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  Mercury Cougar
  351c 4v street build opinions

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Author Topic:   351c 4v street build opinions
69Cat
Journeyman

Posts: 97
From: Sask., Canada
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 01-04-2006 10:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 69Cat        Reply w/Quote
OK guys, I've been trying to keep up over the years on what I should do with this engine. I finally have it apart for a rebuild.

I am thinking more like 'road race' performance versus 1/4 mile. It will never see a track but I do want to do things right to make good use of the 4V heads (D1AE) in the 4-6000 rpm range. My 69 Cougar is set up more for handling then straight line.

What I have to work with:
Vintage Torker intake will replace the Performer 4V
FPA headers (1 3/4")
Thinking holley 700DP but haven't bought it yet
Block has been done by previous owner about 30,000 miles ago and is 30 over
69 Cougar with T-5 with 3.35 1st gear, 3:50 gears, 25" tire, power brakes, Crane ignition

I am fine with the soggy bottom end since I have the T-5. I'm thinking shift at 6000 rpm with the rev limiter at 6500.

So, from a build-up stand point what should or shouldn't I do to make sure my money is well spent.

I am thinking:
Machine heads for adjustable valve train and one piece valves for peace of mind
Clean up stock rods
Roller rockers
Typical non-performance orientated short block work without a re-bore. I have done a few stock rebuilds myself over the years but nothing performance or on a clev.

What else should I do?
What type of pistons?
What compression ratio to shoot for?
What cam? I don't mind a mechanical. I am thinking something up to 0.550 lift and 235 duration but is that too much? I don't mind a lope but it is a cruising car. Or should I stick with a hyd?
The heads shouldn't need anything else for a mild build should they?

I'm sure to come up with some more questions and can provide more info as needed. Max hp is not the target given the way my car is set-up, rather a good solid package that all works well together and pulls good +3000 rpm.

Thanks,
Ken

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-04-2006 10:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker        Reply w/Quote
Get a bigger carb.
A 800 or even 850 is what it wants.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,'04 &'05
First NHRA & IHRA 289 automatic Superstock Mustang in the TENS 06-99
First SS/MA in the TENS 04-03
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

Dad Vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 1153
From: Moscow, Iowa, USA
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 01-04-2006 11:24 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dad Vishus        Reply w/Quote
For what you say you want to do here, like not spinning it more that 6K, I'd save the 4V heads for a race oriented motor and find a set of 2Vs.

A fun, torquey street motor for a stick shift with a wider torque curve will be produced with the smaller heads. A 357 inch motor at 6K just won't make enough flow to give you much advantage with the big heads IMHO.

My 377 stalls to 6K BTW.

I know KV won't agree with this, but I'd put a good mid range hydraulic cam in it too. Then no machining for rocker studs will be needed. I think hydraulics work fine up to 6K

I agree with Alex that a bit bigger carb would work better.

Just my $.02

------------------
63 Falcon 377 Cleveland stroker Flying Toilet alchohol injection. 6.19 @ 110 MPH 1/8 mile
2002 Ranger FX4 daily driver
2000 F350 PSD Crew cab dually - Like commuting in a B52!!
98 US Cargo Phantom II 28'

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-05-2006 12:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker        Reply w/Quote
I like solid lifter cams, but in this case I too agree with DV.
The one I did this past summer had some mildly done up 2V heads, a 268H girlyman cam, a 180 intake and a 770 Avenger Holley.
125# seat pressure and about 10.5 to 1 compression.
It flat screams and pulls great to 6K.
It will drag that 73 sled to 130 MPH with those 2.75 gears.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,'04 &'05
First NHRA & IHRA 289 automatic Superstock Mustang in the TENS 06-99
First SS/MA in the TENS 04-03
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

[This message has been edited by Moneymaker (edited 01-05-2006).]

69Cat
Journeyman

Posts: 97
From: Sask., Canada
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 01-05-2006 12:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 69Cat        Reply w/Quote
I hear what you guys are saying about using the 2V heads. It is a situation I have been aware of for the years I have had this car. I like the way the power comes on +3000 rpm and am wondering if there is a way to compliment the 4V cc heads with cam selection without having to turn +7500.

The real question at this point then is can I build a 4V motor that will run equal to or stronger than a 2V motor in the 3-6K range? And would it be still streetable (about 12-14" vacuum and idle at 800 rpm)? 15" of vacuum is no problem right now.

I would agree that 800cfm would be a better choice on the top end, but could I gain a little more reponse in the lower rpm range where the engine would spend most of its life using a 700 annular?

Alex, I was thinking a 268H would be too mild for the trade off's I can live with. I was thinking more around a 280H would start getting me closer to crossing the line. I don't know this, so I need your guys experience to tell me what is going to far. Sounds like 235 dur and 0.55" lift would be way over.

Thanks,
Ken

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-05-2006 01:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker        Reply w/Quote
Smaller carb will not help a Cleveland low end.
I like the XE-274H for your combo with 4V heads.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,'04 &'05
First NHRA & IHRA 289 automatic Superstock Mustang in the TENS 06-99
First SS/MA in the TENS 04-03
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

clevelandstyle
Gearhead

Posts: 1558
From: central Indiana
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 01-05-2006 05:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for clevelandstyle        Reply w/Quote
You can get a 4V motor to run just fine on the street and not crank it over 6200-6300rpm max. When I was running my first 4V Cleveland with a 268H cam and a toploader it would run high 12s and I drove it daily. It made for a fun street car. I would recommend a bigger carb too.

One of my latter 4V motors was running low 11s and I didn't rev it over 6500rpm. Wasn't as fun on the street with a high converter, but still drove it.

------------------
Ben
Grabber Green '70 Mach I 351C 4V
Robbin Egg Blue '79 Fairmont 408C 4V, 10.50 127 MPH
Prowler Purple '87 T'bird Turbo Coupe

macxx1
Journeyman

Posts: 4
From: Gordonville, MO USA
Registered: Jan 2006

posted 01-05-2006 11:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for macxx1        Reply w/Quote
Just as another option to the 2v vs 4v head situation, Ebrock just came out with "3v" heads that are designed for inbetween, so have decent
streetability and yet pull well into higher rpms. They also have a modern Yates style comb chamber for good detonation control, etc.

They also came out with a Performer RPM Air Gap which is hands down the best street intake going for hot street engines, and would be LOADS better than the Torker, ESP at low/mid range torque, without losing anything at all
at any rpm for horsepower.

With a manual and decent gears, I'd agree with
the 280H magnum range of cams, also check out
Lunati, they run like stink and make major
torque.

69Cat
Journeyman

Posts: 97
From: Sask., Canada
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 01-05-2006 11:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 69Cat        Reply w/Quote
Well, I do like the idea of a hyd cam as it makes my life easier. The XE274 seems kind of over-the-top but it is good to know I am in the ball park so thanks Alex.

I really don't want to go with different heads, and definitely not new aluminum as the pay back would never be there for my goals. I don't mind working with what I got, really, if I wanted the ultimate performance I should start with a different car right?

The new air-gap would work and maybe an upgrade for the future but I got the Torker on the shelf so thinking why not use it?

So then, there really is no need to modify my heads at all then am I right? Just a typical valve job with new valves for peace of mind and the appropriate valve train components?

Bottom end would be a basic clean up with a hone, new bearings, maybe turn the crank, clean up the rods, new pistons, roller chain, new ARP hardware and a balance. Anything I need to have a machine shop pay particular attention to? I don't need to worry about oiling mods right?

Keep the info coming,
Ken

Mpcoluv
Gearhead

Posts: 1421
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 01-06-2006 06:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mpcoluv        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by macxx1:
Just as another option to the 2v vs 4v head situation, Ebrock just came out with "3v" heads that are designed for inbetween, so have decent
streetability and yet pull well into higher rpms. They also have a modern Yates style comb chamber for good detonation control, etc.

They also came out with a Performer RPM Air Gap which is hands down the best street intake going for hot street engines, and would be LOADS better than the Torker, ESP at low/mid range torque, without losing anything at all
at any rpm for horsepower.

With a manual and decent gears, I'd agree with
the 280H magnum range of cams, also check out
Lunati, they run like stink and make major
torque.


The Edelbrock heads are worst aftermarket heads for a Cleveland. I would just stick with 2Vs (maybe the aussie version) if you didn't want to run 4V heads.
The Edelbrock airgap intake might be a good 2V intake however.
I would keep the 4V heads and make sure that they have good one piece valves.
A Strip Dominator has pretty good street manners for a single plane intake, and a annular booster carb (like a 750 or the popular 830) will make more low end torque...

clevelandstyle
Gearhead

Posts: 1558
From: central Indiana
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 01-06-2006 07:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for clevelandstyle        Reply w/Quote
Since you have 4Vs and a Torker, run them. You can't go wrong. Definately replace the valves in the heads. The factory valves are knonw for breaking. Torker isn't a bad intake for your purpose. The Edelbrock Airgap only fits 2V heads anyway. So do the basic mods you listed and you don't need the oil restrictors with a juice cam. The heads studs are optional.

------------------
Ben
Grabber Green '70 Mach I 351C 4V
Robbin Egg Blue '79 Fairmont 408C 4V, 10.50 127 MPH
Prowler Purple '87 T'bird Turbo Coupe

69Cat
Journeyman

Posts: 97
From: Sask., Canada
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 01-06-2006 11:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 69Cat        Reply w/Quote
This is good info guys, I can go talk with a couple of machine shops now with a good idea of the work I want them to do on the block and heads. Thinking of shooting for 10.5:1 compression with some flat top pistons. The ones in there have a little bit of a dish so will have to get the shop to figure out what my CR is now, maybe I'll keep them.

If any other thoughts come up, especially regarding the basic prep work then let me know.

Ken

69Cat
Journeyman

Posts: 97
From: Sask., Canada
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 01-28-2006 09:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 69Cat        Reply w/Quote
Anybody have thoughts on what pistons to run?

Alex is going to set me up with the Comp Cams XE-274 with matching valve train, guide plates, studs, springs, retainers, etc. for the 4V closed chamber heads.

Heads will get stainless valves, probably Miloden with single groove keepers. Hardened seats will be installed.

I'll takes Alex's advice and run the 770 Street Avenger with my vintage Torker.

This engine will never see +6500 or any power adders. So am thinking of running the Keith Black Hypereutectic flat tops which should get me around 10.5 CR. Heads need to be redone yet and cc'd so this is still unknown.

Should I look at any other pistons? Will use stock rods with polished beams and ARP bolts.

No plans for oiling mods or ARP hardware anywhere else, or should I?

Any other tips for building this engine?

Ken


DidgeyTrucker
Gearhead

Posts: 1813
From: Greenbrier, TN USA
Registered: Oct 99

posted 01-28-2006 11:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for DidgeyTrucker        Reply w/Quote
Honestly, how often will the motor turn 3000+? 4000+? 5000+?

I'm running a 2V cleveland in my 66 F-100. I have a Crane RV cam and the first Edelbrock dual plane 4V intake for 2V heads. With that combo and 3.25 gears the "sweet spot" on the cam is 80 mph. It still wants to pull above that, but in a stock suspension F-100? I can't remember the last time I saw 4000 on the tach. I'm happy with that.

Tracy

Mpcoluv
Gearhead

Posts: 1421
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 01-29-2006 08:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mpcoluv        Reply w/Quote
Flat tops should be fine for pistons.
Hypers should be fine for your stated goals, but if you mant more power etc.. in the future (and who doesn't), I would buy forged pistons.
JE/SRP, Ross, Arias and Diamond all make Flat top forged pistons.
TRW used to make a set I think.
Unless the Hypers are WAY cheaper, forged pistons are the way to go.

kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 7251
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 01-29-2006 08:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mpcoluv:
Diamond...
TRW ....

Same thing, just a different name.

Mpcoluv
Gearhead

Posts: 1421
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 01-29-2006 10:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mpcoluv        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kid vishus:
Same thing, just a different name.


Is Diamond the guys machining raw TRW slugs?
Or are the Diamond and TRW pistons the exact same thing?
BTW what ever happened to Lunati pistons after Holley bought themout?

69Cat
Journeyman

Posts: 97
From: Sask., Canada
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 01-29-2006 10:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 69Cat        Reply w/Quote
Cheap forged aren't that much more. At Summit about US$10 extra per for Speed Pro. The hypers should be a little lighter so does that make them better for my application? I dunno. So do I buy better forged ones to get something lighter? That is what I am debating.

dodgestang
Gearhead

Posts: 207
From: Cecil County, MD, USA
Registered: Mar 2004

posted 01-31-2006 08:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for dodgestang        Reply w/Quote
Have you considered increasing the displacement to 393 via a stroker setup?

This will allow you to take better advantage of the 4v flows at lower RPMs.

------------------
Nick
65FB 408c AOD D.T.

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-31-2006 09:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kid vishus:
Same thing, just a different name.


Not anymore KV.
They are very big in Formula One, Nascar, and recently Pro Stock.
They are working all of us NHRA/IHRA "class racers" very hard as of late also.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,'04 &'05
First NHRA & IHRA 289 automatic Superstock Mustang in the TENS 06-99
First SS/MA in the TENS 04-03
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

70rancheroGT
Journeyman

Posts: 48
From: Durham, NC
Registered: Mar 2005

posted 02-01-2006 11:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 70rancheroGT        Reply w/Quote
4V's aren't soggy...

I recently built my first 4V clev for the ranchero. Everyone had me concerned about the "problems" with the 4V heads.

I have over 300ft/lbs of torque to the rear wheels from 2200-6000rpms. The car is a pleasure to drive on the street. I have a toploader and 3.70s.

Now, it isn't a neck snapper of idle. But everyone that goes for a ride has a smile on their face when they get out. "...just when you think it's runnin good, it REALLY starts runnin good." Smallish hydo cam 228/236 .544"/.566", torker, 700dp, Hooker comp headers,TRW forged flat-tops.

In retrospect, the only thing I would have done different would be a bigger cam. The cam seemed big to me (Ch*vy experience), but it doesn't seem big at all in the clev.

Good Luck, James

69Cat
Journeyman

Posts: 97
From: Sask., Canada
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 02-01-2006 06:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 69Cat        Reply w/Quote
Thanks James, good story

I am thinking the same: alot of these 'problems' with 4V heads come from magazines (read 'Chevy' talk). I really am not concerned about what happens under 2k and most aluminum heads for other engines are bought for upper RPM reasons. These days, popping the hood and having a 4V Cleveland is a lot like when I was a kid and seeing a flat-head.

The real trick seems to pay more attention with the 4V to make sure everything works together and that is why I need you guys to help me. Sure, 2V heads would make an easier build but if everything works together on a 4V I should be further ahead for the same dollar.

69Cat
Journeyman

Posts: 97
From: Sask., Canada
Registered: Apr 2002

posted 02-01-2006 06:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 69Cat        Reply w/Quote
Nick, I would like to build a stroker but I need to draw the line somewhere 'A fool and his money .....' To do this properly it should be a stroker with a mechanical cam but I am going WAY past what is practical for me. My crank and rods are good and meet my goals so there I stay.

Alex, I'll be looking at the Speed Pro Hypers you suggest as the 10.6 CR estimated is better than the KB Hypers. When I get some info on my heads I'll know better.

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