|
Author
|
Topic: Some locker questions
|
BLstangin
Gearhead Posts: 779
From: St. James, MN
Registered: Apr 2002
|
posted 12-09-2004 11:24 PM
   
Currently have a 9" with a powertrax lock-rite locker in it, 3.50 gears, and all new timken bearings in it. It's the 3.062 bearing. has maybe 50 miles on it. I'm debating just selling it complete and using a set of 3.89 gears, and a some sort of a detroit locker. It is 99% street driven and was looking at the true trac, is this a better locker than the regular detroit? Which locker is the best for me. I think that the true trac has helical gears or something so it's supposed to be smooth correct? Anyone be interested in my other center if I decide to do it?------------------
1970 coupe restored with the help of my dad. 306 with 650 dp holley, Weiand Stealth intake, headers, mme custom roller cam, harland sharp roller rockers, kb pistons, 10.3:1 compression ratio, pertonix ignitor 2 with matched coil, lakewood bellhousing, 4-speed toploader, and 3.50 9" locker rear.
1986 f-150, 5.0, factory towing package with original c-6 trans
IP: Logged |
ted
Journeyman Posts: 62
From: Central Texas
Registered: May 2003
|
posted 12-10-2004 02:08 PM
It sounds like you're using the term "locker" to describe any posi-traction device. If if has clutches as in the case of the "Tru-Trac" then the posi unit would be a limited-slip unit and not a true locker. The Detroit Locker to which you refer has cogged hubs that literally lock together under acceleration giving the same axle locking potential of a spool. A limited slip differential will allow both axles to spin equally under most straight line circumstances but will allow the axles to slip while turning. A worn limited slip differential does require servicing as the clutch pack and/or springs may not allow the axles to remain hooked up when desired. Hot rear end oil can also cause some premature slippage at the clutches. Depending upon which materials are used within the clutch pack, specific friction modifiers may be required with the rear end oil to alleviate chatter that can occur otherwise.Ted. ------------------
Ted E.
Fe's are plenty fast, but "Y"'s are fun when they run in the nines.
IP: Logged |
indyphil
Gearhead Posts: 2398
From: Senoia, G.A. USA
Registered: Jul 2002
|
posted 12-10-2004 02:37 PM
And secondly I think they all use helical gears.------------------
'68 coupe, '66 289 C code
engine, edel 600cfm carb, performer intake, dual exhaust http://www.geocities.com/ottouk_77/68mustang.htm
IP: Logged |
BLstangin
Gearhead Posts: 779
From: St. James, MN
Registered: Apr 2002
|
posted 12-10-2004 02:38 PM
Ya, I understand, and was using the term locker in general. I was wondering how the true trac compares to the detroit in the way it acts, if it slips when you give it power around a corner or if it locks the axles together sort of speak like a detroit locker.------------------
1970 coupe restored with the help of my dad. 306 with 650 dp holley, Weiand Stealth intake, headers, mme custom roller cam, harland sharp roller rockers, kb pistons, 10.3:1 compression ratio, pertonix ignitor 2 with matched coil, lakewood bellhousing, 4-speed toploader, and 3.50 9" locker rear.
1986 f-150, 5.0, factory towing package with original c-6 trans
IP: Logged |
f100cleveland
Gearhead Posts: 295
From: St. James, MN
Registered: Sep 2004
|
posted 12-10-2004 03:52 PM
The factory Ford Trac-Lok will essentually "lock" both rear tires when cornering if power is applied to it. I'm guessing the new helical geared Detroit Locker would basically have the same characteristics of the original limited slips. I'd also bet the helical geared Detroit wouldn't have chatter or give you the "jerky" feeling when corning in a no load situation. For the money, I don't think the original Detroit Locker can be beat.------------------
1982 Ford F100 2wd Shortbox. Powered by a 357 Cleveland w/ closed chamber 4v's. Full Roller c-6 trans and 4.86 geared Detroit Locker equipped 9" rear. 1982 F100 351c 4v 1977 F150 460 Burnout Truck [This message has been edited by f100cleveland (edited 12-10-2004).]
IP: Logged |
ted
Journeyman Posts: 62
From: Central Texas
Registered: May 2003
|
posted 12-10-2004 04:09 PM
I'm not familiar with the helical geared Detroit Locker at all. I've had several of the original Detroit Lockers and besides the "clacking" noise when you're making a corner, they are pretty much a bullet proof piece. The only nuance I've had with them is insuring that they are truly locked when getting ready to launch as I've had on occaision to experience a slight sideways jerking motion upon launching when they were not locked at moment of launch. My roadrace buddies prefer the limited slip differentials over the Detroit Lockers as the limited slip units are not as sensitive to breaking the back end of the cars loose in tight corners.Ted. ------------------
Ted E.
Fe's are plenty fast, but "Y"'s are fun when they run in the nines.
IP: Logged |
Bloose
Gearhead Posts: 621
From: Milwaukee, WI
Registered: Dec 2001
|
posted 12-10-2004 06:09 PM
quote:
Originally posted by f100cleveland:
The factory Ford Trac-Lok will essentually "lock" both rear tires when cornering if power is applied to it. I'm guessing the new helical geared Detroit Locker would basically have the same characteristics of the original limited slips. I'd also bet the helical geared Detroit wouldn't have chatter or give you the "jerky" feeling when corning in a no load situation. For the money, I don't think the original Detroit Locker can be beat.
IP: Logged |
Bloose
Gearhead Posts: 621
From: Milwaukee, WI
Registered: Dec 2001
|
posted 12-10-2004 07:38 PM
quote:
Originally posted by f100cleveland:
The factory Ford Trac-Lok will essentually "lock" both rear tires when cornering if power is applied to it. I'm guessing the new helical geared Detroit Locker would basically have the same characteristics of the original limited slips. I'd also bet the helical geared Detroit wouldn't have chatter or give you the "jerky" feeling when corning in a no load situation. For the money, I don't think the original Detroit Locker can be beat.
Oop's forgot to type!
The way I understand it is that a standard type limited slip diff uses clutch plates and springs to lock the left and right axles together. Each side has steels and clutches with some sort of spring setup between them pushing against them. When you go around a turn there is enough rotational force on the clutches to over come them and cause them to "slip". If more torque is applied there is even more force to over come them. Also once you cause something to slip the coefficient of friction is drastically reduced making it even easier to slip. This why they are considered limited slip. They are locked together until there is anough of a torque differential to overcome the clutches, then they slip, but there is still torque to the opposing tire through the clutches. With time and mileage all that slipping causes the clutches to wear. In time the diff starts to slip more and more until the clutches and steels are replaced. The True Track seems to work on the opposite principal. In that it is open until there is a torque difference between the two axles. The torque (or speed) difference causes the gears to be forced into the side of the case and causes them to bind on the case and apply torque to the slipping axle. They do not really wear out like most LSD's becase the case side is hardend and and wear is automatically taken up. These work OK but you have to remember that you need some slip to get them to work. So you'll have a tire spinning somewhat before the other locks up. Once a tire spins the coefficient thing applies. Good for snow, mud, off road, but probably not great for racing. B-loose
IP: Logged |
n2oMike
Gearhead Posts: 2419
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001
|
posted 12-10-2004 08:47 PM
Tractech makes the genuine Detroit Locker. They also make the TrueTrac. The TrueTrac is a Torsen type differential that uses helical gears to bind the unit up under power. It has no clutches to wear out.Here is a selection of diffs offered by Truetrac. http://www.tractech.com/Products.htm Good Luck! ------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220
IP: Logged |
chip67
Gearhead Posts: 245
From: louisville, ky, jefferson
Registered: Oct 2004
|
posted 12-11-2004 12:24 AM
went from the original trac lock with clutches to the detroit locker for drag racing. the car is way better on the strip but wouldnt take it cornering. seems like the detroit doesnt want to disengage as easily in turns.------------------
coupe, 306, 4 speed, 4.11's. pump gas, n/a street car. best so far is 7.48 (1/8 mile) at 93mph with 1.64 60ft. 11.80 at 113 on greased 1/4 track.
IP: Logged |
BLstangin
Gearhead Posts: 779
From: St. James, MN
Registered: Apr 2002
|
posted 12-11-2004 01:07 AM
Yes, I understand how they all work, but I am wondering which one is a better choice for a street driven vehicle that will also probably end up at the track. I'm sure f100cleveland will get me talked into it!  The street driving is mainly around town though, but I also like to do some high speed cornering, but it isn't exactly set up as a road racer either. See what I'm saying, I just trying to decide if I should go wtih the original detroit, or the true trac with the helical gears?------------------
1970 coupe restored with the help of my dad. 306 with 650 dp holley, Weiand Stealth intake, headers, mme custom roller cam, harland sharp roller rockers, kb pistons, 10.3:1 compression ratio, pertonix ignitor 2 with matched coil, lakewood bellhousing, 4-speed toploader, and 3.50 9" locker rear.
1986 f-150, 5.0, factory towing package with original c-6 trans
IP: Logged |
f100cleveland
Gearhead Posts: 295
From: St. James, MN
Registered: Sep 2004
|
posted 12-11-2004 01:30 AM
If you want the best locker, get the ARB Air Locker!!! Its only about $808.50 But with the Original Detroit Locker, a lot of the difference in how it operates depends on the spring that is in it. Mine has the HD Ford Spring in it M-4214-D. It has a nominal load of 72 lbs vs the 58 lbs stock. If it would have the 58 lb spring in it, I'm sure the locker would disengage easier. Hey, if it don't like to turn at high speeds, looks like BLstangins gonna have to learn how do be a DRIFTER Question to others with Detroits. When letting off the gas or stepping on the gas when all ready cruising, does your vehicle want to dart either left or right? I don't notice it with my Detroit but I noticed in Brandon's Mustang with the Powertrax, it darts. And he got the Locker from my dad and he had it in a 1975 Bronco that has 6 inches of lift and 35's and that thing would shoot across the road if you weren't ready for it. I'm just curious if thats something most lockers do or is it just a Powertrax brand problem? ------------------
1982 Ford F100 2wd Shortbox. Powered by a 357 Cleveland w/ closed chamber 4v's. Full Roller c-6 trans and 4.86 geared Detroit Locker equipped 9" rear. 1982 F100 351c 4v 1977 F150 460 Burnout Truck
IP: Logged |
BLstangin
Gearhead Posts: 779
From: St. James, MN
Registered: Apr 2002
|
posted 12-11-2004 01:47 AM
Ya, inquiring minds want to know, what's with the darting, that's the big issue I have with it. I don't like it at all, if you're not ready for it, it can be a handful to drive. And I don't really want to be a drifter, tried that the other day in the daily driver on some ice and I guess it just isn't for me, to much happening to fast, just because I recovered that time doesn't mean I would again, plus I don't want it to happen in my car, I'm sure Dustin remembers the little incident at steves corner, that's what happens when you aren't expecting it and it goes sideways!  ------------------
1970 coupe restored with the help of my dad. 306 with 650 dp holley, Weiand Stealth intake, headers, mme custom roller cam, harland sharp roller rockers, kb pistons, 10.3:1 compression ratio, pertonix ignitor 2 with matched coil, lakewood bellhousing, 4-speed toploader, and 3.50 9" locker rear.
1986 f-150, 5.0, factory towing package with original c-6 trans
IP: Logged |
johnny 4-speed
Gearhead Posts: 149
From: Larkspur, Ca. USA
Registered: Oct 2004
|
posted 12-11-2004 09:38 PM
I run a gen-u-ine Detroit locker in my Fairlane. The only times I notice streetablity problems are:
1. Tight turns from a dead stop.(The rear will lock up if given a little too much throttle, making the tires chirp.)
2. Sharp throttle applications at highway speeds. ( There is a mild, but noticeble swerve if I step on it cruising down the road.)
3. Turns at highway speed. ( Twice I've gotten loose on the highway when rounding a turn WHILE ACCELERATING. The Locker snuck into locked mode and caught me sleeping.)Other than that, I love my Locker. At the track, or on the street, it'll take a lot of abuse.
I have a question, too... When I take my car on windy roads, is my Locker suffering b/c of all the locking and unlocking? JD ------------------
65 Fairlane
289ci
Top loader
9-inch w./5.13's & locker
27"x10.5 cheaters [This message has been edited by johnny 4-speed (edited 12-11-2004).]
IP: Logged |
Toronado3800
Gearhead Posts: 851
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Jul 2001
|
posted 12-12-2004 01:11 PM
Please get a regular posi set-up if you really drive and race this car on the street. No doubt the locker is tougher, but I don't think it will make a difference launching on street tires with 400hp motors.From the experience of my buddies and listening to Chip and Johnny it sounds unfair for you to take that chance with other people's and your own life on the public roads. Has anyone ever had a regular traction lock on a chassis dyno then switched to a locker to see if there was a difference?
IP: Logged |
66_stang
Journeyman Posts: 97
From: The woodlands Texas
Registered: Jul 2004
|
posted 12-12-2004 05:23 PM
not to hijack the thread but, what are some good streetable posi's that arent entirely to expensive? Just curious since where kinda on the subject.
IP: Logged |
bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 1724
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
|
posted 12-12-2004 06:58 PM
For the street, I say you can't beat a good tight tracion-loc rear. I rebuilt mine with new clutches and springs 2 yrs ago. I filled it with Heavvy synthetic gearbox oil and no extra additives. I still feel it chattering around corners when it's cold even after 2 yrs and hundreds of burnouts at the strip. She will throw the tailend around on a dime if needed.  ------------------
1966 Mustang Coupe: Custom glass hood and BIG scoop sits atop a 289 stroked to 331 c.i., Steel crank, rods and girdle, TFS alum. heads, Stealth 8020 intake, Xtreme 268 Solid Roller, Holley 750 HP, long tubes, 4speed, 9" 3.50 posi.
11.50 @ 116 mph (7.33 @ 93 mph)daily driver!
DanH
IP: Logged |
ccode67
Gearhead Posts: 2659
From: douglasville,ga,usa
Registered: Mar 2001
|
posted 12-13-2004 07:58 AM
quote:
Originally posted by f100cleveland:
If you want the best locker, get the ARB Air Locker!!! Its only about $808.50 But with the Original Detroit Locker, a lot of the difference in how it operates depends on the spring that is in it. Mine has the HD Ford Spring in it M-4214-D. It has a nominal load of 72 lbs vs the 58 lbs stock. If it would have the 58 lb spring in it, I'm sure the locker would disengage easier. Hey, if it don't like to turn at high speeds, looks like BLstangins gonna have to learn how do be a DRIFTER Question to others with Detroits. When letting off the gas or stepping on the gas when all ready cruising, does your vehicle want to dart either left or right? I don't notice it with my Detroit but I noticed in Brandon's Mustang with the Powertrax, it darts. And he got the Locker from my dad and he had it in a 1975 Bronco that has 6 inches of lift and 35's and that thing would shoot across the road if you weren't ready for it. I'm just curious if thats something most lockers do or is it just a Powertrax brand problem?
Mine does that. It is a Detroit Locker. It gets scary on wet pavement. ------------------
Stuart
MCA #48902
M&M #1091
67 stang 5 speed, 351W,
Edelbrock Performer RPM package my photo page
IP: Logged |
matt d
Journeyman Posts: 53
From: Coventry, CT USA
Registered: Mar 2003
|
posted 12-13-2004 12:48 PM
I have the TrueTrac in my ~420 fwhp '66 Mustang. It has the worm gears instead of clutches (like a Zexel Torsen).So far it seems perfect. I have never spun only one tire....it will break both free simultaneously in first or second gear with drag radials. It makes no noise on the street. The only limitation I have heard is that when you start getting really high in power and do drag launches with slicks, it will not be as strong as a locker. In the meantime, it seems like a perfect setup for a street strip car.
IP: Logged |
BLstangin
Gearhead Posts: 779
From: St. James, MN
Registered: Apr 2002
|
posted 12-13-2004 01:59 PM
O.k. Thanks, sounds like a good choice then, as I am only around 350-375fwhp, so I should be good with it then. So how does it act if you get on it going around a corner on a highway or something. How about when you get on it around a corner at a stop light what does it do? I may just get one.------------------
1970 coupe restored with the help of my dad. 306 with 650 dp holley, Weiand Stealth intake, headers, mme custom roller cam, harland sharp roller rockers, kb pistons, 10.3:1 compression ratio, pertonix ignitor 2 with matched coil, lakewood bellhousing, 4-speed toploader, and 3.50 9" locker rear.
1986 f-150, 5.0, factory towing package with original c-6 trans
IP: Logged |
bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 1724
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
|
posted 12-13-2004 06:19 PM
I've used them in the front of 4WD but not in the rear. There are a lot of moving parts in there to wear out.  ------------------
1966 Mustang Coupe: Custom glass hood and BIG scoop sits atop a 289 stroked to 331 c.i., Steel crank, rods and girdle, TFS alum. heads, Stealth 8020 intake, Xtreme 268 Solid Roller, Holley 750 HP, long tubes, 4speed, 9" 3.50 posi.
11.50 @ 116 mph (7.33 @ 93 mph)daily driver!
DanH
IP: Logged |
matt d
Journeyman Posts: 53
From: Coventry, CT USA
Registered: Mar 2003
|
posted 12-13-2004 09:33 PM
There may be a lot of parts but there are not any parts that are "expected" to wear out in a short period of time, like the clutches in a limited slip.I do only have about 5000 miles on mine so far so I cannot make any long term reliabilty claims from experience. It should last a while though if you don't have slicks. As far as stomping on it in high speed corner, it seems perfectly smooth. Stomping on it on a corner, or a straight line, from a stop light will just produce a lot of tire spin (in both tires), but smooth as far as the diff goes. This diff is nothing like a locker except that it is made by the same company.
IP: Logged | |
Mustangsandmore Forums
