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Author
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Topic: Not so Hi-po
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johnny 4-speed
Gearhead Posts: 172
From: Larkspur, Ca. USA
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 12-12-2004 12:54 AM
   
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[This message has been edited by johnny 4-speed (edited 12-12-2004).]
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johnny 4-speed
Gearhead Posts: 172
From: Larkspur, Ca. USA
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 12-12-2004 01:01 AM
quote:
Originally posted by johnny 4-speed:
Can you estimate the power output of an engine, by its combination of parts? My 65 Fairlane's 289 runs and sounds great, but 1/4 mile times and trap speeds are weak (13.24 @ 105). Do you see anything mismatched?
1967 289 (+.030"),0 deck
Cast crank w./studs & windage tray
Hi-po rods w./3/8"ARP, polished
TRW 2249 pop-up pistons, polished
10.35:1 final CR
Crane Cam 363841(.512/.533-238*/248*-114 LS)
Wolrd Products Windsor iron heads 2.02/1.60
Crane springs # 99893
1.6:1 roller rockers, guideplates, pushrods
Victor Jr manifold
700DP, original jetting
Edlebrock mech. pump, stock fuel line
Crane Hi-6 box w.PS-92 coil
MSD 8582 dist @ 37 BTDC
Hooker Super comps w./1 5/8" prim./ 3" coll.
Top loader w./competition plus
10.5" 3000lb. Ram clutch
5.13:1, 9-inch, Locker
10.5" Hoosier Dot Pro's
3300 lbs. w./ driver.
Any advice would be really appriciated! JD
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johnny 4-speed
Gearhead Posts: 172
From: Larkspur, Ca. USA
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 12-12-2004 01:02 AM
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 9489
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 12-12-2004 01:04 AM
I don't like the cam. Too wide a LS and not big enough for a high winding 289 with 5.13 gears. You must be turning 7,000+ through the traps but the cam is too small for that. IMO anyway. The original jetting of the carb may be hurting you too.
What are your short times? 105 mph should be quicker than 13.24s
It doesn't run bad for a 3300 pound 289 though, but it could be better. Good luck,SteveW
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johnny 4-speed
Gearhead Posts: 172
From: Larkspur, Ca. USA
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 12-12-2004 01:10 AM
Turns 6300 through the lites, Crane says 6500 max RPM, float at 6800. Best 60ft:1.77 JD[This message has been edited by johnny 4-speed (edited 12-12-2004).]
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 9489
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 12-12-2004 01:19 AM
How tall are those Hoosiers?SteveW
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johnny 4-speed
Gearhead Posts: 172
From: Larkspur, Ca. USA
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 12-12-2004 01:21 AM
27 inches, but if you do the math(168x5.13x105 / 13.5 = 6700RPM! Numbers don't lie! I guess it must have been 6700. JD[This message has been edited by johnny 4-speed (edited 12-12-2004).]
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 9489
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 12-12-2004 01:31 AM
Johnny,With your manual tranny and a 1-1 high gear you should be 6700+ rpms at 105 mph with 27" tall slicks. Maybe your tach is off? The 105 mph is good for high 12s too with a better launch and quicker shifting. Good luck and have fun, SteveW
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bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 1724
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 12-12-2004 03:54 AM
I don't like the cam either. Looks like something you would use on a blower or nitrous motor. Too much scavenging. The lift is low for the duration which means that the valve action is not very aggressive. Faster valve lift means more torque which you really need with a n/a 4sp. The wide spread and 114 lobe seperation is killing your mid range too. I would go with a custom grind with about 240in./246ex. @.050 and around .560/.580 lift on 108 lobe center. Power will come on alot stronger. ------------------
1966 Mustang Coupe: Custom glass hood and BIG scoop sits atop a 289 stroked to 331 c.i., Steel crank, rods and girdle, TFS alum. heads, Stealth 8020 intake, Xtreme 268 Solid Roller, Holley 750 HP, long tubes, 4speed, 9" 3.50 posi.
11.50 @ 116 mph (7.33 @ 93 mph)daily driver!
DanH
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johnny 4-speed
Gearhead Posts: 172
From: Larkspur, Ca. USA
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 12-12-2004 02:01 PM
More cam, eh? That will be the third cam for this 289, each bigger then the last. Sounds good, though. JD
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AZFairlane
Journeyman Posts: 17
From: Phx, AZ USA
Registered: May 2003
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posted 12-12-2004 05:53 PM
Johnny,
I had almost an identical setup in a '63 Fairlane back in the 70's(long ago). The differences I see are:
more comp. 12.5 to 1
5.43 gears
self ported 351W heads(yours are probably better)
750 Holley DP with some work done to it
Crane solid cam with .576 lift, I don't remember the rest of the specs(30 years ago)
Anyway, my car ran 12.70, and with todays parts yours should cruise into the low 12'sGet more cam and good luck. Joe
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chip67
Gearhead Posts: 245
From: louisville, ky, jefferson
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 12-12-2004 09:22 PM
i dont like the cam and i think the carb is a tad big. if you were running a dual plane manifold like an rpm the carb might be closer but id keep the vic. jr and get a 650. the lsa on the cam is too wide. last thing is you need to get your 60 ft. times down.------------------
coupe, 306, 4 speed, 4.11's. pump gas, n/a street car. best so far is 7.48 (1/8 mile) at 93mph with 1.64 60ft. 11.80 at 113 on greased 1/4 track.
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johnny 4-speed
Gearhead Posts: 172
From: Larkspur, Ca. USA
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 12-13-2004 01:21 PM
I like the idea of more cam. The engine has responded well to larger cams, but I thought I was nearing the limits of my compression. I used to run a single feed, vacuum secondary, Holley 600. What a great street carb! Thought the 700DP would allow for future engine mods. It seems OK right now, but the idle-intermediate transition is a little rough. JD
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chip67
Gearhead Posts: 245
From: louisville, ky, jefferson
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 12-13-2004 04:13 PM
not saying the cam is too small for what you have, just the lsa is too wide.------------------
coupe, 306, 4 speed, 4.11's. pump gas, n/a street car. best so far is 7.48 (1/8 mile) at 93mph with 1.64 60ft. 11.80 at 113 on greased 1/4 track.
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johnny 4-speed
Gearhead Posts: 172
From: Larkspur, Ca. USA
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 12-13-2004 08:06 PM
I'm making two more sets of spring clamps for the front half of the leaves. Maybe that will help the 60fts. JD
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chip67
Gearhead Posts: 245
From: louisville, ky, jefferson
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 12-13-2004 08:35 PM
do you have cal-tracs or decent slapper bars? i tried the spring clamps and didnt help at all. you know the car is geared low and ive seen that kill et's. ------------------
coupe, 306, 4 speed, 4.11's. pump gas, n/a street car. best so far is 7.48 (1/8 mile) at 93mph with 1.64 60ft. 11.80 at 113 on greased 1/4 track.
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johnny 4-speed
Gearhead Posts: 172
From: Larkspur, Ca. USA
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 12-13-2004 10:27 PM
I put off installing slapper bars, cuz I don't like seeing those things underneath hot rods, it takes away from the stock/sleeper apearance. But the wheel hop was so bad, I had to do something. I ended up buying a set of C.E. slapper bars w. integral lower spring plates. They really helped. As of tonight, I have 3 sets of spring clamps on the front half of the springs. As for the gears, I had 3.90's before, but never used 4th on the strip. Now, I use all 4....I just don't know if that's a good thing. I thought it was. I used Edelbrock's conversion charts to find a gear that would put my RPM's in a good spot through the lights. The results were disapointing...
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 9489
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 12-13-2004 11:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by johnny 4-speed:
I had 3.90's before, but never used 4th on the strip. Now, I use all 4....I just don't know if that's a good thing. I thought it was. I used Edelbrock's conversion charts to find a gear that would put my RPM's in a good spot through the lights. The results were disapointing...
That's because of the high SLR (starting line ratuo) and the time for the extra shift. If you want to do that, shift w/o the clutch and get a good launch. Maybe some of our S or SS racers can help you out.  SteveW
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johnny 4-speed
Gearhead Posts: 172
From: Larkspur, Ca. USA
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 12-14-2004 12:56 AM
That poor man's Jerico sounds mighty tasty. What's a SLR?[This message has been edited by johnny 4-speed (edited 12-14-2004).]
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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead Posts: 2289
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 12-14-2004 05:26 PM
Your Starting Line Ratio (SLR) is determined by multiplying your first gear ratio by your rear end gear. For instance, if you're running a OE wide-ratio Toploader with a first gear of 2.78 and your rear end gear of 5.13, then your SLR is 14.26. Many SBF folks seem to like a SLR range of 11.25 to 12.25 in seeking their optimum traction/torque/power.To see this "over-gearing in action", watch a 5.0 guy running a WC 5-speed that has a first gear of 3.35 with 4.56 rear gears -- when he comes off the line, he's likely spinning hard because he's blowing the tires away with a SLR of 15.28 !! He'd be able to find traction easier with 3.55 rear gears, resulting in a SLR of 11.89. What are you referring to as, "...a poor man's Jerico..."? Ryan
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 9489
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 12-14-2004 05:30 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Ryan Wilke:
What are you referring to as, "...a poor man's Jerico..."? Ryan
Right on the SLR. Poor man's Jerico is a modified Top Loader. (crash box). SteveW
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johnny 4-speed
Gearhead Posts: 172
From: Larkspur, Ca. USA
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 12-14-2004 06:38 PM
Thanks for the reply on SLR. I was taught that manual transmissions reqiure a little bit of tire spin out of the hole, as not to bog when the clutch is released. Is that correct?
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Catmando
Gearhead Posts: 183
From: Vermilion, OH USA
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 12-15-2004 11:20 AM
J4spd, like Ryan said, that first gear ratio may be hurting you. I had a 335 first in a 5.0 that I was running 12.80's with, I had 4.10's with a 28" tire. It seemed like I was grabbing 2nd as my rear tires passed the stage line!!!! Far less motor than yours so Ryan may be correct. As for your trap rpm / tire size calculations not working out, I think you may have two things messing up the calculations: 1) as stated, tac is off 2) tire growth! Im sure some tires are worse than others but I would imagine your 27 inch tire is maybe 28 or greater at speed. A friend of mine was running 29's on a car, and through the traps they grew enough to start hitting the wheel lip. Dangerous!
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johnny 4-speed
Gearhead Posts: 172
From: Larkspur, Ca. USA
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 12-15-2004 01:21 PM
Catmando, funny you should mention that. A few months back, I was waiting in the lanes at Sears Point, when a guy and I started talking. He seemed like he knew what he was talking about, even if he had booze breath. When I told him what rear gear I had, he suggested launching in SECOND GEAR! I'm a gullable person, but I wasn't about to try that durring elimination rounds. This thread reminded me about that conversation. JD
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Catmando
Gearhead Posts: 183
From: Vermilion, OH USA
Registered: Jun 2004
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posted 12-16-2004 12:53 AM
Launching in 2nd would be creating a 3spd powerglide..........yawn!
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chip67
Gearhead Posts: 245
From: louisville, ky, jefferson
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 12-16-2004 07:30 PM
i think you would like a 4.11 to a 4.30. go with the 4.11's if you wanna drive it on the street. i might try a 26 in tire when i wear these 28's out, if i keep racing. a t-5 and bigger stereo might make this car my daily driver again. ------------------
coupe, 306, 4 speed, 4.11's. pump gas, n/a street car. best so far is 7.48 (1/8 mile) at 93mph with 1.64 60ft. 11.80 at 113 on greased 1/4 track.
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 9489
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 12-16-2004 11:18 PM
Johnny,Do you run at Sears Point/Infenion often? Wednesday nights or weekend races? Do you know Glens67 or MelzPny? SteveW
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johnny 4-speed
Gearhead Posts: 172
From: Larkspur, Ca. USA
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 12-17-2004 12:39 PM
Yeah, Steve. I usually run at Sears Point, but the place gets so packed with ricers, time between runs seems like an eternity. I've cruised out to Sac. a couple of times (4000 RPM in the slow lane). I raced my dad's 67 442 there 2 week ago. And, yes I do know Glen(I have his shoe polish), and I've spoken to Melissa in the pits before, too. In fact, we've probably met. I hear your setting up a run to Sac, I'd be up for it. Lemmi know when, I'll try to be there.JD
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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead Posts: 2289
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 12-19-2004 09:14 AM
quote:
Originally posted by chip67:
...if i keep racing. a t-5 and bigger stereo might make this car my daily driver again.
What's up with that,,,"if I keep racing?" talk, Chip67? Ryan
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johnny 4-speed
Gearhead Posts: 172
From: Larkspur, Ca. USA
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 12-20-2004 08:30 PM
Put the titanium retainers in over the weekend. Went smoothly, using the old rope-in-the-cyl. bore technique. Took her on a test run down to San Francisco, guess what?! I gained 500 RPM. My motor never reved much past 7300, but 8000? Wow! Now if I just had a cam.....
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TomP
Gearhead Posts: 6007
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99
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posted 12-22-2004 04:24 PM
With 5.13 gears you may be a candidate for taller tires or an overdrive tranny. Sacramento must seem like a long trip with those gears!
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TomP
Gearhead Posts: 6007
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99
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posted 12-22-2004 04:32 PM
Just a sec... i don't see where it was specified that he's running a wide ratio t/l. If the tranny is a close ratio with 2.32 low there is some ET to be had by swapping it to a wide ratio. A 2.32 low with 5.13 rear isn't overkill but would be outrun by a 2.78 low and 4.56's.
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johnny 4-speed
Gearhead Posts: 172
From: Larkspur, Ca. USA
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 12-22-2004 08:41 PM
Sac-to does seem like an eternity. I'm on the hunt for a set of custom offset steel wheels. I'd like to put the tallest tire that'll fit in the wheelwell, width is not important, gettin' those highway R's down is.
About the wide ratio vs. close ratio, how would I be able to tell which one it is? JD
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