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Author Topic:   I need some exhaust help
Boss302
Gearhead

Posts: 783
From: Coleman, Wisconsin
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 09-18-2002 06:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Boss302   Click Here to Email Boss302     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
alright...me and my dad are planning on putting in a new clutch this winter, and we also want to put in a whole new exhaust system during the process. the one thing we can agree on is an off-road H-pipe, but we can't seem to agree on a muffler. thats what i need help on. i like the sound that the car has now with the 4 orig. cats with the mufflers cut out.(don't know if you've heard that kind of setup) so i want a pair of mufflers that sound exactly, or close to that. i know i'm picky, but i want a GREAT sounding car....any help would be appreciated.

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 26864
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 09-18-2002 06:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
First of all, are you sure the off road pipe will be legal in Wisconsin? Have you checked into that to be sure? You don't want a car you can't register.

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150

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capri man
Gearhead

Posts: 2075
From: doerun, ga.
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 09-18-2002 08:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for capri man   Click Here to Email capri man     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i know that i will get some arguments here but i would go with an X pipe over the H pipe. it sounds better and works better. of course this answer your question about the muffins does it!!

------------------
mike r
racing is real
everything else is just a game.
81 capri-7.51 @89mph 1/8
1.54 60 ft.
http://prestage.com/site/site_display.asp?SiteID=141

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Boss302
Gearhead

Posts: 783
From: Coleman, Wisconsin
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 09-18-2002 08:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Boss302   Click Here to Email Boss302     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i'm pretty sure an off road H would be legal here. my dad said it would be fine, and he should know. i hope he does anyways

x-pipes are more expensive though aren't they?? thats always a factor...but i'll keep it in mind

[This message has been edited by Boss302 (edited 09-18-2002).]

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Stewart
Moderator

Posts: 8505
From: Monterey, CA Mustangsandmore Member #437
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 09-18-2002 08:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Stewart   Click Here to Email Stewart     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Steve is correct, you need to make sure your state smog laws allows this type of modification to your exhaust.

With that said, you can do what I do and put on an offroad H-Pipe and keep the stock H-pipe with cats in storage. Then whenever you need to get it smogged, put the OEM pipes back on for the smog check (here in California, it's every two years).

Another option is getting a MagnaFlow X-Pipe with high flow cats (or a similar setup) to go along with the mufflers of your choice. Make sure the high flow cats (should you choose this option) will be good enough to make the car pass smog.

As for you muffler question, two-chamber Flowmasters are really popular out here, along with Borla, MagnaFlow, and Mac.

Track down some local 5.0 owners and listen to their setup. That's the best way to determine how to get the sound you desire.

Stewart

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 26864
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 09-18-2002 08:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Boss302:
i'm pretty sure an off road H would be legal here. my dad said it would be fine, and he should know. i hope he does anyways

x-pipes are more expensive though aren't they?? thats always a factor...but i'll keep it in mind

[This message has been edited by Boss302 (edited 09-18-2002).]


Don't assume anything--check. You can't remove the cats in Maine, and we're an easy state.

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150

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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 26864
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 09-18-2002 08:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I just checked for you. You CAN'T remove the cats:

http://www.dot.state.wi.us/dmv/im.html

The purpose of the Wisconsin Vehicle Inspection Program (VIP) is to identify vehicles:

* With excessive exhaust emissions and require them to meet reasonable emission standards to reduce vehicle-related air pollution, and those
* That have experienced emission equipment tampering, regardless of how caused. The owners of these vehicles are required to have "tampered" items repaired, replaced, or adjusted to proper working order before the vehicle can be registered.
* The Department of Natural Resources (DNR) sets the emission standards for vehicles. WisDOT administers the Vehicle Inspection Program.

Emission tests are required on automobiles and on trucks with a manufacturer's gross vehicle weight less than 14,000 pounds that are customarily kept in Sheboygan county and the southeastern Wisconsin counties of Kenosha, Milwaukee, Ozaukee, Racine, Washington and Waukesha. Exceptions are vehicles produced prior to the 1968 model year, diesel-powered vehicles and motorcycles. Approximately 800,000 tests are conducted each year.

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150

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capri man
Gearhead

Posts: 2075
From: doerun, ga.
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 09-18-2002 09:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for capri man   Click Here to Email capri man     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
boss302, a local muffler shop built my X pipe and installed it for less than $100.

------------------
mike r
racing is real
everything else is just a game.
81 capri-7.51 @89mph 1/8
1.54 60 ft.
http://prestage.com/site/site_display.asp?SiteID=141

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F551
Gearhead

Posts: 141
From: Manitoba, Canada
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 09-18-2002 10:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for F551   Click Here to Email F551     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey Boss

I did the exhaust on my 86GT this summer.

Flowtech X pipe with Flowmaster American Thunder Cat-back mufflers/tailpipes.

I am very happy - has a great idle sound, OK around town and very aggressive when you get on the throttle.

The stuff fitted not bad, is all 2 1/2" and has the correct Stainless tips on the tailpipes.

Can't say that I noticed any power increase
(rest of the car is bone stock) but it does seem to run cooler.

Our emmissions laws are pretty soft - Stewart's plan of keeping the cats for future use might work!

The mufflers were rotted right out and the Cats were rattling. The new system is actually quieter than I expected but I think you'd be happy .

Maybe next summer I can talk the wife into headers!

------------------
Fred
68 Mustang 500CID/Powerglide - "No Tubs"
86 Mustang GT Cobra

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FISHTAIL
Gearhead

Posts: 527
From: Waldorf MD USA
Registered: Sep 2000

posted 09-18-2002 11:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for FISHTAIL   Click Here to Email FISHTAIL     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I do like stew....I have an offroad that stays on the car most of the time, and I switch it back over to the cat pipe when it comes time for emmissions. But...believe it or not, the car pass w/o the cats. It was low enough at the time that they couldn't see under it, and it passed the idle test(to low for the dyno). LOL, not anymore though. Just keep the orig pipe. Xpipes and Hpipes are near the same price, but sound different. With a stock car, you probably won't notice a power increase with the swap(well perhaps a small one when removing the cats, but a loss in torque), but you will definalty notice a difference in sound. From my experience, Xpipes tend to produce a raspier, higher pitched tone, while the Hpipes make for a bassier note. As for the catback.....you have TONS of choices. Borla is probably the best you'll find, but it's also the most expensive. It also sounds rather exotic. Flowmaster is the most popular, and that being the case also probably your best bet. BECAUSE, if you don't like it, it'll be easier to sell it. There are 2 and 3 chamber variations, the 2 chamber is alot louder. Whoever suggested listening to other peoples setups had a good idea. Go to your local track one weekend and walk around and listen. Ask questions, most guys will be more than happy to help you out(heck you might even score yourself a good deal on some used parts).

------------------
-FISHTAIL
92GT "The Ghetto Sled"
CMPS major @ University of MD college park
Best ET/MPH thus far: 14.40/100.67mph....damn wheel spin.
VP and co-founder of CMTC www.cmntc.com

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Boss302
Gearhead

Posts: 783
From: Coleman, Wisconsin
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 09-19-2002 07:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Boss302   Click Here to Email Boss302     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
thanks for the legal help steve, i live in Marinette County (none of the listed) so that means i can eliminate the cats right? and i'm kinda leaning towards the flowmaster american thunder muff. i trust flowmaster, and you guys. AND, are 2chambers and AThunder the same thing, or can you get AT2 and 3 chamber? i've never really understood this..... thanks alot for all your help.....one more thing, with AThunder(or 2chamber)muffs, will there be any crackling on decel/downshifting? if not, or very little, i think i can live without it

[This message has been edited by Boss302 (edited 09-19-2002).]

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Gearhead
Gearhead

Posts: 1971
From: Vancouver Island, Great Wet North
Registered: Mar 2000

posted 09-19-2002 12:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gearhead   Click Here to Email Gearhead     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have the American Thunder 2-chamber set up on my 79 Pace Car with a Pacesetter H-pipe and it sure turns heads! It's definitely as loud as you would ever want it to be. My neighbors hate me already (firing up the Pace Car and my roommates modified Boss 302 clone at 6 am on Sundays to get to car shows doesn't help ). It drones a bit at 2000-2200 rpm on the highway, but I can live with it. Around town I certainly get noticed (this can be bad if the person taking notice happens to be driving a car equiped with red and blue lights on the roof and in the grill ).

Flowmasters have a raspy, raunchy sound to them that a lot of people like for a muscle car. The other set up that I considered was the Dynomax Superturbos. I had these on my 89 GT (with the cats in place) and it had a really nice deep rumble at idle and low rpms, but howled pretty good above 3500. More mellow than the Flows, but a really nice sound too. I wanted raunchy this time, so I went with the Flows. For an everyday driver or something that I was doing a lot of highway driving I'd go with the Dynomax.

Just my $0.02!

------------------
Cheers,
Ian
M&M Member #395
-------------------
'79 Mustang Indy 500 Pace Car
Ian's Pace Car Website
Vancouver Island Mustang Association Website
Indy Pace Car Registry of Mustangs Official Website

"A friend will bail you out of jail after you do something stupid... a real friend will be sitting beside you saying 'That was SO COOL!!'".

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mvendl
Gearhead

Posts: 131
From: Lowell, IN, USA
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 09-19-2002 02:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mvendl   Click Here to Email mvendl     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Boss302:
thanks for the legal help steve, i live in Marinette County (none of the listed) so that means i can eliminate the cats right?

I am not expert on Wisconsin laws, but I know they dont have emissions in all counties. Again, not being an expert, in Indiana here, we only have emissions in 4 counties, Lake, Porter and 2 downstate by Indy. In all other counties, it doesnt matter whether you have 4 cat converters, or drive around with headers/manifolds only, no pipes.

The thing that you do need to worry about would be noise pollution laws. We dont have 'em around here, but I know that in alot of towns/cities, they will fine you nicely for being "too loud" I ask myself, is there really ever such a thing as too loud?? nah, I think however there is not loud enough

jes mah 2 pennies

--mark

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Daniel Jones
Gearhead

Posts: 370
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Aug 99

posted 09-19-2002 02:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daniel Jones   Click Here to Email Daniel Jones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you plan to keep the car for awhile, consider stainless steel. The basic
choices in stainless steel cat back systems are Magnaflow, Borla, and Bassani.
If you shop around, you'll find the Magnaflow is only slightly more expensive
than the usual mild steel or aluminized cat-backs (Flowmasters, Dynomax, etc.).
Borla and Bassani are both $200+ more expensive than Magnaflow. The Ford
Motorsport catalog also shows inexpensive stainless cat back systems but they
weren't shipping the last time I checked and they didn't list one for a 1987
Mustang GT.

I run a pair of Ford Motorsport stainless steel headers, Ford Motorsport
stainless steel 2 1/4" diameter off-road pipe, and 2 1/2" Magnaflow stainless
steel cat-back (intermediate pipes, mufflers, and tailpipes). After having
lived with the sytem for a few months, I like it very much and should never
need to replace it, unlike the various non-stainless systems I've used in
the past. A few months ago, I made a post after installing the system.
I've included it below:


I fixed the leaking gas tank and finally got a chance to test drive my
'87 Mustang GT with the new exhaust system. Basically, I added a Magnaflow
stainless steel cat-back exhaust system (2 1/2" diameter, p/n 15632) to the
stainless steel Motorsport shorty headers and stainless steel off-road H-pipe
(2 1/4" diameter, no catalytic converters) already on the car. The cat-back
system replaced the original aluminized steel Ford mufflers and tailpipes
(2 1/4" diameter). The engine has 150K miles on it and the long block has
never been touched. It has underdrive pulleys, bumped timing, no intake
silencer, and K&N panel filter but is otherwise stock.

The Magnaflow kit for the '87-'93 Mustang GT's consists of several pieces.
Each side has a pipe ("flow tube") that goes from the H-pipe to the muffler,
a muffler, a tailpipe, and a turned down exhaust tip. The kit also comes
with a bunch of muffler clamps to hold everything together and new hangars
for the mufflers and tailpipes. As complete as it was, the kit did not come
with the 4 bolts that attach the flow tubes to the H-pipe or the two rubber
hangars for the exhaust tips. The instructions warn you to re-use these
parts from the original exhaust system. I was able to re-use the two rubber
hangars (though I'll probably order a new set) but I elected to replace the
bolts. For a high end DIY kit, it was annoying to leave these bits out.

The brackets for the muffler and tailpipes have no adjustment (side-to-side
or fore-and-aft). The fore-and-aft adjustment is handled by how far you
position the pipes inside the mufflers. I pushed them together as far as
possible but I still need to trim one tailpipe so the axle hop is centered
over the axle housing. The other side is centered but touched the tank
where the flange is bent up. I trimmed that off with a cut-off wheel only
to find I nicked the tank weld. The turn downs (required for the GT rear
skirt) are adjustable fore-and-aft and also in rotation by means of a bolt
and set screw (no muffler clamps required) that are not visibile once the
system is in place. The proper Allen key for the set screw was provided
with the kit.

I had several fitment issues but they may be due the exhaust location on
my car as one of my O2 sensors nearly touches the bellhousing. One of
the pipes touched the fuel line bracket so I had to reshape the pipe.
The stainless steel pipe is very strong and I had to put it in a vice
to shape it. I can usually crush a typical exhaust pipe with a big set
of channel locks but not this stuff. I ended up making the pipe oval in
cross section near the bracket for clearance.

The mufflers, pipes, and exhaust tips are all mirror finished polished
stainless steel and look too good to put underneath a car. Also, the
pipes are mandrel bent without any kinks. While the oval body muffler
case looks like a turbo style muffler, the Magnaflow mufflers in this kit
are not a turbo design reflective muffler. Instead the muffler is a
straight through design that keeps a constant diameter through the muffler
(no baffles, chambers, or area changes). There are also no louvers like
a glass pack. Instead there are holes at 90 degrees to the tube with
stainless steel packing all around.

Given the straight through design and the fact that I'm not running
catalytic convertors (convertors do a fair bit of silencing), I was
concerned the Magnaflow kit might be too loud for my daily driver. This
turned out to be a non-problem. The sound character is quite different
from a turbo muffler. It's barks at start up then settles down to a quiet
burble. The sound is very mellow and a function of load (throttle angle)
and RPM. The sound level increases until a certain RPM, then drops off
with increasing RPM. My guess is this is a resonant mode and is a function
of the pipe length (and probably cam timing). With my 3.08:1 final drive
ratio, there is a bit of cruise drone above 70 MPH or so but not too bad
(not noticeable with windows down). It does makes a nice popping and
crackling sound when backing off the throttle or downshifting. You can
modulate the sound level by small throttle angle changes. It will be
interesting to see how it sounds when I add the supercharger later this
year. I bet high compression will make the sound sharper.

The car seems stronger than before which surprised me. Given that the
H-pipe is 2 1/4 diameter and I'm still running stock heads, intake, and
cam, I wasn't expecting any sort of performance increase. Some of the
perceived performance increase may be due to the O2 sensors I replaced
at the same time but I don't think it has ever run this strong. Even
just rolling on the throttle in first gear, it will break the tires
loose easily.

Given the choice to do it over again, I'd probably still go with the
Magnaflow. I wanted stainless steel and the only current competition
is Borla and Bassani, both of which are $200+ more expensive.

Dan Jones

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Kman
Journeyman

Posts: 8
From: Meriden, Conn USA
Registered: Jul 2002

posted 09-26-2002 03:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Kman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
FWIW - I had a no cat off road pipe on my 87 LX for about 1 week. Sounded real good with the 2 chamber flows but the eye watering odor/stench comming out of the tailpipes was far worse than what comes from my 65 HiPo. I ended up going with a 2 1/2" MAC hi flow catted h pipe and am happy with the result. It fit well (Mac quality can be sporatic)and while not as loud as the off road, it is deeper than the stock 4 cat pipe at idle and IMO sounds great when on the throttle and the car passes emmisions easily.

------------------
1965 K-code coupe
1987 LX 5.0 notch

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Daniel Jones
Gearhead

Posts: 370
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Aug 99

posted 09-26-2002 07:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Daniel Jones   Click Here to Email Daniel Jones     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
>FWIW - I had a no cat off road pipe on my 87 LX for about 1 week. Sounded real
>good with the 2 chamber flows but the eye watering odor/stench comming out of
>the tailpipes was far worse than what comes from my 65 HiPo.

There must have been a problem with your air-to-fuel mixture, perhaps
the O2 sensors were bad, that the catalytic converters were masking.
Absolutely no difference in odor between my off-road pipe and converters.
My car is an '87 GT so it has the same speed-density set-up as yours.
Did you pull the ground cable and let the computer reset? Did it
oscillate for the first few seconds?

Dan Jones

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