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Author Topic:   Hard to take
indyphil
Gearhead

Posts: 1882
From: Senoia, G.A. USA
Registered: Jul 2002

posted 10-06-2004 11:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for indyphil   Click Here to Email indyphil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Im having a little trouble at work
I dont want to stir a hornets nest with this one but I have to get it off my chest.

There is a young woman who I have to work with that could possibly be the stupidest engineer I have ever met. It takes a ridiculous amount of hard work to get a simple message across about simple things like a graph or chart. this was making me insane with all the wasted time as I helped her through all kinds of meetings on stuff that she should be doing by herself.

Now I found out that she was recently hired straight out of college (on first meeting her I thought she was an intern) into a grade 24 position. to put that in perspective - most folk dont get that far unless they have 10-20 years out of college and have proved themseleves. Im a 22 after 6 years of hard work - many of my friends are lower than that. To top that she was given a position of considerable responsibility. She happense to be african american - and I am told from a reliable source that this is why she got the job, and the grade, and the position. She can barely string a coherant sentance together god knows how she got a degree. Sometimes I think life is hard but then I find this stuff out and I really wonder what the hell is going on. Im working for somone at least 4 years younger than me, whos making 50%+ more than me, and can barely tie a shoelace. I have been told its basically to improve corporate diversity...

Anyone who is of a minority should know that I am NOT in any way racist and if they take offence to this then its not intentional. But I just dont see how it does anyone any good to give people such a ridiculous headstart when they are clearly not capable of the job. I have worked for many people of many races and am a fan of diversity - this is just ridiculous. Im even afraid to talk to my manager about it but I know everyone shares the same opinion. Anyone that has the displeasure of working with her can see the incompetance. I try to enoucrage diversity and try to teach people to be colorblind but this is heartbreaking.

Do any of you have to deal with this?

------------------
'68 coupe, '66 289 C code
engine, edel 600cfm carb, performer intake, dual exhaust http://www.geocities.com/ottouk_77/68mustang.htm

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adragon8u
Gearhead

Posts: 4211
From: Oceano, Ca.
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 10-06-2004 12:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for adragon8u   Click Here to Email adragon8u     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Fortunately I haven't had to deal with this. But I understand your frustration. This is why our companies are going under. When someone is hired soley to keep the companies racial quota in line, then the company suffers for it and so do the other workers. If I was in charge of hiring and had to fullfill a racial quota, then I would advertise for help from a particular race and pick the best one out of them. Then...when people complained about me only hiring a certain race, I'd point out that it's the Government that's requiring it and why should I waste my time interviewing people I can't hire anyway.

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"I started with nothing, and I still have most of it left"
http://webpages.charter.net/adragon8u/mystang

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indyphil
Gearhead

Posts: 1882
From: Senoia, G.A. USA
Registered: Jul 2002

posted 10-06-2004 12:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for indyphil   Click Here to Email indyphil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We dont use terms like "quota" we just try to "encourage diversity" which I think is generally a good thing - all things being equal.

In this case though all things are not equal. Sitting in a meeting today discussing the same simple crap we discussed yesterday I had to get a friend to call me out of there before I slit my wrists. it takes 3 engineers several meetings to sit her down and explain something that she should be able to figure out by herself in an afternoon. All of this is company time and money wasted while I end up doing it all myself anyway. Some of the recent graduates I have seen have been shocking (from all races and sexes) - it seems book learning and memory recital of useless crap takes precedence over organization/common sense/analytical skills or pretty much anything else. We wonder why our economy is slow to recover - its education. Once the current baby boomer population retires we will be in real trouble - there wont be enough diapers to go around or nannys to help these uneducated "graduates" find their own a$$es with both hands.

Back in the day a new graduate was forced to endure a minimum 2 year training program where you were slowly and painfully converted from a useless academic into a professional engineer. Aparently in todays world of high turnover buisness and contracting/outsourcing we dont take the time to train anyone anymore.

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'68 coupe, '66 289 C code
engine, edel 600cfm carb, performer intake, dual exhaust http://www.geocities.com/ottouk_77/68mustang.htm

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65darkhorse
Gearhead

Posts: 791
From: Northern NJ
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 10-06-2004 12:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 65darkhorse     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Umm, Phil ... why do you (and others) keep helping her ?

If she was hired to fill such an important job, well, let her do her job ... how ever painful it might be. Peter's Principle will soon show itself and management will (hopefully) realize the error ...

Sit back, relax and enjoy the show - life is too short to get all wound up.

------------------
'04 Porsche ~ '65 GT 302 5 spd
"Trust your instinct to the end, though you can render no reason." R.W. Emerson
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
my stang!

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adragon8u
Gearhead

Posts: 4211
From: Oceano, Ca.
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 10-06-2004 12:45 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for adragon8u   Click Here to Email adragon8u     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That's a good point Darkhorse. Just quit helping her. She doesn't help you I would assume?

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"I started with nothing, and I still have most of it left"
http://webpages.charter.net/adragon8u/mystang

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capri man
Gearhead

Posts: 5526
From: doerun, ga.
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 10-06-2004 12:54 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for capri man   Click Here to Email capri man     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
yup, give her enough rope and she will hang herself!!

------------------
mike r
racing is real
everything else is just a game.
81 capri-302-7.33 @92mph 1/8
1.54 60 ft.

http://community.prestage.com/Member+Pages/789.aspx

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ccode67
Gearhead

Posts: 2339
From: douglasville,ga,usa
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 10-06-2004 01:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for ccode67   Click Here to Email ccode67     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Phil, I understand the frustration, happens at the newspaper quite frequently.

Let her do her job, it is HER job. If she can't handle it the powers that be will see it eventually. As long as you and your co-workers keep doing it for her it won't change. My 2 cents.

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Thud
Gearhead

Posts: 1170
From: Cumming,Ga.,USofA
Registered: Jun 99

posted 10-06-2004 01:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Thud     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 65darkhorse:
Umm, Phil ... why do you (and others) keep helping her ?

If she was hired to fill such an important job, well, let her do her job ... how ever painful it might be. Peter's Principle will soon show itself and management will (hopefully) realize the error ...

Sit back, relax and enjoy the show - life is too short to get all wound up.



The problem is that he could find himself in a similar situation that we had where I work several years ago.

The company lowered the standards on the promotion test since they couldn't get the "mix" they needed. When problems started appearing, we who had been doing the work were told that we would be held accountable for the newly bumped-up employees' errors...

Regardless of whether we were at lunch, dealing with a critical problem, or taking a crap.

Thank God our first-level managers were able to pull the execs' heads out of their rectums on this one.

I don't know your work situation, Indy, but it's just way too easy for the clowns who hired her to label you as "non-diverse" and "not-a-team-player" if you let her crash and burn... Let her crash and burn, just be REAL careful how you do it...

------------------
"I only drink to steady my nerves. Sometimes I'm so steady I don't move for months." - W.C. Fields -

To do is to be. -Descartes
To be is to do. -Voltaire
Do be do be do. -Frank Sinatra

Dwayne

M&M Member #18
Son of Smurf
'94 Lightning #942 of 4007
'70 Mach1
'75 Cougar
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Dave Gibson
Moderator

Posts: 8168
From: Norfolk, Virginia, USA M&M#166 MCA#47921
Registered: Aug 99

posted 10-06-2004 01:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave Gibson   Click Here to Email Dave Gibson     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Phil,
I can say "Yes" to the same issues. I see it day in and day out. It's a crying shame. You are very correct on the fact that the best qualified person is NOT always the person selected for or promoted to the position. You are also correct that the goverment enfored "Quota's" are effecting the economy and jobs. I'm by no means racist, but something needs to be done to correct this problem. What does race or sex have to do with someones ability to get a job done??

Common Sense is NOT common anymore.(It's part of my signature)

What ever happened to doing things the old fashioned way, earning it????

Dave & Terri

------------------
'65 Mustang Fastback
'02 Explorer XLT
I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it!
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of smart?
Common sense is not so common anymore.

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65darkhorse
Gearhead

Posts: 791
From: Northern NJ
Registered: Aug 2002

posted 10-06-2004 01:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for 65darkhorse     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Gibson:
I can say "Yes" to the same issues.

uh huh, same here, except one of the 'brain trusts' here got their job not thru any sort of quota, but rather because they had their nose the furthest up the bosses collective asses. So sad considering this guy practically needs directions on how to use a urinal. so sad. welcome to company politics 101.

------------------
'04 Porsche ~ '65 GT 302 5 spd
"Trust your instinct to the end, though you can render no reason." R.W. Emerson
Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem
my stang!

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indyphil
Gearhead

Posts: 1882
From: Senoia, G.A. USA
Registered: Jul 2002

posted 10-06-2004 02:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for indyphil   Click Here to Email indyphil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
To be more specific, she is leading a team - the results of which will affect me. If I let her fail (or take 3 months to reach the answer) then I will look bad. So I end up doing the bulk of the work while she shows at meetings, looks stupid then goes off back to her desk and does god knows what (probably pi$$es other engineers off)

What bothers me is not that we have a moron working here (we have plenty) but that she was hired from college into a very elevated position - some say because of race. Regardless of race im sick and tired of the situation.

Im trying not to rant. Today has been a bad day for lots of reasons. Bad is a relative term for me, I know Ive got it lucky compared to most - I just need to chill.

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'68 coupe, '66 289 C code
engine, edel 600cfm carb, performer intake, dual exhaust http://www.geocities.com/ottouk_77/68mustang.htm

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capri man
Gearhead

Posts: 5526
From: doerun, ga.
Registered: Nov 2000

posted 10-06-2004 02:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for capri man   Click Here to Email capri man     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
phil, go by the moose lodge and have a beer!! tell them to send me the bill!!

------------------
mike r
racing is real
everything else is just a game.
81 capri-302-7.33 @92mph 1/8
1.54 60 ft.

http://community.prestage.com/Member+Pages/789.aspx

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adragon8u
Gearhead

Posts: 4211
From: Oceano, Ca.
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 10-06-2004 07:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for adragon8u   Click Here to Email adragon8u     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Here's an idea I read about a long time ago.
Send her resume out to other companies and build it up real good. When she gets a call or offer "out of the blue" She'll be stoked thinking she was sought out and may take the new job.

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"I started with nothing, and I still have most of it left"
http://webpages.charter.net/adragon8u/mystang

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itlbrnmoff
Gearhead

Posts: 2148
From: Indianapolis,IN.USA
Registered: Nov 2002

posted 10-07-2004 02:49 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for itlbrnmoff   Click Here to Email itlbrnmoff     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I see the problem here. Phil is such a nice guy, he will try his best to help the lady out, even if it winds him tighter than a yo-yo...kinda like me.

But once the patience finally wears off, LOOK OUT!!

I was in a similar situation myself in a supervisory position...it was a position alright...try to help people keep their job when they weren't producing to established standards in their 90 day probationary period, and only increased my own stress and workload level...in other words, bend over and get in position.

But Phil's dilemna is totally different, a professional position, which would require the knowledge of a degree, except the girl is just out of college, which will take some time to learn the ropes. But it's really tough to swallow that the girl is suppose to be a higher grade engineer than you, and helping her achieve that level makes you feel cheated? Just wondering. I couldn't stand the fact that my boss didn't even know how to effectively do my job, but I had to answer to him. He got the upper supervisor position because he was a likeable $uck-a$$, and I was a last resort in a facility expansion. Although I had 9 years of commendable work history with the company.

I'll play the "no I'm not a racist" game too. But I have to also admit that some people have the verbal and written skills of a 3rd grader, but somehow managed to slide through HS and college. (waiting for N2oMike anytime now)

I'd say if you're really the guy I think you are, you'll bite the bullet and give her some time. But if your beard starts growing gray, and progress is diminishing, time to speak up. Just make sure she doesn't become your boss someday.

Or, we could all vote for Kerry, then if she didn't work out in the end, she could go back to college for a while, and there would be plenty of free programs to keep her afloat while she's learning.

------------------
'83 Mustang GT T/tops 306, 5-speed, 3.45 trac-loc, 650 dbl. pmpr. RPM intake, headers, 2 1/2" exhaust, 2 chamber Flowmasters = LOUD....
'88 Lincoln Mark VII LSC 5.0 HO, AOD, leather, A/C, 3.27 trac-loc...
And last but not least...a darn nice '97 Mopar 2wd monster truck I call the BlueWhale...

"It's not what you know, but how well you tell what you think you know"...LOL

[This message has been edited by itlbrnmoff (edited 10-07-2004).]

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Fastback68
Gearhead

Posts: 2595
From: Sucat, Paranaque, Philippines
Registered: Jul 99

posted 10-07-2004 04:39 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastback68   Click Here to Email Fastback68     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
But I have to also admit that some people have the verbal and written skills of a 3rd grader, but somehow managed to slide through HS and college.

Oh no, not ANOTHER thread about your president!

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mustangmach
Journeyman

Posts: 38
From: Clinton,OK,USA
Registered: Nov 2003

posted 10-07-2004 10:09 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for mustangmach   Click Here to Email mustangmach     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sounds very frustrating. My philosiphy is " No one can yank your rope if you ain't holding on". So when you have to deal with this kind of stuff, Turn loose of the rope!

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itlbrnmoff
Gearhead

Posts: 2148
From: Indianapolis,IN.USA
Registered: Nov 2002

posted 10-07-2004 02:09 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for itlbrnmoff   Click Here to Email itlbrnmoff     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fastback68:
[QUOTE]But I have to also admit that some people have the verbal and written skills of a 3rd grader, but somehow managed to slide through HS and college.


Oh no, not ANOTHER thread about your president!
[/QUOTE]Are you stalking me Simon?

Hell, just vote for me, y'all would never know the difference.

------------------
'83 Mustang GT T/tops 306, 5-speed, 3.45 trac-loc, 650 dbl. pmpr. RPM intake, headers, 2 1/2" exhaust, 2 chamber Flowmasters = LOUD....
'88 Lincoln Mark VII LSC 5.0 HO, AOD, leather, A/C, 3.27 trac-loc...
And last but not least...a darn nice '97 Mopar 2wd monster truck I call the BlueWhale...

"It's not what you know, but how well you tell what you think you know"...LOL

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indyphil
Gearhead

Posts: 1882
From: Senoia, G.A. USA
Registered: Jul 2002

posted 10-07-2004 03:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for indyphil   Click Here to Email indyphil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Im sorry I was just in a bad mood yesterday. I shouldnt whine - i mean life is never fair. Its not like I envy her position or her money - I just wish management wouldnt make such stupid hiring decisions.

thats one thing I have against the democrats - to snuggle up to the minorities and get their vote they put all this discriminating stuff into law so that were are NOT equal anymore. If I was a minority (in a way I am because Im a British-American) I wouldnt want any charity - I want to make it on my own not with hand outs and help-me-ups.

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'68 coupe, '66 289 C code
engine, edel 600cfm carb, performer intake, dual exhaust http://www.geocities.com/ottouk_77/68mustang.htm

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 2100
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 10-07-2004 04:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I saw an episode on the TV show 60 minutes that profiled two females applying for admission to ivy league schools...

One had an SAT score close to 1600, participated in all sorts of extra-curricular activities, did all sorts of volunteer work, played sports, had a 4.0 gpa, etc.

The other had around a 1350, and not a whole lot else.....

They all applied to 10 schools. The one with the score of 1350 was accepted to six of them, the first one zero.

Yes, the one accepted to the six schools was black. The first was white.

The colleges were questioned, and had to admit that race was a significant factor in admittance.

I don't know where political correctness and prejudice collide, but it sure seems like prejudice is alive and well. As long as the caucasion gets the short end of the stick, it's okay....

"REVERSE" discrimination is not any more right than the discrimination of the past. It simply breeds more contempt for those who get 'freebies' and special privileges.

Politics and political correctness need a serious overhaul... but nobody has the 'balls' to do it. If a white person even brings it up, he's labelled a racist.

my $0.02

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

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Buster
Gearhead

Posts: 1409
From: Hurricane alley
Registered: May 2002

posted 10-07-2004 04:27 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Buster   Click Here to Email Buster     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by n2oMike:

I don't know where political correctness and prejudice collide, but it sure seems like prejudice is alive and well. As long as the caucasion gets the short end of the stick, it's okay....

"REVERSE" discrimination is not any more right than the discrimination of the past. It simply breeds more contempt for those who get 'freebies' and special privileges.

Politics and political correctness need a serious overhaul... but nobody has the 'balls' to do it. If a white person even brings it up, he's labelled a racist.

my $0.02


Mike, I sentiments exactly... I couldn?t have said it better. Believe it or not it's been going on for over 20 years as well.

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Fastymz
Moderator

Posts: 17145
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 10-07-2004 04:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastymz   Click Here to Email Fastymz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Buster:
Mike, I sentiments exactly... I couldn?t have said it better. Believe it or not it's been going on for over 20 years as well.

That goes for me too!
I saw it over and over again in law enforcement. At times it was enough to make me sick.

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SCOOP

oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs

65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc.

My Pics

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Moneymaker
Administrator

Posts: 22941
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 10-07-2004 04:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
When I ran the dealership I had a state sponsored "minority" review annually.
I was always directed by the stae of IL to make certain that my hiring practices included at least a 25% minority in all departments.
I only hired qualified people even if they were from Mars or Venus.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
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Fastymz
Moderator

Posts: 17145
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 10-07-2004 06:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastymz   Click Here to Email Fastymz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

Just the act of picking one person for a position over another is a from of discrimination isn't it ?

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SCOOP

oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs

65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc.

My Pics

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Dave Gibson
Moderator

Posts: 8168
From: Norfolk, Virginia, USA M&M#166 MCA#47921
Registered: Aug 99

posted 10-08-2004 04:32 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dave Gibson   Click Here to Email Dave Gibson     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fastymz:

Just the act of picking one person for a position over another is a from of discrimination isn't it ?

No Scoop. That is called picking the best person for the job. Race, sex, religion, etc... should not be part of the qualifications. Unfortunately with goverment regulations, you really can't do that any more. Sad. Real sad.

Dave & Terri

------------------
'65 Mustang Fastback
'02 Explorer XLT
I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it!
We have enough youth, how about a fountain of smart?
Common sense is not so common anymore.

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ccode67
Gearhead

Posts: 2339
From: douglasville,ga,usa
Registered: Mar 2001

posted 10-08-2004 07:15 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for ccode67   Click Here to Email ccode67     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Being a graduate of DIVERSITY class, TWICE, the first time didn't stick.
I can tell you, the corporate world doesn't care if that person can do the job, only whether or not they can be trained to do that job.
I was told in this class, if two applicants are in front of me, one white, one something else, to hire the something else even if the white has better qualifications and/or more experience.
The instructors words...so he's not qualified, is he qualifyable? If so hire him instead of the one already qualified because of the color of his skin or gender.

Personally, I think the Diversity class is bullsh**, I will hire the MOST qualified person regardless of anything else.

For the record, of the 6 people I've hired, 4 were black, one of those a female. Unfortunatly, all 6 of them were in the group that I had to lay off earlier this year.

Hang in there Phil, maybe she'll catch on and be a good co-worker. Hey, she must be fairly intelligent to have an engineering degree, right. Maybe she just needs some help getting her focus.

[This message has been edited by ccode67 (edited 10-08-2004).]

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indyphil
Gearhead

Posts: 1882
From: Senoia, G.A. USA
Registered: Jul 2002

posted 10-08-2004 07:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for indyphil   Click Here to Email indyphil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
this girl would be fine is she was trainable, but I get the feeling that it would be extremely difficult. the simplest things tax her like shes taking an astrophysics final. If you cant get the basics then training for REAL expertise is out of the question. When I say Basic, I mean understanding why some data would be better presented as a bar chart instead of a line graph - not even real engineering fundamentals but common sense stuff that should jump out at you. Although at the level she is at now, she doesnt need expertise all she needs is to be able sign her name and voila shes future CEO material.

I know all of the reverse discrimination, it just all makes me too angry for words. I would honestly vote for Bush If I thought he would fight on such issues (but he wont, because no-one will). There is a lot of oportunity in this country for people who are willing to work hard for it. And I mean WORK HARD, like over 12 hours a day, sell your soul to a company. People dont need hand-outs they just need to focus on their goals and decide how bad they want to achieve them.

I know lots of regular folk who only got as far as highschool who have made a better life than many college grads who thought they were "entitled" to a high paying job.

Im sure there are lots of minority familys out there (asian, indian, african american) that work really hard and make a great success of life. They raise great children who made it the HARD WAY. All these freebee jobs and education programs dilute their effort and make people wonder if they really deserve their success.

I dont have anything against hand-outs (like scholarships) for those who need them - but the "need" should be based on their financial situation not their skin colour.

------------------
'68 coupe, '66 289 C code
engine, edel 600cfm carb, performer intake, dual exhaust http://www.geocities.com/ottouk_77/68mustang.htm

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n2oMike
Gearhead

Posts: 2100
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001

posted 10-08-2004 08:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for n2oMike   Click Here to Email n2oMike     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For these reasons, I am VERY hesitant to visit a black doctor... as they are very rare, and I'd say the hospital would probably hire any one of them as long as they had a pulse.

They may or may not be really good, but with all the reverse discrimination going on, I'll always wonder.

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
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gunrocker
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Posts: 436
From: Colliers, WV,USA
Registered: Mar 2004

posted 10-09-2004 12:25 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for gunrocker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Phil...Welcome to the world of the Democrat Party induced affirmative action.

I know from your past posts that you are only 27 yrs. old...a mere neophyte in the chronology of the workforce years facing you ahead...and I'm sure I have quite a bit more experience than you may have here.

Let me tell you some of the things that I have experienced over my lifetime in the workforce, that is considerably longer than yours. (I'm going on 54).

As a college educated professional with an udergraduate degree in the Occupational Safety and Environmental Engineering field, and a graduate degree in Industrial Technology Education, I started my career working in the steel mills. I also was working there on the daylight and night shifts while earning my two degrees in the evenings...and graduated with an overall 3.96 GPA. I also hold professional certification in Industrial Hygiene, Medical OSHA, Radiological Monitoring, along with many others.

After getting my FIRST degree (didn't have my masters yet) I tried transferring into the Safety Engineering Department, but was denied and was told I needed a masters degree to work in that department (no one else had one) that there WERE openings though...only to find out a week later they hired an African-American who had worked as a laborer and accidently cut off his fingers in a press (while he was drunk). This guy had been through drug and alcohol rehab twice before, and they made HIM a safety engineer...NO degree, NOTHING...simply because he was black, and there were no blacks in that department, so they had to fill it with a minority!!!
Me?...I had to have a Masters to work there...he needed NONE...by LAW he only needed darker skin than me!

I then looked to working in the Environmental Control Department, since there was an opening with one of my college professors (as his assistant) who also worked at this steel mill. This professor asked if I would be interested in working with him, since I graduated #1 in the program of Industrial Hygiene...and I jumped at the chance. He told me that the policy of the corporation was to put up a company wide bid first, and that you needed a college degree in the field...of which I found out I was the ONLY person out of 13,000 employees who had one! I was denied the position because the black EEOC advisor from Human Resources said there were no blacks in the Environmental Department...so they went OUTSIDE the corporation and hired a black guy off the street, with again...NO degree!

There was then a supervison opening in the maintenance department (where I was working) and two of my supervisors elected me for the position (quite a greater amount of pay too) I was denied that position also, and it was given to a very good friend of mine who is black...nice guy, but he honestly barely made it through high school, and could barely read or write. After all of that I ended up leaving.

But I'm not done yet!...A few years back I decided to make another career change, and answered an advertisement for a Technology Research Agent, at the National Technology Transfer Center at Wheeling Jesuit College...right up my alley with my technology degree.(so I thought!!!)

I was interviewed by this young lady who would be my supervisor...now mind you, the requirement for this position was that you HAD to have a MASTERS degree, no if's, or's, ands, or buts...and the question I put to her after the interview in casual conversation was "what is YOUR degree in?" to which she responded "I DON'T HAVE A DEGREE...I was a Kelly Girl working as a temp here for 3 months, and they kept me on here"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Geeeeee...ANOTHER minority quota filled position...filled by a girl with NO college degree...but I HAD to have a masters degree to work as her subordinate!!!! Go figure.

I could go on and on, but it's late and I have to get up early and go to a friends fathers funeral.

I can say a few more things though...I'm SURE you will experience more of this too as time goes on for you...and just wait till you apply for other jobs and you're told you have too much education and your overqualified... and THEN they hire a minority with even less qualifications and education than you have!

You know...I would have no beef at all about all of this from a government...IF there was discrimination in the past and you needed to fill these positions with QUALIFIED minorities...but DON'T insult my intelligence and discredit the hard work and time, sacrifices, and perseverance, and also trivialize MY degrees and all that I HAD to do to even get a lousy interview for these positions!

Keep voting Democrat my young friend! ...gr

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gunrocker
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Posts: 436
From: Colliers, WV,USA
Registered: Mar 2004

posted 10-09-2004 12:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for gunrocker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Phil...Welcome to the world of the Democrat Party induced affirmative action.

I know from your past posts that you are only 27 yrs. old...a mere neophyte in the chronology of the workforce years facing you ahead...and I'm sure I have quite a bit more experience than you may have here.

Let me tell you some of the things that I have experienced over my lifetime in the workforce, that is considerably longer than yours. (I'm going on 54).

As a college educated professional with an udergraduate degree in the Occupational Safety and Environmental Engineering field, and a graduate degree in Industrial Technology Education, I started my career working in the steel mills. I also was working there on the daylight and night shifts while earning my two degrees in the evenings...and graduated with an overall 3.96 GPA. I also hold professional certification in Industrial Hygiene, Medical OSHA, Radiological Monitoring, along with many others.

After getting my FIRST degree (didn't have my masters yet) I tried transferring into the Safety Engineering Department, but was denied and was told I needed a masters degree to work in that department (no one else had one) that there WERE openings though...only to find out a week later they hired an African-American who had worked as a laborer and accidently cut off his fingers in a press (while he was drunk). This guy had been through drug and alcohol rehab twice before, and they made HIM a safety engineer...NO degree, NOTHING...simply because he was black, and there were no blacks in that department, so they had to fill it with a minority!!!
Me?...I had to have a Masters to work there...he needed NONE...by LAW he only needed darker skin than me!

I then looked to working in the Environmental Control Department, since there was an opening with one of my college professors (as his assistant) who also worked at this steel mill. This professor asked if I would be interested in working with him, since I graduated #1 in the program of Industrial Hygiene...and I jumped at the chance. He told me that the policy of the corporation was to put up a company wide bid first, and that you needed a college degree in the field...of which I found out I was the ONLY person out of 13,000 employees who had one! I was denied the position because the black EEOC advisor from Human Resources said there were no blacks in the Environmental Department...so they went OUTSIDE the corporation and hired a black guy off the street, with again...NO degree!

There was then a supervison opening in the maintenance department (where I was working) and two of my supervisors elected me for the position (quite a greater amount of pay too) I was denied that position also, and it was given to a very good friend of mine who is black...nice guy, but he honestly barely made it through high school, and could barely read or write. After all of that I ended up leaving.

But I'm not done yet!...A few years back I decided to make another career change, and answered an advertisement for a Technology Research Agent, at the National Technology Transfer Center at Wheeling Jesuit College...right up my alley with my technology degree.(so I thought!!!)

I was interviewed by this young lady who would be my supervisor...now mind you, the requirement for this position was that you HAD to have a MASTERS degree, no if's, or's, ands, or buts...and the question I put to her after the interview in casual conversation was "what is YOUR degree in?" to which she responded "I DON'T HAVE A DEGREE...I was a Kelly Girl working as a temp here for 3 months, and they kept me on here"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Geeeeee...ANOTHER minority quota filled position...filled by a girl with NO college degree...but I HAD to have a masters degree to work as her subordinate!!!! Needless to say I didn't get the position...I found out later a personal friend of hers got it. Go figure.

I could go on and on, but it's late and I have to get up early and go to a friends fathers funeral.

I can say a few more things though...I'm SURE you will experience more of this too as time goes on for you...and just wait till you apply for other jobs and you're told you have too much education and your overqualified... and THEN they hire a minority with even less qualifications and education than you have!

You know...I would have no beef at all about all of this from a government...IF there was discrimination in the past and you needed to fill these positions with QUALIFIED minorities...but DON'T insult my intelligence and discredit the hard work and time, sacrifices, and perseverance, and also trivialize MY degrees and all that I HAD to do to even get a lousy interview for these positions!

Keep voting Democrat my young friend! ...gr

[This message has been edited by gunrocker (edited 10-09-2004).]

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gunrocker
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Posts: 436
From: Colliers, WV,USA
Registered: Mar 2004

posted 10-09-2004 12:27 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for gunrocker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Scoop...Were you in law enforcement?
I heard this happened a LOT there.

[This message has been edited by gunrocker (edited 10-09-2004).]

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Toronado3800
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Posts: 466
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Jul 2001

posted 10-10-2004 04:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Toronado3800     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Affirmative action was created because of racists not hiring the best qualified candidates due to religion, sex, or skin color. That said, lowering of entry standards to schools or lowering job qualifications as a quick lazy fix is a mistake.

In my limited experience only the Railroad I worked for was forced to hire, promote, or keep people because of religion or skin tone. This was due to the core good 'ol boys club they were trying to keep in place. Heck, their pride and joy dispatching center is even named after a eugenics support.

Idealy if I owned a company I'd be able to hire who I want. BUT, if I don't not hire any qualified male gradeschool teachers for fifteen years eventually some one will complain and I'll be forced to hire ANY male teacher who applies.

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itlbrnmoff
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Posts: 2148
From: Indianapolis,IN.USA
Registered: Nov 2002

posted 10-10-2004 07:38 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for itlbrnmoff   Click Here to Email itlbrnmoff     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wow! Now I see the whole picture. the more I hang out here, the more I learn, and the more I realize that I'm "not" wrong for not aspiring to make more of myself with college certificates, although, if I wasn't in the job I am now, I don't know where I'd be.
The making of a republican was never explain better than that of Sam Gunrocker either.

Education will still be the best way to procure a technical or professional job, some people will just be in the right place at the right time no matter what the requirements. Don't anyone believe that your degrees are worthless, people like me are depending on your wealth of knowledge to point us in the right direction. I like to contribute my .02 from my life experiences in 40 years, but they're nothing compared to what some of you have faced and continue to deal with.

This is a real dilemna Phil, and all I can say is, continue to be supportive to your company, they know who's really holding things together. When it comes down to getting results, who will they count on?
You've proven to be an asset by making it as far as you have, and that's gotta count for somethin'. Don't give up hope based on a company's legal obligation to accommodate "affirmative action", it's all a part of life as we know it nowadays.

As far as democracy goes, stick to your beliefs or ideals. Many issues are worth fighting for, even if they do include things like what may be causing your headaches right now. I'm not sure what I really qualify as, my "political compass" results had me swaying a bit to the left, but above the center line of the graph. So what would that make me? An assertive bleeding heart?

Hang tough man.

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'83 Mustang GT T/tops 306, 5-speed, 3.45 trac-loc, 650 dbl. pmpr. RPM intake, headers, 2 1/2" exhaust, 2 chamber Flowmasters = LOUD....
'88 Lincoln Mark VII LSC 5.0 HO, AOD, leather, A/C, 3.27 trac-loc...
And last but not least...a darn nice '97 Mopar 2wd monster truck I call the BlueWhale...

"It's not what you know, but how well you tell what you think you know"...LOL

[This message has been edited by itlbrnmoff (edited 10-10-2004).]

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cracing
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Posts: 211
From: Saltillo Miss. USA
Registered: Jan 2002

posted 10-10-2004 12:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for cracing   Click Here to Email cracing     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well I'm going to throw something into this mix too. I think it is wrong to put someone in a position simply because they have a degree in said position. Way too many times a person with a degree & NO experience,(someone who has been riding on Daddy's money & infulence) totally f#### up a great place to work. Whatever happened to experience is the BEST teacher? My opinion "QUALIFIED" for a job does NOT mean they are qualified by education only. I have seen many over 57 years who couldn't pass a written test if their life depended on it,but they KNEW their $hit on the job. Example, I work in a shop of a large truck leasing co.We have had many, many out of diesel colleges of various states, & none, I repeat NONE could do the job with out the one mentioned above showing them how & what to do, yet they were paid more than the one instructing them! Now, I'm not by any means belittleing anyone who has a degree & is good at their trade, but its just as discriminatory to base hiring practice/pay scales against people who earned their degree the hardest way of all by working for it. Their years after school,many had to quit high school to provide for their family,were long hard labor hours where they learned through hard work how to do the things that they are having to teach the ones with a certificate only. This is wrong. Next time you meet an 80,000# plus tractor trailer, or are beside one, or one behind you with your mother, wife, children with you just ask yourself,"wonder if that truck had its brakes, steering, inspected by a tech/manager with complete knowledge of saftey & how it works or was it someone with education only that is concerned with producing numbers, impressing the boss, on a printout, that doesnt know his/her azz from a hole in the ground. I have a bad attitude for stating that we are dealing with peoples lives here!

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BAD COMPANY TILL THE DAY I DIE!!!!!

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Fastymz
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Posts: 17145
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 10-10-2004 02:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastymz   Click Here to Email Fastymz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Gibson:
No Scoop. That is called picking the best person for the job. Race, sex, religion, etc... should not be part of the qualifications. Unfortunately with goverment regulations, you really can't do that any more. Sad. Real sad.

Dave & Terri


dis?crim?i?nate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (d-skrm-nt)
v. dis?crim?i?nat?ed, dis?crim?i?nat?ing, dis?crim?i?nates
v. intr.

"To make a clear distinction; distinguish: discriminate among the options available."

"To make sensible decisions; judge wisely."

To make distinctions on the basis of class or category without regard to individual merit; show preference or prejudice: was accused of discriminating against women; discriminated in favor of his cronies.


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SCOOP

oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs

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adragon8u
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Posts: 4211
From: Oceano, Ca.
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posted 10-10-2004 02:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for adragon8u   Click Here to Email adragon8u     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think Scoop has a good point though. Discrimination in all it's forms is still discrimination. The people raising a stink can't say that you discriminate against stupid people because you only want smart people, that wouldn't really hold up. But..bring in the race card, and you have an argument. Basically, the law requires us to hire the person "least" likely to do a good job based on their race. A law that should be changed because it's killing our competiveness in the bussiness field.

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"I started with nothing, and I still have most of it left"
http://webpages.charter.net/adragon8u/mystang

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Fastymz
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Posts: 17145
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 10-10-2004 02:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastymz   Click Here to Email Fastymz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gunrocker:
Scoop...Were you in law enforcement?
I heard this happened a LOT there.

[This message has been edited by gunrocker (edited 10-09-2004).]


I know it's hard to believe
I was in the RPD reserve program for almost 4 years. I went through the same Academy like all the others. I would go do a 10 hour shift 4 days a week 9PM-7AM. And that was after working 9 hours at my current job.
I couldn't get enough of driving fast legally.
I have some great story's and some experiences that changed my view of people forever.
It was the best thing I've ever done. I think every one should try it. I was even lucky enough to do some spacial training. A good friend of my family is on the force. He use to get my involved in all kinds of things.

Sam, it happens way to often in that field.

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SCOOP

oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs

65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc.

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gunrocker
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Posts: 436
From: Colliers, WV,USA
Registered: Mar 2004

posted 10-10-2004 03:16 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for gunrocker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
cracing...There is a LOT of truth to what you are saying here.

When I see positions open in any corporation and the ad says college degree in a certain field required PLUS experience OR so many years RELEVENT experience required...that is in my opinion, the best and fairest way to promote or hire someone.

I have always been a firm believer that experience is really a great teacher, but so is formal education...they go hand and hand...combine the two and you have the best of both worlds. After all the basis of all education is what others learned through their past experiences, whether through formal education, or what they learned through trial and error; experience.

The thing about formal education is that you are "supposed" to be (by classroom teaching) helping to eliminate the errors that came through the trial and error process of "learning through experience."

I also prefer the European system of education; formal + apprenticeship...which does just as I said: combines the two from the beginning!

In my particular case...I had BOTH, experience and a formal education...I had worked for this same corporation for ten years PRIOR, while earning my degrees in the evenings...and then tried to progress my position with them, all to no avail because of hiring quotas which were plainly discriminatory to me...by law.

As Scoop posted the definition of discriminate, and as adragon8u pointed out...discrimination for ANY reason is simply wrong.

[This message has been edited by gunrocker (edited 10-10-2004).]

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Fastymz
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From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 10-10-2004 03:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastymz   Click Here to Email Fastymz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sam, I tend to be more in favor of experience over formal education. But maybe that's do to my lack of formal education ?

I'd still rather work with some one who's already worked past the mistakes of the new person, with or without a degree.

But I'd have to agree that having both would the best choice of all.

We have about 5 engineering students one is our main warehouse guy, the others run delivery's. They are all in there third year. And not one of them has any common sense at all.
But they can run circles around me in math. They all need some real world experience before I'd call them ready to build a bird house.

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SCOOP

oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs

65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc.

My Pics

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itlbrnmoff
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Posts: 2148
From: Indianapolis,IN.USA
Registered: Nov 2002

posted 10-10-2004 04:29 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for itlbrnmoff   Click Here to Email itlbrnmoff     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fastymz:
I know it's hard to believe
I was in the RPD reserve program for almost 4 years. I went through the same Academy like all the others. I would go do a 10 hour shift 4 days a week 9PM-7AM. And that was after working 9 hours at my current job.
I couldn't get enough of driving fast legally.
I have some great story's and some experiences that changed my view of people forever.
It was the best thing I've ever done. I think every one should try it. I was even lucky enough to do some spacial training. A good friend of my family is on the force. He use to get my involved in all kinds of things.

Sam, it happens way to often in that field.



Exploiting the law for personal recreation....
---------------------------------------------
I couldn't get enough of driving fast legally.
---------------------------------------------

Just kiddin' SCOOP!

So...why did you stop being a cop?
You sound like you really liked it because you mention it alot.?

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'83 Mustang GT T/tops 306, 5-speed, 3.45 trac-loc, 650 dbl. pmpr. RPM intake, headers, 2 1/2" exhaust, 2 chamber Flowmasters = LOUD....
'88 Lincoln Mark VII LSC 5.0 HO, AOD, leather, A/C, 3.27 trac-loc...
And last but not least...a darn nice '97 Mopar 2wd monster truck I call the BlueWhale...

"It's not what you know, but how well you tell what you think you know"...LOL

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Fastymz
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Posts: 17145
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 10-10-2004 04:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastymz   Click Here to Email Fastymz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Perry it was the best thing I've ever done. I have some medical issue's that would have made it real hard to continue in law enforcement.And my current job is more cohesive to my family life. I'm sorry if I bring it up a lot. I just really miss being involved with it, and I guess I like to relive my pass a little too.

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SCOOP

oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs

65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc.

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itlbrnmoff
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Posts: 2148
From: Indianapolis,IN.USA
Registered: Nov 2002

posted 10-10-2004 05:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for itlbrnmoff   Click Here to Email itlbrnmoff     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Don't be sorry for bringing it up alot, I just wanted to make you explain why.

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gunrocker
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Posts: 436
From: Colliers, WV,USA
Registered: Mar 2004

posted 10-11-2004 04:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for gunrocker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fastymz:
Sam, I tend to be more in favor of experience over formal education. But maybe that's do to my lack of formal education ?

Scoop...Don't know for sure...but...could that be a possibility?

I've had several relatives (on my wifes side NATURALLY, that shall remain nameless...Chris's mother Irene, and her sister Susan ) that didn't have degrees, and they would tell my wife "big deal Sam's got a degree, ANYBODY could do that, and the reason he did so well was because what he took was EASY...and I could have gotten a degree if I wanted to!!!"

Yea...Right...much easier said than done!

The one thing that is usually pretty universal is college degree or no college degree, MOST people who start a new job usually don't know what's going on when they are new...and the longer you're there the better you get at it. (hopefully )

[This message has been edited by gunrocker (edited 10-11-2004).]

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gunrocker
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Posts: 436
From: Colliers, WV,USA
Registered: Mar 2004

posted 10-11-2004 04:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for gunrocker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Scoop...I have several friends that took the local law enforcement exam that scored higher on their written exam and physical portion of it, and got turned down for the job because of affirmative action, where the job was given to much lower scoring minorities. Same raw deal.

[This message has been edited by gunrocker (edited 10-11-2004).]

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Fastymz
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Posts: 17145
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 10-11-2004 06:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastymz   Click Here to Email Fastymz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sam, my wife has a Master's degree in literacy. I worked full time the whole 8 years she went to school. I would not have, or could not have traded her spots. I have 2 years worth of college and that took me 3years to get.
I'm one of those people that school doesn't come easy at all.

So I have plenty of respect for those that can get a degree. I also have a lot of respect for those with years of experience in a given field. I'd rather have a cop with 20 years experience and no college then a newer cop with a master degree come to a call for help.
Like wise for a mechanic etc.


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SCOOP

oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs

65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc.

My Pics

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Fastymz
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Posts: 17145
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001

posted 10-11-2004 06:20 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Fastymz   Click Here to Email Fastymz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gunrocker:
Scoop...I have several friends that took the local law enforcement exam that scored higher on their written exam and physical portion of it, and got turned down for the job because of affirmative action, where the job was given to much lower scoring minorities. Same raw deal.

[This message has been edited by gunrocker (edited 10-11-2004).]


Yeah that just sucks !

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SCOOP

oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs

65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc.

My Pics

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MrWesson22
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Posts: 1249
From: Dacula, GA
Registered: Sep 2000

posted 10-11-2004 07:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MrWesson22   Click Here to Email MrWesson22     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Try getting a job as a white male fresh out of the army with no degree.

I know I'll find something - I'm an intelligent hard worker with common sense (most of the time). It's taking a lot of patience, which is hard when the income stops and the bills do not.

Anybody need a good employee in the northeast Atlanta area (preferably somewhere in the Gwinnett Co. to Athens range)??

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Neal

69 Gulfstream Aqua Grande
351C/4sp
https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/MrWesson22.html

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adragon8u
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Posts: 4211
From: Oceano, Ca.
Registered: Mar 2003

posted 10-11-2004 07:52 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for adragon8u   Click Here to Email adragon8u     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The local college here had an "affirmative action" bake sale last year and the college made them stop. They did it to make a point.
Everything was priced according to your race. If you were white, cookies were $1.00.
if you were black, they were .50 cents.
The college didn't like what they were doing, but the students pointed out that they have been doing the same thing for years with tuition.

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"I started with nothing, and I still have most of it left"
http://webpages.charter.net/adragon8u/mystang

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MrWesson22
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From: Dacula, GA
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posted 10-11-2004 07:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for MrWesson22   Click Here to Email MrWesson22     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by adragon8u:
The local college here had an "affirmative action" bake sale last year and the college made them stop...

I saw that on the news. It makes a strong point. Everyone in this country regardless of race, creed, gender, or religion needs to truly have an EQUAL opportunity.

Why isn't affirmative action based on economic opportunity? A black kid in a typical suburban middle class area is going to get a much better education than a white kid that grew up in the ghetto.

It comes down to money, not race. Of course, nobody asked me.


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Neal

69 Gulfstream Aqua Grande
351C/4sp
https://mustangsandmore.com/ubb/MrWesson22.html

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indyphil
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From: Senoia, G.A. USA
Registered: Jul 2002

posted 10-12-2004 02:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for indyphil   Click Here to Email indyphil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
On the issue of which is more important: Academics or experience I vote for an even split. I have friends with no degree that are smart and good workers, and friends with a degree that are worthless.

But heres the problem, graduation is no garantee of performance, and nor is experience. resumes can be padded. After all this girl who remains in this elevated position no matter how much she fowls things up and slows us down, could leave tomorrow with an awesome resume and get a job elsewhere. Based on both her "education" and the "experience" she has gained here.
Thats why we still need interviews - we use them to "discriminate" between unsuitable candidates who might have a great resume but no common sense. The problem comes when we stop discriminating based on performance and start trying to give certain groups an advantage.

Since I started working for my current employer (6 years ago) I have been offered 2 other jobs by other employers (both higher paying with more elevated position). Clearly money and status do not motivate me to leave my position.

And like I said, id consider voting Republican If I thought that it would be different. I know that it wouldnt. Its not even on the agenda this election. Bush did stand up for the white michigan students a couple of years ago and I applauded him for that - But I think Kerry would do the same. heck even Bill cosby and others can see the problems. Race issues are not central to my life. I feel frustated about it, but not nearly as much as say - Healthcare (or lack of it), or retirement benefits, or tax laws, or education. I was having a bad day when I started this post, but Im not having a bad life.

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'68 coupe, '66 289 C code
engine, edel 600cfm carb, performer intake, dual exhaust http://www.geocities.com/ottouk_77/68mustang.htm

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