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Author
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Topic: 426 Cleveland suggestions
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bbjay351
Gearhead Posts: 308
From: Festus, Mo Us
Registered: May 2004
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posted 10-21-2005 12:54 PM
 
Well, in the garage full of engines I have, I think I decided on one. I bought that book, "How to build a small block stroker". It's got a lot of good info in it. I want to build one of my 351C into a stroker. I wish I had a set of aussie heads. I do have however a set of 2V and 4V heads to choose from. This will be a mostly track, but every once in awhile street engine. I read one of moneymakers articles in the 335 Series posts. I just need some of the details. Like, how much of the block to fill, cam suggestions, stroker kits. I want a full roller motor, and have most of the valvetrain, minus the cam and lifters. Any hp numbers anyone has, or experience is greatly appriceated. Also, the new Edelbrock heads, are they any good?[This message has been edited by bbjay351 (edited 10-21-2005).]
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clevelandstyle
Gearhead Posts: 1558
From: central Indiana
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 10-21-2005 01:14 PM
Concerning heads, go with the 4Vs on a stroker. A 2V or aussie(2V) ain't gonna cut it for a track engine. Edelbrock heads are gloified 2Vs. Not worth it. I got my stroker kit from Mark McKeown. Well satisfied. ------------------
Ben
Grabber Green '70 Mach I 351C 4V
Robbin Egg Blue '79 Fairmont 408C 4V, 10.50 127 MPH
Prowler Purple '87 T'bird Turbo Coupe
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bbjay351
Gearhead Posts: 308
From: Festus, Mo Us
Registered: May 2004
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posted 10-21-2005 04:11 PM
Thanks for the info. Have you ever had yours dyno'd, or to the track? I've got the drivetrain to handle 9's. I am running currently a 351C 40 over with 2V heads fully ported and polished. 600" cam, roller rockers, a C4 with a 4500 converter, 9" with 4:56 and 29" tall M/T ET streets. The car does well, but want more bang for the buck so to speak. I've always wanted to make a stroker out of a cleveland and have my chance to do that now with a spare block i have.[This message has been edited by bbjay351 (edited 10-21-2005).]
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clevelandstyle
Gearhead Posts: 1558
From: central Indiana
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 10-21-2005 06:14 PM
Never dynoed it but I run mid 10s in a 3200lb. car on pump gas. I'm looking to get a bit more serious over the winter.  ------------------
Ben
Grabber Green '70 Mach I 351C 4V
Robbin Egg Blue '79 Fairmont 408C 4V, 10.50 127 MPH
Prowler Purple '87 T'bird Turbo Coupe
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Dad Vishus
Gearhead Posts: 1153
From: Moscow, Iowa, USA
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 10-21-2005 09:18 PM
I don't claim to be an expert by any means, but how do you plan to get 426 inches in a Cleveland?4 inch stroke and 4 inch bore is around 402, I believe. 4.030 bore makes what, like 408? I frankly haven't seen anyone that I know of go over 4 inch stroke, and not many that went that much. If you are really running a .040 over bore now in a Cleveland block, you are living right!  We found .030 over to be an adventure when making a fair amount of power. Lots of cracked cylinder walls. Many sleeved blocks to prove it. If you really are wanting to make serious power, I'd sure think about a different block. Ported 4V heads are hard to beat! JMHO  ------------------
63 Falcon 377 Cleveland stroker Flying Toilet alchohol injection. 6.19 @ 110 MPH 1/8 mile
2002 Ranger FX4 daily driver
2000 F350 PSD Crew cab dually - Like commuting in a B52!!
98 US Cargo Phantom II 28'
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Dad Vishus
Gearhead Posts: 1153
From: Moscow, Iowa, USA
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 10-21-2005 09:39 PM
BTW, the bottoms aren't real strong either.My 377 had a serious main web crack last winter. We had to do up another block. KVs motor broke one side of the web out completely once due to a valve and a piston trying to occupy the same space. The crack in mine was probably due to many seasons of race stress. The rotating assembly is internally balanced and all good parts. Crower crank, Oliver rods, and JE custom pistons, so bad internals can't be at fault. That assembly has been raced for 10 years. My block is filled up to the water pump ports. The old one was too. Can't hurt the strength. I don't know how much power my 377 makes but the car weighs around 2800 with me in it and it has gone 10.03 at 135 in the quarter. Thats with a 4.86 gear and 32 inch tall tires. Turns around 7400 at the lights. I think it would be a little quicker now in good air. Anyway, hopefully that gives you some usable info. ------------------
63 Falcon 377 Cleveland stroker Flying Toilet alchohol injection. 6.19 @ 110 MPH 1/8 mile
2002 Ranger FX4 daily driver
2000 F350 PSD Crew cab dually - Like commuting in a B52!!
98 US Cargo Phantom II 28'
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bbjay351
Gearhead Posts: 308
From: Festus, Mo Us
Registered: May 2004
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posted 10-22-2005 02:14 PM
The bore on the 426 is 4.03, stroke 4.170, rod length 6.00 chevy rod, and custom crank all by speed-o-motive. My motor now only has about two hundred miles on it after rebuild. I don't have any heat problems and have had it to 8400 rpms four times at the track in a different car. I know moneymaker said something in his article about pouring the block half way up to increase strength, but so far so good on the block holding together. The other cleveland block I have is a virgin, hasn't been bored yet and is in perfect condition out of a 70 mustang. I know the aftermarket is just about to catch up to us cleveland guys as far as possible aftermarket blocks. But so far that's just hear say.
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Hans olsson
Gearhead Posts: 936
From: Sweden
Registered: Apr 2000
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posted 10-22-2005 02:47 PM
You have everything to gain and nothing to lose by filling the block as high as possible. I know that it adds much needed strength to the block. You will not regret it.Hans ------------------
- VIN 1F05M139343
- 71 Mach 1 Ram-Air
- 351C 4V 285 HP
- F-G/Stock Aut
- Stockers are way cool!
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 7251
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 10-24-2005 10:42 AM
quote:
Originally posted by bbjay351:
.. stroke 4.170, rod length 6.00 chevy rod,
If it were me, there is no way in h*ll I would ever build that motor. The stroke is too long and the rod is too short, especially considering you are using a 9.2 deck block. And even with the rod/stroke combo, the compression height is going to be somewhere around 1.1 inches, maybe sligtly less. That's too short for my liking, especially in a motor with weak cylinders that really don't like poor rod stroke ratios. It loads the side of the cylinder too much leading to cracked cylinders (and the more compression you have, the more crack prone it will be.) Half filling will help, but it wont stop it. I cracked 3 cylinders in a motor that was half filled, and it was a stock rod motor that was 13.8-1. 4v heads love rpm, and that long stroke isn't going to want rpm (my 402 inch motor would make optimum power with a bigger cam and spinning it 7500 rpm.) I would be scared to turn the 426 over 6200, and that's even if the block was filled to within an inch of the deck. And with the block filled that much, the motor wont be happy on the street at all.
If a big motor is really desired, I would be more inclined to building a 4" stroke motor and sacraficing a few inches for durability. And preferably, I would actually build something with even less stroke, something around 3.75 or 3.85. There's a reason you don't see anyone at the track with a 420+ inch cleveland in a stock block.
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Mpcoluv
Gearhead Posts: 1421
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 10-24-2005 04:10 PM
Lets say that you had the strongest Cleveland block ever built, you still dont have much room for the ring package.
As KidV said, the compression height will be down in the 1.115" range. This a a real problem because the intake valve relief is cut down the outside edge of the piston about .250 to .300", leaving you little room for the ring package......
If someone ever did build a 426 cleveland like you describe, the oil ring and possibly the second ring would intersect the wrist pin hole. You would have to have custom pistons with wrist pin buttons that contain the ring grooves.
Several people have built 393Cs and 408Cs.
I have never heard of a sucessful build of this combo.
The general consensus is that 4" is the longest stroke practical with a 9.2" block, and 4.100" with a 9.5" block.
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bbjay351
Gearhead Posts: 308
From: Festus, Mo Us
Registered: May 2004
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posted 10-25-2005 12:24 AM
This is the info I was looking for. I can build engines pretty good, but the math is what I am kind of poor at. Learning bit by bit, and experience is what matters most. I think with this knowledge I may go ahead and build my big block instead. I just loved the thought of a big inch cleveland. But you know how the saying goes, wish in one hand and **** in another and see which one fills up first..... Thank you guys very much, helps cut the cost and headache later. This is why I love this forum.
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Dad Vishus
Gearhead Posts: 1153
From: Moscow, Iowa, USA
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 10-26-2005 11:02 PM
Just for consideration sake, how bout a 377?A stock crank can be offset ground to make that and uses a chebbie journal size so off the shelf rods will be easy to aquire. Do or have done a good port job on a set of 4V heads with a moderate roller cam and you'd have a reliable motor that will improve your performance substantially. Just a thought. ------------------
63 Falcon 377 Cleveland stroker Flying Toilet alchohol injection. 6.19 @ 110 MPH 1/8 mile
2002 Ranger FX4 daily driver
2000 F350 PSD Crew cab dually - Like commuting in a B52!!
98 US Cargo Phantom II 28'
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bbjay351
Gearhead Posts: 308
From: Festus, Mo Us
Registered: May 2004
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posted 10-26-2005 11:20 PM
You know, I just saw your motor with the times at the bottom of your post. Wow, that's not bad. You'll have to let me in on your secret to getting those numbers out of that motor. A friend of mine has one of those Ron's flying toilet bowl set up that I've wanted to try, but never knew if it could be used on the street. If you don't mind giving me some ideas on what kind of set up to go with. I have the 4V heads already ported and polished, just need the cam and lifters, and do want a roller. Thanks so much for the info you've given already. Hope you can steer me in the right direction....[This message has been edited by bbjay351 (edited 10-26-2005).]
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 7251
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 10-27-2005 07:33 AM
How fast are you looking to go? A stock rod cleveland with 4v heads and on alchy will easily run in the 10's with a good chassis and convertor. If the convertor is really good and if the chassis will handly it, a stock rod cleveland will get you into the 9's (been there, done that.) Granted, it's much easier to go fast with the bigger motor, but it also costs more initially.
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grego37
Gearhead Posts: 411
From: los angeles,CA,USA
Registered: May 2004
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posted 10-27-2005 02:58 PM
351c blocks are notorious for being thin in the cyl. walls.
If seen some that weren't safe at .030" over
Highly reccomend having the cyl. walls sonic tested, or have all cyl. sleeved.
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bbjay351
Gearhead Posts: 308
From: Festus, Mo Us
Registered: May 2004
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posted 10-27-2005 06:12 PM
Kid, I would love to be running high nines with the car. I've got the drivetrain to handle it, a 4500 custom converter, 9" with 4:56's. The chasis is on it's way to being ready for that but honestly not there yet. It's just amazing how that motor runs with the little cubes.
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bbjay351
Gearhead Posts: 308
From: Festus, Mo Us
Registered: May 2004
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posted 10-27-2005 06:52 PM
What do you think of this kind of combo?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/393C-S treet-Fighter-Stroker-Kit-351C-Cleveland-351_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ34202QQitemZ4584963295QQrdZ1I know it's not a 377 but if it's too much cubic inch, I will definately go with the 377. Thanks for all the advice. [This message has been edited by bbjay351 (edited 10-27-2005).]
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 7251
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 10-27-2005 07:35 PM
quote:
Originally posted by bbjay351:
a 4500 custom converter,
Too tight. Clevelands love loose convertors. The C4 convertor I had behind my stock rod motor would flash 6200 in good air. When I had it built, it would go around 5400. The looser they made it, the faster the car ran. The 'glide convertor my dad has behind his 377 is somewhere around 5800-6000 if I remember correctly. The 'glide convertor behind my 402 clevor is 5500. With my C4 convertor, I ran consistant 10.80's with a 2v headed motor that was only 10-1 compression.
The rods are too short in that Ebay motor. It's not too many inches, but I don't like the combo. Like was mentioned, C's have thin cylinder walls. Boring them .030 isn't an issue if the motor is at least half filled, and has light rods/pistons and a decent rod stroke ratio. I'm not a huge fan of rod/stroke ratio for making power, but where I beleive it comes into play in a cleveland is how much stress it places on the side of the cylinder. I beleive the worse the rod/stroke ratio, the more stress is placed on the thrust side of the the bore. Add to that a heavy piston which normally accompanies a poor r/s ratio, and you have a great recipe for cracking cylinder walls.
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bbjay351
Gearhead Posts: 308
From: Festus, Mo Us
Registered: May 2004
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posted 10-27-2005 07:43 PM
Ok, so 377 is the ticket for me. Should I take the crank in and have it offset ground, or just get a kit? Also, what manifold are you guys running? Carb or injection? Cam size? I've also been thinking of going with that ron's flying toilet set up. Kid, I really appreciate the info you've given. I'm getting that excited itch to get in the garage and get to work, but gotta do that homework thing..... Are the rods in that 377 chevy rods, or just a chevy journal? I know, a lot of questions, but can't help it. I'm like a kid in a candy store right now
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 7251
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 10-27-2005 08:25 PM
Dad's combo has chevy rods in it, 6.125" long. I think most of the 'kits' normally come with 6" rods. Dad's wasn't a kit, it has all good stuff in it; Crower steel crank, Oliver billet rods, C&A custom pistons, etc. We both were running a Strip Dominator intake, and both cars were on alchy. Dad's has a Ron's Flyig Toilet, mine had an old BG alchy carb (using it on the 402 now.)
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bbjay351
Gearhead Posts: 308
From: Festus, Mo Us
Registered: May 2004
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posted 10-27-2005 08:33 PM
That's gonna be an adventure trying to find a strip dominator now days. But, I'll start doing some ebay searching and see what I come up with. Thanks again Kid. How are the offenhauser intakes for those?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/FORD-351-Cleveland-intake_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ34198QQitemZ4584834718QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW[This message has been edited by bbjay351 (edited 10-27-2005).]
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 7251
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 10-27-2005 08:42 PM
I've never tried one, but I've only heard bad things. The Torker isn't a bad intake, it's just not as good of a race intake as the SD. The SD can be found, just usually not thru ebay. But you will still probably end up paying $350-400 for it. You might be able to get one now from someone that think's they are upgrading to one of the new aussie intakes.
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Dad Vishus
Gearhead Posts: 1153
From: Moscow, Iowa, USA
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 10-27-2005 09:41 PM
Heres a few more tech specs. I was messin around in the trailer and garage tonight so I dug out what I could find for documentation.The pistons, which the PO/builder told me were JEs, I'm positive, apparently are Wisecos. No big deal there! The compression ht. is 1.215 That puts the bottom ring over the wrist pin hole a little. They are 13:1 compression. The rods, as KV said, are 6.125 and the stroke is 3.7 inches. The new block this year (gently used) had to be decked down to 5 in the hole. I'm pretty sure I got the right cam card. I was sure there were 3 Crower cards, but could only find 2. The one I found that I think is right is 297/304 duration with .661/635 lift at 106 lobe separation. At .050 lobe lift, its 262/268 duration and .382/.367 lift. With the small amount of deck height, the valve clearance was only .090 with a gasket. The cam was advanced 4 degrees I believe to get that much clearance. The cam isn't very big for a roller, but makes power up to 7400-7500 RPM which is what it sees in the traps on the quarter. I don't know how much the heads are cut, but some I'm sure. When the thing hits about 7000 on the big end, its almost like it kicks into another gear. It really starts pulling. 7500 is there right now! I run the thing really conserative, just like the PO did. Shift at 6800 and a 4200 chip in the 2 step. The convertor will flash to around 6000. As to running a toilet on the street, I think it would be iffy. First, alky from the track or a drum that you buy hasn't had any road use tax paid on it. If the DOT or a cop got wise to that it would be big trouble. I don't know where you could get it with the tax applied if you wanted to. Second, the fuel cell about has to be in the front. The pump has to be fed by gravity from a short distance. My fuel line is maybe 18 inches long. I have seen electric pumps used to feed them from the rear of the car, but that adds alot of cost cause it takes 350 - 400 GPM to feed it, I'm sure. Injection uses alot of fuel. A front cell due to the location can't be very big. What I might consider is 2 carbs, one for gas and one for alchy, that could be swapped quickly. Again, pricey, but if you really want to drive it on the street......
Roller lifters have a kindof resticted life span also. Mine are Iskys that can be rebuilt for about half the cost of new ones. About 2 full race seasons is the limit.
The springs on the 377 are Crower triples that are no longer available. I got by this time with re-using them, maybe due to conservative RPMs. I got about 4 more used sets with the car so I'm hoping I can put together one more set when the time comes. My headers are 2 inch primaries with 3.5 inch collectors. It sounds pretty good. Hopefully this info will give you something to consider. I really like my 377. Its reliable and gets it on!
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63 Falcon 377 Cleveland stroker Flying Toilet alchohol injection. 6.19 @ 110 MPH 1/8 mile
2002 Ranger FX4 daily driver
2000 F350 PSD Crew cab dually - Like commuting in a B52!!
98 US Cargo Phantom II 28'
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Dad Vishus
Gearhead Posts: 1153
From: Moscow, Iowa, USA
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 10-27-2005 10:21 PM
A couple more things:We run MSD billet distributors. Adjustable and reliable. Fuel usage seems to be different for carb and injection setups. I fueled KVs car for years and it would use around a gallon for an eighth mile pass. My Toilet uses close to 2 gallons. My 3.5 gallon cell is just enough for a quarter mile pass and not alot more. Those numbers on my signature were the very first week-end I owned the car. It was in mid October and the corrected altitude was like -600 feet. Truly mine shaft air. That was my first real pass in the thing and it scared the crap out me! On a usual warm weather day, it will run 6.30s most of the time at 107 - 108 MPH. Fast enough for an old geezer.  I must say though that I'd like to see what KVs 402 would do in my car. With the tube chassis, big headers would be easy and the toilet would work well on it. We could step on it quite a bit harder in my tube car. I'd think high 5s would be quite possible. ------------------
63 Falcon 377 Cleveland stroker Flying Toilet alchohol injection. 6.19 @ 110 MPH 1/8 mile
2002 Ranger FX4 daily driver
2000 F350 PSD Crew cab dually - Like commuting in a B52!!
98 US Cargo Phantom II 28'
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bbjay351
Gearhead Posts: 308
From: Festus, Mo Us
Registered: May 2004
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posted 10-27-2005 10:32 PM
Yeah, I went to the members photo page and saw your cars. Very very nice. I have been throwing the quesiton around in my head for about a year now whether or not to chasis the car. I love the weight loss, but most of all the room. I just don't have the money to do that yet. Right now, my 69 fastback is a stock body car. I'm putting a cage in it this winter, and frame ties. Coil overs in the rear and a mustang II style front is the plan. I figure with that done, I might be able to chasis the front of the car but not sure yet. My neigbors that got me into racing have a spare toilet sitting on the shelf and said I could use it to see what I thought. They picked up three tenths in the eigth just by switching to the injection. But I just can't get over the numbers. They run a chebbie 498ci BB and you have the cleveland. Their car and yours run about the same numbers now. Theirs isn't a chasis car though, it's a full body car with a glass hood and deck lid. Just very impressed with your car and would love to duplicate that engine for my next season. Gotta get it done before I take the vows next june...... I checked out crower, childs & alberts, and olivers sites to get a price. WOW!!!! Wasn't expecting 1400 for rods, but you get what you pay for. I did wonder which rod it is though. I looked at the small chevy 6.125" rod but they had a 2.10 and a 2.00 crank pin. Which one will I need? And what bolts? I realize with a full bodied car, I won't get those numbers but if I'm even in the 6's I'd be happy.
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bbjay351
Gearhead Posts: 308
From: Festus, Mo Us
Registered: May 2004
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posted 10-27-2005 11:38 PM
Tom, you don't know how much I appriciate that info. My friends do use the rear cell to feed the front cell on theirs but like you said, it takes a big pump that they already had on the car. I've got a 12 gallon cell now in the rear with 5/8 line feeding up to the regulator and braches off to the carb. It works great now but I know I'll have to do some adding to make the toilet bowl work. I'll probably just leave the existing fuel set up there and when I want to drive on the street just hookup the other lines to a carb. I was wondering, would you think that it would hurt to use eagle rods instead of the olivers? Just curious.
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Dad Vishus
Gearhead Posts: 1153
From: Moscow, Iowa, USA
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 10-27-2005 11:58 PM
I'm not positive about pin size, I'd think the 2.00. I saw the oliver card in the trailer but I didn't bring it in the house.The Wiseco card says the kit number is 4103. The wrist pin diameter is .927. I would talk to the guys Clevelandstyle recommended for a kit. If its good parts, they can get you set up with the whole rotating assembly. It could be internally balanced, too. That would be a plus. They might be able to supply an offset ground stock crank which would be more reasonbly priced. If I had to build my motor now, I wouldn't be able to duplicate it due to cost. Eagle stuff seems to be priced right and from what I hear from my Chebbie buddies, reasonably reliable. I can't say I've ever looked at thier crank availability for a Cleveland, but with SVO blocks being out there with Cleveland main journal size, they could have something. Like KV said, a stock rod Cleveland can be made to run 9s. Just be selective about the piston weight and use good bolts. Do some research on it before you invest a bunch of money. There are lots of combos possible that would do what you want. If you haven't been there, try Dale Wilch's web site. He has lots of used stuff and occasionally has some rare Ford pieces. He's in Kansas City. Racingjunk.com is an interesting source also. Might accidentally run into a Strip Dominator. Ya never know
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63 Falcon 377 Cleveland stroker Flying Toilet alchohol injection. 6.19 @ 110 MPH 1/8 mile
2002 Ranger FX4 daily driver
2000 F350 PSD Crew cab dually - Like commuting in a B52!!
98 US Cargo Phantom II 28'
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 7251
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 10-28-2005 07:45 AM
My car is basically a back-halfed '69. It still uses all the stock type front suspension pieces and has shock towers. My car is actually lighter than DV's car by a couple of hundred pounds without ballast(but I have just over 100 lbs of ballast bolted in it now.) Both cars are all steel except for the hood, but mine has all lexan windows. Since mine isn't a full tube chassis it has less bars than DV's, so that probably explains it being lighter. Mine really needs some more bars though, it needs to be stiffer to keep it from flexing so much which should pick up some 60'.Eagle rods are ok, but they are kind of heavy. Most of the stroker cranks use the 2.10 journal rods. I have an offset ground cleveland crank I bought a couple of years ago, and it has 2.10 journals. I would call guys like Kuntz, Craft, and MME and see what kind of price they can get you on a kit they assemble. It might cost a bit more, but the parts would be better than buying a generic kit from someplace that doesn't actually build motors.
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prostreeter
Gearhead Posts: 437
From: littleton,co
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 10-28-2005 09:03 AM
Here's another combo you may be interested in which i'm running and it's a very reliable motor.Cleveland block bored .030 and stroked to a 383.Scat steel crank,3.75 stroke, ross domned pistions,comp ratio is 13.93,sb chevy rods,rod size is 2.0995,crane flat tappet cam.256/266 at .050,629/610 lift,(should run a little more cam).I spin this motor to 7500 constantly with no problems.Strip domy,holley 1000cfm carb,4v closed chamber heads ported @ polished with aluminum exhaust plates,intake flows 335 at .600 and exhaust is 285 at .600.
Large tube headers with 4" pipes (sounds awesome).Chassis dynod at 565hp.When I was building this motor I wasnt aware of this forum.I have learned a great deal and if i were to do it again I would do a few things differently.The first thing would be to listen to KV'S advise as he's been there,built it and raced it.Hope this little chime in helps.Good luck.
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bbjay351
Gearhead Posts: 308
From: Festus, Mo Us
Registered: May 2004
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posted 10-28-2005 11:52 AM
Nice numbers prostreeter. I'll do the homework on the other kits you mentioned kid. I'm starting to wonder why I'm not running any kind of descent numbers with the setup I have now. But that's old news now. Guys the info you have given me is outstanding. Kid I have your car on my background as a reminder of what my car can do with some more work. It will take me a bit but I'll get everything together before I start spending the money. I sent mme an email and tried to look into kuntz but probably just need to call them. I'll keep you all posted on what I do with this thing. ------------------
1969 Fastback 9" rear 4:56 spool. 351C for now until stroker is built. [This message has been edited by bbjay351 (edited 10-28-2005).]
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Dad Vishus
Gearhead Posts: 1153
From: Moscow, Iowa, USA
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 10-28-2005 10:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by prostreeter:
4v closed chamber heads ported @ polished with aluminum exhaust plates
I've got a set of 3/4 finished heads like that. They came with the car as well as a bone stock set of 4V CC heads and another ported CC set that has new valves. Those exhaust plates move the ports alot. Headers might be an issue, but I know they will make a ton of power. I saw an old prostock Zepher run once with a Cleveland that had those style heads. I couldn't believe how quick that motor wound up. I suspect they were twisting that thing 9 grand. ------------------
63 Falcon 377 Cleveland stroker Flying Toilet alchohol injection. 6.19 @ 110 MPH 1/8 mile
2002 Ranger FX4 daily driver
2000 F350 PSD Crew cab dually - Like commuting in a B52!!
98 US Cargo Phantom II 28'
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prostreeter
Gearhead Posts: 437
From: littleton,co
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 10-30-2005 08:34 AM
DV....your right.these heads make great power.This motor winds up so darn fast I cant shift it fast enough.Maybe an air shifter is in the future.The shock towers have been removed from this mustang so header clearance is not an issue.Correct me if I'm wrong but I think ol Bob Glidden came up with this head design.BTW....are you interested in selling those heads?
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Dad Vishus
Gearhead Posts: 1153
From: Moscow, Iowa, USA
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 10-30-2005 10:46 AM
I'm not sure exactly who might have modified them like that first, but I heard once that Don Nicholson claimed he could get better flow with stock Cleveland castings than any of the newer race heads like the Yates or C302s. That would require relocating the exhaust ports first I'm sure.Animal Jim used Clevelands for quite a while. KV corresponds with him and he has tried about everything possible from the sound of it. Like a destroked motor that routinely twisted over 10K! I've also spent some time talking to Doug Mills about Clevelands. He may be better known as Boss Man. He ran Pro Stock many years ago and was an early pioneer in Pro Mod as was Animal. He runs mainly Top Sportsman now with shotgun big blocks. Last year he told me he was putting together an 800 incher. His little motor is a 700. Fascinating stuff! I probably should get those heads to someone that will use them. I doubt if I ever will. They have also had the intake ports massaged with epoxy in the roof where it was raised and holes in the floors to anchor epoxy. Like I mentioned, they are in need of some work to be usable. ------------------
63 Falcon 377 Cleveland stroker Flying Toilet alchohol injection. 6.19 @ 110 MPH 1/8 mile
2002 Ranger FX4 daily driver
2000 F350 PSD Crew cab dually - Like commuting in a B52!!
98 US Cargo Phantom II 28'
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prostreeter
Gearhead Posts: 437
From: littleton,co
Registered: Mar 2005
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posted 10-30-2005 01:22 PM
DV...
Do you mind shooting me an email of the heads w/pics if possible?
I dont mind putting some money into these heads as long as they are a good canidate for building.I'm planning on building a real nasty cleveland this winter,even more ridiculous than the one I have.Thanks!!
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bbjay351
Gearhead Posts: 308
From: Festus, Mo Us
Registered: May 2004
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posted 10-31-2005 01:38 PM
One more question, and it's probably a dumb one, but here it goes. Which piston do you use with that combo? Is it a chevy .030 or a 351C .030?
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Dad Vishus
Gearhead Posts: 1153
From: Moscow, Iowa, USA
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 10-31-2005 08:11 PM
quote:
Originally posted by bbjay351:
One more question, and it's probably a dumb one, but here it goes. Which piston do you use with that combo? Is it a chevy .030 or a 351C .030?
Depending on the rod length and stroke, you'll need a custom Cleveland piston.The top of the piston, whether flat or domed, will need valve reliefs for the canted valves on the Cleveland head. Chevy pistons will NOT work. The custom part comes from the compression height. ------------------
63 Falcon 377 Cleveland stroker Flying Toilet alchohol injection. 6.19 @ 110 MPH 1/8 mile
2002 Ranger FX4 daily driver
2000 F350 PSD Crew cab dually - Like commuting in a B52!!
98 US Cargo Phantom II 28'
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bbjay351
Gearhead Posts: 308
From: Festus, Mo Us
Registered: May 2004
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posted 10-31-2005 10:45 PM
Well the combo so far that I'm going with is the 351C crank ground to 3.75" stroke. A chevy 6.125" rod, and a custom cleveland piston. Well, time to ask the soon to be wife if I can go play in the garage again...
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jim1320
Gearhead Posts: 283
From: white plains, maryland, usa
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted 11-01-2005 06:23 PM
actory 72 4 bolt block fill to the freeze plugs,main support ,windage tray from ford perforance solutions 4.030" bore
pistons srp 206069, rods 6 inch H beam eagle, crankshaft is 3.87 steel crank,all balance by crankshaft specialist
heads stock ford 4v heads cleans up with stainless valves
competition cams pro magnum rocker,stud girdle moroso,
camshaft lunati part #51112lun 252 260 at 50 650 lift,center line 104* cloyes true roller timing chain
holley intake stip dominator ,sfi rated balancer, high volume melling oil pump, svo oil pump shaft, moroso deep pan 8 quarts jack roush oil kit, 750 hp holly carb. about 12 to 1 comperssion with flat top pistons 0 deck block msd distributor 6 al box and coil, trans. c-4 with ati 4700 stall converter 4.56 gears with 28x10.50 slicks,only have about 10 passes on motor beat to date 10.88 123.48 mph 1.52 60 foot we think the car should run 10.70s in good weather [email protected]
i would love have new dart block? and svo heads BUT they are not giving them away see at the track
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bbjay351
Gearhead Posts: 308
From: Festus, Mo Us
Registered: May 2004
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posted 11-01-2005 10:51 PM
You know, I've been thinking about the whole stock rod cleveland that kid was talking about. I wonder if I could just use my motor and swap my 2V for the 4V. Then also swap the intake for a strip dom and a roller cam. Still would fill the block since it is .040 over. Do you think I could run at least tens with this combo. And also get a looser converter. Just a thought, save some money.
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 7251
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 11-02-2005 08:01 PM
Are your current pistons flat tops or domed? It will take some decent compression to get your car in the 10's. I would guess it will take at least 12-1. When I was running my granada, it used a 12-1 4v headed stock rod motor, and it ran consistantly around 11 flat. That car weighed 3500 lbs with driver, and ran a best of 10.82 on gas.
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bbjay351
Gearhead Posts: 308
From: Festus, Mo Us
Registered: May 2004
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posted 11-02-2005 08:42 PM
It is a flat top piston now. So basically, I'm still looking at buying new pistons...
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Dad Vishus
Gearhead Posts: 1153
From: Moscow, Iowa, USA
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 11-02-2005 09:34 PM
Hey Jim1320,You don't say what your car weighs, but heres a thought anyway. That motor combo makes a 393, right? I'd think that setup would be like a typical Cleveland and want more stall. My 377 goes to 6,000 in a 2800 pound car and goes low 1.40s 60 foot. Thats on a transbrake with a Glide. (1.76 first gear) Also, I would think a bigger carb would be something to think about. 750 CFM on a 393 is a little smallish perhaps. KVs 358s liked a 950 HP Holley real well on gas. When we made the switch from a 750 annular discharge it picked up a couple tenths in the eighth mile. JMHO ------------------
63 Falcon 377 Cleveland stroker Flying Toilet alchohol injection. 6.19 @ 110 MPH 1/8 mile
2002 Ranger FX4 daily driver
2000 F350 PSD Crew cab dually - Like commuting in a B52!!
98 US Cargo Phantom II 28'
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anglia
Journeyman Posts: 50
From: wauseon,ohio USA
Registered: Mar 2003
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posted 11-03-2005 07:17 PM
I have 2 sets of cleveland piston with a 1.43 c/h If I use a 3.85 crank an a 5.850 rod that will give me a 393" Cleveland What your thoughts on that.
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Dad Vishus
Gearhead Posts: 1153
From: Moscow, Iowa, USA
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 11-03-2005 09:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by anglia:
I have 2 sets of cleveland piston with a 1.43 c/h If I use a 3.85 crank an a 5.850 rod that will give me a 393" Cleveland What your thoughts on that.
Rod might be a bit short. As KV said, short rods put more stress on the thrust side of the cylinder wall.It might be OK with light enough rods and pistons.
------------------
63 Falcon 377 Cleveland stroker Flying Toilet alchohol injection. 6.19 @ 110 MPH 1/8 mile
2002 Ranger FX4 daily driver
2000 F350 PSD Crew cab dually - Like commuting in a B52!!
98 US Cargo Phantom II 28'
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jim1320
Gearhead Posts: 283
From: white plains, maryland, usa
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted 11-03-2005 09:21 PM
Dad Vishus My car weight 3550 with me in it. I going try a 950 next week end if the weather is good . And may be 1050 domintor . You are right a little more stall would help thank you for writng. best time this year was 10.69 et at 124 mph. jim1320 Hoping to get my a3 heads over winter. but need a little extra cash
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Dusty Kiser
Gearhead Posts: 191
From: Bethel,Oh USA
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 02-11-2006 10:58 AM
Hi guys. I've followed this thread with interest because I love clevelands and because I'm assembling a stroker for a customer and it's interesting to read user comments. We know ClevelandStyle and know him to be a working man who doesn't spend money foolishly and makes his stuff work quite well. He works hard and plays hard and gets results! You can bank on his advice.
The thing about these engines we're talking about is they're old. Almost as old as me! The cleveland was designed in the mid sixties and built late 60's/early 70's. This stuff has been flogged by knotheads like me for many years before you got it! So, if you're going to beat on it some more and want to keep it together for awhile, conservative is the key word. These heads will support 10,00 rpm but you'd better put a blanket under it to catch the parts that will eventually fall out! But isn't it neat to open a can of whoop ass on those bow ties with a factory piece that came out of the foundry in 1970?
I was fortunate enough to meet Dyno Don in 1972 and he was the nicest touring pro racer I ever met. He loved the clevelands and tried so many combinations it was mind boggling. He was assembling Boss 302 based engines at one point that displaced 390 cu.in.! He bored the cylinder walls completely out and inserted siamesed sleeves because he and all the Ford racers found out early in developement that those big valves wanted a big bore to unshroud them! The sleeves were copper plated and to the deck he would add a copper plated one inch thick deck plate. The whole thing got furnase brazed together to make a 9.2 deck big bore block with a small journal crank! I believe C.J. Batten cyl heads was instrumental in developing the high port exhaust for the Dyno Dons and Bob G's and Jack Roushes. Batten was at the top of their game then and were welding up and porting the best bow tie heads on the planet back then, besides all the othher stuff. Does anyone remember the six cylinder heads they made for Bruce Sizemore. They cut the center two chambers from three Boss 302 heads then welded them together to form an inline six head that bolted on a 300 block! Sizemore, formerly of Preperation H fame, did considerable valvetrain developement and terrorized the former checvvy stronghold of I and J/Gas. He bombed the record by more than one and one quarter seconds. But, I'm wandering here. I would just like to point out, that if cylinder walls are an issue, and we know they are, why not take out a little insurance and put a good sleeve in the block to start with? It has to be cheaper than lunching a good motor. Roush, Holman Moody and others used to "post" the cylinder heads. They said when you got the clevelands hitting a hard lick, you ran the risk of cracking the head in the area of the exhaust valve seat. They would drill and tap holes in the head at about a 45 degree angle to the deck and run a long bolt into the head to butt up to the back side of the chamber in the water jacket. This gave needed support to the area and may have helped cooling a little. I would advise any youngster who wants to build a "serious" cleveland to find an oldtimer who built and raced them. It could save you a lot of headaches in the long run!
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