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  Mustangsandmore Forum Archive
  '69 to '73 -- The Musclecar Mustang
  Overheating 351C

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Author Topic:   Overheating 351C
d69stang
Journeyman

Posts: 4
From: Bellmore, NY , USA
Registered: Aug 2004

posted 09-01-2004 06:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for d69stang        Reply w/Quote
Hello, first time post. I was wondering if anyone had thought on this. I have a 69 coupe with a fairly worked 351c. Car was originally a 302 car, but i have since blown that and now have the cleveland. After many years sitting in my garage i have finally restored the car. anyway, now the car runs hot.. very hot, like in about 20-25 minutes the temp guage is pinned on H and when i shut down it pukes up about a pint of antifreeze. my question is this. I have the original radiator from the 302 (20 inch) which i have had redone many moons ago(recored - 4 core). with the resto done, the water pump has been changed, all the usual suspect (thremo, rad boiled, new belts/hoses) have been updated, changed etc. I am told that the 351C should have the saddle style 24" radiator. Do i try switching over to that, or do i bite the bullet and go aluminum. Not too fond of alum looks, but i want to be able to drive the car...Yes, i do have a schroud before anyone askes... Car overheats at speed as well as in traffic....

johnmustang
Gearhead

Posts: 6748
From: British Columbia , Canada
Registered: Nov 2001

posted 09-01-2004 06:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for johnmustang        Reply w/Quote
Go aluminum, make sure nothing is plugged and check your timing.

------------------
JOHN
65 FASTBACK 2+2.....14.44 @ 107mph 1/4
87 TAURUS WAGON
03 F150 XLT SUPER CREW 4X4 SHORT BOX
Member:Vancouver Island Mustang Association
M&M #1710
65 FASTBACK
2003 F150 XLT SUPER CREW 4X4

ddenton749
unregistered
posted 09-02-2004 08:23 AM              Reply w/Quote
What exactly is 'fairly worked'? Cam, manifold, etc?

It sounds obvious but the engine shouldn't overheat with a good 4-core radiator, even 'fairly worked'. "A little" hot, maybe, but not pinning the needle on the guage. Will it overheat if it sits and idles in the driveway? Does it have the 4V heads? Are you using the 4V manifold on 2V heads? I'm reasonably sure that the coolant ports are different between the 4V and 2V and would cause a coolant restriction.

Have you tried running it without a thermostat? Can you see the coolant circulating through the radiator when the T-Stat opens? Are there air bubbles in the coolant? Have you done a compression test to rule out a leaky head gasket?

Even if I found another problem, I would probably put the correct radiator in the car (my personal preference is copper for looks). The design engineers called for the bigger radiator for more heat exchange area.

coupe3w
Gearhead

Posts: 137
From:
Registered: Mar 2004

posted 09-02-2004 12:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for coupe3w        Reply w/Quote
Clevelands have a water restrictor plate under the T-stat. Make sure you have it. Without it the car will over heat.

PS they are no longer available through Ford, but one of the Pantera vendors have them. I forget which one. I think Dan Jones knows who has them.

d69stang
Journeyman

Posts: 4
From: Bellmore, NY , USA
Registered: Aug 2004

posted 09-02-2004 08:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for d69stang        Reply w/Quote
fairly works is cam 500 lift or so, 850 holley double pump, performer mani, bored 30 over, med compression(think in the 9.5:1 ratio)roller rockers, unilite igtni, blaster coil, msd box, headers, that sort of thing(typing one handed, sleeping baby in other hand). would rather go w/the copper rad 24 inch wide. theory being anotrher 4 inches couyld do the trick(at least i think my wife would say so!) :^O

does theopry hold water or am i aluminum bound?

Hemikiller
Gearhead

Posts: 726
From: Killingworth, CT
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 09-03-2004 09:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hemikiller        Reply w/Quote
Please do check that you have the correct Cleveland thermostat. The Windsor one will fit but will cause overheating.

Countermen are famous for giving people the wrong thermostat....

Cleveland T-stat:

Windsor T-stat

[This message has been edited by Hemikiller (edited 09-03-2004).]

ddenton749
unregistered
posted 09-03-2004 11:01 AM              Reply w/Quote
I'm sure the correct radiator will help, and I would want to install it anyway. (Size DOES matter) But, my gut tells me that there is something else wrong. Pinning the Temp guage in twenty minutes sounds like no or restricted flow. Try running it without the T-Stat and look for flow in the radiator.

Did you check on the 2V/4V manifold/heads? Something tells me a 4V manifold doesn't work on 2V heads (Unless it's an aftermarket 4V manifold made for 2V heads) Maybe someone else out there knows for sure.

Hey Hemikiller, I see the pics of the T-Stats, but what exactly are the differences between the two?

65EhCode
Journeyman

Posts: 17
From:
Registered: Dec 2003

posted 09-03-2004 11:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 65EhCode        Reply w/Quote
Hemmikiller, this is getting OT, but just wondering why the windsor t-stat would cause overheating if it fits and is the correct heat range? I'm not arguing just trying to understand what happens. Thanks.

Hemikiller
Gearhead

Posts: 726
From: Killingworth, CT
Registered: Feb 2002

posted 09-03-2004 09:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Hemikiller        Reply w/Quote
The Cleveland has an internal bypass that circulates the water in the block when the t-stat is closed. When the t-stat opens, the flanged brass part of the t-stat protrudes into the restrictor plate that coupe3w mentioned, limiting the recirculation within the block.

If you use a Windsor t-stat, this recirculation continues unhampered, gradually causing the motor to get hotter and hotter. Remember, water follows the path of least resistance.

kid vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 7251
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 09-04-2004 09:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kid vishus        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ddenton749:
Did you check on the 2V/4V manifold/heads? Something tells me a 4V manifold doesn't work on 2V heads (Unless it's an aftermarket 4V manifold made for 2V heads)

Not relavent. Clevelands have a dry intake, no water flows thru them so there are no water passages to get mis-aligned. That would only cause a port mis-match and that doesn't cause overheating.

When the motor was rebuilt, were the head gaskets put on correctly? If one of them gets put on backwards, the motor will overheat very quickly (don't ask how I know, but I do know.)

Even with a small-ish radiator, the motor shouldn't overheat that quickly, it sounds like a pretty mild build.

ddenton749
unregistered
posted 09-04-2004 11:26 AM              Reply w/Quote
Oh yeah, you're right, kid. I remember now.

Thanks for the info on the T-Stat, Hemikiller. You learn something new every day! It sounds like running the 351C without a T-Stat may cause some additional problems?

I still think there is something wrong other than a slightly undersized radiator. The reversed head gasket sound plausible. It shouldn't be pegging the temp guage. Didi you ever check for flow in the radiator when the T-Stat opens? Does it overheat if you just let it sit and idle?

In 30 or so years of working on cars, I've seen this twice, once on an old chevy and once on a Caddy. The cars were overheating - no coolant circulation. It turned out that the water pump impeller was loose on the shaft. The pump shaft wasn't turning the impeller and thus no flow.

------------------
'73 Convertible, 351C 2V
'91 LX Convertible 5.0

ddenton749
unregistered
posted 09-04-2004 11:31 AM              Reply w/Quote
Hemikiller:

Now that I stare at the pictures, I can see the flange on the bottom of the brass part on the 351C T-Stat. What a great piece of info. I'm going out right now to look at the T-Stat in my 351C.

------------------
'73 Convertible, 351C 2V
'91 LX Convertible 5.0

SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 48752
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 09-04-2004 05:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere        Reply w/Quote
I have run into parts countermen that not only don't know what a Cleveland engine is, but they will argue with you that there is no difference. These days you have to know your parts better than the parts men, especially with older cars.

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 Open
'70 Mustang Convertible 250 I6/3 speed/2.79 Open
'72 Mustang Sprint Hardtop 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Loc
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip

fastford34
Gearhead

Posts: 1299
From: penna
Registered: May 2002

posted 09-04-2004 10:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for fastford34        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SteveLaRiviere:
I have run into parts countermen that not only don't know what a Cleveland engine is, but they will argue with you that there is no difference. These days you have to know your parts better than the parts men, especially with older cars.


AMEN ! this would be a LOOONG DISCUSSION all by itself!!!

------------------
34 coupe powered by 351 c 4v
keith
it`s nice to be important but more IMPORTANT to be nice.

Dad Vishus
Gearhead

Posts: 1153
From: Moscow, Iowa, USA
Registered: Dec 2001

posted 09-05-2004 09:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dad Vishus        Reply w/Quote
If you can hear water boiling in a head when its hot and not running, the head gasket is on backwards. May also suck the upper hose shut.

Don't ask me how I know this!

------------------
63 Falcon 377 Cleveland stroker Flying Toilet alchohol injection. 6.19 @ 110 MPH 1/8 mile
2002 Ranger FX4 daily driver
2000 F350 PSD Crew cab dually - Like commuting in a B52!!
98 US Cargo Phantom II 28'

7DMACH1
Gearhead

Posts: 2915
From: PHILA. PA.
Registered: Feb 2001

posted 09-05-2004 09:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 7DMACH1        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SteveLaRiviere:
I have run into parts countermen that not only don't know what a Cleveland engine is, but they will argue with you that there is no difference. These days you have to know your parts better than the parts men, especially with older cars.


DAMN PARTS GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

------------------
CRUISE NIGHT WEB SITE http://www.geocities.com/phillycruisenite/

SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 48752
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 09-06-2004 03:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 7DMACH1:
DAMN PARTS GUYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



You are a great parts guy, but you have to admit there are some in your profession that are depriving villages of their idiots.

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 Open
'70 Mustang Convertible 250 I6/3 speed/2.79 Open
'72 Mustang Sprint Hardtop 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Loc
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip

d69stang
Journeyman

Posts: 4
From: Bellmore, NY , USA
Registered: Aug 2004

posted 09-07-2004 05:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for d69stang        Reply w/Quote
ok, ran the engine in the driveway with the rad cap off and it seems as tho i have good flow. coolant sat more or less still until t-stat opened and then it seemed as tho itr was a nice flowing river going across the top, with speed increasing as i revved thus i suppose water punp is working fine and such. havent checked the t-stat to see if it was cleve or windsor as in the pic, but even tho i would sensce that it would make a marginal difference if any. and yes it did get to the H in about 25 minutes.

Mooney
Gearhead

Posts: 2357
From: Marietta, Ga
Registered: Oct 2003

posted 09-07-2004 06:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Mooney        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SteveLaRiviere:
You are a great parts guy, but you have to admit there are some in your profession that are depriving villages of their idiots.


Ahh parts guys can be useless sometimes. Most recent one, I told him I needed a waterpump for a Thunderbird.. He looks under Pontiac and tells me they don't carry thunderbird parts...
But sometimes you find a good one, there used to be an older gentleman that worked at Autozone and he knew his stuff.. now he always had to give his opinion, but man did he know his stuff!

SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 48752
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 09-07-2004 07:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere        Reply w/Quote
Just this past week I ordered some disc brake calipers and some sway bar bushings. I ordered them on a Saturday and the guy said he couldn't have them until Tuesday. I said no problem, but I won't be able to pick them up until Saturday. No problem, he says. The Saturday comes and I go to get my parts and the guy says "We send them back to the warehouse Friday night because you didn't come to pick them up." So he had to order them again so I could pick them up on Saturday. This time I called them on Friday to make sure they didn't send them back.

At least they gave me the 'bonehead discount' I asked them for.

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 Open
'70 Mustang Convertible 250 I6/3 speed/2.79 Open
'72 Mustang Sprint Hardtop 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Loc
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip

[This message has been edited by SteveLaRiviere (edited 09-07-2004).]

jslebod1
Journeyman

Posts: 3
From: Ferndale, MI, USA
Registered: Sep 2004

posted 09-07-2004 10:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jslebod1        Reply w/Quote
I'm keyed in on this post, D69stang. I hope you are able to get to the root cause. I've got a '65 fastback 289(originally 2V) that has same problem. Have been through thermostat, water pump, new rad, electric fan, checked timing, no luck. One item I saw mentioned earlier in this post, I've put an Edelbrock intake on the engine which is sized for a 4V carb. Is it possible the coolant ports could be winking and not fully aligned? I'm pretty convinced I've got something blocked internally as well, has anybody ever heard of a way to check coolant flow rate?

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