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  Am I Overly Anal Regarding FORD Origionality?

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Author Topic:   Am I Overly Anal Regarding FORD Origionality?
KULTULZ
Gearhead

Posts: 959
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 09-14-2006 08:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ        Reply w/Quote
I have a good friend that is heavily into 1957 FORD. He also enjoys the ride and handling characteristics of a previously owned 1984 MARK VII. So a few years ago, he got this brainstorm of grafting a 1983 CONTINENTAL engine/suspension cradle onto the front of an almost perfect 1957 CUSTOM 300. Thatís correct, he reverted a 1957 FORD to MacPherson strut (ruining the original frame in the process constructing front clip)). Most perform the opposite (it is a quick source for disc and rack but at the price of a decent front suspension).

Anyways, he did the frame modification a number of years ago and I guess (like myself) felt his biological clock ticking and decided he needed to complete the transformation. For the money to finish it (now he did not have that far to go as he had mounted a 351C and F/4/S and all that would have been required is some clean up on the frame and a little body prep as the body was almost cherry and a quick go through of the engine). He had a 1957 FAIRLANE SEDAN in storage that was a factory E-CODE (312-8V) car. The value of the car was approximately $30,000. He sold it outright to a collector for half the value to get the fast cash to finish this abomination.

He then decides to part out his present 1994 MARK VIII for the DOHC modular engine and trans (for the drivability of EFI) (he wants the original ride/handling of the MARK VII although that was on air-ride and the CONT is springed). His reasoning is now he is going to get the ride of the MARK on a 1957 frame. He mounts the engine/trans assembly and begins to go through the suspension/steering. Now mind you, an 82/83 CONT cradle is unique to FOX (also used on 84/86 SVO MUSTANG) as it has special geometry and lower control arms, they are no longer available for service and the FORD RACING M-3705-A control arm kit will not work without a whole lot of interchange. So he calls FORD RACING TECH, and they are aware of the problem and advise there is a company in CA that can rebuild this style of arm as they purchased a special tooling fixture and a supply of the original ball joints for $400.00 an arm!

Previously, he had decided he also wanted rear disc brakes. He had scrapped the 83 CONT rear that had the discs that can easily be converted to the original 57 rear housing. He and his son decide to buy a changeover kit for $1000.00 that uses all GM components. When you lift the hood, you will see a huge DELCO-MORON master cylinder staring at you.

He wants to use the bucket seats/center console from the MARK VIII. The console is made to specially fit the MARK only but he feels he can adapt it to the 57 dash with a little custom woodwork. And he keeps mentioning installing rear MERCEDES seats to give it the appearance/feel of the SQUAREBIRD rear seat interior. And I am sure he will use a GM tilt column as he has gone this far, so why not?

Am I little anal on my appreciation of FORD ONLY TECHNOLOGY? Should he also install a SBC to complete the conversion?

BEWILDERED IN MARYLAND-

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Am Looking For Factory/Aftermarket Speed Parts For The MEL (MERC-EDSEL-LINC-TBIRD) Engine Family (383-410-430-462) Produced From 1958 To 1968

Also Early FORD Special Service Tools

-Mercury-Edsel-Lincoln- Forum-

Whitson
Gearhead

Posts: 290
From: Western Canada
Registered: Dec 2005

posted 09-14-2006 10:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Whitson        Reply w/Quote
You should have slapped him hard and taken the car away while he was still in the planning stages.
That's a horror story, not a build.

When you said anal over originality I was thinking paint scheme or something like that.....not frankinstein's monster.

BTW, I love 57/58 Fords and I hate to see one that's not wearing an original 2-tone paint scheme. Is that anal enough for ya?

KULTULZ
Gearhead

Posts: 959
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 09-14-2006 10:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Whitson:

You should have slapped him hard and taken the car away while he was still in the planning stages.

That's a horror story, not a build.


Well...I should have mentioned he hails from WV, and still has family down there. Whenever he comes back from a visit, he will have a new idea.

(He also has a nice 57 RANCHERO he is getting wild ideas about)

quote:
When you said anal over originality I was thinking paint scheme or something like that.....not frankinstein's monster.

I am glad I am not alone. Prior to this, he was fairly stable. If you could see the subframe graft onto the origional frame with fishplates big enough for a tractor-trailer frame...Large piping to accept the strut mounts (he thinks it looks NASCAR)

quote:
BTW, I love 57/58 Fords and I hate to see one that's not wearing an original 2-tone paint scheme. Is that anal enough for ya?

Agreed. This is getting PORSHE RED at a cost of $650.00 a gallon.

At least the body will remain stock (damn good body man), and will have steel wheels with OEM center caps (raised white letter tires-JAP GOODRICH-MADE IN MEXICO).

It just will be when you open the hood or look into the interior that the shock will hit you.

Oh...Did I tell you about the 66 MUST fuel tank he cut the trunk pan out to fit?

I might chip in for a set of personalized tags;

FRNKN57

Excuse me. I feel dirty. Think I will shower...

[This message has been edited by KULTULZ (edited 09-14-2006).]

Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 3237
From: Stanton, Michigan, zip 48888
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 09-14-2006 11:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke        Reply w/Quote
Lest we not forget the immortal saying, "Beauty is in the Eye of the Beholder".

As we age and gather experience, most of us develop an opinion on how to do - EVERYTHING - and I'm SURE you've already told your friend what you think of his idea(s) with his '57. So, I'm guessing he is well aware of YOUR opinion and YET he STILL continues on to move in HIS direction. Now you can choose to either assist your friend in what he's trying to do or step back and let him struggle on alone; either way, don't let it effect your friendship.

When I'm in a friendship, I feel it's my responsibility as a friend to voice my opinion, when discussing a situation or upcoming task. But I must remember that it's ultimately their decision as to what/which way he/she decides to go. Then I can choose to be supportive or step away from their decision...but I shouldn't step away from still being a friend. When it comes to what is 'right & good' for our friends we all should remind ourselves, what? IT'S THEIR DECISION TO MAKE.

We meet many folks over the course of our lifetime, but for many of us we can count our current "good friends" on one hand...

Just my 2 cents,
Ryan

honeyburst
Gearhead

Posts: 846
From: Nashville, TN, USA
Registered: Mar 2006

posted 09-14-2006 11:16 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for honeyburst        Reply w/Quote
while I agree with what you were all saying.....I have to add my .02.....

I've done a few "restorations" thus far in my 38 years (39 in a couple of weeks )...and I've never done a full "concourse" restoration. I always stick with the three D's......DRIVEABLE, DEPENDABLE, DURABLE. So I've changed a lot of stuff that a lot of people wouldn't agree with (ex: currently working on an all original, one owner, 72K mile 1965 "A" Code coupe....I'm pulling the carb and intake, putting on a Holly carb w/ Edlebrock intake, changing the color from white to gold, interior from blue to black, shelby hood scoop, etc).....

I guess the point I'm trying to make is what's the point of having a cool, classic ride if you can't do it the way YOU want to. There are hundreds of restored 57's out there....but how many have his mods....that he's apparently done himself.....when he pulls into a cruise-in and people start asking about his car.....with pride, he can say I did this and that......it's unusual, original, and he made it "his own"......
JMHO.......

(oh, btw, my 1973 convertible was painted 2003 Porche Guards Red w/ black striping )

------------------
Without life there could be no music, but without music, there can be no life.
1973 Convertible, 1965 A Code 4spd coupe, Past: 1969 GT, 1967 6cyl coupe, 1968 coupe
Two Rivers Ford, Parts Dept., Nashville, TN
www.geocities.com/littlewhitecoupe
www.geocities.com/jezebeldream
www.geocities.com/my73conv

Whitson
Gearhead

Posts: 290
From: Western Canada
Registered: Dec 2005

posted 09-14-2006 11:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Whitson        Reply w/Quote
I'm not against custom cars at all. I could look at the 56 Vic on the top of this section all day long, every day of the week. It takes my breath away.

But somewhere out there is a line you cross when building a car. The line between "cool" and "OMFG what have you done?" gets blurry at times I guess.

Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 3237
From: Stanton, Michigan, zip 48888
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 09-14-2006 12:08 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Whitson:
I'm not against custom cars at all. I could look at the 56 Vic on the top of this section all day long, every day of the week. It takes my breath away.

But somewhere out there is a line you cross when building a car. The line between "cool" and "OMFG what have you done?" gets blurry at times I guess.


I agree with your statement regarding the '56 pictured above and that there is a "line" out there.

One of the points I was trying to stress was that the "line" is just our own opinion. Sometimes many folks agree with us as to where the line is, sometimes no one agrees with about the location of the "line".

...Enuff said. Let's get back to talking 'bout old Fords & Mercs!

KK,
How about grabbing some pics of your friends "57 Cruiser Project" and post them here so we all can get a look at how some folks build 'em in Maryland?

Ryan

KULTULZ
Gearhead

Posts: 959
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 09-14-2006 12:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ryan Wilke:

KK,

How about grabbing some pics of your friends "57 Cruiser Project" and post them here so we all can get a look at how some folks build 'em in Maryland?

Ryan


I also agree with Freedom of Expression but not when it entails the destruction of very rare iron (now this 57 was almost rust/tamper free and he has enough spare parts to build at least another one).

As for photos, the frame is due back from powdercoating and I will try to get some. I hope the lens filter will not become damaged by all the GM parts...

Those who have never seem a FOX cradle welded to a 57 FORD frame needs to see this.

IT LIVES!

Whitson
Gearhead

Posts: 290
From: Western Canada
Registered: Dec 2005

posted 09-14-2006 02:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Whitson        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KULTULZ:
I hope the lens filter will not become damaged by all the GM parts...

[b]IT LIVES!

[/B]


Maybe the problem is the use of the GM parts. It's a pride thing.

I drive a Mark 8 so I can see where he's coming from in wanting that kind of comfort & power for his "Ultimate 57 Ford". I get confused just thinking about where to draw the line and the more I think about it, the more blured the line becomes. Why didn't he just use the Mark 8's independant rear suspension and disc brakes?

Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 3237
From: Stanton, Michigan, zip 48888
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 09-14-2006 02:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KULTULZ:
I also agree with Freedom of Expression but not when it entails the destruction of very rare iron....

--- I've had that very same discussion numerous times with another friend of mine, however, it always involved the modification of old & rare Harley motorcycles. "To modify or Restore", the long fought fight. I've tried to convince him that even the most ugly (to some eyes) rebuilt Kustom bike (or car) was still better than letting it sit behind some barn to rust & rot into the dirt! Most of us can recall one or three such examples of those,,,, and all that can be said for those is, "What a Shame!" For those here that can't ever recall such a waste, look here: http://www.carsinbarns.com/


As for photos, the frame is due back from powdercoating and I will try to get some.

-- Cool, I look forward to them.


I hope the lens filter will not become damaged by all the GM parts...

--- Be Brave, KK, I dare to say that I doubt your camera will experience any damage from the exposure.


KULTULZ
Gearhead

Posts: 959
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 09-14-2006 02:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Whitson:

I drive a Mark 8 so I can see where he's coming from in wanting that kind of comfort & power for his "Ultimate 57 Ford". I get confused just thinking about where to draw the line and the more I think about it, the more blured the line becomes. Why didn't he just use the Mark 8's independant rear suspension and disc brakes?


Well, he wasn't as happy with the ride of the VIII as he was the VII. That is what he is trying to duplicate without the benefit of air-ride. He is of the belief that just grafting the 83 CONT front suspension to a 57 FORD frame is going to result in a luxurious ride (and he started this process before he aquired the VIII. He was still driving the VII. He loaned the VII to his son for personal use and it was totalled).

On the IRS, he was concerned with having to narrow the rear stub shafts. The use of the VIII discs, change of wheel bolt pattern and fear 15" steel wheels would not fit over the calipers (now the car had all new brakes and 16" GOODYEARS).

I have suggested parting out the remainder of the VIII to gain back some of the loss (approx. $3000.000 book) but doubt he has the patience for it.

Now remember, I am not with him at all times. He gets these crazy theories from somewheres besides myself...

KULTULZ
Gearhead

Posts: 959
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 09-14-2006 02:58 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ryan Wilke:

--- I've had that very same discussion numerous times with another friend of mine, however, it always involved the modification of old & rare Harley motorcycles. "To modify or Restore", the long fought fight. I've tried to convince him that even the most ugly (to some eyes) rebuilt Kustom bike (or car) was still better than letting it sit behind some barn to rust & rot into the dirt!


You don't understand. I forgot where he came across this particular 57, but it could have been restored to spec without a lot of money. The thing was almost perfect.

He had already mounted a 351c and 4/S before getting this crazy idea.

I think I have read somewheres in THE TEN COMMANDMENTS or our BILL OF RIGHTS where this type of activity is just not permitted...

Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 3237
From: Stanton, Michigan, zip 48888
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 09-14-2006 03:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KULTULZ:
You don't understand. I forgot where he came across this particular 57, but it could have been restored to spec without a lot of money. The thing was almost perfect.

--- Ah, but I do understand; and I also agree with you in that I wouldn't do that to it either. But it's HIS DECISION.
As I've told my bike friend before, "Why don't you buy it from him and save it from what he plans to do with it?"


I think I have read somewheres in THE TEN COMMANDMENTS or our BILL OF RIGHTS where this type of activity is just not permitted...

--- LOL! Yep, I'm sure it's in there somewhere.


KULTULZ
Gearhead

Posts: 959
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 09-23-2006 03:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ        Reply w/Quote
ANOTHER FRNKN57...

-FULL OBITUARY HERE-

------------------
Am Looking For Factory/Aftermarket Speed Parts For The MEL (MERC-EDSEL-LINC-TBIRD) Engine Family (383-410-430-462) Produced From 1958 To 1968

Also Early FORD Special Service Tools

-Mercury-Edsel-Lincoln- Forum-

[This message has been edited by KULTULZ (edited 09-23-2006).]

TomP
Gearhead

Posts: 6376
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99

posted 09-29-2006 12:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for TomP        Reply w/Quote
Struts are sure a bad swap for a full frame car like the 57. I doubt there'll be much difference in ride.

TomP
Gearhead

Posts: 6376
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99

posted 09-29-2006 12:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for TomP        Reply w/Quote
That DELCO-MORON master cylinder is another pet peeve of mine. It just sticks out like a sore thumb when you open the hood. Quite a few add a DUI distributor and Delco alternator to complete the transformation.

SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 48752
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 09-29-2006 08:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere        Reply w/Quote
Keep your Fords all Ford and your sex partners all women!

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '70 Mustang Convertible - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150 XL

BattlestarOne
Gearhead

Posts: 295
From: Gettysburg PA USA
Registered: Dec 2004

posted 09-29-2006 09:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for BattlestarOne        Reply w/Quote
BattlestarOne
quote:
Originally posted by SteveLaRiviere:
Keep your Fords all Ford and your sex partners all women!


That is unless you're a Woman Ford Owner....then it's okay to use just a few GM parts.....

KULTULZ
Gearhead

Posts: 959
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 09-30-2006 06:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TomP:

That DELCO-MORON master cylinder is another pet peeve of mine. It just sticks out like a sore thumb when you open the hood. Quite a few add a DUI distributor and Delco alternator to complete the transformation.


AGREED!

It has to be the infamous one-wire DELCO ALT now and with a INTERSTATE battery installed also.

When he first came up with this strut idea, I thought he had gotten hold of another green Schlitz, but I'll be damned if he didn't do it. Now he wants to trim the engine compartment out in stainless...

...and people ask me why I drink...

------------------
Am Looking For Factory/Aftermarket Speed Parts For The MEL (MERC-EDSEL-LINC-TBIRD) Engine Family (383-410-430-462) Produced From 1958 To 1968

Also Early FORD Special Service Tools

-Mercury-Edsel-Lincoln- Forum-

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