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Author
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Topic: Good God, HEADER BOLTS
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Stewart
Moderator Posts: 6464
From: Monterey, CA Mustangsandmore Member #437
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 08-19-2001 04:04 AM
   
 Ok you wrench gods, what secrets do you have regarding header bolts? I'm swapping out the factory headers on the 5.0 for JBA shorty, unequel length headers. My question is, how in the he** do you tighten the damn bolts down, much less torque them with a torque wrench, when a socket won't fit because of clearance, and there is no room to use a wrench? ARGHGHGHGHGHGH! Enough for tonight. Gonna get cleaned up and read a book or something. Please guys, any help would be appreciated. Stewart ------------------
Got Milk? :-)~~ 
If you go fishing, bring a fishnet  you might catch a hummingbird 1990 Platinum GT: 25th Year Anniversary Edition
- Some mods, but not enough!
1996 Blue Crown Vic
- Suspension and exhaust mods, but nothing else...YET!
1998 solid Paint Quarter Horse: One Hot Diamond
- He's green, but Renee's training him!
M&M Member #437
Blue Oval Believer, thru and true. [This message has been edited by Stewart (edited 08-19-2001).]
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wythors
Gearhead Posts: 2353
From: La Conner WA HOW 'BOUT THOSE MARINERS?!?!?
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted 08-19-2001 10:05 AM
To begin with, you can forget about torquing them down unless you plan to pull the engine. Tell me what size bolts you're using and, if they're the same size I used, I'll UPS down my thinwall deep socket and my two special wrenches. Just send me your street address.I'm serious. ------------------
Dave 1993 5.0 LX convertible.
Part-time driver of one badass black 96 Cobra.
MCA Member #47838
M&M Member #666
Life is GOOD!
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Dave Gibson
Moderator Posts: 3955
From: Pensacola, Florida, USA M&M#166 MCA#47921
Registered: Aug 99
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posted 08-19-2001 10:58 AM
Stewart,
Try using a crows foot. Great for getting into tight spots.Dave & Terri ------------------
Poison Ivy
'65 Fastback Modified 289 4V, C-4 w/shift kit, dual exhaust, styled steal wheels, 2.80:1 limited slip rear, rally pac, A/C
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 15784
From: Saco, Maine MCA # 47773
Registered: May 99
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posted 08-19-2001 11:45 AM
Welcome to hot rodding. I can usually get them all with an open end wrench, but it sometimes takes a while!------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC
Ford. The closer you look, the better WE look!
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Dave_C
Gearhead Posts: 279
From: Gadsden, Al
Registered: Aug 99
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posted 08-19-2001 12:14 PM
I used to have a terrible time getting the bolts in and out of the headers in my 69. It has Winsdor Sr heads and I have 1 3/4" equal length long tubes.The best $35 I have spent on it was to buy a set of Stage 8 locking bolts. They have a regular hex head with their locking E-clip and retainer system. They can't loosen up with the locks in place. They best part is that the head also has a hole in the center for an allen wrench. Makes installing and getting them tight a breeze. It used to be a 2.5 hr job (serious). Now I can do all 16 bolts in 15 minutes. I bought one of those sokets that has a small allen wrench built into it. Fits a 1/4 ratchet. I stick the bolt on the end of it to start it and then tighten it all the way. The allen wrench is skinny and long enough to reach down beside the tube to get to the bolt. Try some, you'll love em. Later, David Cole
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Stewart
Moderator Posts: 6464
From: Monterey, CA Mustangsandmore Member #437
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 08-19-2001 03:21 PM
Thanks guys.There's actually only two of the bolts I'm having trouble with. the others I was able to get with my socket and an open end wrench. Dave (wythors) thanks for the offer! I really appreciate your generosity! But I think I'm gonna go with the Stage 8's that Dave_C used, or something similar. It'll be more helpful in the long run because next year I'll be pulling the heads and intake and swapping in some Edelbrock stuff. Thanks for the help, guys. Stewart
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Fastymz
Journeyman Posts: 80
From: Reno Nv
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 08-19-2001 03:44 PM
Talk about a pain in the a--.My 65 with a 351w in it has to be one of the worst.I tried the stage 8 I could not get them to fit.The headman header flanges got in the way.Alost all of the bolts have to be tighten with a mini wrench about a 1/4 turn at time.I used the ARP they have small 3/8 head.Ron------------------
65 coupe with a stock 1969 351w,RPM intake,carter625cfm,shorty hedmen hedders,black magic electric fan,stock C4,peg leg 8" 2:80,Boss 429 hood scoop.
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 15784
From: Saco, Maine MCA # 47773
Registered: May 99
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posted 08-19-2001 04:14 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Fastymz:
My 65 with a 351w in it has to be one of the worst.
I bet it is. I can't believe the difference in room between the 351C in my '70 compared to the 351C in my '72! ------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC
Ford. The closer you look, the better WE look!
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 1163
From: a bad scene from "children of the corn"
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 08-19-2001 05:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by SteveLaRiviere:
I bet it is. I can't believe the difference in room between the 351C in my '70 compared to the 351C in my '72!
Try putting headers on a 76 granada that some one got the bright idea of putting a 4v cleveland into.
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 15784
From: Saco, Maine MCA # 47773
Registered: May 99
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posted 08-19-2001 05:26 PM
quote:
Originally posted by kid vishus:
Try putting headers on a 76 granada that some one got the bright idea of putting a 4v cleveland into.
No thanks!  To think, I wanted to find an R code Mach 1! ------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC
Ford. The closer you look, the better WE look!
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Fastymz
Journeyman Posts: 80
From: Reno Nv
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 08-19-2001 06:13 PM
Sounds like a hot granada love to see that run.------------------
65 coupe with a stock 1969 351w,RPM intake,carter625cfm,shorty hedmen hedders,black magic electric fan,stock C4,peg leg 8" 2:80,Boss 429 hood scoop.
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Stewart
Moderator Posts: 6464
From: Monterey, CA Mustangsandmore Member #437
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 08-19-2001 07:09 PM
quote:
Originally posted by SteveLaRiviere:
No thanks! To think, I wanted to find an R code Mach 1!
Thanks for the warning, Steve!  Stewart
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kcode
Gearhead Posts: 1549
From: alvaton,ky,usa Suburb of Bowling Green, M&M #79, MCA #29208
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 08-19-2001 10:08 PM
Go to Sears and get a 3/8 combination wrench. Open and boxed end, make sure it is the long one so you can get leverage and go a 1/4 turn at a time Bruised and scraped knuckles.
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Harrys'65
Gearhead Posts: 245
From: Saint Paul, MN
Registered: Sep 99
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posted 08-19-2001 10:12 PM
If you decide to go with a box/open wrench, get a "GearWrench". The box end ratchets, and will ratchet with very little movement. THey are nice tools, I love them.------------------
Harry Straub
'65 Mustang Coupe
http://www.harrystraub.com/resto.html
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Stewart
Moderator Posts: 6464
From: Monterey, CA Mustangsandmore Member #437
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 08-20-2001 03:40 AM
Thanks Mike, but there are a couple bolts that the open end wrench won't work on, due to the primary tube being in the way, or other items in the engine compartment causing problems. I'm just going to have to replace the 9/16 header bolts with ones that have the allen hex in the heads.Harry, I have a set of ratchet wrenches. But they need more room/space around the bolt head to operate than a socket does. Thanks again, guys. I'm gonna have to run into Salinas and hope that the place I get my "hard to find" nuts and bolts has grade 8 header bolts that are slotted for the hex wrench. If not, I'll pop for the extra money to get Stage 8's. Stewart
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Toronado3800
Journeyman Posts: 41
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 08-20-2001 04:02 AM
Now don't forget the trickiest part, keeping from having to pull the header off again and again to change gaskets Nothing like loosening the #1 all the way, the #7 and #5 a quarter, and trying to back them out even with #2 so you don't have to worry about the weight of the exhaust hangint on the rest the tubes are blocking from a quick exit.
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JAAZZY
Gearhead Posts: 375
From: Bay Area, CA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 08-20-2001 12:14 PM
I have full length JBA headers(not made anymore) in my 65 with raised port heads. Getting my headers to in the car at all the first time took me about 20 hours of labor. I had to do many small modifications but I'll just tell you what I did for the headers bolts.To start with all of the header bolts have small heads, I believe 3/8. They came with the headers. Anyway, I decided to fix the problem permanently. You take a torch to get the pipe near difficult to reach bolts hot enough to make the metal a little soft. Then take a metal rod of any kind with a smooth blunt end and a hammer and indent the headers just a bit so you have clearance to tighten the bolts. If you do it carefully the curves will be smooth and hardly visible. I needed to do this with about 6 of the holes. Before this it was difficult to even get the bolts into some of the holes. Now if the header needs to come out it's not such a nightmare to get it back in.
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Stewart
Moderator Posts: 6464
From: Monterey, CA Mustangsandmore Member #437
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 08-20-2001 02:24 PM
quote:
Originally posted by JAAZZY:
To start with all of the header bolts have small heads, I believe 3/8.
Hmmm, must be the difference between the classics and the Fox Mustangs. My header bolt size is 9/16. Thanks for the tip, The factory headers were like that, small curves in the primary's. But I couldn't do that even if I wanted too. My shorty's are powdercoated. Stewart
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Greenstang
Gearhead Posts: 421
From: its all a fog..
Registered: May 2001
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posted 08-20-2001 06:04 PM
My headers were *fun* the first time, and I have plenty of room...
the next time I had them off, I tapped the holes to clean up the threads, and installed studs where I could ( about 4 holes per heads) it makes header removal a 10 minute job...
I am dreading putting the headers on the cleveland if I ever finish it...------------------
Marcus
Audi R8-
The new definition of "The Unfair Advantage."
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JAAZZY
Gearhead Posts: 375
From: Bay Area, CA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 08-20-2001 06:09 PM
I don't think I could get them on if I had studs. There is very little room in my 65. To get the drivers side off I even need to pull the spark plugs! I like the idea though. quote:
Originally posted by Greenstang:
My headers were *fun* the first time, and I have plenty of room...
the next time I had them off, I tapped the holes to clean up the threads, and installed studs where I could ( about 4 holes per heads) it makes header removal a 10 minute job...
I am dreading putting the headers on the cleveland if I ever finish it...
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wythors
Gearhead Posts: 2353
From: La Conner WA HOW 'BOUT THOSE MARINERS?!?!?
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted 08-20-2001 06:32 PM
Stewwie, do you know the difference between "Stage 8" and "grade 8"? Stage 8's are a special locking bolt and grade 8 is an extra hard bolt for heavy duty use. There's no advantage to be gained by using grade 8 bolts here.The bolts that came with my FRPP headers were 3/8"-head 12-point tapered shank bolts. The smaller head makes them MUCH easier to deal with than the factory stuff. I've got a "half-moon" wrench, an off-set head wrench and an extra deep socket. I can reach any bolt on any cylinder without a problem. If you want to borrow them my friend, give me a yell. ------------------
Dave 1993 5.0 LX convertible.
Part-time driver of one badass black 96 Cobra.
MCA Member #47838
M&M Member #666
Life is GOOD!
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 15784
From: Saco, Maine MCA # 47773
Registered: May 99
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posted 08-20-2001 07:47 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Stewart:
Hmmm, must be the difference between the classics and the Fox Mustangs. My header bolt size is 9/16.Thanks for the tip, The factory headers were like that, small curves in the primary's. But I couldn't do that even if I wanted too. My shorty's are powdercoated. Stewart
Stewart, are you using header bolts?
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Stewart
Moderator Posts: 6464
From: Monterey, CA Mustangsandmore Member #437
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 08-21-2001 02:54 AM
quote:
Originally posted by wythors:
Stewwie, do you know the difference between "Stage 8" and "grade 8"?
Yeah, I know the Stage 8's are special locking bolts, and I know the Grade 8's are hardened. However, I did think the Stage 8's were also Grade 8's. As for the advantage, I know standard Grade 5 bolts will suffice, but I also know that
I have a tendency to round bolts off, and Grade 8's will hold up a wee bit better for me. I picked up some Grade 8 allen head bolts today that will work perfectly. They also match the headers better because they are a dark charcoal color, which blends in perfectly with the powdercoating on the headers. Thanks again for the offer on your tools, Dave! That's extremely generous! Stewart
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Stewart
Moderator Posts: 6464
From: Monterey, CA Mustangsandmore Member #437
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 08-21-2001 02:56 AM
quote:
Originally posted by SteveLaRiviere:
Stewart, are you using header bolts?
Yeah, I am Steve. Not only are these the exact ones recommended by the JBA website tech/install page, but they're exactly like the factory header bolts I'm taking out. Well, except for the color!  Stewart
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fordfan
Gearhead Posts: 2262
From: Walla Walla, Wa, USA
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 08-22-2001 04:53 PM
Jeez, On my Chevy Pickup I had a problem trying to keep the headers in the Engine compartment.... They kept falling through to the ground . All the bolts are accessable to  Seriously, The allen head bolts would work for you ------------------
*WARNING: RATED MA for Mature Audiences only!* Joseph J Shaffer IV
Walla Walla, WA
MustangsandMore Member# 37
'68 Mustang Coupe, 2.79 gears.
'64 Mercury Comet, 2.80 gears
'62 Ford Falcon 2dr Wagon
'43 Dodge WC-53,FACTORY 5.83 gears i belive!
'41 Chevy Pickup, No rear, no gear!
'70 Chevy Pickup
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jkilroy
Gearhead Posts: 1213
From: Austin, TX
Registered: Dec 99
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posted 08-22-2001 05:29 PM
Try a 68 with a FE in it!! I don't even change my own plugs, much less do I have headers. (Though I am sure I have 50+ hp waiting for me with a set of headers and new exhaust)I wait until some local shop advertises a special on tune ups. I call and ask them to quote me a price on my car, and if they ask what kind of car I say Mustang, they never ask what year, with a V8. Then I bring it up to them and when I pick it up I make a mental note to never go back to that place again! ------------------
Jay Kilroy
68' Fastback GT 390
"No such thing as a cam thats too big"
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 15784
From: Saco, Maine MCA # 47773
Registered: May 99
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posted 08-22-2001 07:25 PM
quote:
Originally posted by jkilroy:
I wait until some local shop advertises a special on tune ups. I call and ask them to quote me a price on my car, and if they ask what kind of car I say Mustang, they never ask what year, with a V8. Then I bring it up to them and when I pick it up I make a mental note to never go back to that place again!
Knowing the way garages work, you must get at least five new plugs every time. ------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC
Ford. The closer you look, the better WE look!
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 15784
From: Saco, Maine MCA # 47773
Registered: May 99
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posted 08-22-2001 07:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Stewart:
Yeah, I am Steve. Not only are these the exact ones recommended by the JBA website tech/install page, but they're exactly like the factory header bolts I'm taking out. Well, except for the color! Stewart
Then what do you mean by "My header bolt size is 9/16."? Are you sawing you are using 3/8" bolts with 9/16" heads, or that they're 9/16" long?
------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC
Ford. The closer you look, the better WE look!
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Toronado3800
Journeyman Posts: 41
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 08-23-2001 12:21 AM
Maybe you'll get lucky and it'll be easier to change your starter with the headers on. My last set would hold the starter against the oil pan while I wired up the solenoid, of course that was a chevy type thing to have to do.
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Stewart
Moderator Posts: 6464
From: Monterey, CA Mustangsandmore Member #437
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 08-23-2001 02:22 AM
quote:
Originally posted by SteveLaRiviere:
Then what do you mean by "My header bolt size is 9/16."? Are you sawing you are using 3/8" bolts with 9/16" heads, or that they're 9/16" long?
DOH! Did I use some terms incorrectly? If I did, sorry 'bout that! The bolt is 3/8 X 1" with a 9/16 head. Do they make a 3/8 X 1" bolt with a smaller head than 9/16? And if so, how would the smaller rim of the bolt head be sufficient to hold the headers to the cylinder heads? I mean, if the head of the bolt is the same width as the threads (stem), then there wouldn't be any rim for the head to hold the headers on with, right? Sorry for being such a novice with all these questions guys...but y'all are the best to learn from! Stewart
[This message has been edited by Stewart (edited 08-23-2001).]
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wythors
Gearhead Posts: 2353
From: La Conner WA HOW 'BOUT THOSE MARINERS?!?!?
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted 08-23-2001 11:09 AM
The header bolts that came with mine have a 3/8" 12-point head with a flange. The smaller head size makes it much easier to get a grip on the head than a 9/16" head will allow.
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JAAZZY
Gearhead Posts: 375
From: Bay Area, CA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 08-23-2001 03:06 PM
Exactly... Mine have a 3/8" head but are designed for headers with a flange welded to the bottom like a washer. The best of both worlds. You can tighten them down easily and they still hold the flange in place. You should be able to find them at a good automotive shop. I think that both Summit and Jegs should have what you need. Here is what they look like.
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 1163
From: a bad scene from "children of the corn"
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 08-23-2001 03:48 PM
All the header bolts I have ever had, have had a 7/16 head on them. There's no way a 9/16 would fit with mny super comps I have now.
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wythors
Gearhead Posts: 2353
From: La Conner WA HOW 'BOUT THOSE MARINERS?!?!?
Registered: Sep 2000
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posted 08-23-2001 04:31 PM
Rob, your "from" keeps getting stranger and stranger!
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JAAZZY
Gearhead Posts: 375
From: Bay Area, CA
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 08-23-2001 04:38 PM
Maybe you are right, mine are probably 7/16. I don't really ever bother to look because I just pick up the same wrench everytime. BTW, I see that Jegs has the ones with the allen wrench also. quote:
Originally posted by kid vishus:
All the header bolts I have ever had, have had a 7/16 head on them. There's no way a 9/16 would fit with mny super comps I have now.
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 15784
From: Saco, Maine MCA # 47773
Registered: May 99
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posted 08-23-2001 08:09 PM
That's your problem! You need header bolts, like in Jazzy's picture.------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC
Ford. The closer you look, the better WE look!
IP: Logged |
kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 1163
From: a bad scene from "children of the corn"
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 08-23-2001 09:07 PM
quote:
Originally posted by wythors:
Rob, your "from" keeps getting stranger and stranger!
It's been that way for awhile now.
Had to do something, the cubs proved they really still are the cubs and started to bomb out.
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Stewart
Moderator Posts: 6464
From: Monterey, CA Mustangsandmore Member #437
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 08-23-2001 10:44 PM
Damn, thanks guys. I wish I hadda known how those bolts were constructed before. Alex told me to get the ones with the 3/8 head on them, but when I went to the industrial supply store and told them what I needed, they said the bolt with the 3/8 sized head wouldn't work because they wouldn't be 3/8 X 1".Had I know how these bolts were, it would have been easy for me to explain what I needed. Oh well...no harm done. The allen head socket cap screws I got work great and they look fantastic. They really match my headers well. Thanks again. Stewart [This message has been edited by Stewart (edited 08-27-2001).]
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