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Author
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Topic: Long talk with my machine shop guy today
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fxcomet
Gearhead Posts: 123
From: Lexington, KY
Registered: Dec 2004
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posted 12-28-2004 04:11 PM
   
Had a long talk with my machine shop guy today after wiping out two cams and one shortblock in my 'Liner. (no, NOT at the same time...)in the past month. Anyway, my desire to go solid roller to avoid the cam munching may be a little premature. I'd heard rumblings about this before, but he gave me the whole scoop. Due to a request from the big 3 auto manufacturers to eliminate zinc from motor oil, flat tappet cams have been wiping out at an alarming rate at EVERY machine shop across the country. He told me he'd been losing 6-7 cams outta 10 on his rebuilds. Obviously, an expensive proposition not to mention what it's done to his reputation as an engine builder. He's since begun using Diesel spec oil (zinc's still in these) in his rebuilds and cam installs and hasn't lost a single one. This may be old news for some of you but thought you might wanna know.
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 26813
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 12-28-2004 04:23 PM
Synthetic cures that problem.
We swap out petroleum for RP synthetic after break in on all of high performance build up's with anything over .500 lift.
We are also very careful with our valve spring selection.------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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fxcomet
Gearhead Posts: 123
From: Lexington, KY
Registered: Dec 2004
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posted 12-28-2004 04:35 PM
Alex, do you run a set of weaker springs on break-in on big cams and then switch? I wanna gather up all the info I can before I install the third (and hopefully, last) cam...[This message has been edited by fxcomet (edited 12-28-2004).]
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 26813
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 12-28-2004 04:49 PM
NEVER!
We just make certain to pick the right springs the first time. It you don't plan on turning the motor 7k, you don't need 7k springs and pressure.
We are also very careful during assembly and initial start up.
I must spin the motor over on the stand 100 times or more checking and rechecking every thing. I always set the lash on the loose side too.
There is no such thing as too much cam lube.  The RP product is the best I have ever seen!
Another thing that we do that a lot of shops don't is use store bought oil. Not bulk.
It costs a lot more, but I just don't believe that the bulk stuff is the same.
We use Kendall or Castrol GTX racing oil for all break in.
It gets dumped before a tire is ever turned and the oil filter gets cut open for inspection.
I have not had a cam go flat in over 20 years.(I have spoken with many of my peer shop owners and this does seem to be a very controvertial issue nationwide, although I have not been experiancing it. Other shops are having problems with larger juice cams also.) ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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fxcomet
Gearhead Posts: 123
From: Lexington, KY
Registered: Dec 2004
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posted 12-28-2004 04:59 PM
Good info.  I don't wanna over cam this thing as I don't plan on spinning it over 6K anyway. It's a cruiser, not a drag car. Still, I know with big cubes, what may seem like a big number lift cam really may not be. Thanks for all the info, guys!!
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 44935
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
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posted 12-28-2004 05:00 PM
I read in a recent Hot Rod {yes, I know...} that some builders believe the reason Ford engines have been breaking cam dowels and timing chains is related to people installing the cam bearings and not checking the clearances and as the temps and rpms climb the camshaft gets into a bind condition. Sounds plausable. ------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 Open
'70 Mustang Convertible 250 I6/3 speed/2.79 Open
'72 Mustang Sprint Hardtop 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Loc
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 26813
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 12-28-2004 05:26 PM
I agree Steve. I have found a lot of chewed up cam bearings lately on stuff from "rebuilder" shops that try to do race motor work.  ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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SteveLaRiviere
Administrator Posts: 44935
From: Saco, Maine
Registered: May 99
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posted 12-28-2004 06:18 PM
I bet those guys don't even know there are different sizes.------------------
'70 Mustang Mach 1 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 Open
'70 Mustang Convertible 250 I6/3 speed/2.79 Open
'72 Mustang Sprint Hardtop 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Loc
'94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
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Fordwiser
Gearhead Posts: 429
From: Metamora, Illinois
Registered: Dec 2000
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posted 12-28-2004 09:43 PM
I wouldn't doubt a problem with cam bearings, but both mishaps I've had were because of my own stupidity. The first time was with a single pin factory length bolt and a thick washer (thicker then the fuel pump eccentric it replaced) Little did I know when I tourqed the bolt to specs it bottomed out just as it began to tighten on the cam gear. The Ultradyne roller cam was not drilled and tapped as deep as stock cleveland cams. Results were bending of the pin, throwing cam timming off untill it finally let go, bending most of the valves and pushrods. Second time around I bought a already double drilled factory nylon cam gear, stock type chain and multi position crank gear to match from Animal Jim, who said he ran this setup on his race engines for years. What I didn't think about, or ask was he regularly changed chains. I ran it the whole season, I only race a couple times a month but the chain broke the last race of the season bending more valves among other things! That was a few years ago, I now have billet gears and double roller chain from Hamburger, double pinned of course. No problems since!
Roger
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TomP
Gearhead Posts: 6007
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99
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posted 12-28-2004 10:03 PM
I broke a cam dowel on my 427, same deal, the stock length bolt turned out to be just the right length to bottom in the cam as it was torquing. Oddly enough i did measure the hole, but didn't take into account the depth to the end of the threads since the drill makes a V in the end of the hole.
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ccode67
Gearhead Posts: 2895
From: douglasville,ga,usa
Registered: Mar 2001
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posted 12-29-2004 07:46 AM
Does this mean we shouldn't run dino oil in anything with a flat tappet cam???? Or is this during initial breakin only? Lots of vehicles with flat tappets still.------------------
Stuart
MCA #48902
M&M #1091
67 stang 5 speed, 351W,
Edelbrock Performer RPM package my photo page
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n2oMike
Gearhead Posts: 2694
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 12-29-2004 09:11 AM
Lack of zinc in the latest motor oils has been a concern lately. Zinc is a very good additive that guards against scuffing.The auto companys (or the EPA) have taken zinc out of the latest line of oils, as it is believed that zinc can cause problems with catalytic converters. (or some part of the emission system) Valvoline racing oil still has the zinc. I was looking at it at the local auto parts store, and it had the previous rating on the back of the bottle. It also stated that it contained extra ZDDP, which is a zinc additive. They had it in 30, 40, 50, 60, and 20/50. Just to be safe, I'd probably use either this or a top rated Diesel oil for break-in. Alex mentions proper spring selection is very important, and I agree. However, I still removed the inner springs on my heads. They will be re-installed after break-in. I'm not taking any chances on rounding off a cam lobe! Plus... I like to use a little extra spring pressure on 289/302's. Most cams are rpm rated (and springs are selected for) the garden variety 350ci engine. Our small blocks tend to rpm a little better than those do.... Royal Purple synthetic is great stuff. Alex sells it if anyone is interested. I might switch to it after the engine is good and broken in... but I've always gotten by with the $19.88 for a 5qt jug of Mobil 1 at WalMart in the past. Royal Purple is indeed top shelf stuff. The zinc issue has me worried about 'street legal' Mobil 1. Good Luck! ------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220 [This message has been edited by n2oMike (edited 12-29-2004).]
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Daniel Jones
Gearhead Posts: 873
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Aug 99
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posted 12-29-2004 10:55 AM
ZDDP was indeed removed from automobile oil by the EPA. On a higher mileage engine that burns oil, it can eventually cause the catalytic converter to stop functioning. Diesel and motorcycle oil still have the ZDDP zinc-based additive. Delvac 1 is the diesel equivalent of Mobil 1 synthetic and Rotella T is a dino oil with ZDDP. I run Delvac 1 in my flat tappet engines and Mobil 1 in my roller tappet engines. GM's engine oil supplement also has ZDDP. Dan Jones
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GregK
Gearhead Posts: 221
From: Clear Spring, Md
Registered: Mar 2004
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posted 12-29-2004 02:37 PM
When I was at the PRI Show there was a company there called Brad Penn oil( a sub company of the American Refining Group, Inc). They just purchased the old Kendal oil refinery in Bradford, Pa. They are making the Kendall style oil with all the ingredient to prevent cam wipe out. Here is a link to their web site and phone No#.
www.amref.com (814)368-1200 I hope this helps------------------
1968 coupe 351W, Bored.030,Stock Crank, Stock Rods,Decked,KB Hyper. flat top pistons. Bullet Cam 231/[email protected]/.541 lift,Stock heads,RPM Air Gap,BG 750 Speed Demon,MSD Ignition,C4 Trans.,9" rear with 4.11 posi. best time 12.323 @ 106.80 mph in the 1/4 [This message has been edited by GregK (edited 12-29-2004).]
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n2oMike
Gearhead Posts: 2694
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 12-29-2004 07:03 PM
If you really want to get in with a bunch of people who are into oil, go here. They even have forums dedicated to oil. It's pretty much all car/truck related stuff.http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/ Have Fun! ------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220
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