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Author
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Topic: PowerHeads?
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Scott H
Gearhead Posts: 901
From: Chicago area
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 01-07-2006 12:54 AM
   
Any thoughts or comments on using the CNC ported PowerHeads on my 66 coupe with 289?Other mods are headers, curved stock distributor with pertronics firing a msd 6a, Comp 270s cam, old school cobra style intake, roller tip rockers, balanced, windage tray.
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V8 Thumper
Gearhead Posts: 4681
From: Phoenix, Arizona
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 01-07-2006 10:26 AM
You'll give up some compression, as most aftermarket heads have larger combustion chambers vs. vintage 289 castings. I'm not real familiar with the PowerHeads, but the aftermarket stuff is such an improvment over stock castings; valve sizing, screw-in studs, port size, valve size, chamber design, overall flow efficency... very little question on which has more potential. Are your pistons flat tops or dished? Compression is heat, and heat is horsepower. Would need to know what style pistons you've got, the chamber volume of both your heads and the PowerHeads, and the compressed thickness of the head gasket you're currently running to make an educated decision on which is 'better'. I had a tough time reaching my target of 10:1 using 61cc chambers, and that was with significantly more swept volume (3.25 stroke vs. 2.87). ------------------
1965 GT coupe, 333ci aluminum headed/solid cammed stroker, four speed, 3.70:1 9" 12.58/110 on street tires, more to come;) All Blue Oval, no blue bottle
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/V8Thumper.html
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Scott H
Gearhead Posts: 901
From: Chicago area
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 01-07-2006 11:58 AM
Here's their website. http://www.powerheads.com/They take stock heads and use a CNC machine to port them, they add larger 1.94 and 1.60 stainless valves, guideplates, springs rated to .550, etc. so they would be comparable to most of the aftermarket heads. The exceptions being these would be a couple hundred dollars less, and they would of course appear original. I'm not trying to make the engine look concours, but I do enjoy the more original looking parts.
PowerHeads seem to have decent flow numbers according to the chart on the website. At .500 lift I would be improving exhaust flow from 106cfm to 170cfm. That's a major improvement!
I would still have my small 54cc combustion chambers , and I could even have them mill my heads a little bit to get more compression.
I have stock flat tops with the 4 valve reliefs that would have come in a A-code 289 4 barrel, and the cylinders are .030.
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Mpcoluv
Gearhead Posts: 1341
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 01-07-2006 12:52 PM
I would buy a good set of aluminum heads instead.
You will be hard pressed to beat a pair of AFR 165cc heads with any 289 casting, no matter how much porting is done.
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1935
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 01-07-2006 02:25 PM
i looked into them a while ago, and they are $995.00, used to be closer to $800, for the early style heads such as you and i would need, and according to my digging you can buy a set of world sr heads complete for $819.76 from summit, and the jr for $939, and edelbrocks performer rpm are $1079. So they arn't that good of a deal.here are some flow graphs i made to compare the heads too http://home.westman.wave.ca/~torino/images/intake.jpg
http://home.westman.wave.ca/~torino/images/exhaust.jpg [This message has been edited by Dubz (edited 01-07-2006).]
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Scott H
Gearhead Posts: 901
From: Chicago area
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 01-07-2006 03:40 PM
Dubz,
thanks for posting that chart, it really helps when you see things compared on the same page.
Looks like the PowerHeads do ok on the exhaust side, but maybe suffer some on the intake side.
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1935
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 01-07-2006 03:44 PM
Yah, and my thought was, if that's cnc'd runners, that's pretty well as good as you can get, where as the others not including the afr's would have room for improvement with porting as they are still as cast.[This message has been edited by Dubz (edited 01-07-2006).]
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 01-07-2006 04:54 PM
Don't waste your money Scott.
Remember that you will still have 40+ year old castings.
WP is a much better alternative.------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,'04 &'05
First NHRA & IHRA 289 automatic Superstock Mustang in the TENS 06-99
First SS/MA in the TENS 04-03
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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Scott H
Gearhead Posts: 901
From: Chicago area
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 01-07-2006 05:54 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
Don't waste your money Scott.
WP is a much better alternative.
Jr or Sr,
Alum or Cast iron. I see a set of Jr iron heads on Ebay, disassembled but complete, currently at $400...are these worth pursuing?
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roger
Gearhead Posts: 335
From: ontario, canada
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 01-07-2006 09:23 PM
Thats all good for you guys in the states, a set of AFR 165;s here, before our 15% tav are $1,950.00!
so, can some one please put some AFR;s under the bed of their motohome & drive up to Toronto, Ont, Canada. i;ll meet you at the first truck stop on the Canadian side!
seriously, is it worth all the time ? $$$ work to re-do a set of 2-barrel Cleveland heads to perk up a fairly radical built 331?
or do i bit the built & watch for a sale on Aluminum heads, which, i might add, never happens here!
I love the idea of aluminum heads just for the wieght savings alone, as I can;t see any other real advantage to them
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n2oMike
Gearhead Posts: 2831
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 01-07-2006 09:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by roger:
Thats all good for you guys in the states, a set of AFR 165;s here, before our 15% tav are $1,950.00!
so, can some one please put some AFR;s under the bed of their motohome & drive up to Toronto, Ont, Canada. i;ll meet you at the first truck stop on the Canadian side!
I sold some new stuff on ebay a while back, and those crazy Canadians were EAGER to pay full ratail! I guess this is why... to get away from those tariffs.  ------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220
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Tom G
Gearhead Posts: 793
From: Bethlehem, Pa USA
Registered: Nov 2001
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posted 01-07-2006 10:09 PM
There is a set of these exact heads on a 5.0 sitting in my garage they made 293 rwhp on a 9.5 E cammed trick flow track heat intaked engine that my son's buddy just bought for 1k. Has 8k miles on it. Also has a set of steeda shaft mount rockers.
I agree with alex you will lose some compression with these heads on a 289. But they are very nicely prepped headwork.
BTW I am trying to talk the kid out of them so I can put them on my 92 vert. He wants to go with afr 185's I offered him 600 with the roller rockers. I know I'm a cheap bast$%^. But he may go for it.------------------
67 Mustang F/B 302 GT-40X FMS engine RPM Air Gap 650 Holley DP Crane 1.7 roller rockers, Edelbrock Performer Nitrous, Dynomax ceramic headers WCZ rated-T5, cable clutch Flows X Pipe 3.89 9". Clearwater Aqua GT Clone Vintage wheel works 40 series 16X8 225 front 255/50 rear drag radials 308 RWHP@5800rpm 300 tq NA 385rwhp 380 w 75 shot 13.11 @111mph
92 VERT triple black 5 speed, 88 GT (FiveOfastback's ride)GT 40 X Track Heat, BBK headers X pipe 5 spd Red and Silver [This message has been edited by Tom G (edited 01-07-2006).]
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 01-07-2006 10:51 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Scott H:
Jr or Sr,
Alum or Cast iron.I see a set of Jr iron heads on Ebay, disassembled but complete, currently at $400...are these worth pursuing?
Iron.
Remember that we can get brand new ones for a little over $800. ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,'04 &'05
First NHRA & IHRA 289 automatic Superstock Mustang in the TENS 06-99
First SS/MA in the TENS 04-03
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
IP: Logged |
Scott H
Gearhead Posts: 901
From: Chicago area
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 01-07-2006 11:13 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
Iron. Remember that we can get brand new ones for a little over $800.
I was hoping you'd say Iron. I'd like the weight savings of aluminum, but I was preferring the iron. And if I were to win that auction and then pay freight, I'd be pretty close to the cost of new ones anyway.
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macxx1
Journeyman Posts: 2
From: Gordonville, MO USA
Registered: Jan 2006
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posted 01-08-2006 12:07 AM
There's a very good 331 buildup article in the latest issue of Mustang and Fords. A very respected builder in California goes into great detail on what to do to make a great engine.He was going "stealth" mode, so used the Powerheads, originally 70 302 2bbl heads!
Course he did some additional work on them.
With a fairly short hydr roller with pretty good lift he got 400/400! but that was with lots of little tricks and detail work. I didn't see the article on their website yet, might be just a bit. www.mustangandfords.com
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JCQuinn@work
Gearhead Posts: 935
From: Lakewood, CO, USA
Registered: Jun 2001
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posted 01-08-2006 01:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by roger:
Thats all good for you guys in the states, a set of AFR 165;s here, before our 15% tav are $1,950.00!
so, can some one please put some AFR;s under the bed of their motohome & drive up to Toronto, Ont, Canada. i;ll meet you at the first truck stop on the Canadian side!
seriously, is it worth all the time ? $$$ work to re-do a set of 2-barrel Cleveland heads to perk up a fairly radical built 331?
or do i bit the built & watch for a sale on Aluminum heads, which, i might add, never happens here!
I love the idea of aluminum heads just for the wieght savings alone, as I can;t see any other real advantage to them
I used to know some Canadian racers that got around the tarrif by driving into the states (they were making the drive anyway to race). When they came down they brought an old used pair of heads that were on their list of parts they declared at the border. When they got here they would buy the new heads and sell/give the old heads to someone here. When they went home there were a pair of heads on their parts list just like when they came down, voila, no duty. John
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1935
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 01-08-2006 02:01 PM
If you just drive down across the border and pick stuff up there is no duty, but you'd still have to pay your taxes when you bring them across.
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 01-08-2006 02:13 PM
Bottom line is that no matter what you do to a OEM set of stock 289-302 heads, they will never flow as good as a set of WP or AFR or Edelbrock or FRPP or Canfield or TFS.
You all gotta trust me on this one as I, Mark T. and Everett Hill have more $$$$$ and energy in stock heads than just about any 100 other racers combined. 
No brag, just fact! 
------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,'04 &'05
First NHRA & IHRA 289 automatic Superstock Mustang in the TENS 06-99
First SS/MA in the TENS 04-03
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1935
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 01-08-2006 05:15 PM
Would your opinion still hold for the early 351W castings Alex?
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 01-08-2006 09:29 PM
69 351W is still the best head that ever came on a SBF from the factory.
But even the best port job in the world and biggest valves will not give you a cost effective performance increase when compared to todays available aftermarket race heads.------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,'04 &'05
First NHRA & IHRA 289 automatic Superstock Mustang in the TENS 06-99
First SS/MA in the TENS 04-03
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
IP: Logged |
buening
Gearhead Posts: 175
From: Decatur, IL
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 01-09-2006 08:55 AM
A fellow by the username of Snugs on the VMF had a pretty bad experience with them. When they did the port job, they went to far and went into the water jacket. He still has yet to receive any replacements, his money back, or even a return phone call. Not sure but maybe the customer service went down the drain.------------------
1970 Grabber Blue Mach 1 H-code
1970 Fastback
2003 Torch Red Mustang
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blackford
Journeyman Posts: 51
From: Corona, Ca
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted 01-09-2006 12:12 PM
quote:
Originally posted by macxx1:
There's a very good 331 buildup article in the latest issue of Mustang and Fords. A very respected builder in California goes into great detail on what to do to make a great engine.He was going "stealth" mode, so used the Powerheads, originally 70 302 2bbl heads!
Course he did some additional work on them.
With a fairly short hydr roller with pretty good lift he got 400/400! but that was with lots of little tricks and detail work. I didn't see the article on their website yet, might be just a bit. www.mustangandfords.com
I built a 331 a few years ago using a set of self-ported '70 351w heads with 1/94/1.6 SS valves. I also custom designed the reciprocating assy because, at the time, I didn't want a piston that had intersecting oil ring and wrist pin. I used 289 H beam rods and a 383w piston (KB322). Anyhow, just had it dyno'd since I converted to a T5z and it layed down 335 RWHP @ 6300 and 337 RWTQ @ 3900 (SAE correction). Do a FWHP conversion using 16% drivetrain loss and that's 399 FWHP and 401 FWTQ. Ported iron heads are capable done right. It doesn't take magic to get 400/400 using ported Ford heads on a 331 (OK...I might have missed HP by 1 or not...besides I wouldn't be surprised that they use STD correction in the article), just attention to detail and a set of complementary parts.
------------------
Tracy Blackford
'65 "Black" ford FB, 331 with H beam 289 rods, KB322s, fully prepped 351w heads, 282S cam, T5z, 3.50 9" posi. Many Suspension and handling mods. 4.5 year restomod project completed in June '04. 335 RWHP @ 6300.
[This message has been edited by blackford (edited 01-13-2006).]
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roger
Gearhead Posts: 335
From: ontario, canada
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 01-13-2006 03:10 PM
Alex is right. i have a set of 66 289 heads that have been maasaged everyway possible & flow very well & make HP, $1,540.00 Later!
I still have a set of old tech. heads!
Even at 2K the AFR's make so much more sense
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Scott H
Gearhead Posts: 901
From: Chicago area
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 01-13-2006 03:21 PM
I think this summer I'll be looking for a set of World Products Windsor Jr.'s.
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cobraii351
Journeyman Posts: 73
From: Altoona, PA
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 01-14-2006 02:35 PM
Alex, Stupid question, I currently run a set of D0oe casting that were ported, and a C9OX "shelby" intake on a 351. How would I go about still using this intake if I went with anything other that the "early" windsor factory castings? (the 4 extra bolt holes)
Thanks,
Tim
[This message has been edited by cobraii351 (edited 01-14-2006).]
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cobraii351
Journeyman Posts: 73
From: Altoona, PA
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 01-19-2006 08:14 PM
Anyone?
Thanks,
Tim
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clevelandstyle
Gearhead Posts: 1309
From: central Indiana
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 01-19-2006 09:03 PM
I'm not a Windsor expert, but years ago I ran an intake with the 4 extra bolt holes on heads that didn't have them. I filled the intake bolt holes with epoxy and ignored them. It worked for me.  ------------------
Ben
Grabber Green '70 Mach I 351C 4V
Robbin Egg Blue '79 Fairmont 408C 4V, 10.50 127 MPH
Prowler Purple '87 T'bird Turbo Coupe
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 27499
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 01-19-2006 09:41 PM
You just plug them with some allen screws. ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,'04 &'05
First NHRA & IHRA 289 automatic Superstock Mustang in the TENS 06-99
First SS/MA in the TENS 04-03
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
IP: Logged |
cobraii351
Journeyman Posts: 73
From: Altoona, PA
Registered: Jun 2000
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posted 01-23-2006 05:41 PM
Thanks!
Tim
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