The 351M/400 uses the same trans and motor mounts as a 429/460 so it is a direct bolt in, which to me is their only real down fall. If they used the SB bolt paterns I think it could have been a good alternitive to the 351C, though it may not fit because it is taller and wider. Same 2V heads but more CID to take advantage them. But seeing as wherever a 351M/400 fits a 429/460 will fit why bother with the 400. I doubt they were much lighter and head design was simular (canted valves).

I personally built a 400 years ago. Problem was finding a intake that would flow. I used a Holley Street Dominator, which I think is no longer available. It was a single plane but had really small runners. It worked really good and got my heavy FS 2wd pick up into the high 13's. If I had it to do over though I wouldn't bother with the 400 and would go directly to a 460.

quote:

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Originally posted by Bloose:

If they used the SB bolt paterns I think it could have been a good alternitive to the 351C.... Same 2V heads but more CID to take advantage them.

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There were some 400's cast with the SB bellhousing bolt pattern. Most were found in LTD's and bigger cars of that nature.

After '74, the heads were of the same basic design, but the exhuast ports actually got worse.

The 351M was built after Ford killed off the 351C. And from what I have heard, the only reason Ford built the 351M was due to the Windsor plant being unable to keep up with customer demand for a motor of that size. So by slightly modifying a windsor crank, they made a 351 inch motor out of the 400 block. And from everything I have seen and heard, the 351M was a dog.

quote:

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Originally posted by kid vishus:

... And from everything I have seen and heard, the 351M was a dog.

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quote:

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Originally posted by kid vishus:

There were some 400's cast with the SB bellhousing bolt pattern. Most were found in LTD's and bigger cars of that nature.

After '74, the heads were of the same basic design, but the exhuast ports actually got worse.

The 351M was built after Ford killed off the 351C. And from what I have heard, the only reason Ford built the 351M was due to the Windsor plant being unable to keep up with customer demand for a motor of that size. So by slightly modifying a windsor crank, they made a 351 inch motor out of the 400 block. And from everything I have seen and heard, the 351M was a dog.

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Never heard of a 351M/400 with a SB bolt pattern but anything is possible I guess. The exhaust ports were crap later on because of the emmisions bump for the air injection. This and the totaly crappy intake, exhaust manifolds, single exhaust etc made these things real dogs for sure. But, with old 2V heads without the exhaust bumps (or Aussi heads or maybe even 4V heads), a good intaked (hard to find nowadays but a 351C intake can be made to fit with spacers), a set of headers w/a good exhaust and these motors can make great power. But like I said earlier, at that point why not just do a 460?

B-loose

quote:

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Originally posted by Bloose:
Never heard of a 351M/400 with a SB bolt pattern but anything is possible I guess.

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I've seen a couple at swap meets. They actually have both patterns cast in the but only the small bell holes drilled/tapped. Both blocks came from Jack Roush so I don't know how many actually made it to production, but they definitely do exist.

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1982 Ford F100 2wd Shortbox. Powered by a 357 Cleveland w/ closed chamber 4v's. Full Roller c-6 trans and 4.86 geared Detroit Locker equipped 9" rear.

I have one. It has the outline of the big block bellhousing pattern
but the holes are not drilled. It also has bosses for the small block
motor mounts but they are not drilled.

> But like I said earlier, at that point why not just do a 460?

There are certain cases where the 400 makes a good upgrade. One is in
Panteras where they minimize swap hassles. All the 351C parts (heads, oil
pan, intake manifold, distributor, etc.) swaps over and the ZF transaxle
bolts right up. Gets you a stroker crank and thicker wall block (a friend
has one bored 0.080" that still passed sonic test) for relatively cheap.
A 400 crank can be offset ground for 430 to 440 cubes (depending on overbore),
using 240 I6 rods. Panteras use a three piece motor mount set up with one
aluminum casting bolted to the block with two vertical bolts, another bolted
to the frame, and a rubber donut bolted in between at a 45 degree angle.
Since the 400's motor mounts bosses are already at 45 degrees (351C's are
vertical), the upper mount can be quite simple. A triangular flat plate with
3 bolts holes, a circular cut out for the donut and through bolt, and maybe a
cut out for wrench clearance would do the trick.

I was going to use my FMX block for the Pantera but then lucked into the
Fontana alumnium block.

quote:

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Originally posted by Daniel Jones:
> Gets you a stroker crank and thicker wall block (a friend
has one bored 0.080" that still passed sonic test) for relatively cheap.
A
Dan Jones

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A friend has a 351M in a 69 mustang, I dont know how it got there.

The local dirt track engine builder said they go 0.060" reliably but
I also know of one block that would not (was core shifted badly).
The blocks weigh in at 196+ lbs, which is a good 20 lbs more than
a 351C or 351W. They were cast at two different locations (the Cleveland
Foundry and the Michigan Casting Center) but I don't know if one is any
better than another. 400 crank offset ground to 4.187, 6.79" 240/Six rods,
.060-over gives 434 cubes.

quote:

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Originally posted by Daniel Jones:
> Never heard of a 351M/400 with a SB bolt pattern but anything is possible I
> guess.

I have one. It has the outline of the big block bellhousing pattern
but the holes are not drilled. It also has bosses for the small block
motor mounts but they are not drilled.

Never knew this. Cool. I always thought the 400 had potential that was never tapped into by Ford. I would guess the 400FMX block is fairly rare, is that correct? How much could you stroke a 351C to?

> But like I said earlier, at that point why not just do a 460?

There are certain cases where the 400 makes a good upgrade. One is in
Panteras where they minimize swap hassles. All the 351C parts (heads, oil
pan, intake manifold, distributor, etc.) swaps over and the ZF transaxle
bolts right up. Gets you a stroker crank and thicker wall block (a friend
has one bored 0.080" that still passed sonic test) for relatively cheap.
A 400 crank can be offset ground for 430 to 440 cubes (depending on overbore),
using 240 I6 rods. Panteras use a three piece motor mount set up with one
aluminum casting bolted to the block with two vertical bolts, another bolted
to the frame, and a rubber donut bolted in between at a 45 degree angle.
Since the 400's motor mounts bosses are already at 45 degrees (351C's are
vertical), the upper mount can be quite simple. A triangular flat plate with
3 bolts holes, a circular cut out for the donut and through bolt, and maybe a
cut out for wrench clearance would do the trick.

I was going to use my FMX block for the Pantera but then lucked into the
Fontana alumnium block.

That's cool too but I think in most cases if a 460 will fit it's a better place to start, but of course that is just my opinion. You know what that's worth

Dan Jones

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Think of it as a thick wall, tall deck, Cleveland with long rods and
plenty of potential.

> I would guess the 400FMX block is fairly rare, is that correct?

Yes. They are out there but none of junkyards will know what you are
talking about.

> How much could you stroke a 351C to?

A 4" stroke is about the safe limit. That'll give you 408 cubes if
the block is 0.030" over. I've seen guys go as much as 430 cubes in
a 351C block but that's really pushing it. There's plenty of room
in the block so the limiting factor is usally the upper ring placement
and the rod length. The upper ring placement is determined by the
depth of the canted valve notch in the block (the ring must be below
this at TDC (plus stretch) and the rod length is determined by where
the piston pin is at BDC. A 4" stroke and 6" rod works well.

> That's cool too but I think in most cases if a 460 will fit it's a
> better place to start

460's will fit in a Pantera but there's the weight thing for of those
of us who like to go around corners. With the aluminum Fontana block,
C302B heads, water pump and flywheel, plus mini-starter the new engine
should be just a tad over 400 lbs and 407 cubes.

Thanks for the info. Good stuff.

I guess I keep thinking Drag Race stuff but keep forgeting some people like cars that handle too. How much of a weight difference is there with between a 460 and a 400?

I have always been in love with the Pantera but I doubt I'll ever have enough play money to buy one. But it's definitley up there in my top 10 favorite cars.

If you get the back end out, it's nice to not have the extra weight swinging
out there like a pendulum.

> The extra length of a 460 sure would be, might have toget a midget to drive!

They push the 460 back a bit so it doesn't intrude any farther into the
cabin. That puts the 1/2 shafts at more of an angle but I guess that's
not a problem.

> I've never run across the SB pattern bellhousing 400. Are they worth buying?

Yes. The Pantera guys will snap them up.

> I guess I keep thinking Drag Race stuff but keep forgeting some people like
> cars that handle too. How much of a weight difference is there with between
> a 460 and a 400?

The old Ford Motorsport catalogs said the 460 was 720 lbs and the 400 was
575 lbs. If you put aluminum heads, intake, and water pump on the 460, it
won't be that much heavier than an iron 400. In my case,

> I have always been in love with the Pantera but I doubt I'll ever have enough
> play money to buy one.

I'm glad I bought mine. It was really no more expensive than a Boss 302 or
a CJ Mustang and certainly less expensive than a Shelby GT-350.