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Author
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Topic: How well mated would the springs be?
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1888
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 02-13-2005 01:29 AM
   
Deciding if it would be best to buy a set of bare heads and get a comp K kit, of if a complete set and just a cam and lifter set would work best. As in how well matched the components would be.My head options in my price range are Edelbrock performer rpm, and world's roush 200, and windsor jr. I've yet to decide which i really want in my climate, as Alex warned me i might not be happy with aluminums. The cam profile will be a 270H but with the 1.7:1 rocker ratio giving a max lift of .531" which may be too much for the springs that come in the comp kit. The edelbrock site says .575" for max lift, and the world catalogue says the jr. .560", and the 200's are the same. I can't find listings as to spring pressures or anything for the heads, so your guess is as good as mine. In my poor opinion, the jr's look good, they have the smallest combustion chambers, 180cc intake ports, which is bigger than the edelbrocks and smaller than the huge 200cc's. The edelbrocks look nice because they will lighten up the front a peice, and in my car that is muchly needed. now a few questions, which comes with the best valvetrain parts, which would be better matched to my cam choice, which would i be most happy with in my climate, and would i be able to run the roush or rpm with the 2.02 without changing or modifying my pistons? And which would be best, a complete head or buying parts to match the cam? Thanks for reading, and putting up with my stupid posts. ------------------
1974 Gran Torino(351W/c6)
My Page
Well it has primer on it now [This message has been edited by Dubz (edited 02-13-2005).]
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 26811
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 02-13-2005 10:55 AM
Valve train parts are adequate on both heads for your cam and rocker choice.
No piston to valve issues.
Always buy heads complete when possible for best deal.------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,'04 &'05
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1888
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 02-13-2005 02:45 PM
Thanks Alex. If you were building a motor for yourself for a street car which would you pick?
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Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 20638
From: Reno Nv USA M&M#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 02-13-2005 03:01 PM
Dubz hand down I'd go with the RPM heads. The machine shop I used said these wasn't any question there. 
I know I'm not Alex, and far from a builder. ------------------
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe 351w C4 Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1888
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 02-14-2005 03:07 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Fastymz:
Dubz hand down I'd go with the RPM heads. The machine shop I used said these wasn't any question there.
I know I'm not Alex, and far from a builder.
but as you mentioned in the aluminum heads and cold temps thread, what happens below freezing? We have alot of cold (freezing) weather here before we get snow, and it would be a shame to have to park the car a month early just because it's too cold. 
[This message has been edited by Dubz (edited 02-14-2005).]
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Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 20638
From: Reno Nv USA M&M#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 02-14-2005 03:16 PM
I don't drive my car if it's below 40-50 outside anyways. Or if there is a chance of snow or rain. Thats about 3-4 mo's out of the year. So I went for the RPM heads they flow great and save a little weight too.  ------------------
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe 351w C4 Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics [This message has been edited by Fastymz (edited 02-14-2005).]
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1888
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 02-14-2005 03:23 PM
As much as i would like to move further south so i could drive my car longer, i don't think that i could explain that to well to the fiance. And if i drove it till before we got snow it would be in the teens to twenties probably which it was for about a month before we got snow this and last year, which would meen 4 to 5 months of driving. [This message has been edited by Dubz (edited 02-14-2005).]
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Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 20638
From: Reno Nv USA M&M#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 02-14-2005 03:29 PM
I'm so impatient that if I lived in an area where it was warm enough to drive my car every day, I would.
I'd never have any time for projects on the car or around the house. Winter gives me the time and reason, to get to all the projects I put off during the summer done. ------------------
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe 351w C4 Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 26811
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 02-15-2005 01:12 AM
FOr 99% street use, I would be choosing one of the iron heads.------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,'04 &'05
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1888
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 02-16-2005 01:55 AM
so then for 98% street use you'd choose aluminums??if that's the case, i think i've made up my mind. [This message has been edited by Dubz (edited 02-16-2005).]
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1888
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 02-18-2005 12:38 AM
Darn it, read my new Car Craft and saw that the Dard Pro 1's as cast are supposed to be selling on summit for under $1000 complete. According to the dart site they flow better than the edelbrocks, and come in 170cc intake or 195cc intake.
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Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 20638
From: Reno Nv USA M&M#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 02-18-2005 01:07 AM
Dubz, I got my RPM heads complete for $1179.------------------
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe 351w C4 Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1888
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 02-18-2005 02:28 PM
such decisions 
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Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 20638
From: Reno Nv USA M&M#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 02-18-2005 02:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Dubz:
such decisions
I understand I was just there this time last year. I asked a ton of questions about my motor build. And I still wish I would have done a few things different.
It's never enough 
I will tell you the day SteveW and I started my motor for the first time. I couldn't have been more happy. Steve was lucky I didn't hug him. 
Every time I drive my car now. It makes all the time, questions and money worth it. And I'm sure the same will happen for you. Go with what you want, and what will work best for you.
------------------
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe 351w C4 Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1888
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 02-18-2005 03:34 PM
in your questioning, did you by chance find out if there is such a thing as too much flow?I know i want to keep the intake port on the smaller side to keep velocity up, but when looking for heads of equal volumes, can you have too much flow for an engine? or just would the flow go un-used, being that after you reach a certain flow #, any more won't help with the rest of components staying equal. And i know flow isn't the only thing important in a head, but it seems to be all that people compare, or is the only thing measureable about them to compare, what about things like swirl, and combustion chamber shape and stuff?
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Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 20638
From: Reno Nv USA M&M#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 02-18-2005 06:37 PM
Dubz, I think thats why so many people told me the RPM heads were the best for the money. There might be a better head out there but it'll coast more. As for flow rate I never worried to much about that. I liked the idea of a less weight and a good smooth flowing head. The machine shop did do some port matching and alittle bowl work on the heads. He kinda just gave me that as a bonus. I do think that the large valve RPM heads I have can flow a lot more, then my mild 351w can right now. But if I ever get more cam, convertor, gears etc. I wanted a head and motor that was durable. And one I could add more power too along the way.------------------
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe 351w C4 Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1888
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 02-18-2005 08:23 PM
Well i know you've had good luck with the edelbrocks, but the dart aluminum pro 1's sell for $912 complete per pair from summit according to car craft. And according to the Stan Weiss site, they outflow lots of comparable heads, so wondering what the dealio is.This is why i was asking about flow, cause i don't know enough to make an educated decision about which heads to choose from these #'s. And if i'm gonna drop $900 on heads, $1200 isn't that different if there is a difference in quality, or will better match my planned setup. looking at flow numbers at .400" Int/Exh Dart 195 Alum - 246/172
Dart 170 Alum - 240/171
AFR 185 - 234/178
World Roush 200 - 232/145
Edelbrock - 219/163 and then at .500"
Dart 195 Alum - 272/180
AFR 185 - 267/185
World Roush 200 - 257/140
Dart 170 - 251/173
Edelbrock - 229/172
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Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 20638
From: Reno Nv USA M&M#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 02-18-2005 08:43 PM
Dubz those magazines never seen to get the price right.DRT-13071123 $1,237.95
Estimated Ship Date: Monday
OverviewBrand: Dart
Product Line: Dart Pro 1 Aluminum Cylinder Heads
Cylinder Head Style: Assembled
Cylinder Head Material: Aluminum
Cylinder Head Finish: Natural
Combustion Chamber Volume (cc): 62
CNC Machined Combustion Chamber: Yes
Intake Runner Volume (cc): 210
Exhaust Runner Volume (cc): 76
CNC Machined Intake Runner: Yes
CNC Machined Exhaust Runner: Yes
Combustion Chamber Style: Heart
Intake Port Location: Standard
Exhaust Port Shape: Square
Exhaust Port Location: Standard
Intake Valves Included: Yes
Intake Valve Diameter (in): 2.050
Exhaust Valves Included: Yes
Exhaust Valve Diameter (in): 1.600
Valve Springs Included: Yes
Outside Diameter of Outer Spring (in): 1.550
Damper Spring Included: Yes
Number of Springs Per Valve: Dual
Retainers Included: Yes
Retainer Material: Steel
Locks Included: Yes
Lock Style: 10 degree
Valve Stem Seals Included: Yes
Valve Stem Seal Style: PC seal
Rocker Arm Studs Included: Yes
Rocker Arm Nut Thread Size: 7/16-20 in.
Rocker Arms Included: No
Rocker Arm Nuts Included: No
Guideplates Included: Yes
Guideplate Pushrod Size: 5/16 in.
Valve Cover Mounting Style: Perimeter bolt
Accessory Bolt Holes Drilled: Yes
Valve Guides Included: Yes
Valve Guide Material: Manganese bronze
Valve Seats Machined: Yes
Valve Seat Machine Style: 4-angle intake/2-angle exhaust
Valve Seat Material: Ductile iron
Steam Holes Drilled: No
Oiling Style: Through pushrod
Machined for O-Ring: No
Heat Crossover: No
Quantity: Sold individually. Performance heads at an affordable price. Cylinder Head, Aluminum, Natural, 62cc, Ford, Small Block, Windsor, Each Race-proven features and affordable pricing make these Dart Pro 1 355-T6 aluminum cylinder heads one of the biggest values in racing. Available as bare castings or fully assembled, the fully assembled heads include stainless steel valves, valve springs, retainers, locks, seals, studs, and guideplates. They come with your choice of angled or straight plug locations, and accept all early and late model accessory brackets. ------------------
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe 351w C4 Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics
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Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 20638
From: Reno Nv USA M&M#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 02-18-2005 08:49 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Dubz:
This is why i was asking about flow, cause i don't know enough to make an educated decision about which heads to choose from these #'s.
Same reason I went with the RPM heads. Plenty of people have used and liked them. Not saying they are the best head out there, or will out flow all otheres. But not having the experience myself. I looked at what others have run and what kinda of power and feed back they had on the heads.
I'm not trying to sway your choice just trying to help.
------------------
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe 351w C4 Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1888
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 02-18-2005 08:56 PM
those ones you listed are the cnc'd ones, the ones i was listing are as-cast with smaller intake ports. Those were 210 and the ones i was talking about are 170 and 195part numbers DRT-13100080, and DRT-13200010 listed at $455.69 each, comes in at 911.38 for the pair complete And thanks for the help Ron, i've heard lots positive about the edelbrocks, havn't heard anything bad, just i havn't heard much at all of the darts till i was flipping though a mag in car craft, and i'm not one to take a magazine's advice on a product. The worlds are out, who needs extra weight, huge ports which will have lower velocites, and not that good of flow #'s. [This message has been edited by Dubz (edited 02-18-2005).]
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Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 20638
From: Reno Nv USA M&M#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 02-18-2005 09:14 PM
Ok that price $455.69 is for bare heads, the complete heads are $571.39 EA part number DRT-13100081 single spring or $617.99 ea for dual springs, Still a great prices if they are better heads. ------------------
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe 351w C4 Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics [This message has been edited by Fastymz (edited 02-18-2005).]
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1888
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 02-18-2005 09:37 PM
ahh, i see, so the mag did screw up with thier pricing and/or part #'s as they list the DRT-13100080 and DRT-13200010 as complete. Where did you find the other part #'s and prices, i looked that # up and got nothin.edit: found the dart catalogue and it lists those as bare as well, and the 13111181 as the 170 single spring, and 13211111 as 195 single spring complete [This message has been edited by Dubz (edited 02-18-2005).]
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1888
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 02-19-2005 02:39 PM
Well now that i know the Dart's are about the same price as the edelbrocks. Will someone Please help me pick which would be better with the other parts i picked. Both will be a huge step in the right direction.
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1888
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 02-20-2005 11:41 PM
anyone?
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1888
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 03-03-2005 01:23 AM
please, someone help, i'm so incredibly lost
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