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Author Topic:   Powerstroke vs V-10
Dave_C
Gearhead

Posts: 968
From: Gadsden, Al
Registered: Aug 99

posted 11-02-2001 08:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave_C   Click Here to Email Dave_C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi All,

Assuming that it all comes through, I just sold my 92 F-150 302/AOD. Was a great truck, bought it new, but at 207K miles it's time to move on.

This week I will be looking for a new truck. Need some opinions on the Powerstroke diesel vs the V-10 gas engine.

I intend to get a F-250 SD ext cab 4X4. With financial considerations in place I can afford either a new V-10 gas burner or a slightly used diesel. Something like a '00-'01 model in the 35K mile range. The diesel is a $4K + option when new.

The truck will see moderate towing duty for my drag car and open trailer + tools, fuel (~5000 lbs) , but will be mainly a daily/weekend driver. I have a Honda econobox that is used for my daily 120 mile round trip commute. The truck will be used for the trip in inclement weather plus around town duty.

Pluses and minus for either?

Mileage?

Reliability, service issues?

Later,

David Cole

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Stewart
Gearhead

Posts: 9743
From: Monterey, CA Mustangsandmore Member #437
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 11-02-2001 09:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Stewart   Click Here to Email Stewart     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, I'm sure there are others out there with a more informed opinion than me, but since you asked!

If it were me, and I were buying for the exact same reasons, I'd get the Powerstroke diesel for two main reasons.

1) Ford doesn't give you a 100K mile powertrain warrantee on the diesel for nothing. They last.

2) The V10 consumes more gas than the diesel. This is based upon info from owners of both the V10's and diesels.

Other considerations of course include the torque of the diesel.

Stewart

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67stang
Gearhead

Posts: 2356
From: Panama City, FL
Registered: Jun 99

posted 11-02-2001 11:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 67stang   Click Here to Email 67stang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Get the diesal.

The V10 is nice, but get the diesal. Better on fuel consumption, better for towing.

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MLariviere
Moderator

Posts: 3984
From: Biddeford,Me.USA
Registered: May 99

posted 11-03-2001 10:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MLariviere   Click Here to Email MLariviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm on the other side of the fence. I'd go gas. Cheaper initial investment. Lower maintainence costs,less noise,easier cold starts. The fuel is alot cheaper,at least around here. Last winter diesel fuel was almost $3.00/gal around here,while gasoline was $1.70.

Some of my friends had Fords with diesels,and they had real tough times getting their warranty claims through. One blew a torque convertor: it wasn't covered.

You have to keep the coolant treated,or cavitation can result. Also not covered under warranty.

Even regular maintainence is costly. You can kiss the $15 oil change good bye.

I've watched these guys go into these diesel trucks. They went in,were proud for a while,and then the costs came. Needless to say,they all went back to gas. A V10 will more than do what you want,quieter,cleaner,and cheaper in the long run. All you have to pay for is gas!

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Rory McNeil
Gearhead

Posts: 1542
From: Surrey, B.C. Canada
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 11-04-2001 04:01 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Rory McNeil   Click Here to Email Rory McNeil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I`m with Mike. A buddy of mine has had 3 new Ford diesel trucks over the years, 88,94, & a 99, all F350 dualies. Although he had no major troubles with the first 2 trucks, the 99`s engine bought the farm (cooling system problem, I recall) & Ford wouldn`t warrenty it. This guy drives his own full sized dump trucks for a living, & knows all about diesel maintenance. He got p1ssed off, & bought a new F350 with the V10, & he just loves it. (he has a heavy enclosed race car trailer) He said he won`t buy another diesel in a light truck again. I also know several other racers who tow with 1 ton V10`s (Fords & Dodge,). all are very happy with them. Of course you don`t get the lovely smell & noise of a diesel , but hey, you can`t have everything.

------------------
78 Fairmont 428 4 speed [email protected]
80 Fairmont 302 5 speed [email protected]
85 Mustang NHRA Stocker under construction, 302 5 speed

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Stewart
Gearhead

Posts: 9743
From: Monterey, CA Mustangsandmore Member #437
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 11-04-2001 04:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Stewart   Click Here to Email Stewart     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hmmm, how is the Ford getting out of fixing these probs which should be covered under warrantee?

Stewart

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 43151
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 11-04-2001 08:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
By calling it 'Owner abuse'

A while ago I came across a web site of pissed off Ford diesel owners. They were madder than hornets in there! Most of them had engines fail due to cylinder wall cavitation. Supposedly the stresses in the combustion of a diesel are able to cause fatigue damage to cylinder walls. You are supposed to use a additive in the coolant to neutralize this process. At last report, Ford still isn't telling owners about this, the engines fail, and Ford claims they 'abused them.'

No oil burners for me, either, thanks!

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC
My Photo Page
My goal is to stop being such a pessimist... but that probably won't happen...

[This message has been edited by SteveLaRiviere (edited 11-04-2001).]

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 43151
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 11-04-2001 08:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here's some stuff to read:

http://www.interstat.net/ford/guestbook/guest.temp

quote:
Originally posted by SteveLaRiviere:
Here's an excellent explaination of cavitation, from www.Ford-Diesel.com
http://www.ford-diesel.com/contents/getitems.php3?Cavitation%20Analysis

*********************************************

[b] Cavitation Analysis

Source:

Michael


"A very frequent question I receive via e-mail and on the Chat Board is about cavitation in the Ford diesels. It's a well-known problem, but doesn't seem to be as common as some people think. I myself have never personally seen one with the problem. Cavitation is not an inherent problem with Ford diesels, almost all diesel engines are subject to it without proper maintenance. The problem with Ford is that they neglected to put those maintenance procedures in their owner's manuals. They remedied this with the new Power Strokes.

What is cavitation? One of our diesel experts offered this explanation:

Cavitation is a localized low pressure zone. This low pressure zone is caused by the flexing of the cylinder wall due to the high compression in a diesel engine vs. gasoline engine (which is why gasoline engines don't typically get this failure mode). Basically what happens is the cylinder wall quickly expands due to compression, then returns to the orginal geometry. This fast cylinder wall movement causes a low pressure zone to be created at the cylinder wall. When this pressure zone drops below the vapor pressure point (temperature, coolant ratio, and additive dependant) a vapor bubble is formed. When this low pressure zone returns to a high pressure zone, the vapor bubble collapses, causing an implosion, or pitting phenomena on the cylinder wall (like hitting the surface with a microscopic ball peen hammer). If left unchecked, it will eventually eat all the way through the cylinder wall.

The next question is probably What do I do to prevent cavitation? The answer is simple, add the appropriate coolant additive at 15,000 mile intervals and perform a complete coolant change every 30,000. By following these procedures, you'll never have a coolant-related failure. The additives include Ford's FW-16 (replacement for the older FW-15), Fleetguard's DCA4, Penray's Pencool, and others. A new alternative is to use Cat and Fleetguard's new extended life coolant. It is impregnated with the proper additive and mixed to the proper antifreeze/water combination at the factory. You simply pour it in.

If you're purchasing a used Ford diesel, you'll want to make sure it doesn't have the cavitation problem. There are several ways to do this. The most reliable (and complex) can be found in the General Tips section of this site called Cavitation Diagnosis. Unfortunately, most sellers won't allow you to go to those lengths on their truck!

All of the following information comes from one of our diesel coolant experts, Michael.

Most likely the easiest test is a a combination of two. The first being a coolant
system pressure test. This is very simple as instead of applying pressure to each
cylinder, it is applied to the entire cooling system. This test is usually done to about 25-30 psi and will show a leakdown of any coolant joint, or a through hole in a cylinder. Test kits are available from any auto parts store. One thing to keep in mind though, a leakdown will not necessarily mean a back block, it may be a bad pump, hose joint, etc. The second test is to measure the pH of the coolant. As exhaust gases are passed into the coolant, it will become acidic. This will also indicate early head gasket failure (although in diesels, there is a permissible blowby which is acceptable due to the high compression ratio).

Another check is at initial start up. Usually this is done in conjunction with test #1
(pressurize the cooling system). As on cold start up, with a pressurized cooling system, cylinder leakage should show up as vapor or excessive water from the tailpipe, this is due to no catalyst function on a cold start. Also check the oil for signs of any water/coolant present. As on shutdown, a cylinder hole will continue to flow into the cylinder, past the rings, and into the crankcase.

As for why some show a problem at 100k and others go 250k without any maintenance, this is mostly due to duty cycle of the truck. Heavy duty usage and high rpm/boost conditions will increase the in-cylinder pressures dramatically. For instance, you may increase boost from the turbo by 5 psi (or install a hyper chip for more fuel under accelleration) and it doesn't seem like that much a difference at a glance, after all, how much can an extra 5 psi hurt this thing right? Well 5 psi more in boost can easily increase in-cylinder pressures by as much as 1500 psi when detonating charge is starting. This increase in pressure increases the frequency and amplitude of the cylinder wall flexing which translates to more cylinder cavitation, and then premature failure.

The best advice is never buy a truck that you don't know what the maintenance has been. If the guy has receipts for FW-15 over time, chances are he used it. Look at the cooling system very careful. If the cap looks as if it has been on and off a lot and/or has residual coolant around the bottle (or overflow bottle), then the owner has been adding coolant for a while to the truck. Look at the exhaust for rust on the i.d. of the pipe. These diesels run like pigs (6.9's and 7.3's) from the injection system. They coat the pipes with soot and diese fuel. If the pipe shows rust, then there is a lot of moisture being pushed through it, most likely
coolant."

[/B]


------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
'97 Probe GTS 2.5L DOHC
My Photo Page
My goal is to stop being such a pessimist... but that probably won't happen...

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Dave_C
Gearhead

Posts: 968
From: Gadsden, Al
Registered: Aug 99

posted 11-04-2001 08:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave_C   Click Here to Email Dave_C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've been doing a little research.

The cooling system problems are caused by not having enough SCA (Supplemental Cooling Additive). The SCA is described in the owners manual diesel supplement, You test it with test strips every 15K miles. Add as needed to keep within a certain range. The additive costs like $5.00 per pint, usually 1 pint is enough. If you don't keep a check on this and have a cavitation problem Ford considers it neglect. Same as running it out of oil. This only on the '01 and earlier models.

The '02's have new different coolant that requires no additives. The '01 and earlier gaskets are not compatible with the new coolant.

The biggest warranty problems come from the addition of aftermarket parts. Especially computer chips and exhaust brakes (Jake Brake). You add either of them and a dealer finds out, they will void the 100K powertrain warranty on the spot.

Later,

David Cole

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MLariviere
Moderator

Posts: 3984
From: Biddeford,Me.USA
Registered: May 99

posted 11-04-2001 09:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MLariviere   Click Here to Email MLariviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Also adding snow removal equipment to a diesel truck will void out it's warranty immediatly,as will any commercial use.

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tomslo
Gearhead

Posts: 319
From: Jefferson City, MO
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 11-05-2001 08:48 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for tomslo   Click Here to Email tomslo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Since you have the commuter car, I say go with the v10. Plenty of power for what you want, and you don't have to turn off the truck when going through the drive through. I got slightly over 11 mpg when pulling my cougar on its last trip to the track. This is right in the ballpark with what my friend's 350 and then 360 were getting pulling the same load. I will have to trade trucks with my dad for a weekend next summer to get PSD mpg with this load.
I have got @3500 miles on my truck and really like the v10 so far.

Tom

------------------
2002 F350 4x4, True Blue, v10 Auto, 4.30LS, 35" BFG's
1991 Mustang LX 5.0L, AOD *need to sell*
1970 Cougar, 351C-4v, C6

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Stewart
Gearhead

Posts: 9743
From: Monterey, CA Mustangsandmore Member #437
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 11-05-2001 12:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Stewart   Click Here to Email Stewart     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I knew about the cavitation problems with diesel engines, and the fact that Ford has the propensity to get out of warranty claims involving cavitation issues, but the torque converter and other problems baffled me.

I still love the Powerstroke, and would rather have one of those than a gas hogging V10.

Stewart

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MLariviere
Moderator

Posts: 3984
From: Biddeford,Me.USA
Registered: May 99

posted 11-06-2001 11:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MLariviere   Click Here to Email MLariviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
C'mon,Stuart! You can get a gasser with 11mpg,with less initial outlay of cash,say $4500-$5000. Or you go for the $5k diesel,get 16 mpg, and deal with the noise,smell and soot. Sure,you will have considerable less power and torque,but just think what you can do with the extra cash. I'd bet that $2000 would get that V10 very close to the diesel.

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Dave_C
Gearhead

Posts: 968
From: Gadsden, Al
Registered: Aug 99

posted 11-09-2001 11:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave_C   Click Here to Email Dave_C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi All,

Thanks to all who gave input on the Powerstroke vs V-10.

Couldn't resist. Bought a PSD yesterday. Found a great deal on a still new 2001. The '01 models have a better financing rate than the "02 (in the fine print on Ford's current ad campaign).

The savings on the interest allowed my to get more of a truck for the same money. Went all out. The interest savings over the life of the loan put the PSD within $2500 of the V-10. It'll be worth more than that on resale. There were no '01 V-10's (other than base XL work trucks) left in the state. I checked every dealer in the state via the web. Had to drive a ways to get it.

When I say all out, I mean it. Bought a dually. 2001, F-350 Super Cab, XLT, DRW, PSD/Auto. Love it in the 165 miles so far. Geared really low w 4.10 limited slip, (all dually's get them) but the tires are tall enough that cruise on the highway @75 mph equals 2400 rpm. First impress on the mpg is excellent. 165 miles so far. 150 highway at 75 mph cruise, 15 miles around town. Topped it off last night. 19.4 mpg! Will prob get better when it's broken in.

Now I get to learn to speak a new language. Rotella or Delo? Oil, lot's of oil. 15 qt changes.

Later,
David Cole

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tomslo
Gearhead

Posts: 319
From: Jefferson City, MO
Registered: Aug 2000

posted 11-09-2001 04:39 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for tomslo   Click Here to Email tomslo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Cool!

I am glad you got what you liked! How long before you start modding it?

You know you need guages, a chip, exhaust, downpipe, intake, and propane!


Have fun with the new truck!

Tom

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lyle29464
Gearhead

Posts: 962
From: Mt. Pleasant S.C.
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 11-28-2001 10:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for lyle29464   Click Here to Email lyle29464     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think I am suffering from male diesel envy

------------------
Lyle
69 rag top 435+ some warm up stuff
93 explorer
98 f 150

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70MachT-5
Gearhead

Posts: 144
From: Pasco, WA (on the banks of the Mighty Columbia River)
Registered: Jan 2000

posted 12-24-2001 02:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 70MachT-5   Click Here to Email 70MachT-5     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dave,
Get the diesel. I bought a 2000 F350 crew cab loaded XLT dually w/ the PSD. It has the camper package (F450 suspension), I have averaged 14.5 to 15 mpg around town. This is the truck I looked at buying for eight years. You will NOT be sorry for getting the diesel. My wife was opposed to the diesel for many years because of the noise/smell. I think she just saw the light and gave me the go-ahead when we needed to replace her E150 van. She loves the truck too. We bought the truck to haul our family of six around and eventually trailer our race 'Stang and show 'Stang.

------------------
MarkC ~ 1970 Mach 1 T-5
1965 coupe vintage racer

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cracing
Gearhead

Posts: 340
From: Saltillo Miss. USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 01-06-2002 06:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cracing   Click Here to Email cracing     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Good luck with your choice. I drive a PS E350 , It is our mobile service truck. It gets 10 to 11 MPG highway,18 qt. oil changes,a minor break down consisting of fuel press. reg.,pressure sensor,& PCM was $1900. No codes were stored,just would not start.Remember this is NOT a Ford engine, it is an International. The 5.9 in the Dodge IS a Ford engine.Ford bought this engine from Cummins. Its a costly bastard too. I will stick with a gas burner. Oh by the way I work for Ryder & work on these things all time.

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Dave_C
Gearhead

Posts: 968
From: Gadsden, Al
Registered: Aug 99

posted 01-06-2002 06:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave_C   Click Here to Email Dave_C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I did the get the F350 PSD dually 4X2. So far it has 2600 miles. I'm getting a solid 18 mpg highway, 16.9 all round and got 13.9 on my first tow with the race car. (250 miles on Interstates round trip) From what I have read on several diesel sites the mileage is highly variable on these things. Some guys only get 10-11, others get much better. Some of the 6 speed manual guys are reporting close to 20 mpg. Many auto trans like mine are right around 17-18. I do take it easy on it for the mileage. No hot rod starts. Set the cruise at 70 on the highway, etc.

Love it so far. Runs and tows like nothing else. Oil changes are 15 qts. Oil and filter from Wal-Mart cost me $33. Changed the oil at 2K to get the break in oil out. Will change again at 5K, then go to 5K intervals per Ford. I added a K & N filter (Christmas gift) and can get fuel filters (every 10K) online for $12. Ford wants $45+

Hopefully it will hold up. Since it's not used in a business it has a 3/36 bumper to bumper warranty and 5/100 engine warranty. If is start having any problems I can buy one of several extended warranties from Ford at any point up until I hit 3/36.

Later,

David Cole

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PonyDoc
Journeyman

Posts: 93
From: Ft. Lauderdale
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 01-06-2002 09:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PonyDoc   Click Here to Email PonyDoc     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
As an owner of the F-250 with the V-10. I'm very happy with it. It's 23 months old and has almost 50,000 miles on it. I special ordered it thru the internet and then went to the local dealer to match it. I got every bell & whistle- Lariat, leather, Supercab w/ long bed, etc. It was under $26K. That's a new truck! I just put dual exhausts and gas mileage went up 2 MPG. I also put a Superchip in and gas mileage went up 2-3 MPG. And it added 40 HP. I got the 5 speed due to a lot of towing. I fried a AT on my F-150 and that's WITH turning off the OD each time!! With the 5 spd, it will eat most rice burners. I didn't know that much metal could go that fast! I tried +gas with the chip and it runs fine. Some need the premium, but you have to test each one. Only drawback is to pull it out BEFORE you go in to the dealer!! The best part is I don't hear the clatter when it's idling! And I don't smell anything! For the $4K difference, that will buy a LOT of gas! My sister has the same with the srew cab and gets 16-18MPG in the mountains with the AT, Go figure-I thought manials got better MPG! And to see how popular they are, try to find one on the used car lot! Diesels- yes-- V-10--NO!

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70boss302
Gearhead

Posts: 370
From: Jeffersonville, NY USA
Registered: Mar 2002

posted 03-05-2002 09:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 70boss302   Click Here to Email 70boss302     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Dave_C, you will be glad you gopt the diesel every time you ....a) pull a trailer...b) climb up an incline...c) fill up your tank....d) race another truck. These babys haul some serious *** ! I have a 99 PSD 4x4 and get 21 mpg's. 750 miles to a tank. They start on the coldest days and run forever. Change your oil every 7500 miles and every other oil change replace your fuel filter and add coolant additive available from your dealer. Good luck. Bill

------------------
70 Boss 302, 71 429 Mach1, 86 RX7 GLX

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Dave_C
Gearhead

Posts: 968
From: Gadsden, Al
Registered: Aug 99

posted 03-05-2002 11:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave_C   Click Here to Email Dave_C     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I am very very pleased with it so far!

Later,

David Cole

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 43151
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 03-06-2002 11:02 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I love that truck!

------------------

'70 Mustang Mach 1 M code 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 open
'72 Mustang Sprint Coupe 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Lok
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip

MCA Member # 47773

An optimist thinks that this is the best possible world. A pessimist fears that this is true.

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MLariviere
Moderator

Posts: 3984
From: Biddeford,Me.USA
Registered: May 99

posted 03-06-2002 09:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MLariviere   Click Here to Email MLariviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
WOW! What a nice rig! I'll get one,someday!

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