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Author Topic:   Grassroots Motorsports car
rm302 boss
Moderator

Posts: 652
From: Austin Texas
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 04-01-2003 10:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rm302 boss   Click Here to Email rm302 boss     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK, i am going to bug all of you with this.. I am going to build a entry for the 2004 GRM competition.. I have a 1985 Fox body Mustang with a 351w in it and a C-4 .... I need as much help as possible so i will be posting a bunch... I will also be looking for cheep used parts; springs,shocks,rims,and just about any info to go faster and corner better.. So, i hope you do not mind and will help out..
Vroom.... Vroom............
Rene

------------------
1970 Boss 302
1990 Taurus SHO
1985 Mustang GT 351W
1995 Land rover Disco
1980 Triumph Spitfire (auto-X car)
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/MembersPics/rm302boss.html

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[email protected]
Gearhead

Posts: 542
From: Lakewood, CO, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 04-02-2003 10:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for JCQuinn@work   Click Here to Email JCQuinn@work     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It would help us (at least me) if we knew what the GRM competition was and what the rules for your engine and suspension were.

John

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rm302 boss
Moderator

Posts: 652
From: Austin Texas
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 04-02-2003 02:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rm302 boss   Click Here to Email rm302 boss     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
WOW, a lot of you have told me the same thing.. Its hard for me believe that most of you have never heard of GRM..
Here are the rules..

Grassroots Motorsports $2003 Challenge Rules

This Challenge is designed and run as an editorial event for a privately owned magazine. As such, the rules and event should be taken with a certain spirit in mind. In other words, all entrants should play well with others. It will make the event much more pleasant for all of those involved.

Production-based passenger cars only. No kit cars, dune-buggies or formula-type cars will be allowed. No Zambonis will be allowed to enter.

Cars must be road-worthy, meaning basic street equipment must be present: functioning headlights, windshields, working brake lights, working horn and DOT-approved tires. Non-DOT-legal slicks are allowed at the drag strip, but must be replaced by DOT-legal tires for the autocross competition due to safety reasons. All major body panels must be present. Interiors may be gutted, although the basic dashboard must remain. Windows may be replaced with clear plastic.

Cars do not have to be built for any recognized sanctioned race class. Nitrous oxide, forced induction and radical engine swaps are permitted. (As per SCCA rules, nitrous oxide may not be used at the autocross event.)

All cars must pass a SCCA Solo II safety inspection. Items checked will include throttle return spring, battery tie down, lug nuts, seat belts, brake pedal pressure and the overall soundness of the car. (Stock components in good working order will pass.)

Cars must also meet all NHRA safety regulations. This includes, in addition to the items required by the Solo II rules, the presence of front, side and rear windows. Open-top cars may run if the driver is wearing arm restraints and approved seat belts. All cars capable of running 11.99 or better must have a NHRA legal rollcage, while open cars capable of running 13.99 or better must have a NHRA legal cage. All cars must also feature a working tail light.
All builders shall spend no more than $2003 on their cars. All parts used at the event (including multiple sets of tires) shall be part of that $2003 budget. Parts that are not used may be sold up to the initial cost of the car. In other words, if you buy a $500 challenge car, you can recoup up to $500 of your budget by selling parts. (If you do turn a profit on selling parts off the car, we suggest you take your significant other out to dinner to compensate them for having a $2003 car hanging around the house.)

Entrants must show up to the competition with complete documentation totaling, at most, $2003. Entrants must bring receipts or verifiable proof for each item on the car, including the car itself. This information will be available at registration for all entrants to view.

If parts or vehicles are already owned by the competitor, they must be figured into the budget at fair market value at today's prices.

Parts that are given to the competitor by a company or person must be figured into the budget at fair market value. Sponsorships are allowed, but any product or service that is used in building the car must be figured into the $2003 budget.

Parts cars may be purchased. Parts that are not used may be sold up to the initial cost of the car. In other words, if you buy a $500 parts car, you can recoup up to $500 of your budget by selling parts. (If you do turn a profit on selling parts off the car, we suggest you take your significant other out to dinner to compensate them for having a parts car hanging around the house.)

Any car may be protested by another entrant. The entrant who is questioning the budgetary legality of another car shall present their case and a protest fee of $50 to the Independent Council. The Independent Council will rule on the car. If the Council says the car is legal, then the protest is dropped and the protest fee is forfeited. If the Council says the car is not legal, then the owner has two choices: run for exhibition only or go home. In this case, the protest fee would be returned.

The ruling of the Independent Council shall be binding and is not open to dispute. The Independent Council will be selected by the GRM office staff before the event. All protest intentions must be presented to the Independent Council by the end of the first day of competition.

Broken parts may be replaced at the event on an emergency basis, but penalty points may be awarded if the total value exceeds the limit of $2003.

Past Challenge cars may be entered. Past winners will automatically be evaluated by the Independent Council.

Past Challenge cars and their parts cannot be sold and repurchased in an effort to depreciate their value for budget purposes.

If parts are sold off the past Challenge car, the amount "credited" to the budget cannot exceed A) fair market value AND B) must meet all other challenge rules (ie, if you sold $300 worth of parts off of your $300 car for the last challenge, you can't credit yourself $200 for a bumper that you took off for the upcoming challenge...as you've already credited yourself the maximum amount per previous challenge budgeting).

Tires and brake pads, if they are worn out, can be replaced up to the value that they were originally listed at for the previous challenge (ie: $200 tires can be replaced with up to $200 tires)

Wristbands will be administered to all paid entrants and banquet attendees. These wristbands must be worn at all times. No exceptions.

The GRM staff reserves the right to make any changes, additions or adjustments to these rules at any time.

------------------
1970 Boss 302
1990 Taurus SHO
1985 Mustang GT 351W
1995 Land rover Disco
1980 Triumph Spitfire (auto-X car)
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/MembersPics/rm302boss.html

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rm302 boss
Moderator

Posts: 652
From: Austin Texas
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 04-02-2003 08:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rm302 boss   Click Here to Email rm302 boss     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Cake right???? Now my low down on the car i have ;
I picked up a 1985 Mustang that the owner put a early model 351w with a C-4 trans.. He also installed the Quad shock 8.8 in the rear.
The power plant has a small cam,BBK stainless headers and H-pipe with ok exhaust, a Edlebrock intake and carb, tall Motorsport valve covers. I have poo poo for gears and a slipping trans so i will need to do something about both. Up to date (with car purchase) i am at $758.00.... I have sold some of the stuff that came with the car like stereo a Huge electric fuel pump ( that would flood out a 1050 Dominator)..
Stuff like that. Any suggestions are very welcome..
Rene

------------------
1970 Boss 302
1990 Taurus SHO
1985 Mustang GT 351W
1995 Land rover Disco
1980 Triumph Spitfire (auto-X car)
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/MembersPics/rm302boss.html

[This message has been edited by rm302 boss (edited 04-02-2003).]

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 37258
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 04-03-2003 09:44 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'd say the first step is to put it on a diet. It looks like they let you gut the interior and replace the door glass with lexan or plastic. Moving the battery to the rear will help the front/rear bias.

The rules seem to rely very heavily on the honor system.

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 37258
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 04-03-2003 09:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It looks like you can lose the passenger and rear seats, too.

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150

Please remember our sponsors,
Mustangs Plus, NPD, Osborn Reproductions, MyFordPerformance.com, and FordRamAir.com

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rm302 boss
Moderator

Posts: 652
From: Austin Texas
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 04-03-2003 10:03 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for rm302 boss   Click Here to Email rm302 boss     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Or use one of the Simpson baby seats.... A guy did that the first year... And won... I have a set of Kirkey race seats all ready and 5 point harnesses. It does rely on the honor system a lot but it is also very hard to fool all of the other competitors who can toss you out... Besides cheating would not be any fun.. The whole point is to play not to win for me. I have wanted to do this since the first one in 2000...
I have an old Hyd roller cam and lifter combo i need to put in as well.. Mainly i need gears and suspension work.. And yes a very very good diet...
Go on line and look up the history of the GRM challenge it has photos from all years..
Rene

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[email protected]
Gearhead

Posts: 542
From: Lakewood, CO, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 04-03-2003 10:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for JCQuinn@work   Click Here to Email JCQuinn@work     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
At the risk of putting a large dent in the budget, I recommend getting some used gt-40 or GT-40P heads. If you watch e-bay you can sometimes get some good deals. They won't help lighten the car but they breathe better than the 351 heads. I got a set for $400 from e-bay and another member (Stinger) just scored a set for $350.

See my reply to your connectors post. Get that book it will be very helpful.

John

[This message has been edited by [email protected] (edited 04-03-2003).]

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Hell_Fish
Gearhead

Posts: 712
From: Austin, TX.
Registered: May 2002

posted 04-03-2003 10:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hell_Fish   Click Here to Email Hell_Fish     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey, its getting a Holley carb. The E-brock is mine, remember. What is the compression ratio of the GT-40 or 40P heads? Keep is mind that this is a tight budget build up. I Lexan usable for street cars? Carpet and insulation have to go, ground effects, gone! Needs manual steering (let weight and no power drain). So.... what parts do you need?

------------------
Dustin C
"The Mopar Guy!"
56 F-100
Mech. for wifes 69 Mustang coupe
65 Plymouth Barracuda
70 Dodge Swinger

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[email protected]
Gearhead

Posts: 542
From: Lakewood, CO, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 04-03-2003 12:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JCQuinn@work   Click Here to Email JCQuinn@work     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hell Fish, compression ratio is contolled by the size of the combustion chamber which is controlled by a milling machine. Stock heads are generally about 1 point lower than advertised, milled heads are whatever the milling limit is. As far as horsepower increases IMHO you can't beat better breathing heads with higher compression on a cost per increase basis.

John

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rm302 boss
Moderator

Posts: 652
From: Austin Texas
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 04-03-2003 01:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rm302 boss   Click Here to Email rm302 boss     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No offence to any one...But, hp is use less unless i can put it down... 1/4 mile is only one third of the competition. I need an ability to turn and stop more efficiently. AS much as i would love the heads ( and believe me i would) That will take out all most 1/2 of what i have left to spend..I could not do much to make it handle and my trans is all ready so so.. I need torque that wins races hp is nice but on short tracks torque will beat out high hp cars.. I have had a hard time learning that one. What do all of you think about Gears i found a set of 3.55 and a set of 4.30 for 50-100 bucks? which ones??
Rene

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rm302 boss
Moderator

Posts: 652
From: Austin Texas
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 04-03-2003 10:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rm302 boss   Click Here to Email rm302 boss     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK, the room got quiet...
Rene

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Hell_Fish
Gearhead

Posts: 712
From: Austin, TX.
Registered: May 2002

posted 04-04-2003 11:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hell_Fish   Click Here to Email Hell_Fish     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
JCQuinn, I understand how it works. I wanted to know what there compression was out on the box. I also, know that buying a set of heads and getting them milled is not the way to fly on a budget. Aluminum heads should be one point higher to act the same as iron heads. Also, if both and alumnum and iron head compared and all things are equal, except for what they are cast out of, the iron heads will perform better.

Rene, I would say the 3.55's. You wouldn't want to much hook going around a turn. Like your buddies AC Cobra.

------------------
Dustin C
"The Mopar Guy!"
56 F-100
Mech. for wifes 69 Mustang coupe
65 Plymouth Barracuda
70 Dodge Swinger

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[email protected]
Gearhead

Posts: 542
From: Lakewood, CO, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 04-04-2003 12:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JCQuinn@work   Click Here to Email JCQuinn@work     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hell_Fish, what I was trying to get across is the only way to know the compression ratio out of the box is to actually measure the combustion chamber. Advertised ratios are always off, advertised combustion chamber size is often way off.

Torque is made by combustion pressure, pressure in a fixed cylinder size is increased by either getting more intake charge per intake stroke (More efficient cylinder heads) or by increasing the dynamic cylinder pressure before ignition (a function of cam timing and static compression ratio)

John

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rm302 boss
Moderator

Posts: 652
From: Austin Texas
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 04-04-2003 02:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rm302 boss   Click Here to Email rm302 boss     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thats it every body out side!!, as my mom would say .... he he he...
Rene

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Kyle
Gearhead

Posts: 293
From: Sumner, WA
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 04-04-2003 04:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kyle   Click Here to Email Kyle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, my take on this subject is go with a power adder. In particular, a turbocharger or two. Turbos make a ton of torque and use a small cam to do it. Price wouldn't be all that bad, either. Get a couple of junkyard turbos- there's a yard around here that charges $16.50 each for any turbo. You use the BBK headers that you have, and as long as you or somebody you know is handy with a welder, you can fab the intake tubing yourself. Thats what I would do. Look here:

www.toohighpsi.com

I second John's suggestion about getting the Mustang Performance Handbook; Vol. II. Great info on autocrossing, street, or strip chassis set-ups. Lays out the plans on how to build full-length subframe connectors, among lots of other things.

Just my $.02

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Hell_Fish
Gearhead

Posts: 712
From: Austin, TX.
Registered: May 2002

posted 04-04-2003 04:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hell_Fish   Click Here to Email Hell_Fish     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ok, John. I understand what you are saying. Thanks.

------------------
Dustin C
"The Mopar Guy!"
56 F-100
Mech. for wifes 69 Mustang coupe
65 Plymouth Barracuda
70 Dodge Swinger

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rm302 boss
Moderator

Posts: 652
From: Austin Texas
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 04-04-2003 11:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rm302 boss   Click Here to Email rm302 boss     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kyle:
Well, my take on this subject is go with a power adder. In particular, a turbocharger or two. Turbos make a ton of torque and use a small cam to do it. Price wouldn't be all that bad, either. Get a couple of junkyard turbos- there's a yard around here that charges $16.50 each for any turbo. You use the BBK headers that you have, and as long as you or somebody you know is handy with a welder, you can fab the intake tubing yourself. Thats what I would do. Look here:

www.toohighpsi.com

I second John's suggestion about getting the Mustang Performance Handbook; Vol. II. Great info on auto crossing, street, or strip chassis set-ups. Lays out the plans on how to build full-length sub frame connectors, among lots of other things.

Just my $.02


I worked my way through high school working at race car shop. I can weld of fabricate most any thing. Turbo's.. are hard to come by down here due to the rice boys buying them up and with out a fi system i think that i would leave the forced induction alone..... I plan on making and installing a set of full length sub frames along with camber plates all home built. I have access to welders and tubing benders etc... Its cheaper to build than buy right now so i will stick with what i know.. Thanks for the help , i ordered both the first and the second of those books... Lets hope that they what every one says they are..
Rene

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rm302 boss
Moderator

Posts: 652
From: Austin Texas
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 09-03-2003 11:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for rm302 boss   Click Here to Email rm302 boss     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well i built my own sub frame conectors and installed them in the floors... wow what a diffrence i can now change tires on one side of the car with one jack point near the front K member and the whole side of the car will rise evenly.. Talk about stiff...... I am going to drop the front K member out and move the engine back 2" for a better weight balance..
I have mounted a 5 gal fuel cell and battery in the car near the pass side to even out the weight .. The project is going well..
Rene

------------------
1970 Boss 302
1990 Taurus SHO
1985 Mustang GT 351W
1995 Land rover Disco
1980 Triumph Spitfire (auto-X car)
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/MembersPics/rm302boss.html

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 1700
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 09-06-2003 10:43 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rm302 boss:
...i ordered both the first and the second of those books... Lets hope that they what every one says they are..
Rene


Were you happy with the book purchase?
Did they help you very much?

Ryan

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bigblocked85
Gearhead

Posts: 119
From: Waterford,MI
Registered: May 2003

posted 09-07-2003 03:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bigblocked85   Click Here to Email bigblocked85     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Rene, I'll try to give you some tips off the top of my head

-look for adjustable front struts at swap so you can adjust for drag and turns.
-look for fiberglass hood at swap
-remove ALL unecessary crap. wiring,vacuum,a/c,heater box and components,carpet,sound deadener etc. etc.
-power adder, definately go with a used nitrous system from a swap
-upgrade those crappy front discs with later model units
-replace all rubber with poly bushings, especially rear suspension
-weld and box your torque boxes
-box your stock lower control arms
-adjustable upper control arms (preferably double adjustable)
-weld your rearend to make it a locker
-install air bags in both rear springs (use right side for 1/4 mile and both for turns)
-remove front bumper and reinforce bumper cover with tubing and great stuff foam
-remove crash bar from doors
-check and double check U joints
-dont forget driveshaft loop
-for the front springs you might want to get some 4 cylinder coils. they will help you transfer better off the line and for turns you can make up some real tight limiters with coil blocks
-maybe some quick disconnects for your front anti sway bar

as for your drivetrain stuff I cant remember what you had. I'll read it again and see if I can think of more stuff for you. I'm trying to think of good cheap easy stuff. This actually sounds like a lot of fun. Good luck

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rm302 boss
Moderator

Posts: 652
From: Austin Texas
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 09-09-2003 10:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rm302 boss   Click Here to Email rm302 boss     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yeah, she has all ready been on a good
diet...... I picked up a set of SVO control arms for it but no one can tell me if they fit or not....
Rene

------------------
1970 Boss 302
1990 Taurus SHO
1985 Mustang GT 351W
1995 Land rover Disco
1980 Triumph Spitfire (auto-X car)
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/MembersPics/rm302boss.html

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bigblocked85
Gearhead

Posts: 119
From: Waterford,MI
Registered: May 2003

posted 09-10-2003 12:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for bigblocked85   Click Here to Email bigblocked85     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Rene, Which control arms are you talkin about? FRP offers stock style heavy duty lowers, stock style heavy duty uppers and the tubular lowers. No matter which ones you got they will fit your car. If you bought the stock style lowers, I would return them and get your money back. Because if you plate your stock lowers that will be more than enough strength. I would highly recommend the adjustable uppers.
Remember that your "85" stang has a 7.5 rearend. Not to strong, especially if its a high mileage car. You may want to keep your eye out for a 8.8 rear. You also have dinky little disks up front. I would highly recommend swapping those for later model units. You can get the spindles at a wrecking yard and get rotors, calipers and pads from your local Autozone,Murrays or whatever you have locally.
Just as a note, an 8.8 mustang rear will fit right into your car with no mods. They utilize the same geometery control arms etc.
I cant emphasize enough about the poly bushings. Thats a must.
Later, Gordon

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rm302 boss
Moderator

Posts: 652
From: Austin Texas
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 09-10-2003 12:46 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for rm302 boss   Click Here to Email rm302 boss     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The 85 has a quad shock 8.8 with 3.50 gears (Yuck) i need 4.30's.. The power plant is a warmed over roller camed 351w with a c-4 trans.
I just bought a 93 ( for $30.00 No i am not joking). I was either going to use the SVO a arms and spindles or the 93's.. The SVO's will get me over 1" wider stance for better cornering and i can use SVO big brakes... And best of all i got them cheep...I need to stay 4 lug because i have 3 sets of rims... Drag, road , street...
Rene

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rm302 boss
Moderator

Posts: 652
From: Austin Texas
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 10-03-2003 12:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for rm302 boss   Click Here to Email rm302 boss     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was looking in to a set of rear control arms. Any pros and cons?? what is every one else using and what kind of racing are you doing?
Rene

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Jim B
Journeyman

Posts: 10
From: Chicago
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 12-03-2003 09:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim B   Click Here to Email Jim B     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have a set of Tubular rear LCA that I would be willing to sell. If you have true SVO front LCAs then I would sell them as they are hard to come by. There are many SVO owners who need them. Go with a LCA out of a 87-88 Tbird as then are similar to the Mustang LCA but 3/4 of an inch longer, the SVOs are 1 inch longer then a Mustang.

I have worked on Fox Muatangs for years and have built many parts for the car. Camber plates, Tubular LCAs, panhard bar, coil over conversion, etc.

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rm302 boss
Moderator

Posts: 652
From: Austin Texas
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 12-06-2003 04:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rm302 boss   Click Here to Email rm302 boss     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I do need a set of camber plates and would be interested in your coil over set up. Please drop me a line... As for the rear control arms i have a set of drop tublar ones all ready on the car but i do thank you..

------------------
1970 Boss 302
1990 Taurus SHO
1985 Mustang GT 351W
www.crcmotorsports.com

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Jim B
Journeyman

Posts: 10
From: Chicago
Registered: Feb 2003

posted 12-10-2003 04:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Jim B   Click Here to Email Jim B     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you want to talk about Parts for your project lets talk direct via email. My email address is: ([email protected])

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rm302 boss
Moderator

Posts: 652
From: Austin Texas
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 12-10-2003 04:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rm302 boss   Click Here to Email rm302 boss     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You have mail....

------------------
1970 Boss 302
1990 Taurus SHO
1985 Mustang GT 351W
www.crcmotorsports.com

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