I am thinking more like 'road race' performance versus 1/4 mile. It will never see a track but I do want to do things right to make good use of the 4V heads (D1AE) in the 4-6000 rpm range. My 69 Cougar is set up more for handling then straight line.

What I have to work with:
Vintage Torker intake will replace the Performer 4V
FPA headers (1 3/4")
Thinking holley 700DP but haven't bought it yet
Block has been done by previous owner about 30,000 miles ago and is 30 over
69 Cougar with T-5 with 3.35 1st gear, 3:50 gears, 25" tire, power brakes, Crane ignition

I am fine with the soggy bottom end since I have the T-5. I'm thinking shift at 6000 rpm with the rev limiter at 6500.

So, from a build-up stand point what should or shouldn't I do to make sure my money is well spent.

I am thinking:
Machine heads for adjustable valve train and one piece valves for peace of mind
Clean up stock rods
Roller rockers
Typical non-performance orientated short block work without a re-bore. I have done a few stock rebuilds myself over the years but nothing performance or on a clev.

What else should I do?
What type of pistons?
What compression ratio to shoot for?
What cam? I don't mind a mechanical. I am thinking something up to 0.550 lift and 235 duration but is that too much? I don't mind a lope but it is a cruising car. Or should I stick with a hyd?
The heads shouldn't need anything else for a mild build should they?

I'm sure to come up with some more questions and can provide more info as needed. Max hp is not the target given the way my car is set-up, rather a good solid package that all works well together and pulls good +3000 rpm.

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Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,'04 &'05
First NHRA & IHRA 289 automatic Superstock Mustang in the TENS 06-99
First SS/MA in the TENS 04-03
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

A fun, torquey street motor for a stick shift with a wider torque curve will be produced with the smaller heads. A 357 inch motor at 6K just won't make enough flow to give you much advantage with the big heads IMHO.

My 377 stalls to 6K BTW.

I know KV won't agree with this, but I'd put a good mid range hydraulic cam in it too. Then no machining for rocker studs will be needed. I think hydraulics work fine up to 6K

I agree with Alex that a bit bigger carb would work better.

Just my $.02

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Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,'04 &'05
First NHRA & IHRA 289 automatic Superstock Mustang in the TENS 06-99
First SS/MA in the TENS 04-03
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

The real question at this point then is can I build a 4V motor that will run equal to or stronger than a 2V motor in the 3-6K range? And would it be still streetable (about 12-14" vacuum and idle at 800 rpm)? 15" of vacuum is no problem right now.

I would agree that 800cfm would be a better choice on the top end, but could I gain a little more reponse in the lower rpm range where the engine would spend most of its life using a 700 annular?

Alex, I was thinking a 268H would be too mild for the trade off's I can live with. I was thinking more around a 280H would start getting me closer to crossing the line. I don't know this, so I need your guys experience to tell me what is going to far. Sounds like 235 dur and 0.55" lift would be way over.

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Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,'04 &'05
First NHRA & IHRA 289 automatic Superstock Mustang in the TENS 06-99
First SS/MA in the TENS 04-03
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

One of my latter 4V motors was running low 11s and I didn't rev it over 6500rpm. Wasn't as fun on the street with a high converter, but still drove it.

They also came out with a Performer RPM Air Gap which is hands down the best street intake going for hot street engines, and would be LOADS better than the Torker, ESP at low/mid range torque, without losing anything at all
at any rpm for horsepower.

I really don't want to go with different heads, and definitely not new aluminum as the pay back would never be there for my goals. I don't mind working with what I got, really, if I wanted the ultimate performance I should start with a different car right?

The new air-gap would work and maybe an upgrade for the future but I got the Torker on the shelf so thinking why not use it?

So then, there really is no need to modify my heads at all then am I right? Just a typical valve job with new valves for peace of mind and the appropriate valve train components?

Bottom end would be a basic clean up with a hone, new bearings, maybe turn the crank, clean up the rods, new pistons, roller chain, new ARP hardware and a balance. Anything I need to have a machine shop pay particular attention to? I don't need to worry about oiling mods right?

quote:

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Originally posted by macxx1:
Just as another option to the 2v vs 4v head situation, Ebrock just came out with "3v" heads that are designed for inbetween, so have decent
streetability and yet pull well into higher rpms. They also have a modern Yates style comb chamber for good detonation control, etc.

They also came out with a Performer RPM Air Gap which is hands down the best street intake going for hot street engines, and would be LOADS better than the Torker, ESP at low/mid range torque, without losing anything at all
at any rpm for horsepower.

With a manual and decent gears, I'd agree with
the 280H magnum range of cams, also check out
Lunati, they run like stink and make major
torque.

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The Edelbrock heads are worst aftermarket heads for a Cleveland. I would just stick with 2Vs (maybe the aussie version) if you didn't want to run 4V heads.
The Edelbrock airgap intake might be a good 2V intake however.
I would keep the 4V heads and make sure that they have good one piece valves.
A Strip Dominator has pretty good street manners for a single plane intake, and a annular booster carb (like a 750 or the popular 830) will make more low end torque...

If any other thoughts come up, especially regarding the basic prep work then let me know.

Alex is going to set me up with the Comp Cams XE-274 with matching valve train, guide plates, studs, springs, retainers, etc. for the 4V closed chamber heads.

Heads will get stainless valves, probably Miloden with single groove keepers. Hardened seats will be installed.

I'll takes Alex's advice and run the 770 Street Avenger with my vintage Torker.

This engine will never see +6500 or any power adders. So am thinking of running the Keith Black Hypereutectic flat tops which should get me around 10.5 CR. Heads need to be redone yet and cc'd so this is still unknown.

Should I look at any other pistons? Will use stock rods with polished beams and ARP bolts.

No plans for oiling mods or ARP hardware anywhere else, or should I?

Any other tips for building this engine?

Ken

I'm running a 2V cleveland in my 66 F-100. I have a Crane RV cam and the first Edelbrock dual plane 4V intake for 2V heads. With that combo and 3.25 gears the "sweet spot" on the cam is 80 mph. It still wants to pull above that, but in a stock suspension F-100? I can't remember the last time I saw 4000 on the tach. I'm happy with that.

quote:

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Originally posted by Mpcoluv:
Diamond...
TRW ....

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Same thing, just a different name.

quote:

---

Originally posted by kid vishus:
Same thing, just a different name.

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This will allow you to take better advantage of the 4v flows at lower RPMs.

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Nick
65FB 408c AOD D.T.

quote:

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Originally posted by kid vishus:
Same thing, just a different name.

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Not anymore KV.
They are very big in Formula One, Nascar, and recently Pro Stock.
They are working all of us NHRA/IHRA "class racers" very hard as of late also.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,'04 &'05
First NHRA & IHRA 289 automatic Superstock Mustang in the TENS 06-99
First SS/MA in the TENS 04-03
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

I recently built my first 4V clev for the ranchero. Everyone had me concerned about the "problems" with the 4V heads.

I have over 300ft/lbs of torque to the rear wheels from 2200-6000rpms. The car is a pleasure to drive on the street. I have a toploader and 3.70s.

Now, it isn't a neck snapper of idle. But everyone that goes for a ride has a smile on their face when they get out. "...just when you think it's runnin good, it REALLY starts runnin good." Smallish hydo cam 228/236 .544"/.566", torker, 700dp, Hooker comp headers,TRW forged flat-tops.

In retrospect, the only thing I would have done different would be a bigger cam. The cam seemed big to me (Ch*vy experience), but it doesn't seem big at all in the clev.

Good Luck, James

I am thinking the same: alot of these 'problems' with 4V heads come from magazines (read 'Chevy' talk). I really am not concerned about what happens under 2k and most aluminum heads for other engines are bought for upper RPM reasons. These days, popping the hood and having a 4V Cleveland is a lot like when I was a kid and seeing a flat-head.