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Author Topic:   Y-block F.I.
70SportsRoof
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Posts: 1013
From: Orange County, CA
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posted 09-19-2003 11:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 70SportsRoof   Click Here to Email 70SportsRoof     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Anybody know if there is anybody making fuel injection setups for 312 Y-blocks? Been thinking of maybe injecting the 312 in my '57.

------------------
Gary M.
1946 Ford pickup
1946 Ford pickup
1957 Ford FL 500 Twn Vic
1970 Mustang SportsRoof

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jsracingbbf
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From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
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posted 09-19-2003 11:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for jsracingbbf   Click Here to Email jsracingbbf     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
if you have a carb on it now you can easily convert to EFI. I've been thinking about it for my race car. the indy cars run this same type.
try these guys,
http://force-efi.com/

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JS
69 Mustang Pro ET Drag

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70SportsRoof
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From: Orange County, CA
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posted 09-20-2003 01:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for 70SportsRoof   Click Here to Email 70SportsRoof     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
hmm...looks interesting...I'll look into it...yeah, the car has the carb still, stock cast iron 4 barrel intake with Holley carb

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Gary M.
1946 Ford pickup
1946 Ford pickup
1957 Ford FL 500 Twn Vic
1970 Mustang SportsRoof

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KULTULZ
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From: Rockville, MD
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posted 09-21-2003 09:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ   Click Here to Email KULTULZ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Easiest (and cheapest) method to convert an older engine to fuel injection is with TBI. HOLLEY makes a system but the best (I think) is from Barry Grant.

-Computer Managed Venturi Fuel Injection (VFI)-

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I am looking for information concerning factory performance/aftermarket speed parts (1958/1960) used on the MEL (Mercury-Edsel-Lincoln) (Also Thunderbird 59/60) Engine Series (383-410-430-462) produced from 1958 thru 1968.

Also older FORD Special Service Tools

-MEL Engine Forum-

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KULTULZ
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From: Rockville, MD
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posted 01-15-2004 02:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ   Click Here to Email KULTULZ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You couldn't run multi-point EFI on a FORD Y-BLOCK as the intake runners are over and under. How would you get the injector bungs put in?

Multi-point would have to be fabbed off an old HILLBORN Inj Manifold like this SBC example.

Before;

After;

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Bob Hopkins
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From: BRIDGEPORT NJ USA
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posted 01-22-2004 04:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob Hopkins   Click Here to Email Bob Hopkins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm gonna try this a 3rd time
Why are you posting them ugly foreign intakes here picts like that shouls be barred you need picts like this
http://www.ford-y-block.com/enginepics.htm
scroll down to the single plane that would be easy to make fuel injected and they do make hillborn for Y-blocks too but the prices will kill you

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KULTULZ
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posted 01-22-2004 06:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ   Click Here to Email KULTULZ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Hopkins:

I'm gonna try this a 3rd time


OK...

quote:
Why are you posting them ugly foreign intakes here picts like that shouls be barred you need picts like this scroll down to the single plane that would be easy to make fuel injected and they do make hillborn for Y-blocks too but the prices will kill you

I posted the illustrations to show how a HILLBORN setup could look after fabrication. An engine is an engine and technology can be learned and shared from all manufacturers.

This intake seems to me to be a custom made tunnel ram. It would take a good man to fabricate a nice looking set of fuel rails for it. I think this system suggested would also be expensive, not to mention the fabrication the hood would need.

Can't we all just get along?

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KULTULZ
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posted 01-22-2004 06:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ   Click Here to Email KULTULZ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
BTW...

The valley pan cover they have on that build sucks.

But I do see one thing...If a man was a good fabricator, it wouldn't be that difficult to make a similiar intake with reduced runner length to accept injector bungs.

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I am looking for information concerning factory performance/aftermarket speed parts (1958/1960) used on the MEL (Mercury-Edsel-Lincoln) (Also Thunderbird 59/60) Engine Series (383-410-430-462) produced from 1958 thru 1968.

Also older FORD Special Service Tools

-MEL Engine Forum-

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Moneymaker
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posted 01-22-2004 06:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Why couldn't you use an old Man-a-Fre, Weiand, or Edlebrock 4x2 or 6x2 intake as a base line intake to adapt EFI?

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Alex Denysenko
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Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
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KULTULZ
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posted 01-22-2004 09:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ   Click Here to Email KULTULZ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The problem is on the FORD Y-Block, the intake runners are siamesed, i.e. they run over and under one another from the common plenum to the cylinder head.

It would be very difficult (to me it seems) to get injector bungs into the common runners (see how they run?)...much less a set of injectors and rails.

The 4x2 intake would have this same problem (and you would need two throttle bodies and the 6x2 intake the same problem and I wouldn't know what thpe of throttle body you would use.

Can you enlightem me as I am fully open for suggestions. To FI one of these things would be something...

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Bob Hopkins
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posted 01-23-2004 02:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob Hopkins   Click Here to Email Bob Hopkins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Easy man I was just bustin on you bout the fireign intake posts
I have see a couple real Hilborn injector intakes for Y-blocks prices are outofsight Most of the 4/2barrel and 6 2/barrel manafolds I have seen were log style {early 50's tech] and had a commen port in the manafold to feed both ports in head you would pull your hair out trining to make that work,maybe on batch fire but not suquencial fire injection.I wonder ifyou could put the injectiors in from side of port stead of top and bottpm???

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SteveLaRiviere
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posted 01-23-2004 02:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sure you could, you just have to do something crafty with the fuel rails.

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 Open
'70 Mustang Convertible 250 I6/3 speed/2.79 Open
'72 Mustang Sprint Hardtop 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Loc
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip

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Moneymaker
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posted 01-23-2004 11:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm pretty sure I caould make an old style log manifold work.

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Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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KULTULZ
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posted 01-24-2004 06:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ   Click Here to Email KULTULZ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I still think a fabricated lowered tunnel ram would be the way to go.

The extended runners would also give you the low end needed.

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Bob Hopkins
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posted 01-28-2004 03:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob Hopkins   Click Here to Email Bob Hopkins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You know i was thinking this over and I think the 4 and 6 carb log manafolds may work fine ,first fake the carbs and make them air only,no fuel and all the Y-block
4-6 log manafolds had no divider between the upper and lower intake ports,so you have one big portyou would have to find a long injectorwith a lot of flow you gonna feed 2 cylinders aim it right in the middle at both ports. And with just 4 injectors to hide in the middle it would still look good.
??????????????????????????????????????

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KULTULZ
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posted 01-29-2004 05:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ   Click Here to Email KULTULZ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
...so you have one big portyou would have to find a long injectorwith a lot of flow you gonna feed 2 cylinders aim it right in the middle at both ports.

You would have to have SEFI in this example wouldn't you? If batch/bank fire, it seems like there would be quite a bit of flow reversion. How would you trigger it? Crank/cam sensor? Specially made MCU?

The Log Type Intake does sounds workable though.

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Moneymaker
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posted 01-29-2004 10:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Individual TBI units could easily be adapted to a multi carb log intake. 2 or even 4.
Save on a lot of plumbing and engineering that way.
That was my plan.

(One more day Gary)

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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KULTULZ
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From: Rockville, MD
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posted 01-29-2004 01:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ   Click Here to Email KULTULZ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If going TBI on a log intake, you might as well just use the BARRY GRANT VFI on a new aluminum intake. No fuss...No muss.

Uh...One more day before what?

...you're not planning on suing me are you...

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Moneymaker
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posted 01-29-2004 01:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KULTULZ:
If going TBI on a log intake, you might as well just use the BARRY GRANT VFI on a new aluminum intake. No fuss...No muss.

Uh...One more day before what?

...you're not planning on suing me are you...



LOL @ Gary

Hell no.


One more day before we get out of this God forsaken weather and head for Orlando FLORIDA!

Why do you think I've been in a bad mood?

I HATE SNOW!!!!!!

PS, the log manifold wout TBI units would look cooler and the cool quotiant is very important!

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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Bob Hopkins
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From: BRIDGEPORT NJ USA
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posted 01-29-2004 01:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob Hopkins   Click Here to Email Bob Hopkins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Iwas flippin through a issue of HOTROD bacK in a piese on new parts I see were Moon equipt has injectors that look like the old Ford Stromberg 97's set on tri carb setups dont know the cost {Not cheap I'll bet}butit looks like old stuff with a air cleaner on it.

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KULTULZ
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posted 01-29-2004 08:56 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ   Click Here to Email KULTULZ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh! Waiting for Orlando. That explains the accelerated PMS moments...

Bob...What issue of HOT ROD are you looking at? I went to their website but saw nothing mentioned. I would surely like to see that.

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Bob Hopkins
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posted 01-30-2004 10:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob Hopkins   Click Here to Email Bob Hopkins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I was the latest one I just got home from work and sat in reading room and was continplating And I like to read during continplating!!!

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Bob Hopkins
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posted 02-03-2004 04:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob Hopkins   Click Here to Email Bob Hopkins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here is a Weiand 6 carb log manafold look at bottom of it this is were I think FI will have some off idle distributation issues thats a bigole hole to work with!!!

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Bob Hopkins
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posted 02-03-2004 04:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob Hopkins   Click Here to Email Bob Hopkins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here is a Weiand 6 carb log manafold look at bottom of it this is were I think FI will have some off idle distributation issues thats a bigole hole to work with!!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2457754461&category=6763

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KULTULZ
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posted 02-03-2004 08:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ   Click Here to Email KULTULZ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

If you notice, most EFI's are single plane. So fuel suspension would not be a problem here (I don't think) if you could get the injectors set up correctly. I still see very little mounting option for injector bungs (as I wouldn't want to alter the looks of one of these things if at all possible). It would have to be a single (hi-flow) on the underside.

Now if you went to TBI and had injectors mounted in the throttle body, I could see low RPM stumble and/or hesitation due to the fuel falling out of the mixture.

I think the log-type intake is the answer but it would have to be a custom made so as not to ruin a piece of history like this illustration.

[This message has been edited by KULTULZ (edited 02-03-2004).]

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KULTULZ
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posted 02-04-2004 02:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ   Click Here to Email KULTULZ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The common runner in the WEIAND only adds to air flow (fuel mixture flow if wet);

This theory is still being used today as is shown in the below photo where a SBC has opened runners on TPI setup. This adds immensely to air flow.

The problem still remains as to where to put one injector per runner.

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Bob Hopkins
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posted 02-04-2004 08:42 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob Hopkins   Click Here to Email Bob Hopkins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The earliest milti-carb manafolds I can remember were fabercated Crowler log style intakes finding one of them will be fun,but you could find aluminum tube and flat stock to fabracate one,and weld bungs on the inner/under sideof log to spray at center ofport branch off,I believe your right with out woring about wet flowand fuel drop out a log will work,I wonder how it would chang things to move the logsand lengthen the branch runners to head ports???Lengthen them and cross the logs to feed opposite side,keeping the 6-97 look. you cand weld one up and I'll try it on my 292" 56 Fairlane

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KULTULZ
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posted 02-04-2004 12:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ   Click Here to Email KULTULZ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
...you cand weld one up and I'll try it on my 292" 56 Fairlane

The earliest multi-carb I remember seeing (and understanding what I was looking at) was a 58 CHEV 348.

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Bob Hopkins
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posted 02-04-2004 03:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob Hopkins   Click Here to Email Bob Hopkins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
you must be one of them young kids I can rember the new issue of HOT RODcoming in the mail With a big article in the new 54 Ford with overhead valves,and still have the magazine. In all the old mags back then they were all advertisinf multi- carb log "u-weld-them" manafolds

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SteveLaRiviere
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posted 02-04-2004 03:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ah, just toss a 460 in it and get rid of all this farm equipment!

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 Open
'70 Mustang Convertible 250 I6/3 speed/2.79 Open
'72 Mustang Sprint Hardtop 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Loc
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip

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Bob Hopkins
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posted 02-04-2004 04:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob Hopkins   Click Here to Email Bob Hopkins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
finding a 6 carb manafold is gonna be rite impossable for one of themthere chevyhead 385 seriesmotors

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Bob Hopkins
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posted 02-04-2004 04:25 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob Hopkins   Click Here to Email Bob Hopkins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you want to go big cubes I'd go with a MEL 462" with the 6 carb intake

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SteveLaRiviere
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posted 02-04-2004 04:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for SteveLaRiviere   Click Here to Email SteveLaRiviere     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Hopkins:
finding a 6 carb manafold is gonna be rite impossable for one of themthere chevyhead 385 seriesmotors

Good, then you won't have to worry about the horsepower loss of multiple carbs.

------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 Open
'70 Mustang Convertible 250 I6/3 speed/2.79 Open
'72 Mustang Sprint Hardtop 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Loc
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip

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Bob Hopkins
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posted 02-05-2004 11:11 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob Hopkins   Click Here to Email Bob Hopkins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
horsepower loss of multi-carbs?????

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KULTULZ
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posted 02-23-2004 03:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ   Click Here to Email KULTULZ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
-Y-BLOCK FUEL INJECTION SOLVED!

Mounted on a 6x2 log intake...

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Bob Hopkins
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posted 03-09-2004 09:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob Hopkins   Click Here to Email Bob Hopkins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
OK here this will be the perfect intake to add port injectors

http://www.y-blocksforever.com/html/yestertech.html

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KULTULZ
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posted 03-09-2004 02:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ   Click Here to Email KULTULZ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Remember...I showed this one in an earlier post. The only problem I see with it would be hood clearance.

What I am thinking (dangerous) is a design similiar to a CHEV TPI. The runners would be fairly short and the rails could be run under the plenum. Well, not actually under the plenum on the Y-BLOCK, but maybe a fuel block that would hold four injectors between the four intake runners on either side. The upper plenum could be either a front throttle body mount design or just have a normal carb pad to accept a throttle body so as to retain some stock appearance.

I have been thinking on this pretty hard lately (that's why I am napping so much lately) as you know I am a MEL freak and there is no suitable fuel delivery except for the 3X2's and everyone has that. A set of HILLBORN injectors just went off on e-bay for a little over five hundred but by the time you have it modified to EFI, you would have a fortune in it. Same for the MOON 97's...You would have a fortune invested on a log manifold.

It would be something similiar to this;

What did you say you were going to do with that 462?

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Bob Hopkins
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posted 03-09-2004 03:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob Hopkins   Click Here to Email Bob Hopkins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I never bought the 462 I just found one in boneyard up here in Jersey and was thinking !!!!
what are you thinking of puting this into? they tend to be a tad heavy I think just about any way you go with this F/I setup it's gonna costBUCKS,what the hey we can't spend it in the nursing home

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KULTULZ
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posted 03-09-2004 05:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ   Click Here to Email KULTULZ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
How about this brainstorm?

The heat riser is cut away and plugged (don't need it with EFI). Make a hold down plate to hold the runners tightly to the head surface and on these have a mounting bracket to tie down a fuel block (two piece) with injectors going into runners (in area where heat passage was). If the injectors need to be serviced, you merely unbolt the fuel block from the common tie down and pull upwards.

This would allow a four hole throttle body so that a regular air cleaner could be used. It could be managed by a MUSTANG ECM and harness to keep the cost down.

The 430 would go into a 52/54 MERC if I could find a fairly clean body.

You live just across the Commodore Perry Bridge, correct? Why not just run U30 to Carlisle. I would be afraid someone would hit the '56 on the Turnpike.

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Bob Hopkins
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posted 01-10-2005 01:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob Hopkins   Click Here to Email Bob Hopkins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have a picture of fuel injection manafold for y -block using 5.0 injectors ans troddle body can I e- mail them to somebody to post?? I can't post picts

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KULTULZ
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posted 01-10-2005 01:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ   Click Here to Email KULTULZ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[email protected]

Bob,

I have this useless HOTMAIL and it will usually not allow more than one attachement per E-Mail. If there is more than one photo, you will need to send it on more than one E-Mail.

Sorry...

[This message has been edited by KULTULZ (edited 01-11-2005).]

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KULTULZ
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posted 01-11-2005 08:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ   Click Here to Email KULTULZ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I got the photo Bob, but the file is so large I cannot post it here (and I am not good at resizing). Can anyone else help?

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KULTULZ
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From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 01-22-2005 05:06 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ   Click Here to Email KULTULZ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is the ALGON FI setup for the Y;

Notice how it has under and over runners at the intake surface(s)?

This unit is presently on E-BAY now if any one is interested. It can be converted to Electronic Fuel Injection.

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I am looking for information concerning factory performance/aftermarket speed parts (1958/1960) used on the MEL (Mercury-Edsel-Lincoln) (Also Thunderbird 59/60) Engine Series (383-410-430-462) produced from 1958 thru 1968.

Also older FORD Special Service Tools

-MEL Engine Forum-

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KULTULZ
Gearhead

Posts: 863
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 01-22-2005 05:23 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for KULTULZ   Click Here to Email KULTULZ     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bob Hopkins:

I have a picture of fuel injection manafold for y -block using 5.0 injectors ans troddle body can I e- mail them to somebody to post?? I can't post picts.



quote:
Originally posted by KULTULZ:

I got the photo Bob, but the file is so large I cannot post it here (and I am not good at resizing). Can anyone else help?


Until I am able to downsize the photo, the intake appears similiar to this one;

The runners are siamesed as above with injectors inserted at the bottom of the runners (requires some thinking on the fuel rails). The main plenum is an inverted bowl shaped appearing affair with a single throat throttle body (and IAC) mounted with the opening towards that passenger side of the car.

I will post the origional as soon as I am able to downsize it.

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Bob Hopkins
Gearhead

Posts: 362
From: BRIDGEPORT NJ USA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 01-25-2005 02:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob Hopkins   Click Here to Email Bob Hopkins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Buy this intake trow the carbs under the bench and weld a plate to mount a late 5.0 injector to front ans a Vortech to compress the air

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Bob Hopkins
Gearhead

Posts: 362
From: BRIDGEPORT NJ USA
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 01-26-2005 09:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob Hopkins   Click Here to Email Bob Hopkins     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I guess it wouls help if i pasted the link ???? Damn I good with computers NOT

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=34202&item=4521220196&rd=1

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