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Author
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Topic: 351cobra jet
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sic67coug
Gearhead Posts: 189
From: clearlake california
Registered: Dec 2002
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posted 12-15-2004 11:58 AM
   
ok whats the deal with this engine im reading that this thing isnt that great other people say it rocks and this is the only place i know that will know for sure. sorry i havent been on in a while, school is killin me. i need 3 symesters of calculus before i can transfer to a 4 year
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73torinoqcode
Gearhead Posts: 361
From: Buffalo,NY,USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted 12-15-2004 12:43 PM
A 351 CJ is a 72-73 4 barrel Cleveland engine. They came with 4 bolt mains and 4v open chambered heads. They are no stronger than a 2 bolt block. They came stock with about 250 HP and a CR of about 8.5:1 for Emissions reasons. An earlier model Cleveland 4v makes more power with a higher compression ratio and closed chambered heads. 70 and 71 I believe they were rated at 300 HP from the factory.
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Hemikiller
Gearhead Posts: 606
From: Killingworth, CT
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 12-15-2004 02:56 PM
Here's some of the the facts, Jack. 1970, 351C-4V was introduced as an M-code. 300hp, closed chamber heads, 2 bolt main caps,
cast flat top pistons for a 10.7:1 compression ratio, non adjustable hydraulic valvetrain,
Autolite 4300 square bore carb, dual exhaust. All automatics received the FMX. 1971, M-code continued unchanged, but was rated at 285 for some reason. Probably to be
second fiddle to the as-then planned 71 Mustang Boss 302 (290hp). The Boss 302 was dropped (thank god) in
favor of the 330hp Boss 351 (R-code). Automatic M-codes received the C-6 trans standard, with a poorly suited torque converter. R- code (Mustang only) Boss 351 engine was only available in the sportsroofed Boss 351 model, 4-bolt main block, specially selected
crank, D1ZX rods of 1041 steel and 180,000 psi rod bolts, closed chamber heads with fully adjustable
valvetrain with mechanical cam (290 duration, .477 lift), Boss 302 type aluminum valve covers with "Boss 351"
emblem, dual point dizzy, forged pop-up (domed) pistons, larger (2.5" IIRC) exhaust
manifold outlets, aluminum spread bore intake with an Autolite 4300D carb, baffled oil pan with a crank scraper and a re-calibrated
dipstick to show 6-quart capacity as full and ram-air, F60-15 tires, wide ratio 4-speed and 3.91 gears as standard. 351CJ (280hp) was introduced in May '71. It was always VIN code "Q", never M. 351CJ was a 4-bolt main block. Pistons were the
same cast flat tops as the "M" code. Heads were identical to the M code --except-- that they used an open
combustion chamber design like the 351C-2V, reducing compression to around 9:1. Cam was a CJ specific grind, with a split duration
and lift (IIRC it was 280/290 duration, .480/.490 lift). 4-bolt main block, dual advance, dual point distributor was standard, oil capacity was 5 quarts, pan had a slosh plate over the sump. Intake was
cast iron with a Ford style spreadbore pattern, Autolite 4300D carb. Exhaust manifold outlets were smaller than Boss at 2 1/4", but larger than M's 2" outlets. All CJ's equipped
with an automatic got a C-6 with a special hi-stall torque converter (@ 2500rpms). 1972, M-code was gone. Q-code CJ continued essentially unchanged, but was now rated at 266 hp, due to the change
from Gross horsepower ratings to SAE Net horsepower ratings. Only other change was to retard the cam 4 degrees for
emissions purposes (this was apparently a corporate wide thing, all engines received this mod). The Mustang-only R-code was back
for a second year, but was now known as the 351HO. It was no longer a specific model, it was just a drivetrain option.
Heads on the HO now had the open chamber design, cam was still mechanical, but now had 275 duration and .490 lift. 1973, R-code was gone, Q-code received dished pistons to drop the compression even further. Emissions equipment sprouted from the motor, EGR, spark timing etc. Horsepower was now rated at 264.
At some time in the 73 model year, the CJ's received smaller valves in the heads. Valve sizes went from 2.19 I / 1.77" E to
2.05" I / 1.66" E, same as the 2V 351C. 1974, Q-code continued on in the Torino. By this time, it was so emasculated by emissions equipment (EGR, TRS, etc) that I don't wanna got here.
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Lightning Fast Fords
Gearhead Posts: 122
From: Charlotte , N.C. USA
Registered: Aug 2004
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posted 12-15-2004 05:02 PM
HemKiller, Thank you very very much for that informative post. I honestly got more out of that in the condensed form than I have ever gotten out of books on the 351C that I spent money on. You obviously know your Clevelands well !! 
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 12-15-2004 05:54 PM
some corrections.
351 CJ had a juice cam
72 351 HO had mechanical cam, aluminum intake and 780 Holley carb.------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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sic67coug
Gearhead Posts: 189
From: clearlake california
Registered: Dec 2002
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posted 12-15-2004 06:43 PM
thank you very much im not so worried now cuz a friend of mine sold me a351cj for 100 bux plenty of rust in the engine though rippin it apart now and if nothings cracked ( fingers crossed) ill totally be stoked to build this thing and put it in my cougar. you guys rock
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 6098
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 12-15-2004 07:36 PM
quote:
Originally posted by sic67coug:
.. a friend of mine sold me a351cj for 100 bux ...
That's a great deal if nothing is cracked. The bare heads are worth around $300.
And don't let anyone tell you the open chamber heads wont make power. I've ran them and gotten into the 9's. And I've outran plenty of guys with the 'better'  closed chamber heads who had just as much, if not more money in their motors.
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clevelandstyle
Gearhead Posts: 1035
From: Connersville, IN
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 12-15-2004 08:21 PM
quote:
Originally posted by kid vishus:
And I've outran plenty of guys with the 'better' closed chamber heads....
Hey! That's a low blow. Kind of hurts. 
------------------
Ben
Grabber Green '70 Mach I 351C 4V
Robbin Egg Blue '79 Fairmont 408C 4V, best time to date is 10.50 best MPH 127
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73torinoqcode
Gearhead Posts: 361
From: Buffalo,NY,USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted 12-16-2004 01:01 AM
Just to add on the head topic if it is a 73 engine and the heads are cast AA on the inside they are the small valves. I have them on my engine.
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sic67coug
Gearhead Posts: 189
From: clearlake california
Registered: Dec 2002
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posted 12-16-2004 03:18 AM
thanks for all the info i apreciate it. im wondering who makes a good crank for this thing. im goin full on rebuild lookin for 450 streetable horses and figured the crank is a good place to start im keeping the stock heads if nothings crackedso maybe i should just wait till i know forsure before i start asking for building suggestions
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clevelandstyle
Gearhead Posts: 1035
From: Connersville, IN
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 12-16-2004 06:49 AM
The stock crank is good. You don't need an aftermarket crank unless you are going to stroke it. With proper machining and balance the stock crank and rods can handle as much power as you can through at it. ------------------
Ben
Grabber Green '70 Mach I 351C 4V
Robbin Egg Blue '79 Fairmont 408C 4V, best time to date is 10.50 best MPH 127
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Rustang
Gearhead Posts: 733
From: Clarion PA
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 12-16-2004 06:50 AM
Unless the stock crank's junk I'd just reuse it. They're plenty stout for 450 horse. Just get it checked for cracks, and make sure when it's turned they leave a good radius in the journal fillets. You could probably even reuse the rods after they've been mag'd, polished and shot-peened, although as old as that motor is, and if the history's questionable you might want to go to an aftermarket rod(eagle or equal). I'd go with the TRW forged flat top. They're fairly cheap and rugged as hell. Oh yeah, one very important thing with the cleveland, only bore it enough to clean up the cylinders, and no more! Anything over .030" oversize is too much unless you get the wall thickness checked.  Good luck, and 450 horse out of one of those beasts is very realistic with little work!  ------------------
'68 mustang 351 clevor- 10.92@124
'67 Stang, 351W -11.18@118
'69 351C Torino-14.90@100
'78 Pickup 351W-15.56@88
'79 Pickup 460 ET=??
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 6098
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 12-16-2004 07:40 AM
The block will eventually be your weak link, not the crank, or the rods. At the 450 hp level, adding ARP bolts, having the rods resized and magged for cracks would be adequete. You will need all new valves for the heads, the stock valves are junk.
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Hemikiller
Gearhead Posts: 606
From: Killingworth, CT
Registered: Feb 2002
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posted 12-16-2004 10:35 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
some corrections.
351 CJ had a juice cam
72 351 HO had mechanical cam, aluminum intake and 780 Holley carb.
Alex, thanks on the HO info. Forgot to put that in, but will update my file. I keep this text in a file. I use it whenever I see someone asking about C's and the differences. So many changes, so confusing to guys new to Clevelands.
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Daniel Jones
Gearhead Posts: 813
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Aug 99
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posted 12-16-2004 12:11 PM
> 351 CJ had a juice camYes with the same specs as a 428CJ cam. > 72 351 HO had mechanical cam, aluminum intake and 780 Holley carb. All the HO's I've seen had Motorcraft 4300D spread-bore carbs mounted
on aluminum intakes. I've seen 750 or 715 CFM claimed for that carb.
Ford also offered a square bore over-the-counter version of that intake.
The HO's also had the Boss-type baffled oil pan and cast aluminum valve
covers. Pistons were forged flat tops. > The stock crank is good. You don't need an aftermarket crank unless you
> are going to stroke it. Even if you are going to stroke it, you can use the stock crank which
can be offset ground to 3.7" or 3.75" stroke. The 3.7" offset ground
351C crank with 6" small journal aftermarket small block Chevy rods,
and flat top Wiseco pistons is a popular combo with the Pantera crowd.
A friend runs one in his open road race Pantera. It's a street driven
car with 470HP at the rear wheels, enough to go 180+ MPH in the Silver
State and Pony Express runs. > That's a great deal if nothing is cracked. The bare heads are worth
> around $300. I've got a pair that came off my Pantera that are like new. They
have around 18,000 miles on them. I'll sell them if anyone is
interested. Dan Jones
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 12-16-2004 12:16 PM
Issued: 5 May 1972
Revised: 9-25-79, 5-4-98, 8-1-99, 12-2-02
Bulletin #: FORD-72 Page 1 of 2
Specifications for the 1972 Ford Motor Company engines.HP Disp C.R. Ind. Make Model/Transmission Manifold R.R. Lifter Head cc Notes
54 97 8.84 1-1 Auto 72IF-KFA/SM ONLY 70IF-BA 1.54 M 6.6 A
82 170 9.09 1-1 Cart D2DF-AA/SM D2PF-EA/AUTO NA 1.50 H 49.6 B
86 122 9.76 1-2 Holl D22F-BA,DA,BB,DB,BC/SM 71HF-HB 1.60 M 48.2 1,C
91 200 9.38 1-1 Cart D2DF-BA,CA/SM NA 1.50 H 51.5 2,D
95 250 9.75 1-1 Cart D2OF-LA/SM MA,SA/AUTO NA 1.50 H 51.5 D
99 250 9.75 1-1 Cart D2OF-LA/SM MA,SA/AUTO NA 1.50 H 51.5 D
103 240 9.00 1-1 Cart D2AF-JA/AUTO ONLY C5AF-J 1.61 H 64.8 E
107 156 9.80 1-2 Holl 72TF-BEA/SM BFA/AUTO 71TF-AA 1.46 M 37.5 F
140 302 9.46 1-2 Auto D2OF-KA,NA/SM D2AF-HA/AUTO D1TE/D1DE-AA 1.61 H 56.7 3,G
141 302 9.46 1-2 Auto D2OF-KA,NA/SM D2AF-HA/AUTO D1TE/D1DE-AA 1.61 H 56.7 3,G
143 302 9.46 1-2 Auto D2OF-KA,NA/SM D2AF-HA/AUTO D1TE/D1DE-AA 1.61 H 56.7 3,G
153 351 9.63 1-2 Auto D22F-EA/SM D22F-GA/AUTO D1AE-CA 1.60 H W 58.3 H
161 351 9.45 1-2 Auto D22F-LA/SM D22F-UA,RA/AUTO D1AE-DA 1.73 H C 72.9 I
163 351 9.45 1-2 Auto D22F-LA/SM D22F-UA,RA/AUTO D1AE-DA 1.73 H C 72.9 I
164 351 9.45 1-2 Auto D22F-LA/SM D22F-UA,RA/AUTO D1AE-DA 1.73 H C 72.9 I
168 400 9.19 1-2 Auto D2MF-CA,DA,DB/SM D2SE-AA 1.73 H 75.6 4,J
172 400 9.19 1-2 Auto D2MF-CA,DA,DB/SM D2SE-AA 1.73 H 75.6 4,J
177 351 9.45 1-2 Auto D22F-LA/SM UA,RA/AUTO D1AE-DA 1.73 H C 72.9 I
200 460 9.30 1-4 Auto D2AF-AB,D2SF-AB,D2PF-SA,BB DOVE-B 1.73 H 86.5 5,K
205 429 9.40 1-4 Auto D2AF-AA,BA,KA,AB/AUTO ONLY DOVE-B 1.73 H 86.5 6,K
208 429 9.40 1-4 Auto D2AF-AA,BA,KA,AB/AUTO ONLY DOVE-B 1.73 H 86.5 6,K
212 429 9.40 1-4 Auto D2AF-AA,BA,KA,AB/AUTO ONLY DOVE-B 1.73 H 86.5 6,K
212 460 9.30 1-4 Auto D2AF-AB,D2SF-AB,D2PF-SA,BB DOVE-B 1.73 H 86.5 5,K
248 351 9.40 1-4 Auto D2ZF-AA,CA,D2PF-TA/SM D1ZE-BB,Note 8 1.73 H C 72.6 7,L
266 351 9.40 1-4 Auto D2ZF-AA,CA,D2PF-TA/SM D1ZE-BB,Note 8 1.73 H C 72.6 7,L
275 351 10.30 1-4 Au/HoD0ZZ-Z,D2ZF-GA/ALL D1ZX-AA,Note 8 1.73 M C 65.9 M
See last entry.
------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
IP: Logged |
73torinoqcode
Gearhead Posts: 361
From: Buffalo,NY,USA
Registered: Jun 2003
|
posted 12-16-2004 01:20 PM
quote:
Originally posted by sic67coug:
thanks for all the info i apreciate it. im wondering who makes a good crank for this thing. im goin full on rebuild lookin for 450 streetable horses and figured the crank is a good place to start im keeping the stock heads if nothings crackedso maybe i should just wait till i know forsure before i start asking for building suggestions
If they have the AA castings you might want to have the heads machined to accept the larger valves. I am in the process of the identicle build myself. I should be at 450 HP when done. You also may want to mill the heads to get the CR up a bit maybe .030 or so. A freind of mine did a very similar motor and it was right around 425-450 HP. Forged flat tops are the way to go.
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Daniel Jones
Gearhead Posts: 813
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Aug 99
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posted 12-16-2004 04:45 PM
> 275 351 10.30 1-4 Au/Ho D0ZZ-Z,D2ZF-GA/ALL D1ZX-AA,Note 8 1.73 M C 65.9 M
>
> See last entry.Those are the NHRA legal specs right? Are you implying this is how Ford
built them or what NHRA will let you run in "stock" classes? Note 8 refers
to alternate intakes (8-Alt alum manifolds D1ZX-CA,D1ZX-AA,D1ZX-DA). The
compression ratio (10.3:1) and cc's (65.9) don't sound right for the open
chamber, flat top, 351C HO. I checked the entry for the '71 BOSS 351: HP Disp C.R. Ind. Make Model/Transmission Manifold R.R. Lifter Head cc Notes
330 351 11.80 1-4 Au/Ho D1ZF-FA,D0ZF-Z/SM ONLY D1ZX-AA,Note11 1.73 M 64.6 K HP Disp Cl Type Height Vol Valves Cam Lift Gasket Springs
330 351 .008 Dome .315 8.0 cc 2198/1717 502/502 .036 Outer w Damper Several suspect things here too. They show a 1.3cc difference between the
open chamber heads of the HO and the closed chamber heads of the Boss 351.
The cam specs don't match with the factory Ford info I have either. They
show 0.502" lift for the Boss 351 cam and 0.515" lift for the HO cam. The
period Ford literature shows 0.477" for the Boss 351 and 0.490" for the HO. Dan Jones
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 12-16-2004 05:36 PM
These specifications are based solely on the NVMA information submited by the manufacturers at time of introduction.
I have several hundred pages of them covering vehicles I race now or used to race or planned on racing.
These specs are submited to the DOT, in addition to all NA race sanctioning bodies.
They not only have engine specs, but weights, emission devices, saftey items, and drive train options in particular bodies.
Very detailed stuff.------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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Lightning Fast Fords
Gearhead Posts: 122
From: Charlotte , N.C. USA
Registered: Aug 2004
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posted 12-16-2004 06:03 PM
Can someone clue me in as to whom sells a CJ "Juiced Cam"?My 351C build is going in this direction..and I would like to obtain one as soon as possible.
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 12-16-2004 06:09 PM
Minute Maid or Tropicana.
------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com [This message has been edited by Moneymaker (edited 12-16-2004).]
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Lightning Fast Fords
Gearhead Posts: 122
From: Charlotte , N.C. USA
Registered: Aug 2004
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posted 12-16-2004 06:22 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
Minute Maid or Tropicana.
Gee Alex , Thanks a Metric Ton
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
|
posted 12-16-2004 07:03 PM
"Juice" is a hot rod slang for hydraulic lifter camshafts.------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
IP: Logged |
sic67coug
Gearhead Posts: 189
From: clearlake california
Registered: Dec 2002
|
posted 12-16-2004 08:13 PM
ok what does it mean when you pull the oil pan plug and about half a gallon - a gallon of water comes out? is this good?lol im worried that i got snookered
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Lightning Fast Fords
Gearhead Posts: 122
From: Charlotte , N.C. USA
Registered: Aug 2004
|
posted 12-16-2004 08:20 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
"Juice" is a hot rod slang for hydraulic lifter camshafts.
Alex , I'm up on that part...I'm looking for a brand name...and the ratio to meet or posibly exceed the CJ's Stock Specs. My Torino is going to be more of a Blvd. Brawler...so I don't need it to idle like a used up dump truck yet run like pure T hell only at High RPM's
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roger
Gearhead Posts: 195
From: ontario, canada
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 12-18-2004 07:49 PM
sic67coug: has the engine been sitting a long time? or started, run a shortime & shut off, days in a row?
condensation? I had this at a body shop that drove my car everyday from a tent structure into the main shop, so car was started, run for 5 minutes & parked, 10-14 days in a row, the condensation never got to burn off, hence, tons of water that scared the s--t out of me!! But, a simple oil change,(we did flush the mill to) & all was well
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sic67coug
Gearhead Posts: 189
From: clearlake california
Registered: Dec 2002
|
posted 12-20-2004 01:37 PM
im now sure all the guy told me is that the engine ran when he pulled it out , but he smokes alot of ummmmm THC and he might be talkin about a different motor
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