You may recall that I have been running an ET race-only ��69FB with a 306��, 4spd, 31-spline Mosers, 4.56 gears in a ��N�� case, Cal-Tracs w/Ranchos, to 9�� slicks. Sometime ago I started assembling parts to buildup a 460+�� powerplant (without any power-adders & a Max of 7400 RPM) for the car. Because I want to keep it a 4-speed car, , I realize I��ll probably need to upgrade my Toploader to a Jerico DR4 trans as well as an appropriate McLeod ��soft-loc�� clutch assembly or equivalent in order to effectively transfer the HP to the rear.

Well, I��ve got some engine parts gathered. Here is a list of the current parts I have so far:

#D1VE- 2-bolt block bored 0.030 over; decked to 10.315��; Hard Block added
Eagle cast-steel 4.14�� stroker crank
Eagle ESP H-beam 6.8�� rods, 8740 ARP cap screws
JE's SRP forged flat-top pistons
ATI Super Dampener
The above has been internally balanced and should produce a displacement of 501��.

Additional parts I have include:
Blue Thunder Main Cap Girdle, �� billet steel with ARP studs
Clevite 77 main and rod bearings
Melling High-Volume Oil Pump & pickup;
Edelbrock Victor 460 (#2965) intake.

Incidentals:
I think I will be able to use my current Mallory IVc ignition control box, electric water pump drive & fans, and Griffin aluminum radiator. I haven��t yet determined what distributor to use. I'm hoping that a BOSS'9 scoop will cover it . I��ll probably wind up using a pair of Crites swap headers & their mounts; and I'll likely cut my shock towers back �� just to make life easier.....

WHEW,,,, OK �� So now I��m looking for some advice on what additional parts I should plan on to complete the package. The parts I��m considering or leaning toward buying are:

Camshaft: CompCam grind# FF 296 BR-8 Solid Roller Cam. 260/268 duration @ 050, valve lift .726"/.726", LS of 108.

Cyl heads: Although pricey, I think I��d be further ahead to step over buying some reworked iron heads and move directly up to the 75cc aluminum Edelbrock RPM heads (2.19�� int & 1.73�� exh valves, with the necessary springs & hardware to run the above cam), they should give me 11.7 C/R. (Yeah, I��d luv to go further up the ladder to the new Jon Haase SCJ Al heads (#6049), but I think they��re JUST A BIT outta my reach!) .

Carb: Probably a Holley 1050-cfm Dominator

Question #1) Does anyone see any ��flaws�� with my current parts combination?

Question #2) What are your opinions on my proposed choice of cam, heads & carb?

Does anyone have any other thoughts?

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Block - our is filled, with studs, we don't run a girdle no problems as of yet.

Crank is good (if bearing clr are right - that's another story!)

Rods - after first year the caps moved - Eagle said we should be using the L19 bolt upgrade - they should sell the rods with those bolts! I would reccomend you do that - means resize the rods, but a better bolt!

We use an old Duraspark distributer with a home made crank trigger - no problems - we use a start retard box and MSD 7AL.

I think you could save money on cam - we have a mild flat solid (can't remmber which one for sure Crane or Comp)think it is a Crane 351511 - .603"/.624" lift 266/276 duration @.050". Is suffiecient. We use SpeedPro/TRW rockers - never a problem.

Definitely go with Aluminum! The money we have in those heavy ......
Guy in a late model with Performer RPM and Hyd roller was running 10.80 on little tires C6 - no converter! Nothing wrong with those heads for the price.

Headers - used to have 1 7/8" Crites (Tubular Automotive) with the repro BOSS 429 mounts, now have motor plates with custom built 2". (Ya wanna buy the old stuff?)

If you use a stock oil pan - weld a baffle in to keep the oil from uncovering the pump!

We also feed the back of the motor from the front with an external line and restrict cam oiling.

This is a big torquey motor - you don't need a lot of rpm. Ours has run 10.24 with a best 60 of 1.39 - use a Glide with Hughes 5000 stall, 4.30 gear (likely going to 4.56 next year).

Big Blocks are fun

Get the L19 bolt upgrade on the rods.

Be sure to double pin the distributor.

You might consider double pinning the cam, with an extra dowel to the timing gear.
I'd go roller on the cam if it's a race only vehicle.
I'd prefer more Cam lift and run it on alky.
Rupert makes an excellent alky dominator.
Especially since it's a stick car.

Use Bigger tube headers at least 2 inch. preferably 2 1/8th

Alex:
-- Because this is a race-only rig and will be @ 11.7 compression ratio, I was anticipating to run 50/50 or 70/30 mixes of 110 race fuel & 93 premium gasoline. If not that cam profile, what cam would you recommend?

-- I know some folks have run a toploader behind a warmed-over BB, but I'd rather sell the Toploader "intact" and bite the bullet and get a Jerico in there - then I wouldn't always wonder if, "Will my gear-changer come apart on this pass or not?"

-- I will plan on using quality roller rockers. What do you think of the 1.7 ratio, 7/16" stud, COMP CAMS Pro-Magnum units for this?

Fred:
Your combo DOES sound very close!
-- I heard about upgrading the rod cap screws to L-19 units, but wasn't sure if it just talk or not..... I will have the machine shop make the upgrade.

-- A "homemade crank trigger", and the benefit(s) to using one are....?

-- What C/R do you figure you have, I thought the use of a Start Retard Box was necessary only with 13+ to 1 C/Rs?

-- Hmmmm,,,,, the Crites headers are only 1 7/8" primaries???? I was figuring on 2" or 2 1/8" primaries. I may have to hold off and also get some custom headers built. However, I will keep the availability of your pieces in mind.

-- I was looking at non-stock oil pans, but I'm concerned about interference with the headers. I may have to settle for a stock-style oil pan and, if so, I'll do as you recommend - have a baffle welded in.

-- If you don't mind, I'd like to e-mail you to discuss how & what you did for your cam oiling mods and exterior line......

CRacing:
-- My thoughts on a shaft-mounted valve train is that it would be toooo pricey and primarily get to spinning' the mill 7500+ rpms on a regular basis.... then I'll save my $$$ and step up to a shaft system.

-- I will plan on using a stud girdle with the 7/16" studs.

-- What camshaft would you recommend?

-- At this point, I'm not planning on tubbing the car for bigger rubber....but I'm not dead-set against it being a possibility in the future.

SteveW:
-- As long as my legs and arms still can "get 'er dun", I hope I never 'come to my senses' and take out my 3rd pedal! It's always way fun to, "Beat the other guy with a Stick"! LOL

JSRacing:
(By the way, I think your blue '69 BB racer is WAY !! In fact, I have color pics of it printed & on the wall at my workplace; with the hopes that, "I'll get that far someday too!" )

-- I do have a BT main cap girdle already, so that's covered. I will look into getting a stud girdle on the heads. Any head girdle better than others?

-- I never heard about double pinning the distributor,,,,are you talking about the double pinning the drive gear? As in cross-drilling it and installing another spring roll pin?

-- I have heard about double-doweling the cam to the timing gear; I was planning on having that done.

-- For some unknown reason, I've shy'd away from the idea of converting the fuel system over to alky....but, other than the doubling of volume used, corrosiveness, motor oil dilution and nasty odor, my understanding of using alky is that it delivers more consistent power and runs cooler than race fuel/gasoline. What is your opinion on it's benefit?

Other thoughts:
I'm hoping this 501" will get me performance in the neighborhood of Fred's combo - ETs down into the mid 10s and 60'ers in the 1.40s range.

-- I'll also likely need to upgrade my fuel system to a Mallory 140 fuel pump, regulator and 1/2" delivery line.

-- I know I'll need to install a cage and a harness to get through Tech.

-- I'll likely pull out my OE seats and install a lighter Al or fiberglas race seat.

-- I'll need to obtain an SFI-approved driving jacket.

-- I should probably have a brace welded onto the backside of my 9" housing.

-- I may budget in the eventual removal the 5-leaf rear springs and step up to the calvert mono 1/2 leaf system....

THANKS AGAIN FOR EVERYONE'S IMPUT!
If the above fellas or anyone else can think of anything else to add, please post it...

One other item to add: Durabond cam bearings. These seem to hold up much better in a 385 series than Clevite or FM.

David Cole

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Your combo is fairly similar to mine.

Mine is:
521 ci
Scat 4.300" crank
Eagle 6.700" rods
SRP flat tops (same as yours)
ATI super damper
D0VE-A block with Milodon splayed cams
Cam: Comp custom grind 272/284 @.050" duration, 108 LSA (104 IC) approx .720" net lift
Victor dominator intake with 1250 dom
CJ iron heads (home ported 375/230 cfm)

Mine also has a big spline toploader (wide ratio) with a Mcleod softlock clutch set-up.

My car is about 4000# with driver (street and strip) and I ran it for the first time in the fall with the new engine. It ran 10.51 @ 132.5 with only a 1.55 sixty foot on 10" x 28" tires.

The Edlebrock heads should do fine. I'd probably opt for the Edlebrock victor cj size heads if I were going that route, but it may not be that big a difference.

As far as the oil pan, if you can find an old style Milodon deep front sump pan that should clear your headers. I see them on ebay or at swap meets from time to time. That's the pan I used on mine. The newer milodon pan is wider and not as deep and usually does cause header clearance problems.

As far as the cam, it looks like a pretty good choice depending on what you want it to do. It looks to me like with that cam you will shift at 6500 RPM. If that's where you want the RPM then that cam is about right. If you want a shift point more in the 6800-7000 RPM range then you may want to consider a little bit bigger cam. Maybe 268/278 or 275/285. Something in that range. Actually the Comp Cams 268/276 .727" in my oppinion would be about perfect with those heads and that cubic inch. But that's not to say the cam you have chosen is a bad choice.

Your car should definately reach your goals with the equipment you're talking about. I remember seeing a 68 mustang with a 501, with edelbrock heads, victor 1050, 280/290 cam, etc and it ran low 10's right off the bat and then went 9.90's after he tuned it some.

My car is probably heavier than yours but it ran mid 10's without ANY tuning whatsoever. I haven't even tried adjusting the timing or jets yet. Plus my learning curve in driving this car with this engine was pretty steep. I haven't really learned to drive it that well yet.

Dave_C,
I appreciate the "heads up" (please pardon the pun) on the TFS 'Street" heads. I'll have to do some info searchs on them to see what they're all about. The shop has already installed new Clevite cam bearings....but the block is still on the stand. At this point, would you get them changed out if you were me?

Alex,
Thanks for the additional comments & pointers! I'm not familar with a "Sig Erson A frame" stud-type roller rocker. I'll have to look into them.....

CRacing,
I've done some lusting over the tube chassis & fiberglass bodied, "..just add your powertrain" cars. Yep, their lighter, safer, faster, easier to work on, etc. But - then I looked at all the extra rules I'd need to comply with because I'd now have a non-stock floorboard & firewall car, it would get even more expensive for me. Nevertheless, it does bother me a bit to think about the cutting & welding I've got planned for this currently uncut '69 Mach1 body. (I still have the info on that '70FB Vennom.com car that "kit car" Jerry Smith pointed out a while back.....) Thanks for the tip on the Canton CJ stamped steel pan outfitted with a baffle. I'll have to check it out. Your reasoning for shaft-mounted rockers is a good point. I'll have to do as you suggest and price out the differences. Yeah, I'm pretty well convinced I'll step up and go roller cam....

Mike_R,
OH YEAH, sounds like you've got your car running VERY well indeed! I suspect that after I add the cage, I'll be about 3600-3700 lbs.

From what I've read, the only difference between the Edel CJs and the Edel non-CJ heads is that the CJs are cast with bigger ports than the non-CJs. Yet there's enough meat in the head that the non-CJ can be ported out to the CJ port sizes....so buy it ready or port it out to be ready. I'll likely go with the CJ head casting #61659.

Are you at all worried about breaking your toploader? Did you have David Kee upgrade it? Are you happy with your clutch setup? At what RPM do you launch & shift?

I'd be happy with a 10.51 @ 132.5 with a 1.55 sixty foot on 10" x 28" tires for the first time out! .

Thanks for the tip on the older style Milodon oil pan. I'll also be looking for the Canton pan that CRacing mentioned above. I'll also take a look at your recommended Comp Cams 268/276 .727" cam.

Also as a side note: I'm not normally a fan a magazine engine builds. They norally are either too simplistic or just a showcase for the part of the week that was donated by an ad-buying company. However, yesterday I got my Jan 05 Mustangs & Fords mag. It has a very good build article on a 557. You might want to take a look. It's almost a carbon copy of my 557. Same crank, rods, pistons, heads, etc. Only diff was the induction. They used a tunnel ram and 2 750 carbs. Mine is a single plane Victor 460 with a Flying Toilet alky injection system. (nastyhol) as my racing buddy calls it. On the dyno the magazine engine made 847 hp at 6200 and 771 torque @ 5000. It also hit a volumetrci effeciency peak of 112.3 % at the torque peak. Based on ET/MPH/weight at the track mine makes just about 900hp with the alky and just a touch more cam. Theirs: .745/.754 262/266 @ .050 106 centerline. Mine: .770/.770 275/280@ .080 112 centerline.

You might take a look at the build.

David Cole

http://www.torinocobra.com/guest_htm/mike_roberts.htm

I'll bet your mach would be really cool too. I love the muscle car look with alot of hp.

I was REALLY worried about the toploader holding up considering the hp level this engine has to be putting out. I'm not quite as worried now that I've driven on the street quite a bit and made some hard runs down the 1/4 mile. But, yes it is a concern.

I rebuilt the toploader myself with a wide ratio conversion. It doesn't really have any special parts though. Just the big spline factory stuff. I'd love to have a Jerico jus haven't wanted to put out the bucks. My car's not going to be a full time drag car so maybe I can get away with the topoader.

My clutch set-up is actually a mixture of parts. I didn't the full "soft-lock" set-up with the aluminum flywheel and all. I started with a billet flywheel. Then I got the Mcleod adjustable pressure plate that goes from 1100-2800 lbs. The disc is a Mcleod rev-lock (I believe that's the name). It is actually the solid sintered iron but it does have springs. It is the medium coefficient of friction. This set-up ended up costing less money than the complete soft-lock set-up, but it's pretty much the same thing.

I ended up adjusting it to about 1500# and that seems to be pretty good all around with this clutch disc since it is medium and not low. It drives excellent on the street. It's actually about the best driving street clutch I've had in the car. At the strip it seemed to do really well, but I haven't really tried tuning it much yet.

I launched at about 4500 RPM about 3/4 throttle and then floored it as soon I got going. I really only got two runs like that. I think it would do alot better with a two step rev limiter.

I shifted at around 6800 RPM. I'll tell you though, this engine revs REALLY quick with the 4 speed. I was amazed the first couple of runs because I was hitting the rev limiter in every gear. It takes alot more practice and skill to drive than the 460 did. Everything happens amazingly quick.

"homemade crank trigger" - I guess cause we could, triggering off the crank is inherently more accurate, less influence from timing chain / valvetrain etc to create vibration. And a lot cheaper than a Billet MSD!

Compression ratio is 12 to 1. Start Retard is because the timing is locked. We use straight VP C12 for Fuel.

Headers - Bought the headers and mounts in 1985, at this time the header available was 1 7/8" - 2 tubes criss cossed under the pan. I also think that they were intended for a 4 speed as we had to spread the tubes out to clear the C6 bell. Now they have a 2" standard 4 into 1 design that allows retention of Power Steering. A buddy made the set on the car now after putting motor plates in - more room without the mounts.

Email away - going to my brothers this PM - will take a pic of line if it is still on the motor. Aftermarket pan would be good!

I shift at 6200rpm - with this much torque - and where it is - we don't buzz the motor that high. Budget is a primary consideration for us - the wife thinks there is more to life than racing (I keep her around any way)so the thing has to stay together. Besides if we make much more power then traction becomes a bigger issue as we run 12 X 29" tires with the leaf springs that came on the car!

JSRacing,
I haven't yet, but I'll look on the mentioned BBF Forum site for the modification info on enlarging the distributor pin. If I can't locate it there, I'll be back acallin' on ya!

Mike_R,
Sounds like you're getting REAL "comfortable" with your BBF Torino to be shifting that baby @ 6800rpms!! I agree, I prefer having a hot rod stock muscle car, but their increasing collector value continues to loom over my head when I think about cutting the shock towers and such.

F551,
Sounds like I should look into what it'll take for me to do a crank trigger, lock out the timing and maybe wire in a Spark Retard Box of some sort. You're running 12-1 CR and burning straight VP C12, hmmmm. Just as Alex suggested, I should probably plan on using straight race fuel as well. You mentioned, "...Now they have a 2" standard 4 into 1 design..." , are you referring to Crites?
I hear ya regarding the speech, 'There's Life beyond Racing...' bit.... I get that from my girlfriend as well. Now if you're shifting @ 6200 through a Powerglitch; Mike_R is running a Toploader and leaves at 4500, feathers it out and then shifts @ 6800.... Hmmmmmmmm - I think I'm going to like this BIG mill!!

OK Gentlemen:
I have read that quite a few folks believe in doing some sort of oiling system mods to their blocks and others do nothing. The consensus from what I've read is that the 429/460 oiling system can pump most of the oil into the top of the engine which then can starve the lower end. So I should do whatever I can do to limit the oil from going top-side. So far all I've done is deburr the lifter valley for improved oil return & chamfered the block ports at the oil pump and oil filter attachments. The BT main cap girdle doesn't have a provision for the installation of a windage tray, but I was thinking that the girdle itself may act the same as a windage tray & break up the flingin' sheet of oil from the spinning crank? Any thoughts?

Just as Fred ("F551") mentioned about his external oil pressure relief line, does anyone else have an opinion on running an external oil line from back-to-front?

What about:
-- installing restrictors in the oil holes feeding the cam bearings, main bearings?

-- installing a lifter retainer on the (left? right?) side - I think this is only recommended for non-roller lifters, correct?

-- the need to bush the lifter bores?

-- the use of restrictor pushrods?

What other oiling system mods would you fellas recommend?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ryan Wilke:
Dave_C,
As you point out, Dave, your buildup is making ~50HP more though. Where do you think most of the difference in power is - the difference in the cam, the induction system, and/or the use of alcohol fuel?

What about:
-- installing restrictors in the oil holes feeding the cam bearings, main bearings?

-- the need to bush the lifter bores?

Thanks again!!
Ryan

---

I think my extra 50hp is from a combination of the slightly larger cam, the alky fuel and perhaps the head port work. They mentioned the heads were ported, but didn't list any flow #'s. Mine may or may not be better. The tunnel ram prob helped them on a large engine. I use a ported Victor 460 inatke. It hurts me I think. It was orignally designed for a 460, not a 557. I think it's the bottle neck. Mien would prob pick up power with a tunnel ram and another throttle body.

Mine has restrictors, but I don't think they are absolutely needed.

Mine also has bushed lifter bores on the passenger side only. I do think this is needed when running a solid roller. The main oil galley passes down that side. The holes supplying oil to the lifters are large enough to stick your finger in. The bushings reduce the holes down to .060-.080 and force most of the oil to the crank. It's also a safety factor. If you loose a lifter and it comes out of the bore you instantly lose all oil pressure without the bushings and the crank is toast. The bushings slow the oil loss down so you won't ruin the crank if you shut it off soon.

David Cole

But then the tunnel ram probably is 20-30 hp better than the victor but then that's probably negated by the Alchohol you're running.