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Author
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Topic: Car is dead, ideas?
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1890
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 10-21-2005 04:43 PM
   
While sorting out some bugs with the motor i had a mechanic friend come over and take the car for a rip to see what he thought the problem could be, as my description i guess wasn't cutting it. Anyway, car drove allright for him until it ran out of gas, ran it right dry, went and got gas, filled the tank, and then the carb through the vent tubes, she'd turn over but wouldn't go, after a few tries it started and ran off the gas in the carb until it ran out of fuel, this was repeated several times and after descovering a fuel filter was fairly plugged we ended up with gas in the line up to the carb.Now however the car won't start, it's getting gas, and air, but the spark is a red/orange not a white/blue like it should be. Tried swapping out the coil but the car still won't start, both coils still read fine with an ohm meter, tried charging the battery thinking it maybe wasn't enough juice, nothing...my thought is that i might be the ignition box, but i would figure that it wouldn't spark at all if it was that. Plugs when pulled are black, but not wet. Valvetrain is moving, as is the rotor in the distributor, starter is cranking it over as fast as usual, and nothing has been changed since it was running and starting fine. Any guesses? i'm assuming it was from prolonged starting
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Scott (69Mach)
Gearhead Posts: 787
From: Walnut Creek, CA USA
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 10-21-2005 04:59 PM
I'd start with battery posts and ground wires...
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1890
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 10-22-2005 01:09 PM
Checked and re-checked, ground and bat terminals arn't the problem.
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fastford34
Gearhead Posts: 1008
From: penna
Registered: May 2002
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posted 10-22-2005 04:49 PM
does the carb have an internal filter? it may be blocked. since you said you have gas to the carb does not mean its getting thru the carb. just a guess.------------------
34 coupe powered by 351 c 4v
keith
it`s nice to be important but more IMPORTANT to be nice.
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1890
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 10-22-2005 05:27 PM
The fuel bowls are full, as you can see through the sight plug, and when you snap the throttle open you can see a spray of fuel.Might rip the carb apart just to be sure there isn't anything blocking anything, but it's getting fuel, dribbling gas into the intake gets no different of a reaction, so pretty sure it's not a lack of fuel. [This message has been edited by Dubz (edited 10-22-2005).]
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68 Coop
Gearhead Posts: 2911
From: Mesquite, NV. 89027 M&M# 4256
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 10-22-2005 05:45 PM
Dubz, is there any way to by-pass the box to make sure it's not weakening the spark???
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1890
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 10-22-2005 06:13 PM
quote:
Originally posted by 68 Coop:
Dubz, is there any way to by-pass the box to make sure it's not weakening the spark???
not sure?? wondering about buying a replacement box, i see napa has a cheapo for $25, or another, i'm assuming better one for $58. Could buy one to get by until i get the MSD box i've been saving up for, incase i were to buy the MSD box and find out that it doesn't cure the problem, then i've changed something, and chances of me wiring it perfect first time can't be good  Then there is just more to diagnose/check over. was hoping to leave the purchasing till after i had checked all the free stuff, but i guess i allready have Found in one of my manuals a section on testing the wiring connected to the module to eliminate the wires or connections as the problem, so gonna try that out today [This message has been edited by Dubz (edited 10-23-2005).]
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TomP
Gearhead Posts: 6007
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99
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posted 10-23-2005 10:46 PM
check wires for corroded terminals, pull apart the plugs to the box and distributor and check each cennection including the hi-tension coil wire.
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1890
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 10-23-2005 11:37 PM
Did that today, everything seems allright, all voltages and resistances read as they say in the book...so i don't think it's the wiring to the box. The terminals on the battery seem to be free from any corrosion, so unless the wires went bad from excessive cranking..?Would fouled plugs cause this kind of problem? What exactly are fouled plugs? I've swapped out everything spark related other than the ignition box, and the plugs, and i could toss in the old set of spark plugs i replaced these ones with last month...before buying a new box, if that is even a possibility [This message has been edited by Dubz (edited 10-23-2005).]
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68 Coop
Gearhead Posts: 2911
From: Mesquite, NV. 89027 M&M# 4256
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 10-23-2005 11:52 PM
If they were dropped before you got them, then they could have cracks the porcalin(sp). Or the electrode. I would swap them, since they are fairly cheap in price, and you will also eliminate them as a possibility.
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1890
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 10-24-2005 04:42 PM
they have worked fine up until now, with the excessive cranking...so don't think they would have been cracked or defective, but i'll try swapping them out anyway.
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Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 20708
From: Reno Nv USA M&M#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 10-24-2005 04:53 PM
If your plugs are wet change them.------------------
Mustangsandmore member #351w
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 BIG Boss hood scoop My Pics "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it and then misapplying the wrong remedies." Groucho Marx
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1890
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 10-24-2005 05:01 PM
they are not wet, just have a carbon coatingcalled around to ask for prices today, cheapo is $43 CAD, regular is $112 CAD. the economy is "milage plus", regular is "echlin", since i am not planning on using it for years i don't think i need the more expensive...or is that brand that bad? [This message has been edited by Dubz (edited 10-24-2005).]
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Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 20708
From: Reno Nv USA M&M#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 10-24-2005 05:37 PM
I'd change the plugs before anything else. It's cheap and easy to do.  ------------------
Mustangsandmore member #351w
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 BIG Boss hood scoop My Pics "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it and then misapplying the wrong remedies." Groucho Marx
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1890
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 10-24-2005 06:27 PM
I'll give her a try
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1890
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 10-25-2005 05:12 PM
Took the ignition box into Napa to have them check it after a bright friend told me i should try that. It doesn't work (could be them trying to sell me a new one), so i got the better of the 2 as that's all they can get for some reason, but they are cutting me a deal since they can't get in the cheapo.
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1890
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 10-26-2005 08:54 PM
well, swapping plugs, that didn't help, swapping boxes didn't work, it will sort of sputter if you spray carb cleaner into the intake, so at least it's sort of starting...better than it was.did however notice that there is fuel spraying up out of the primary sides vent tube, and fuel seems to spraying up out of the carb, not down into....what on earth would cause that?
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Stang72
Gearhead Posts: 283
From: Arkel,Zuid-Holland,Holland
Registered: Jan 2003
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posted 10-27-2005 10:23 AM
floaters might be stuck causing the carb to overflow so its getting to much gas..try hitting the carb gently with a plastic hammer, maybe the floaters will set themself free, otherwise take off the feulbowls and see what the problem is..
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1890
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 10-29-2005 05:44 PM
Took off the fuel bowls yet again, cleaned up the needle and seat, and made sure nothing was sticking in it's operation.Still have a fuel out the vent tube problem when the throttle blades are closed. When the throttle is open, i get huffs of air up through the carb. Checked compression with a compression gauge and the most i can squeeze out #1 is about 40psi, tried #2 and it's lower, that's all i tried so far would i have burnt up the valves running it out of fuel, or would it maybe be timing chain? [This message has been edited by Dubz (edited 10-31-2005).]
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1890
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 10-31-2005 08:31 PM
allrighty, checked cylinders 3 through 6 tonight (7 and 8 are hard to get to with the headers) and all of them are way low, all below 50, and all around the same mark. not sure of a value as the numbers stop at 50, i'd say 40ish for all if i had to guess.So conclusion would be that it would be timing chain, as it would be EXTREMELY unlikely for me to burn up a valve in 6 cylinders, way more likely that a 30 year old original equipment timing chain with 63,xxx miles on it slipped a tooth. Would i be correct in my assumption? ------------------
1974 Gran Torino(351W/c6)
My Page
Well it has primer on it now
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1890
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 11-03-2005 11:06 PM
checked for the valve events compared to tdc on the balancer, and they were WAY WAY off.Took off the timing cover, and found that the timing chain was tired tired. It has an inch deflection on the one side while having an inch and a half on the other, it probably even has more, but the chain can't flex in anymore than it does because the links won't allow it to. I'm amazed the car even ran, and i'm pretty sure i found the reason for my troubles beforehand [This message has been edited by Dubz (edited 11-03-2005).]
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68 Coop
Gearhead Posts: 2911
From: Mesquite, NV. 89027 M&M# 4256
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 11-04-2005 05:41 AM
Well, at least you found the problem. I'm happy it's nothing more major Dubz.------------------
William "It's not the size of the dog in the fight, it's the size of the fight in the dog."
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1890
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 11-07-2005 10:34 PM
Well just got the timing cover back on, water pump, alternator, and just have the powersteering pump and fuel lines to re-connect, and then hopefully it will firei marked where the cam was at 0 on the balancer before disassembly, and with the balancer off i could see it's about 80 degrees out from where the balancer reads 0, no wonder it wouldn't fire.
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1890
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 11-08-2005 06:14 PM
It's alive!!!!!!started it, and it was making a hell of a racket, i was like, something smells awful hot. Me being the smart man i am, forgot to fill the rad up with coolant, quieted down quite nice once it was filled. and of course we get snow today, so i can't even go drive the car now :P [This message has been edited by Dubz (edited 11-08-2005).]
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Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 20708
From: Reno Nv USA M&M#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 11-08-2005 06:34 PM
Good job finding and fixing the problem.  ------------------
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs HOOD HACKERS DELIGHT!
My Pics
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