With the little bit of research I've done though, it looks expensive. Anyone tried it, or know someone who has?

Seems I would need Cleve pistons to get the compression up and a Cleve intake to feed it. Then would I need spacers or not. I'm kind of confused on that part.

The goal for the engine is to put in a truck for parts hauling and light towing. Am I heading in the wrong direction?

quote:

---

Originally posted by 68F100:
OK, now are you saying the 400 heads are pretty much the same as Cleve 2v's?

If so, what to do about an intake?

---

Yes they are. The main difference is a slightly worse exhuast port. But with a little grinding they can be made decent.

So I assume that if I continue with this whacky scheme, I would want to stick to 2v heads for my intended purpose.

But I'm still a little lost as to intakes. I think that if I'm going to stick with the stock 400M heads, then I won't want to mess with a Cleve intake and spacers. On the other hand though, how big of a bottleneck is the stock 2v 400 intake going to be? Keep in mind that this motor won't get headers (not in the budget until 2 other projects are done).

My brother in law built a 400 in a 79 F250 several years ago to tow a camper with.

Basically, he put an aluminum 4 barrel intake on it with a Holley 600, I believe, an RV grind cam and that was about it. The truck had a granny 4 speed and 4.10 gears. It was stump pulling brute. Towed a 32 foot tag camper with ease.

One thing it wouldn't pass was a gas station!

How about compression? It's pretty low compression stock.

As mentioned, slap a Performer and 4V carb of choice, and you have a winner! I saw a website where a guy took his original cast iron 2V intake, and hogged it out on a Bridgeport, turning it into a 4V intake. Apparently the factory must've intended to make a 4V intake for them, since the meat was already there. Unfortunately, Ford never followed through with that plan. Milling one out would be a lot of work, but the price is right if you have the time and equipment!

quote:

---

Originally posted by mtkawboy:
Ford offered the 400 4 barrel as an option when I ordered my 77 F250 4X4 but it came in as a 351 2 barrel after they cancelled it.

---

There were no 400 4 barrel engines sold by Ford. They ALL came as 2bbls.

However, in this engine's first year of production, it came with flattop pistons and a decent compression ratio... so those engines ran pretty good. I believe it was 1972, and they only came in cars.

They may have also come with the 351C 2bbl heads instead of the inferior 351M400 units with their choked off exhaust ports. (2bbl heads swap right on to a 400)

------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220

Ford beat you to it. The 351M/400 is a tall deck Cleveland design.
Heads are similar to 2V but have a bad exhaust port.

> With the little bit of research I've done though, it looks expensive. Anyone
> tried it, or know someone who has?

Not really expensive at all. It's just a rebuild. Getting the compression
up a bit may take some thought. I thought I had heard there is an
off-the-shelf 400 piston available now (Ohio or Badger, maybe?) but it
wasn't available when I was looking into this. You can use 351C pistons
which have the same pin height but different diameters (0.9752" versus
0.9122") so you have to bush the 400 rods. Keith Black KB148 has a 1.670"
compression height with a 13cc dish, for instance. The compression height
of a 351C piston is near that of a 400. Stock compression heights of the
various 351C pistons range from 1.631" to 1.657". The compression height
of the stock 400 piston is 1.650". You can always mill the 2V open chamber
heads or use 2V Aussie quench heads to get the compression up too.

> Seems I would need Cleve pistons to get the compression up and a Cleve
> intake to feed it. Then would I need spacers or not. I'm kind of confused
> on that part.

Spacers are only required if you use 4V heads or want to use a 351C-2V
intake instead of a 351M/400 intake. For a working truck with 2V heads,
one of the 351M/400 aftermarket intakes will work.

> The goal for the engine is to put in a truck for parts hauling and light
> towing. Am I heading in the wrong direction?

Stick with a 351M/400 4 barrel intake and 351C-2V heads.

> Yes they are. The main difference is a slightly worse exhuast port. But with
> a little grinding they can be made decent.

Beware not all 351M/400 heads can be ground out. A friend went through this
building a 434 cube (offest ground 400 crank and Ford 240 six cylinder rods,
modified Chevy pistons) 400 stroker. He detailed the engine build up at:

http://www.bacomatic.org/~dw/km434/km434.htm

From the text at that site:

"These are real, early-type 351C-2V heads. I didn't think to take any pictures
of the differences, but though it's widely claimed (even by Ford!) that the
351M and 400 use 2V Cleveland heads, it's not true. The 2V head has a nice
smooth exhaust port. The M head has a "potbelly" port you can barely get your
finger through, with the water jacket drooped down around the valve guide. You
can't grind the potbelly out because there's water inside it. I went through
what I thought was a stash of 2V heads and *all* of them were M heads. I wound
up giving all nine of them away. Kenney scrounged up two 2V heads from two
different core engines. They needed a lot of TLC after laying out in the rain
for several years, but they're a much better head than the M heads."

If you can find real 351C-2V heads, they are a better starting point and
aren't expensive. You could even use a set of Australian 2V closed chamber
heads which have the good exhaust port and the smaller chambers will boost
the compression ratio with the usual 400 rebuilder pistons.

> Your only '400' choice is an Edlebrock performer.

There are a variety of aluminum 4 barrel intake manifolds made for the
351M/400:

351M/400 Aftermarket 4 Barrel Aluminum Intake Manifold List
-----------------------------------------------------------

Edelbrock S.P.2.P. 400 (P/N 3370)
- low rise (A=3.5", B=4.9") dual plane with Holley carb bolt pattern
- CARB emissions approved
- advertised RPM range: idle-4000 rpm
- no longer in production
- low rpm type economy manifold with smaller than stock runners

Edelbrock S.P.2.P. 400-2V (P/N 5171)
- low rise (A=3.7", B=4.95") dual plane with Holley 2BBL carb bolt pattern
- CARB emissions approved
- advertised RPM range: idle-4000 rpm
- low rpm type economy manifold with smaller than stock runners

Edelbrock Streetmaster (P/N 3190)
- low rise single plane with Holley carb bolt pattern
- no longer in production
- small port, small plenum, economy type intake

Edelbrock Performer 400 Non-EGR (P/N 2171)
- low rise (A=3.6", B=4.75") dual plane with Holley carb bolt pattern
- not CARB emissions approved
- advertised RPM range: idle-5500
- installation notes from Edelbrock catalog : choke block-off plate #8971
incl. recommended intake gasket: Fel-Pro #MS96020.

Edelbrock Performer 400 EGR (P/N 3771)
- low rise (A=3.6", B=4.75") dual plane with Holley carb bolt pattern
- CARB emissions approved
- advertised RPM range: idle-5500
- completely different casting from 400 non-EGR
- can be used in three configurations:
1. OEM 2V carb and EGR system with supplied 2V EGR spacer
2. 4V EGR system with either an Edelbrock #8053 4V EGR spacer,
or an Edelbrock #8017 and Ford #E4ZZ9A-589E 4V EGR spacer
3. Non-EGR 4V system with an Edelbrock #8714 adapter.
- installation notes from Edelbrock catalog: recommended intake gasket:
Fel-Pro #MS96020.

Holley Street Dominator 351M-400 (P/N 300-20 or is it 301-14?)
- low rise, open plenum, single plane
- Holley/Carter standard 4 BBL and *Motorcraft* spreadbore carb bolt pattern
- advertised rpm range: idle-5500
- CARB emissions approved

Offenhauser Dual Port 400 (P/N 6033-DP)
- low rise dual port with Holley carb bolt pattern
- not CARB emissions approved
- advertised RPM range: idle-???
- '71 later 400

Offenhauser Dual Port 400 (6034-DP)
- low rise dual port with spread bore carb bolt pattern
- not CARB emissions approved
- advertised RPM range: idle-???

Offenhauser Dual Port 351M (P/N 6141-DP)
- low rise dual port with Holley carb bolt pattern
- not CARB emissions approved
- advertised RPM range: idle-???
- '75 and later 351M

Weiand Action Plus 351M/400 Series (P/N 8010)
- low rise (A=3.75", B=4.75") dual plane with Holley carb bolt pattern
- not CARB emissions approved
- advertised RPM range: idle-6000
- looks to be the highest performing performing of the bunch?
- might be the one with enough area to match 4V ports?

Notes:

1. The above intakes are for 2V style heads (U.S. and Aussie).

2. For 4V (or 2V) heads you can use spacers and 351C intakes. Weiand makes
spacers (P/N 8205) that mate 351C-2V intake manifolds to 351M/400 blocks.
PME makes spacers for 351C-4V heads on 351M/400 heads.

3. After Holley bought Weiand, they advertised the Weiand Action Plus
351M/400 Series (P/N 8010) as a Stealth series dual plane high rise but
it's really not. It's a low rise dual plane.

> On the other hand though, how big of a bottleneck is the stock 2v 400 intake
> going to be?

The carb is the bottle neck. The ports of the intake are okay. If you
go to the Dave Williams link above you'll see how he machined a 400 cast
iron 2V intake to take a 4 barrel carb. It's an option if you have time
and machine tools. For most of us, a used 4 barrel intake would be
cheaper and easier.

> If so, what to do about an intake?

I'd look at the Weiand or Edelbrock dual plane or the Holley single plane.
Usually, I don't like the Holley Streetmaster series of intakes but, in the
400's case, the Holley Streetmaster looks just like a Weiand Xcelerator 2V
single plane that works so well on the 351C-2V. The Holley will directly
mount a Motorcraft 4300D spreadbore (the OEM carb for '72-up 351C-4V's),
if you are so inclined. A Thermoquad or a Qjet on an Offy Dual Port spread
bore intake would be interesting (for maximum throttle response and MPG) for
a truck but I doubt you'll ever find such a beast. Stay away from the
Edelbrock Streetmaster or SP2P intakes. The Holley Street Dominator looks
to my eye to be the intake that would offer the highest performance but for
a working truck a Weiand or Edelbrock dual plane might give a bit more low
end grunt. The Weiand 8010 dual plane looks a bit nicer than either of the
Edelbrock dual planes but I don't know anyone who has tested them.

> Keep in mind that this motor won't get headers (not in the budget until
> 2 other projects are done).

351M/400 headers aren't that expensive and will provide a meaningful torque
and HP increase. I'd try to find some place else to save the budget.

> This motor was tired when I bought the truck it's in so I don't really know
> what it's SUPPOSED to run like.

They were tired from the factory. They had very low compression, a wimpy
cam, 2 barrel carb, single exhaust and were total dogs in stock early
emissions-era form but there's no reason they have to stay that way.
Do a rebuild, bump up the compression a bit, a 4 barrel intake and carb,
headers and it'll run just fine.

When I got interested in the 400, I scammed the net looking for info on the
351M/400. The guys who did the cam/compression/intake/headers deal were
all quite pleased with the results. I also came up with a copy of the Sept
1998 issue of Hot Rod magazine article on building a high torque, low budget,
400 for a Ranchero. They claim 375 ft-lbs near 2000 rpm, and peaks of 468
ft-lbs at 4400 rpm and 382 hp (no rpm given). As near as I can tell, that
was with a 550 CFM Holley 2 barrel carb (on an aftermarket intake), home
ported cast iron manifolds, with emissions gear intact, at the rear wheels.
It's a magazine article so you really can't trust the numbers but it's
worth a read anyway. Details of the build:

Holley 550 CFM 2 barrel carb
aftermarket intake manifold (undisclosed brand)
stock 2V heads milled 0.025", home port and polish job
Comp Cams Xtreme Energy grind FC 5433-5216 H110
224/230 degrees duration @0.050", 0.524"/0.529", 110 LSA
ported cast iron manifolds, dual catalytic converters,
2-into-1 Y-pipe, 3" diameter exhaust sytem
MSD-6Al ignition and Super Blaster coil
0.030" overbore, Silvolite cast pistons
9.45:1 compression

I may have a scanned version of the article on my hard drive somewhere.

That's plenty of exhaust flow for what he's doing. I try to talk people out
of 4V valves in 2V castings but they never listen. An intermediate size
intake valve helps but there's no reason to go larger on the exhaust.
My C302 heads flowed 242 CFM on the exhaust side without a pipe with a
1.65" diameter valve (same as a 2V).

Do a rebuild, get a bit more compression and add a 4 barrel intake and a decent "grunt" cam and you'll be pleased. A set of headers and dual exhaust will help also.

I rode in that 79 of my brother in laws pulling that camper on a couple of 400 mile trips and I can tell you no hills slowed it down. It was really torquey.

The info I read on it said that it was for the first year 400m(1972 I think). Anyway, it's the one that had the higher compression.

If any of you know of another piston that could be easily used, throw me some numbers.

I'm shooting for right around 9:1 compression.