carb was a 650
The previous owner had this on the chassis dyno and put 272 hp to the rear wheels. This is about 320 flywheel Hp. Very driveable Hp. I am unable to get track times as my tranny went south, but he ran high 12's in a 3000lb car with 4.10 gears.

[This message has been edited by jdsgallops (edited 07-23-2001).]

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JAAZZY
Gearhead

Posts: 666
From: Bay Area, CA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 07-23-2001 05:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for JAAZZY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Stock heads are the cheapest when you can do all the port work yourself. If you pay somebody to do the work the difference is not so great. I surf around Ebay on occassion and just yesterday there was a set of TFS heads listed at $500. If the cost is close I don't see the problem.

I ran ported stock heads for years and my car ran great. At the time there were few choices for Fords. When I finally installed som TFS heads years later I was amazed at increase in top end performance.

People also have different opinions about streetable. To me a car with 4.11 and ETs is not but to others it is. If you have a 5spd with a tall overdrive then the 4.11s are okay.

A lot of the quarter mile time depends on the launch. The mph helps to indicate the power. An everyday driver doesn't always benefit from being able to launch from a dead stop which is the realm of ETs and convertors.

My friend used to turn 12.2 in the quarter with his Pinto and a 289. That motor didn't cost him over $2K. It had nothing special in it at all. The time was all in the launch. At the strip he could tear me up but from a roll he couldn't keep up. It all comes down to what you want to do with the car. In my case I like the drags but not enough to build a car for the quarter mile.

So what is the mph for that 11.4 run?

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289u4ea
Journeyman

Posts: 34
From: Pleasanton, CA
Registered: May 2000

posted 07-23-2001 07:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 289u4ea   Click Here to Email 289u4ea     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I won't try to outguess the experts here on pricing and HP. Just a bit of added information. I have run across a vendor that is selling Ford stroker kits starting at $825 for a 331 and $845 for a 347.

Does anyone have experience with these guys, and do you think the kits components are any good?

Here is the link to the website.


http://www.pmeracing.com/

------------------
'65 FB 289

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jdsgallops
Gearhead

Posts: 285
From: Green Bay, WI
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 07-26-2001 02:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jdsgallops   Click Here to Email jdsgallops     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JAAZZY:
Stock heads are the cheapest when you can do all the port work yourself.


So what is the mph for that 11.4 run?


For me a stock head is something you self port and don't turn over 6000 rpm, unless your Alex. Everybody says go aftermarket for better bang for the buck. My thinking is you may give up a little Hp but you gain knowledge to be used later. Like for when you want that really big Hp engine you can port those TW by yourself instead of paying some one. You may find TW's on e-bay for $500 but I bet you need to rebuild them which adds to the cost. I know I wouldn't trust them without a through going over. I got a set of C8OE's off e-bay only to get them to the shop and be told they had a crack welded up. Good thing I only have $50 invested in them(including shipping). They are now turning into a practice set one of which is getting cut in 1/2.

As far as Mikes car goes I am not sure on his MPH on the N/A runs. He usually ran it on a 200 shot with about 26* of total timing. This netted him a [email protected] with a 1.52 60ft on a "stock" suspension with a 4 speed. I have talked with Mike on numerous occasions and he is very knowledgeable. If he is reading this I am sure he will post the number.


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chips67
Gearhead

Posts: 537
From: louisville, ky, usa
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 07-26-2001 11:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for chips67   Click Here to Email chips67     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
a couple stock castings are decent after port work and if you have the tools already (because they arent free!) and you have the knowledge or skill then go right ahead and port those stock heads. be sure you have the money to have them rebuilt AFTER you ported them, because if you never ported a set, working on a fresh set is a bad idea. you aint gonna find anybody to do a decent job for less than $400 NO WAY. so go ahead and port those stock heads and if you dont own your own machine shop and you never done it before they might flow as good as a set of edelbrocks.....if youre lucky....and theres more to heads than flow...another story. you will be hard pressed to beat the value on aftermarket heads, and if youre gonna waste all that time porting you couldve been at work getting the overtime for another $200 for a better set ready to go.

------------------
67 coupe, 650dp and rpm intake on 5.0 with afr 165 heads, 4 speed, 4.11's.....best so far is [email protected] in 1/8 mile with 1.91 60ft. time.

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bluestreek
Gearhead

Posts: 607
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 07-26-2001 12:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for bluestreek   Click Here to Email bluestreek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Chips67,
I get all warm inside knowing that Ford 289 castings, that I hand worked, are on top of my block and I'm still able to go 0-80 mph in less than 9 seconds using basic 6000 rpm components and real street tires...But that's what I set out to do when I started my this project..
If what you want is 400Hp and all you intend to use is a stock 289-302 block, then by all means, do what ever it takes to get a good set of heads to build apon.. You're gonna need all the flow you can get and it's gonna need to pull to at least 6500-7000 rpms.. Make a plan and stick to it!!.. If you need more money, then you just have to scrounge until you get what it takes..

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JAAZZY
Gearhead

Posts: 666
From: Bay Area, CA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 07-26-2001 02:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JAAZZY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I don't have the tools or experience to port the heads myself. There are so many factors to consider more than just opening up the ports. You can really screw them up if you do it wrong. This is something that I'll leave to the experts, especially on a set of heads that cost $1K. Yes I did spend a lot on the porting but I think it has been worth it.

FYI, Ebay will refund your money up to $250 with a $25 deductible. I've only had good luck on Ebay but I only buy from people with a track record. Try it out maybe you can get half of your investment back.

quote:
Originally posted by jdsgallops:
For me a stock head is something you self port and don't turn over 6000 rpm, unless your Alex. Everybody says go aftermarket for better bang for the buck. My thinking is you may give up a little Hp but you gain knowledge to be used later. Like for when you want that really big Hp engine you can port those TW by yourself instead of paying some one. You may find TW's on e-bay for $500 but I bet you need to rebuild them which adds to the cost. I know I wouldn't trust them without a through going over. I got a set of C8OE's off e-bay only to get them to the shop and be told they had a crack welded up. Good thing I only have $50 invested in them(including shipping). They are now turning into a practice set one of which is getting cut in 1/2.

As far as Mikes car goes I am not sure on his MPH on the N/A runs. He usually ran it on a 200 shot with about 26* of total timing. This netted him a [email protected] with a 1.52 60ft on a "stock" suspension with a 4 speed. I have talked with Mike on numerous occasions and he is very knowledgeable. If he is reading this I am sure he will post the number.


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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 719
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 07-26-2001 03:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, the mustang is set up for nitrous... The compression ratio is a pump gas (and nitrous) friendly 10.5 to 1, and the cam has a lobe seperation of 110 degrees with 236/248 @ 0.050". Going for naturally aspirated numbers would produce a tighter lobe seperation, more duration, and a not quite as big of a split between the intake and exhaust. The cam is a solid street flat tappet with around 0.560" gross lift intake and exhaust. (Comp Cams 282S intake lobe, 294S exhaust) The clutch is also awfully tight, and the engine bogs off the line unless the nitrous is on... The harder it's launched, the better it runs. It would also get more gear naturally aspirated. I've only run a few times at the 1/4 mile off the bottle (all in the heat), but have managed a 11.91 @ 114. In the 1/8, it's run 7.48 @ 92. The car weighs 3300lbs with me in it.

The heads are ported within a micron of their lives. The bowls are huge. I've never had access to a flowbench, but they seem to work. JDSGallops has one of them right now. He's supposed to study it and get if flowed for me... He is free to post the results if he wants. The valves and seats have 8-9 years of abuse on them (and are a little sunken from that and a few valve jobs) and will probably affect the results a bit.

I did these back when the only thing out was the "AR" (Alan Root) head, that was later sold as the Motorsport J302... and was WAY expensive. If I was doing it over today, I'd DEFINITELY go with a set of aftermarkets. By the time money is spent on larger valves, machining for them, springs, retainers, hardware, and all the machining, you'll have around $500 in the stockers (if you use cheap stuff), and you'll still have a set of stock heads. I used good stuff, and had all good machine work done and had close to a grand in mine... AND did one hell of a lot of grinding!

JDS might give you a 3rd party non-biased rundown on them... They are pretty good for a set of stockers, but I'd never do it again!

I -did- do a quick job that resembled my heads (porting only) for a guy and charged $350. He was happy, but will have as much in them as a set of aftermarkets when he's done.

I guess it is cool to go pretty fast with stock heads, though...

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/motorcitymustang/cmml/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367

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chips67
Gearhead

Posts: 537
From: louisville, ky, usa
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 07-26-2001 05:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chips67   Click Here to Email chips67     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
EVERYBODY....listen to mike! mike knows what he's talking about and i agree 100%. the only way grinding on stock heads is worth it is if you have to run in a particular class. if you have you own tools, you know how, your best friend owns a machine shop, and you're stranded on a deserted island with nothing but heads, grinders, and a machine shop.....GO AHEAD! heads are too important to be the place to try and save a couple hundred bucks. thank God for tfs, afr, and canefield........and the rest. tell em mike!

------------------
67 coupe, 650dp and rpm intake on 5.0 with afr 165 heads, 4 speed, 4.11's.....best so far is [email protected] in 1/8 mile with 1.91 60ft. time.

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jdsgallops
Gearhead

Posts: 285
From: Green Bay, WI
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 07-27-2001 03:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jdsgallops   Click Here to Email jdsgallops     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by n2oMike:

JDS might give you a 3rd party non-biased rundown on them... They are pretty good for a set of stockers, but I'd never do it again!


Since I have your ok Mike I will. First a little background info. I got into high performance when I moved to FL when I was 19 and bought a 67 cougar as my mode of transportation. It was a 289 2v car that got me through culinary school. After returning home, Green Bay Wi area, upon graduation I drove the car for the summer and then tor it apart for a rebuild. That engine ended up in my current mustang instead of the cougar, and it was sold. I had a friend do some port work on the heads before the engine went together. It basicly was a bowl blend and removal of exhaust bumps. Nothing special. The engine dropped a valve after 7000mi. So I said bigger is better and bought a different cam and did some more porting on my own. I figured after reading a couple of magazine articles I could do this. So I went at it. This was the first set of oversize valve heads I did. I had fooled around with a set of late 70's heads and just made them look good previously. This performance of this engine ended up being [email protected] in my 83gt. Lackluster at best. I started blaming the port job. I figured I had ground too much out of the wrong places. WRONG after I recieved Mikes head(Thanks Mike) I ruled out that possibility. The only way for me to explain the difference is WOW. Mike has ground enough out of his heads that I can feel the weight difference between mine and his. I do have rockers on my heads yet but Mikes have studs everywhere, manifold and all. Having learned more about porting I took a dial caliper and spring caliper and started measuring openings on both heads. This is what I came up with.
Mike Me gt-40's
Intake height 2.00 2.00 1.86
" widith 1.14 1.13 1.17
" Bowl 1.68 1.445 1.45
exhaust height 1.325 1.435 1.5
" widith 1.2 1.09 1.165
" Bowl 1.42 1.12 1.38

The gt-40's I have lisited are the set that is currently on my car. They are bowl blended only to the best of my knowledge and were part of a used longblock I purchased at a price I could not refuse.
As you can see most of the numbers are very close. It really means nothing though. For expample our intake port widith is almost the same. Yet if you go in less than a 1/4 inch from the end they aren't even close. The difference is Mike took out the pushrod bulge. I did but not to the right extent. The other thing to notice is the bowl numbers. Theoreticaly you want the throat to be 85% of the valve diameter. I did not know this when I did mine. Mikes works out to the 85%. If you look at a stock head you will see a casting line running down the middle of the side wall of the port. Can't find it on Mikes head. It's gone.
Ok I think I have estabished that it is pretty hard to screw up the heads by taking out too much material. I didn't say impossible but diffucult.
Now to those saying they don't have the tools. For less than a $100 you can. I used a dremel on mine. Go to home depot when they are on sale and you can get them for under $75 dollars. I spent extra and got one with a flexshaft for about $85. When your done with your heads you have an invaluable tool for doing other odd jobs. It has come in quite handy a couple of times when working in tight spaces. When I told Mike this is what I used he told me I was nuts. Too small to do it quickly. Exactly can take too much off to fast just what the beginner needs. He pointed out to me that you can get an electric die grinder on ebay for about $25 dollars I think. This will take bigger bits and speed things along. I plan on sticking with my dremel. Dremel bits are about $5 a piece. Fairly cheap if you use them right(ie not on high speed!) Ok tools are out of the way.
Now Price. I have my recipt here from my heads. Here goes.
Mag and inspect $25
cut and install seats 80
(hardened seats for exhaust)
enlarge seats 40
head porting bowl work 42
(they just cut into the bowl a good amount)
Manely race flow valves 140
Crane springs etc.. 110.
Total $437
The only thing not listed is valve guides. Seems the shop knurled them and that was it. Explains why it burned so much oil. I am not sure what this cost's but it should keep the total around $500. Less if you use lower quality parts, like stock replacement valves. I don't know about you guys but I live in the cold midwest winter 5 months out of the year. If I can port a set of heads to flow as much or a little more than a new set of aluminum and be able to use $500 somewhere else I am going to do it. What else do I have to do all winter? Sure I give up a little bit of power but I also learned something. I also get the satisfation of doing the job myself, not just throwing money at parts and bolting them together. To me that is a big part of Hot Rodding.
In closing I just want to publicly say thanks to Mike. I met Mike on another board. I have done nothing but talk about his car since. How he is not sick of me I don't know. IMO Mike has just about the perfect car. If you haven't seen it check it out.
Here is a link to it. http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
If you go back to the main page you will also be able to find my car and the car that my "new" engine came out of.
Why do I like Mikes car so much? It is simple. Stock heads, small cam, small cubes, great looks and low et's. Can't ask for much more. Unfortuantely Mike found a crack in one of the heads and is puttng together a Twisted Wdege headed engine and redoing the rear suspension. I can't wait to see what it will do with this setup.

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SundanceKid
Gearhead

Posts: 650
From: UT
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 08-03-2001 05:34 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SundanceKid   Click Here to Email SundanceKid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Since we are on the topic of heads, I will say this much; I made a substantial amount of money in highschool porting heads under the guidence of my teacher. I have learned a few things;
"Porting is best left for those people who are artist."
"It most deffinately "is" in the details."
"Combination Combination, Combination."
"Site is only half of it, you must be able to have a feel for it too."
And the most important rule to me is. "Never sacrifice flow for velocity."

I've read hundreds of articles and books on porting, from Hog it out till you have a strait shot, Bernoulli's law of air flow dynamics, to importance of the short side radius, to induceing swirl within the port ect.

But if you don't have a knack for it or a CNC machine it realy is luck of the draw.

I have had very good luck with porting although not with a dremel! I would strongly recomend at least a carbid bit and a high speed drill at a minimum.

The fact still remains, you will spend almost the same amount of coin to end up in the same place for more effort with the 289/351 heads. You will get less efficient combustion chambers. An extra 40 lbs. over an aluminum counterpart. I "would think" the GT40 heads could be a medium between the two and with a little cleaning up would do nicely.
Then again, I am deffinately NOT an expert on Ford engines.
From my Chevy background as I see it;
Fords on paper would have a more ideal intake setup then a Chevy. However, due to all the development of Chevy intake manifolds I feel Chevy has a slight advantage, with exception to all out competition motors.
It is easier to get equal intake runner length and flow with the Chevy setup useing current production sand molds. Fords have a restricted exhaust. Even stupid Chevy guys know Ford exhaust ports suck! I feel that this side of the head is the most in need of improvement. If you don't belive me take a look at a 305 Chev to a 302 Ford or a 350 Chev to a 351 Ford flow specs on stock heads or even aftermarket ones.
Worst of all I think aftermaket Ford heads are limiting themselves to catter to current cam grinds that over cam the exhaust side! Wouldn't it make more sence to have the cam specs on the intake and exhaust be the same and make the head flow in proper proportion? Instead, cam companies add tons of exhaust duration and lift to compensate for poor exhaust flow. If the ports were proportionate, you could bring in the intake sooner for more cylinder filling and higher VE stats without affecting valve overlap.

Blah, Blah, Anyway, I'm getting off the subject here ain't I?

Any recomendations on aftermarket heads?

I am no longer considering a stroker engine due to a poor cost to benifit ratio, that is for the extra cost and effort a 302 could be made to make the same power.

Thanks for the help.

Oh, any thoughts on long vs. short rods?

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jkilroy
Gearhead

Posts: 1289
From: Austin, TX
Registered: Dec 99

posted 08-03-2001 09:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jkilroy   Click Here to Email jkilroy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Man that is one fine little notch back! Congrats to n2oMike for a job very well done, that is a very nice package.

Having spent many an hour with a grinder in my hand I must agree with jdsgallops on a couple of points.

If you are going to port heads it is best to learn on iron stockers. For a couple of reasons. They are cheap and they are iron. The fact that they are iron is a big one, you can easily screw up an aluminum head with a carbide bit and an air grinder. Also the aftermarket heads tend to be pretty good out of the box and unless you are decent with the grinder you will probably do more harm than good.

Also, it is very possible to make good power with factory parts. God knows, as Ford guys, we had to do it for years before the aftermarket stepped up and filled that gap. jdsgallops has a point in that you learn things by working with what you have.

If you can afford the aftermarket parts are they worth it? I have Edelbrock heads on my 390, and the price difference between them and a set of real medium risers that were well done was not that much. But then again, as any FE owner will tell you, the parts ain't cheap!

SundanceKid is correct, porting is best left to artists. It takes a steady hand and a good eye to get the stuff consistent from port to port. In the end its all about getting the air into the cylinder and there are as many theories as there are head porters out there. Its all in the combo.

Now about that long vs. short rod stuff, that is quite a discussion. Maybe somebody should start a new thread for that one.

------------------
Jay Kilroy
68' Fastback GT 390
"No such thing as a cam thats too big"

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ciscokid
Journeyman

Posts: 20
From: Cleveland, TN
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 08-03-2001 09:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ciscokid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I would love to see Alex comment on this thread. His 289 S.S. engine with massaged 1965 small valve factory heads, having port volumes limited by NHRA specs, makes well over 400 HP. Granted, the cam in an SS motor is going to be radical, and he probably revs to the moon, but even in a de-tuned state, it would have to be a powerful engine. What are the secrets to making the early 289 heads flow (or are they TOP secret??)

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jdsgallops
Gearhead

Posts: 285
From: Green Bay, WI
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 08-03-2001 10:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jdsgallops   Click Here to Email jdsgallops     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ciscokid, here is the little bit of info I got out of Alex about his heads. He stated that he has tried many different things on different heads, but can never get more than 200cfm, on the intake side, out of them. He is also reving into the 9000rpm range. That being said he is making over 2hp per cfm. That is a lot. You make a good point on the detuned part. How many times have you seen somebody post that they want more lowend torque out of there engine? What better part to start with than a factory head? A high velocity 200cfm port like Alex has would be killer on the street.

Sundance, I have cleaned up GT-40's on my car right now. They were done by a race shop in Jacksonville FL. Flow is reportedly 218/154. Those numbers are obtainable from a stock head with some knowledgeable head porting. You also have a much cheaper casting to start with, and wouldn't have pedestal mount rockers. The "P" casting also has the header fitment problem. There are some guys out there right now running pretty impressive times with ported P heads.

What head to use on a car boils down to how much time and effort you are willing to put into the tune and how fast you want to run. A stock head will get you into the low 12's, more than enough for most people. It is a cheap alternative if you do it yourself. The $400-500 you save, by doing the work yourself, can go to getting the right intake, cam and carb to make the combo work, correctly. Breaking the budget with a set of aluminum heads and sacrificing the correct combo will only hurt performance. I have seen more than one person post about being dissappointed with bolting on a set of edlebrock heads, only to see they were running the stock intake or a mismatch cam.

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 719
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 08-04-2001 02:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
289 heads have an intake volume of around 126cc. It's hard to kill kill velocity too much with these heads... Ported to the seams, mine measure around 155.

As for using ported factory heads... there is a place. If you want a serious engine, and are allowed to use aftermarket castings, by all means go for it. If the engine combo is fairly mild, and no major machining is required to the heads BREAK OUT THE GRINDER!! Hey, if you're doing a rebuild and aren't wanting to purchase aftermarket valves, double springs, guide plates, big studs and all, then grinding on the stock heads makes plenty of sense. It's free horsepower. If a serious engine is planned that calls for a lot of machine work on the heads, don't waste your time and money. Go aftermarket.

It hard to screw up the tiny exhaust ports in a SBF head. As long as you stay off the floor and don't dig into the short side radius too bad, you can't hurt them. What those exhausts need the most is a serious hogging out. I make the roof one straight shot from the exit to the top of the bowl... by completely grinding out the hump and valve guide boss. Do this, and try and center the valve stem in the port the best you can, and the exhaust will be vastly improved.

The intake takes a bit more finess... and are (by far) what I spent the most time on.

JB-Weld is a porter's best friend when mistakes occur on intake ports. It holds up well. I've used it several times. Exhausts are a problem since they operate at a much hotter temperature, and JB won't do. I've seen high temperature products advertised, but haven't had to use them yet.

I read everything I could get my hands on when it came time to port those 289 heads. I studied, and studied, and studied some more. Knowledge is power. The aftermarket was not an option, and I wanted to go fast. There is a good feeling about going fast with your own handiwork. When the engine was first built, there weren't very many small blocks running anywhere near that fast. The heads were the bottleneck in small block ford performance. Thanks go out to the aftermarket for opening that up. Fast fords are everywhere now!

Try this link for good tips on entry-level porting...

http://www.sa-motorsports.com/diyport.htm

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/motorcitymustang/cmml/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367

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chips67
Gearhead

Posts: 537
From: louisville, ky, usa
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 08-05-2001 12:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for chips67   Click Here to Email chips67     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
mike is everything i wanna be, minus the nitrous of course. mike, wanna holler at you and see what you think of something, is your e-mail working?

------------------
67 coupe, 650dp and rpm intake on 5.0 with afr 165 heads, 4 speed, 4.11's.....best so far is [email protected] in 1/8 mile with 1.91 60ft. time.

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 11493
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 08-07-2001 01:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A Jimmy "Carter" carburetor??????????? Oh brother!

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00 & '01
Fleet of FoMoCo products
Moneymaker Bio
US Class Nationals link

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SundanceKid
Gearhead

Posts: 650
From: UT
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 08-07-2001 08:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SundanceKid   Click Here to Email SundanceKid     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yeah, it's not my first choice...LOL! If I had my way I'd use a Rochester

[This message has been edited by SundanceKid (edited 08-07-2001).]

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66 Racer
Journeyman

Posts: 36
From: West Covina, California
Registered: Aug 2001

posted 08-07-2001 09:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 66 Racer   Click Here to Email 66 Racer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey,

Im planning a rebuild from ground up with complete new parts and as for now I would like to know what is the most HP that a 289 V8 can dish out. it would be a daily driver. I dont really know how my budget will be since i will buy parts through out the year, but lets say $4000 in parts alone not including machine work.

About that 91 octane thing, Im a little dissapointed about that, I roll up to a shell and thats all they had, 91. But honestly will one octane actually make that big of a differance? I have also noticed that my engine has responded better with 87 octane, would it just need tunning, i know its past due.

------------------
Under Construction 66 Coupe

289 V8 - 600cfm Holley - Tri-Y Headers - Flowmaster 2.5 dual exaust - Centerforce clutch

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68F100
Gearhead

Posts: 1324
From: Fort Madison, Iowa USA - United We Stand
Registered: Oct 99

posted 08-08-2001 02:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 68F100   Click Here to Email 68F100     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ask Alex how many horsies you can squeeze out of a 289

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JAAZZY
Gearhead

Posts: 666
From: Bay Area, CA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 08-08-2001 12:55 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JAAZZY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Since you said daily driver I'd say about 300rwhp with a hydraulic cam. If you are stroking it out a bit you could probably get it up to about 330rwhp and still be a daily driver. You would probably rev it up to close to 6600-6800 rpm so you would need a decent botttom end. Obviously you could get more out of it if it will be just a weekend warrior.


quote:
Originally posted by 66 Racer:
Hey,

Im planning a rebuild from ground up with complete new parts and as for now I would like to know what is the most HP that a 289 V8 can dish out. it would be a daily driver. I dont really know how my budget will be since i will buy parts through out the year, but lets say $4000 in parts alone not including machine work.

About that 91 octane thing, Im a little dissapointed about that, I roll up to a shell and thats all they had, 91. But honestly will one octane actually make that big of a differance? I have also noticed that my engine has responded better with 87 octane, would it just need tunning, i know its past due.


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chips67
Gearhead

Posts: 537
From: louisville, ky, usa
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 08-09-2001 03:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chips67   Click Here to Email chips67     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
best bet is follow a dyno proven recipe and follow it exactly. that way you spend the money only once....spending the money once is always cheaper than spending it twice. did you see the SIBLING RIVALRY article in dec. 2000 issue of MM&FF?? junkyard 5.0 block busting out well over 400hp naturally asprirated....hey thats me! right now im short on cam since i dont have what i need to flycut for that 282xe comp cam, but wait till next year. same engine made over 650 hp in car craft article with edelbrock nitrous kit and a nitrous cam. they didnt have to rev it to the moon either. these heads arent cheap, you can save 400 bucks buying tfs heads but then you wouldnt be sticking to the recipe. probably get canefield or tfs stage 2's for close to the price.

------------------
67 coupe, 650dp and rpm intake on 5.0 with afr 165 heads, 4 speed, 4.11's.....best so far is [email protected] in 1/8 mile with 1.91 60ft. time.

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 719
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 08-09-2001 04:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Maximum horsepower on the STREET is spelled n-i-t-r-o-u-s.

A 289 or 302 block will safely stand around 500-600 horsepower if all the machine work is spot-on and there are no flaws in the parts.

You can achieve this by building an extremely finicky "race" type engine with a super aggressive cam, compression, ect that needs to be buzzed to the moon to make power... or the cam, compression and rpm can be scaled back to a more reliable level and have the difference made up with a shot of nitrous.

My recipe is to build an engine with a good set of heads that has a pump gas compression ratio for no-hassle driving... then when racing time comes around, replace the pump gas with race fuel, arm the bottle, and run 10.60's at close to 130mph.

For a real, carbureted STREET car, it's the only way to go. An engine like this will last years before it needs a major service, where a naturally aspirated 10 second 289-302 will need freshened up at least once every year. Race engines also require race fuel at all times and are a pain in the a$$ to drive on any kind of regular basis.

Nitrous makes truly STREETABLE 10 second small blocks a reality.

Just -my- recipe, YMMV

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/motorcitymustang/cmml/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 3653
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 08-09-2001 05:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nitrous is "cheating"

SteveW

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 11493
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 08-09-2001 08:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
REAL MEN don't need nitrous!

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA National Record Holder '00 & '01
Fleet of FoMoCo products
Moneymaker Bio
US Class Nationals link

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chips67
Gearhead

Posts: 537
From: louisville, ky, usa
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 08-09-2001 10:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chips67   Click Here to Email chips67     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
im seriously on the fence here boys. the next logical step up in power with my car (read budget) is a 150 shot. but what about the guilt! i mean i probably could get this thing in the mid 7's (11's in the 1/4) with what i got and a good tune. i cant go turbo, i cant go blower without cuting the hood (so much for the restomod/sleeper)...nitrous is all thats left. but still you gotta fill the bottle, screw with the timing, fuel....when you bleed off everybody knows you got it! then they are no longer impressed that you run strong times without it. mike is right about making streetable small blocks that are decent to drive and run 10's. maybe i should quit trying to go faster every year. you could go big block but who's got that kinda money? i agree with all of you though and im impressed with each of your power combos. blowers, turbos, nitrous, KAOPECTATE....I LOVE THIS COUNTRY!

------------------
67 coupe, 650dp and rpm intake on 5.0 with afr 165 heads, 4 speed, 4.11's.....best so far is [email protected] in 1/8 mile with 1.91 60ft. time.

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jdsgallops
Gearhead

Posts: 285
From: Green Bay, WI
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 08-10-2001 01:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for jdsgallops   Click Here to Email jdsgallops     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
/me wants to see Mike and Alex runs heads up. To bad Mikes car is apart.

I have to agree with Mike. For a powerful street car you need a power adder to go fast and be reliable. A 9000 rpm engine like Alex has is not going to be fun on the street. If I had the money and time you better believe I would have a race only car. Then I could build all N/A HP and not have to worry about anything but the et and MPH. Unfortunately I wasn't born into a wealthy family nor made my first million yet. This means if I want to enjoy my car to the fullest I need to be able to drive it on the street. This means I give up things like open headers, slicks, and ultra high rpm. IMO Mikes car has got Sleeper written all over it. It looks like your normal restomod 66 that will run 13's. Then it pulls into the lane next to Alex and runs right with him. To me that is impressive. And I in no way want to take away from Alex the amount of time, energy and total outright knowledge it took him to get his car where it is, which is the top of it's game. Hmmmm I wonder what would happen if we put Mikes 4 speed in Alex's car?

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bluestreek
Gearhead

Posts: 607
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 08-10-2001 08:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bluestreek   Click Here to Email bluestreek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
qoute from Mike: "Nitrous makes truly STREETABLE 10 second small blocks a reality."

---------------------------------------------

It can also turn your engine into scrap metal in a hurry if you don't know what you're doing..

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JAAZZY
Gearhead

Posts: 666
From: Bay Area, CA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 08-10-2001 05:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JAAZZY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can do that without any outside help, thank you very much!

quote:
Originally posted by bluestreek:
qoute from Mike: "Nitrous makes truly STREETABLE 10 second small blocks a reality."


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Doc
Gearhead

Posts: 466
From: Redwood City, Ca. USA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 08-10-2001 10:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doc   Click Here to Email Doc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you don?t know what your doing is the operative phrase with nitrous! I was at Famoso (Bakersfield, Ca.) in 1958 when Don Garlits made his first run in California, just a few weeks before he came out he stated in a Hot Rod magazine interview he would never run a blower on one of his motors because they blow motors up! His dragster got trailered by Tony Waters square, non-aerodynamic, 23 T roadster, with a little blown Desoto motor, and the following week he had a blower on his car too! Blowers were young then and many motors got turned to scrap during the learning curve. If you don?t know what you?re doing you might blow anything up! Nitrous, blowers and exotic fuels don?t blow things up, people do! No matter how much power a naturally aspirated motor makes a shot of nitrous can make the same motor make more power, simple as that, but if the motor was making near the limit of it?s ability to contain the power it?ll blow up! Making power is easy, making an engine live while making big power is not. There?s no limit on a nitrous motor for how much you can dial in unlike a blower motor, where the size of the blower limits how much boost can be had, this leads to many meltdowns in the nitrous camp and the damage is blamed on the nitrous, not the tuner, not the guy that stayed with it till it was a lump of junk, not the poor choice of parts or controls, ?but the juice? and it?s a bum rap for a viable power adder. I know a guy that tells me to quit trying to hot rod my cars because ?you can?t improve on what the factory does? and he believes that! Yes nitrous motors get blown up as do turbo motors, blower motors, stock motors and modified motors, ya can?t blame the air because you didn?t compensate for it!

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steve'66
Gearhead

Posts: 3653
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 08-10-2001 11:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for steve'66   Click Here to Email steve'66     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Doc,

I agree 100%, nitrous is "a poor man's blower" It is just an oxide agent injected in liquid form. You have to make sure the correct amout of fuel is injected along with the "oxygen" or you will torch the pistons. The stuff works, but you better know what you're doing. All that said, I wouldn't run it on a bracket car. It's just too hard to have the same pressure in the bottle every pass and it's too expensive in a class where consistency is the name of the game. Not lowest et.

SteveW

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chips67
Gearhead

Posts: 537
From: louisville, ky, usa
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 08-10-2001 11:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chips67   Click Here to Email chips67     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
doc is absolutely right, thats probably why he's a doctor. its not that im afraid to run nitrous, the instructions are on the package for pete's sake! theres nothing to be scared of if you can read. its just being able to say "i drive it daily and run it on the motor because golf sucks" means something to me. besides it doesnt take a genious to figure if this thing runs 11's on the motor, it will run 10's with a shot of juice.....the only thing standing in your way is about $400 for a small plate kit....150 shot or less. for making cheap easy power you cant beat it. i also think its easy to make an 11 second naturally aspirated small block ford and have it as a comfortable daily driver.

------------------
67 coupe, 650dp and rpm intake on 5.0 with afr 165 heads, 4 speed, 4.11's.....best so far is [email protected] in 1/8 mile with 1.91 60ft. time.

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Doc
Gearhead

Posts: 466
From: Redwood City, Ca. USA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 08-10-2001 11:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doc   Click Here to Email Doc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
First I am not a doctor, the name Doc got bestowed on me from the movie Back To The Future, not because I'm smart but because my hair is always lookin wild . Second I disagree that nitrous is cheep horsepower. A good dependable system with the proper controls is very pricy, it's been the reason nitrous has a bad rep, if you just bolt a blower on a car with no other changes it'll run like a raped ape for a minute!

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 719
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 08-11-2001 06:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Doc:
There?s no limit on a nitrous motor for how much you can dial in

Well, there -is- a saturation point with the bottle, and it also follows the law of diminishing returns.

As far as the saturation point is concerned, the engine will only flow so much air, fuel, nitrous, etc through its ports. At a point, you can keep installing larger jets, but the car does not go much (if any) faster. Restrictive intakes, and especially exhaust systems don't allow a lot of street cars to make use of much more than 100-125hp worth.

Optimizing the engine for use with nitrous allows it to make much better use of it.

As for the law of diminishing returns... You get a whole lot more out of that first 100hp than the second. There will be a lot more of an et drop with that first 100hp than going from 100 to 200hp. That additional jetting gets harder and harder on the engine as well.

As for being an "easy" or "brainless" install that only requires reading the instruction on the box... FORGET IT!
They simply tell you how to put the kit on the car... Tuning is a whole nother' story! Fuel type, fuel pressure, bottle pressure, timing, plugs, etc. all have to be right for the power level.

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/motorcitymustang/cmml/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367

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chips67
Gearhead

Posts: 537
From: louisville, ky, usa
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 08-12-2001 12:08 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for chips67   Click Here to Email chips67     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
nitrous is way cheaper than any other power adder that comes close to equal the results period, so it is cheap hp. your fuel delivery will have to be able to handle the job....ok, still cheaper. i dont think tunning a nitrous system is difficult. with all thats been written and all the sources of information available the average shadetree could set one up. im not talking about pill till youre about to kill it but you can drop serious time off your et without being on the raged edge. even if it wound up a little fat and could use a couple degrees more timing. i think its silly to be afraid of using it because you think it takes a genious to put it together. a sound 5.0 motor will take a 150 shot like a champ, gotta love factory forged pistons. i agree with the diminishing returns statement, thats true with almost anything. the motor will probably start to use up power trying to push out the exaust volume unless you have a wicked exaust system and a nitrous cam doesnt hurt.

------------------
67 coupe, 650dp and rpm intake on 5.0 with afr 165 heads, 4 speed, 4.11's.....best so far is [email protected] in 1/8 mile with 1.91 60ft. time.

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Doc
Gearhead

Posts: 466
From: Redwood City, Ca. USA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 08-12-2001 02:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doc   Click Here to Email Doc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mike touches on the most important factor of nitrous tuning, the exhaust! As you increase the input of air (N20) the engine is in effect larger so needs a larger/freer flowing system, a limited system will hold cylinder pressure too high and the engine becomes a test bed for gasket and fastner tech. On a normal setup you can only load as much nitrous as the engine can ingest, if you go over that the nitrous will start coming out of the carb. Micky Thompson had a motor without a carb (capped intake) running on nitrous with varible flow for control, it just kept making horsepower as the flow increased till it kicked something. My statement of no limit is based on what I call making love with half of your tallwager, if it's there you'll use it . It is possible to run a nitrous engine on a good safe tuneup with absolute consistancy, we have a shelf of bracket racing trophys to prove it, however the amount of work weighing, changing and keeping the bottles right for that is huge. Mikes statement of diminishing return is true of all modifications, a small change to a stock motor can be a big help but the next change even though bigger may only help a bit, and so on.

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Big D
Gearhead

Posts: 2516
From: WELLS, NEVADA
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 08-13-2001 11:24 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Big D   Click Here to Email Big D     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This has got to be one of the most informative and lively conversations I have ever read at M&M...

You guys are something else...

Don

------------------
Previously Known As Don H McDonald
Brilliant Blue 1966 2+2
Soon To Be 302 w/5spd
https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/BigD.html

[This message has been edited by Big D (edited 08-13-2001).]

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jkilroy
Gearhead

Posts: 1289
From: Austin, TX
Registered: Dec 99

posted 08-13-2001 12:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jkilroy   Click Here to Email jkilroy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Maximum power for a streetable car is spelled T-U-R-B-O! While more expensive up front a shortblock built for N20 will work fine for a turbo. The power is much more controlled and easier on the engine. Plus, once you factor in the cost of filling that bottle every week or so, the turbo setup is not that much higher.

Just look at the Mustang racing groups and the street car heads up racers. The N20 guys are looking for a break, they don't want to race the turbo guys cause they are steady getting there asses handed to them on a plate.

------------------
Jay Kilroy
68' Fastback GT 390
"No such thing as a cam thats too big"

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Doc
Gearhead

Posts: 466
From: Redwood City, Ca. USA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 08-13-2001 03:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doc   Click Here to Email Doc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A turbo is a super power adder! But nitrous never comes in on a turn when you aren't ready for it ! Staging a turbo is difficult at best, a trans brake is a must with the turbo. But dollar for dollar a turbo should be considered, it'll fit under the hood, and it can be a sleeper!

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chips67
Gearhead

Posts: 537
From: louisville, ky, usa
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 08-13-2001 05:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chips67   Click Here to Email chips67     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
lets say a turbo setup was reasonably priced....none of them are....how do you hook it up on a carb? i have only seen this done a couple times, it wasnt cheap, and it wasnt worth the hassle. so unless youre injected, you're screwed. same thing with centrifigal blowers. if i had the fuel injected pieces i needed when i swapped in my junkyard '90 5.0 motor i wouldve had a turbo on it now....an injected turbo street '67 would not only rock but get a lot of praise for originality. its the ONLY reason i regret running a carb. would also like to say to any turbo buick freaks who might stummble upon this, have you ever raced a turbo 5 litre? what did his license plate say?

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67 coupe, 650dp and rpm intake on 5.0 with afr 165 heads, 4 speed, 4.11's.....best so far is [email protected] in 1/8 mile with 1.91 60ft. time.

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TomP
Gearhead

Posts: 3609
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99

posted 08-13-2001 07:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for TomP   Click Here to Email TomP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Turbo "setups" and "kits" and stroker "kits" etc... always can be done a cheaper way, craftiness and intuition can't be purchased tho, ya gotta earn it.

Myself i never spend big money on what i can't make myself, i don't buy a lotta whiz-bang doo-dads that don't help the end goal.

Factory heads can only be ported to a limit, thats where the aftermarket advantage lies. Not making full use of an expensive aluminum head is a waste of money...but lotsa folks out there do that,it keeps the economy moving,so it's a good thing ,no?

If ya gotta spend big money to get seats enlarged, milled for screw in studs,etc... aftermarket is best, but potential for more power is a better reason.

Turbos, blowers and nitrous all require a bit of tuning, most folks like to bolt on and go...err, bolt on and blow as the case may be. This explains why at the track you'll see a 5.0 with original everything run 13's, beside a guy with "R" heads and an "X trim" running slower.

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Doc
Gearhead

Posts: 466
From: Redwood City, Ca. USA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 08-13-2001 11:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doc   Click Here to Email Doc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Norm Chang has a 90 Mustang coupe with a carb and turbo that went 8.64 on a 10.5 tire at 347 inches, that is 1320 feet too! I'd say a carb setup is worth the effort .

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jdsgallops
Gearhead

Posts: 285
From: Green Bay, WI
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 08-14-2001 05:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jdsgallops   Click Here to Email jdsgallops     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ok guys I think we have enough theory how about going back to the original question(well sorta) and build the highest HP yet streetable engine you can for $2500. I am going to come up with something tonight and post it in a new thread OK?

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JAAZZY
Gearhead

Posts: 666
From: Bay Area, CA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 08-14-2001 05:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JAAZZY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Do you have any details or where I might be able to find them. I think designing the box for the carb would be one of the obstacles. I guess a sheet metal box wouldn't be too difficult. Pics would be great if there is a website.


quote:
Originally posted by Doc:
Norm Chang has a 90 Mustang coupe with a carb and turbo that went 8.64 on a 10.5 tire at 347 inches, that is 1320 feet too! I'd say a carb setup is worth the effort .

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 719
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 08-14-2001 06:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As stated earlier, nitrous is best for a CARBED STREET engine. Turbos and superchargers are nothing but a headache when combined with carburetors and normal street driving. A street engine (when not on the bottle) can be calibrated to drive with perfect streetability. Tuning a carb to work with a turbo or blower is always a compromise... It will work well wide open, or in a seriously detuned state. It's just nearly impossible to get blowers right without going to EFI. For those who are successful, I saulte you!

As for nitrous tuning, look at the following web site.

http://www.supermegajayman.com/car_stuff/nitrous_tuning.htm

Good Luck!

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/motorcitymustang/cmml/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367

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JAAZZY
Gearhead

Posts: 666
From: Bay Area, CA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 08-14-2001 07:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JAAZZY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was really just curious. Before I go with a power adder I will go to the late model style EFI. It is in the future but I plan far in advance. I'm thinking a single turbo car since it wouldn't be a daily driver. I'd like a turbo 351W(377) but it might end up being just a turbo 306, we'll see what happens. For now my N/A 347 is just fine, mainly just because my wife and my wallet say so.

quote:
Originally posted by n2oMike:
As stated earlier, nitrous is best for a CARBED STREET engine. Turbos and superchargers are nothing but a headache when combined with carburetors and normal street driving. A street engine (when not on the bottle) can be calibrated to drive with perfect streetability. Tuning a carb to work with a turbo or blower is always a compromise... It will work well wide open, or in a seriously detuned state. It's just nearly impossible to get blowers right without going to EFI. For those who are successful, I saulte you!

As for nitrous tuning, look at the following web site.

http://www.supermegajayman.com/car_stuff/nitrous_tuning.htm

Good Luck!


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Doc
Gearhead

Posts: 466
From: Redwood City, Ca. USA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 08-14-2001 07:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doc   Click Here to Email Doc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Gale Banks makes or carries just about anything turbo related, and Norman drives his 8 second Mustang on the street, not for the hop to the store but it does see street cruises and seems rather mild (and quiet)till it's on the turbo. I'll see if I can find an online source for Banks.

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JAAZZY
Gearhead

Posts: 666
From: Bay Area, CA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 08-14-2001 08:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JAAZZY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks
quote:
Originally posted by Doc:
Gale Banks makes or carries just about anything turbo related, and Norman drives his 8 second Mustang on the street, not for the hop to the store but it does see street cruises and seems rather mild (and quiet)till it's on the turbo. I'll see if I can find an online source for Banks.

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JAAZZY
Gearhead

Posts: 666
From: Bay Area, CA
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 08-14-2001 09:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JAAZZY     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think I found it but from the website it looks like they only make stuff for trucks. Is there another department that does car stuff?

http://www.bankspower.com/index.cfm


quote:
Originally posted by Doc:
Gale Banks makes or carries just about anything turbo related, and Norman drives his 8 second Mustang on the street, not for the hop to the store but it does see street cruises and seems rather mild (and quiet)till it's on the turbo. I'll see if I can find an online source for Banks.

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chips67
Gearhead

Posts: 537
From: louisville, ky, usa
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 08-14-2001 09:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for chips67   Click Here to Email chips67     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i give up. with the price you pay for power adders other than n2o you shouldnt have to expect any compromises, but such is life. its true that a street engine is great combination with a bottle for the strip, but evrybody knows you got it. soon as you line up and bleed it off the jig is up. then you get all the people saying that its cheating. i think im done with my car. get this lined out and go finish my other project and then retire.

------------------
67 coupe, 650dp and rpm intake on 5.0 with afr 165 heads, 4 speed, 4.11's.....best so far is [email protected] in 1/8 mile with 1.91 60ft. time.

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Doc
Gearhead

Posts: 466
From: Redwood City, Ca. USA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 08-14-2001 11:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doc   Click Here to Email Doc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yeah Jazzy I found his site and it's not even close to giving us any info, it seems that website design takes priority over product info many times!
Chip what I've been trying to say is none of the power adders need to be a compromise, they do need to be well worked out, a bottle does not need to shot into the air for all to see and if you run better than the next car they'll call you a cheater even if they have it all and you only have a motor. Just build your car your way and damn what others say !!!

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