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  Highway Speeds With A Y

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Author Topic:   Highway Speeds With A Y
KULTULZ
Gearhead

Posts: 959
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 01-26-2004 08:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ        Reply w/Quote
-AOD Y-BLOCK Transmission Adapter-

This adapter kit will allow you to bolt ANY small block Ford transmission to these motors! C4, C6, AOD, E4OD, T5 manual trans, etc.

------------------
I am looking for information concerning factory performance/aftermarket speed parts (1958/1960) used on the MEL (Mercury-Edsel-Lincoln) (Also Thunderbird 59/60) Engine Series (383-410-430-462) produced from 1958 thru 1968.

Also older FORD Special Service Tools

-MEL Engine Forum-

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-26-2004 08:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker        Reply w/Quote
Nice looking stuff, but a bit on the pricey side in my estimation.
One thing that I don't particulary care for is his statement that an FMX is a superior transmission to the C-4. That is an absolutly erroneous statement. FMX is an old tire turd of a transmission that was engineered by Borg Warner in the 50's. It served it's purpose, but if it was that good, FoMoCo would have continued to produce it. Very heavy and very awkward. It's only real attribute is the ability to service it without removing the torque converter.
Just my fairly knowledgeable $.02 anyway.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

KULTULZ
Gearhead

Posts: 959
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 01-26-2004 09:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ        Reply w/Quote
The FMX was introduced in 1968 and was a FORD design. THE AOD was copied off of it basically.

I think (sometimes) that you are thinking of the FORD-O-MATIC which was derived from GM design.

But if it was so awkward, why was the LINCOLN version used behind the automatic class THUNDERBOLTS?

The FMX is a good street trans in addition to the C4/C6.

You young guys just don't appreciate what FOMOCO has done for you all of these years...

------------------
I am looking for information concerning factory performance/aftermarket speed parts (1958/1960) used on the MEL (Mercury-Edsel-Lincoln) (Also Thunderbird 59/60) Engine Series (383-410-430-462) produced from 1958 thru 1968.

Also older FORD Special Service Tools

-MEL Engine Forum-

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-26-2004 10:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker        Reply w/Quote
Gary, Gary, Gary, you obviously never did any FoMoCo automatic transmission work have you?

FMX and Ford-o-Matic is the same sh*t basically. Take one apart sometime. There are some variances along the years, but 90% of the hard and soft parts will interchange. I have a date coded 1965 FMX out of a 352 Galaxie sitiing behind our shop waiting to be junked.
By the way, FoMoCo bought all of the rights and patents for the iron piece of crap from BW in 1967 when BW went to aluminum automatic trans production exclusivly for AMC and imports like Jaguar, Rover, and others.


Cast iron case with a 4 bolt separate bell housing.

C-4 cores are getting very expensive and difficult to find. Ask any trans shop or core supplier.
FXM cores are worthless and can be bought by the pallet for $10 each or less. FACT! That's how JPT buys them.
Hard and soft transmission parts suppliers can't give away FMX kits and parts.
About $.10 on the dollar or less WHOLESALE!
As I said, they served their purpose as a cheap unit for heavy low performance cars.
If they were so good why did FoMoCo engineer the C-6?

The T-bolts were built in 1964.
In case you forgot, the C-6 wasn't introduced until 1966 modle year.
(I know you are just busting my balls)
If FoMoCo had a C-6 in 1964 it would have been in the T-Bolts.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

KULTULZ
Gearhead

Posts: 959
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 01-26-2004 11:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ        Reply w/Quote
Well...That's the nice thing about opinions...

They are just like a$$holes and everyone has one. I didn't say the design was superior to any other design. My point is that they are in a lot of older sixties/early seventies cars and should not be discarded because some think it is an inferior design.

The way some of us see the hobby is vastly different from your view(s). I posted the information for someone with an older model that might want to upgrade to a later transmission. Excuse me if I stepped on your toes.

You retaining water this week or something?

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-27-2004 12:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker        Reply w/Quote
I HATE SNOW!!!!!!!

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

KULTULZ
Gearhead

Posts: 959
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 01-27-2004 12:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:

I HATE SNOW!!!!!!!


That's too bad. I was going to ask you to go out back and brush the snow off the 65 tranny and see if it isn't a Cruise-O-Matic...

quote:
I have a date coded 1965 FMX out of a 352 Galaxie sitiing behind our shop waiting to be junked.


Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 01-27-2004 09:40 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KULTULZ:
Well...That's the nice thing about opinions...

They are just like a$$holes and everyone has one. I didn't say the design was superior to any other design.


I never said you did Gary. I know that you are way smarter than that.

The guys selling the adapters did.
Quote below.
I can say that the Ford cast Iron transmission ( with modifications ) is a far better transmission than the C4. The only advantage the C4 has is that it is smaller and lighter. Switching to a C4 transmission seems like nothing more than an expensive lateral move. Do yourself a favor and reduce your engine RPM's. Your motor will reward you by lasting twice as long. The gear ratio's in the AOD are also much better than the C4 trans.


PS. I HATE SNOW!

<font size=1> back to shoveling </font size>

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

Darkman270
Journeyman

Posts: 18
From: Pensacola Florida
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 03-04-2004 11:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Darkman270        Reply w/Quote
FMX

They are Old, Heavy, Dependable, Cheap to build, Don't require adapters and capable of propelling old heavy Fords into the 11 second range. I don't have a problem with that. Hurricane runs his all season with no problems. Seems to me the FMX has a lot going for it.

------------------
Charles in Pensacola Fl.

Restomodding at the speed of a slow sick snail!!!

1957 F100 312 auto with OEM57 McCulloch supercharger
1970 Mach 1 351C 4 spd
1969 Mach 1 428 CJ auto

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 03-05-2004 12:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker        Reply w/Quote
Wanna buy one?

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

KULTULZ
Gearhead

Posts: 959
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 03-05-2004 01:56 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ        Reply w/Quote
Another little known factoid is the ability to retrofit a later stronger FMX to a FOM or Cruise-O-Matic. You merely use the earlier input shaft and pump and you have a much stronger and more easily modified transmission. Great for bringing Y-BLOCKS and FE's up to date.

KULTULZ
Gearhead

Posts: 959
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 09-29-2004 12:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ        Reply w/Quote
FORD-O-MATIC/CRUISE-O-MATIC/TWIN-TURBO Progression

This is a brief history of the FOM (designed by Borg-Warner) and its design progression. Also lubricant call-out and useage is covered.

The GM HYRA-MATIC (four speed direct) was used by LINCOLN from 49/54 at which time they used a MERC-O-MATIC (second gear start 3/S) until LINC received it's own dedicated transmission (Twin-Turbo) in mid 1958 production.

FORD used TYPE A trans fluid from 1949 until JAN 59.

FORD went to TYPE A SUFFIX A at that time (JAN 59-called out in TSB).

FORD redesigned the FOM in 1958 to be a dual range transmission. This was the CRUISE-O-MATIC. It also retained the 3/S FOM/MOM (2nd gear start) for economy/base model useage (other than LINC).

FORD introduced the F/M/2 in 1959 which was a true two-speed trans. It was in an aluminum case with integral bell. This was designed for the upcoming economy cars in the 1960 FORD/MERC model run. It was also a running replacement in some economy applications that were using the old 3/S FOM. The EDSEL MILE-O-MATIC was a true two speed.

1961 is the pivotal year as this is where FORD dropped the FOM entirely and everything went COM (Dual Range). It went from throttle valve shift control to a vacuum modulator valve shift control.

It seems the 1961 model year is going to be the first to call out ATF Spec M2C33.

The F/M/2 was replaced by the C4 in 1964.

Introduction of the C6 in 1966 and the first place it shows up is LINC. The TWIN-TURBO COM is deleted. The FX and MX were retained for some FORD-MERC applications alongside the C4/C6.

The COM was redesigned again (made lighter and stronger) in 1967 and was dubbed the FMX, coinciding with the introduction of ATF Spec M2C33-F (F being FORD M being MERC [combination] X being dual range). TYPE F fluid was called out for service backfill for all Spec M2C33 (1961)

FORD made a running change starting in the mid-seventies to DEXRON (GM Trade Name) as they (FORD) changed their friction materials due mainly to enviromental concerns (refer to FORD TSB 01-15-7-)

Fordomatic (Cast Iron Case) 1951-1967

Edsel......Mile-O-Matic
Ford.......Ford-O-Matic...Cruise-O-Matic
Lincoln....Turbo-Drive...(Hydramatic 50-54)
Mercury....Merc-O-Matic

Turnpike Cruiser puts every driving motion at your fingertips.

quote:
Here is a control so automatic that it makes ordinary push-button driving seem old-fashioned. With this amazing system - exclusive with Mercury - a touch of your finger starts the engine, controls neutral, drive, low, reverse, locks the car in gear for parking, even releases the parking brake. Control keys are back-lighted for night driving. Merc-O-Matic Drive with Keyboard Control is standard on Turnpike Cruisers.


-Corrections Are Invited-

------------------
I am looking for information concerning factory performance/aftermarket speed parts (1958/1960) used on the MEL (Mercury-Edsel-Lincoln) (Also Thunderbird 59/60) Engine Series (383-410-430-462) produced from 1958 thru 1968.

Also older FORD Special Service Tools

-MEL Engine Forum-

KULTULZ
Gearhead

Posts: 959
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 06-28-2006 04:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:

I have a date coded 1965 FMX out of a 352 Galaxie sitiing behind our shop waiting to be junked.

I HATE SNOW!!!!!!!


quote:
Origional comeback by KULTULZ:

That's too bad. I was going to ask you to go out back and brush the snow off the 65 tranny and see if it isn't a Cruise-O-Matic...


Snow melted yet? I bet that GENUINE DATE CODED 1965 FMX is worth big bucks seeing as it must be factory experimental...


------------------
Am Looking For Factory/Aftermarket Speed Parts For The MEL (MERC-EDSEL-LINC-TBIRD) Engine Family (383-410-430-462) Produced From 1958 To 1968

Also Early FORD Special Service Tools

-Mercury-Edsel-Lincoln- Forum-

Whitson
Gearhead

Posts: 290
From: Western Canada
Registered: Dec 2005

posted 06-28-2006 05:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Whitson        Reply w/Quote
Looking though the FMX parts list, I see a great number of part numbers starting with C0's, C2's, C3's and B8's. There's even a B1 in there.
The rear band for an FMX is B5SZ-7A176-B for example.

That tells me the FMX is just a cast iron cruise-o-matic with an updated valve body.
(valve body parts are all D5 stuff)

KULTULZ
Gearhead

Posts: 959
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 06-29-2006 05:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Whitson:

That tells me the FMX is just a cast iron cruise-o-matic with an updated valve body.
(valve body parts are all D5 stuff)


It is just a little more complicated than that. THE FMX is the culmination of design progression from the origional FORD-O-MATIC.

It basically consists of the MERC-O-MATIC (heavier-stronger) being put into the smaller FX main case with an updated SELECT-SHIFT valve body.

Very tough transmission.

Calling a 65 COM an FMX is like calling a 1968 302 a 1988 5.0L. Little different technology.

------------------
Am Looking For Factory/Aftermarket Speed Parts For The MEL (MERC-EDSEL-LINC-TBIRD) Engine Family (383-410-430-462) Produced From 1958 To 1968

Also Early FORD Special Service Tools

-Mercury-Edsel-Lincoln- Forum-

Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 29200
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 07-05-2006 09:00 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker        Reply w/Quote
Merc-o-Matic, Ford-o-Matic, Cruise-o-Matic.
C'mon Gary, the nomenclature aside, you know what I meant.

Cast iron case three speed.
They were all B/W design anyway.
Wanna argue that one?


By the way, how come FoMoCo called C-4's Cruise-o-Matic's also in 1965 and 66?

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,'04 &'05
First NHRA & IHRA 289 automatic Superstock Mustang in the TENS 06-99
First SS/MA in the TENS 04-03
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

KULTULZ
Gearhead

Posts: 959
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 07-06-2006 02:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:

Merc-o-Matic, Ford-o-Matic, Cruise-o-Matic.

C'mon Gary, the nomenclature aside, you know what I meant.

Cast iron case three speed. They were all B/W design anyway.

Wanna argue that one?


By the way, how come FoMoCo called C-4's Cruise-o-Matic's also in 1965 and 66?


There is a difference in a FORD-O-MATIC, MERC-O-MATIC and a Turbo-Drive. There is a difference in the CRUISE-O-MATIC, F/M/2 and the FMX. You cannot group them all in the same bag. Differing designs for differing applications.

CRUISE-O-MATIC was an advertising term. It was used to describe the COM, C4, C6 and FMX over the years.

When can I expect that pizza?

------------------
Am Looking For Factory/Aftermarket Speed Parts For The MEL (MERC-EDSEL-LINC-TBIRD) Engine Family (383-410-430-462) Produced From 1958 To 1968

Also Early FORD Special Service Tools

-Mercury-Edsel-Lincoln- Forum-

Gerry
Journeyman

Posts: 67
From: Niagara Falls, ON
Registered: Jan 2003

posted 07-06-2006 01:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gerry        Reply w/Quote
Here is good reason to run an FMX if you want to save some HP.

HP POWER LOSS

GM
PG 18 hp
TH-350 36 hp
TH-400 44 hp

FORD
C 6 55-60 hp
C 4 28 hp
FMX 25 hp

Chrysler
A904 25 hp
727 45 hp

KULTULZ
Gearhead

Posts: 959
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 07-06-2006 04:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ        Reply w/Quote
Thanx for that info!

[email protected]
Gearhead

Posts: 998
From: Lakewood, CO, USA
Registered: Jun 2001

posted 07-07-2006 04:14 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for JCQuinn@work        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gerry:
Here is good reason to run an FMX if you want to save some HP.

HP POWER LOSS

GM
PG 18 hp
TH-350 36 hp
TH-400 44 hp

FORD
C 6 55-60 hp
C 4 28 hp
FMX 25 hp

Chrysler
A904 25 hp
727 45 hp



Where does this information come from?

John

Whitson
Gearhead

Posts: 290
From: Western Canada
Registered: Dec 2005

posted 07-07-2006 04:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Whitson        Reply w/Quote
Looking at those numbers, I'd still run a C4 because it only gives up 3hp and saves you 200lbs over an FMX.

Not to mention the weight you'll save on sheet metal by not having to enlarge your transmission tunnel.

[This message has been edited by Whitson (edited 07-07-2006).]

KULTULZ
Gearhead

Posts: 959
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 07-08-2006 04:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Whitson:

Looking at those numbers, I'd still run a C4 because it only gives up 3hp and saves you 200lbs over an FMX.


quote:
Transmission Weights
--------------------
AOD (without converter or fluid) - 150 lbs
AOD stock torque converter - 34 lbs

C4 (without converter or fluid) - 110 lbs
C4 torque converter - ? lbs

C6 (without converter or fluid) - 140 lbs
C6 torque converter - 30 lbs small block- 31 lbs big block

FMX (without torque converter, unknown fluid level) - 160 lbs
FMX torque converter - 32 lbs

Ford-o-Matic (pre-FMX), cast iron case - 228 lbs


Now the above are not scientific but measured off bathroom scales. The FMX is only approx. 50# heavier, but also can be(was) used behind FE's.

Hopefully the HP loss chart from above was done on a chassis dyno.

The FOM, FX and FMX are still useful for older cars that old farts like me drive. So let's get rid of the old wive's tales.

------------------
Am Looking For Factory/Aftermarket Speed Parts For The MEL (MERC-EDSEL-LINC-TBIRD) Engine Family (383-410-430-462) Produced From 1958 To 1968

Also Early FORD Special Service Tools

-Mercury-Edsel-Lincoln- Forum-

SteveLaRiviere
Administrator

Posts: 48752
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99

posted 07-08-2006 01:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere        Reply w/Quote
The only transmissions I had fail were C4s. My FMXs are going back in my cars.

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 - '70 Mustang Convertible - '72 Mustang Sprint - '94 F-150 XL

Gerry
Journeyman

Posts: 67
From: Niagara Falls, ON
Registered: Jan 2003

posted 07-10-2006 08:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Gerry        Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by [email protected]:

Where does this information come from?

John


I found it on the Ford Transmission Forum.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/260730/thread/1151543619/Fully+rollerized+C6+question

I don't know where it came from before that.

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