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Author
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Topic: On line Desk Top Dyno
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 26811
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 11-02-2004 05:58 PM
   
Anyone know of a free DTD (or similar) available on line?
I have some things I would like to explore when I get a couple of minutes to spare between midnight and 12:12 AM.
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Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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Mooney
Gearhead Posts: 1914
From: Marietta, Ga
Registered: Oct 2003
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posted 11-02-2004 06:13 PM
You have mail
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wrksnfx
Gearhead Posts: 355
From: Warren,MI,Macomb
Registered: Sep 2004
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posted 11-02-2004 06:20 PM
Hey can I get one too PLEASE. 
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grego37
Gearhead Posts: 363
From: los angeles,CA,USA
Registered: May 2004
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posted 11-02-2004 06:49 PM
try loco4fomoco.com
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 26811
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 11-02-2004 08:27 PM
quote:
Originally posted by grego37:
try loco4fomoco.com
This one works bitchin' ! Thanks much.  ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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wrksnfx
Gearhead Posts: 355
From: Warren,MI,Macomb
Registered: Sep 2004
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posted 11-03-2004 06:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by grego37:
try loco4fomoco.com
DUDE YOU F'IN ROCK THANKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have been trying to get my hands on this program for years thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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indyphil
Gearhead Posts: 2690
From: Senoia, G.A. USA
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 11-04-2004 09:31 AM
Hey thanks great program with great cam and head files.
One questionThe program shows some pretty massive differences on engines between roller cams and regular cams (when using aftermarket aluminum heads)
Is there a good explanation for this?
We all heard about the 400hp 302 with the stock roller cam (Car craft did that) Here is an example
351W
Edelbrock heads
Edelbrock RPM cam Desktop dyno says about 375hp.
Switch to a comp cams XE273HR type cam and Voila! 400+hp an no loss in torque... Anyone else see this? Anyway it accuratley predicted the 200hp for my basically stock 289
and shows 420hp for my coming 331 buildup 331, AFR185 heads, XE273HR cam, dual plane manifold (RPM airgap) and headers. 600CFM carb. Im surprised that a 331 can blow away a 351 with similar heads just because it has a roller cam. the torque production is probably most impressive the 331 simulation is making over 400ft lbs down to 2000RPM while the 351 barely makes it to 400ftlbs even at PEAK TORQUE. So does a roller cam really make that much difference? ------------------
'68 coupe, '66 289 C code
engine, edel 600cfm carb, performer intake, dual exhaust http://www.geocities.com/ottouk_77/68mustang.htm
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JCQuinn@work
Gearhead Posts: 898
From: Lakewood, CO, USA
Registered: Jun 2001
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posted 11-04-2004 10:30 AM
A roller cam has much steeper lift rates than a flat tappet cam. That means for a given duration you have greater average valve opening so the duration in terms of airflow is more efficient. Its not exactly a speed secret, racers have known it for years and NASCAR outlawed roller cams because of this fact. Of course the NASCAR racers found ways to make flat tappets nearly as efficient but at considerable cost.John
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indyphil
Gearhead Posts: 2690
From: Senoia, G.A. USA
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 11-04-2004 10:59 AM
I kinda knew about the agressive profiles but didnt realize it was worth that much power. with that much grunt at stake why would anyone use anything else? More torque, more power - wheres the catch?------------------
'68 coupe, '66 289 C code
engine, edel 600cfm carb, performer intake, dual exhaust http://www.geocities.com/ottouk_77/68mustang.htm
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Jerry Piner
Gearhead Posts: 223
From: staunton, va
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 11-04-2004 11:22 AM
They won't let us download anything here at work. So i was wondering if anyone could run my combination and tell me the HP & TQ numbers
351W 10:1
Stock 70 Windsor heads with exhaust bumps ground out
282S 236@50 528
RPM intake 750 DP
1 5/8 headers
If you could run it with the RPM and then with Victor Jr intake, thanks
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73torinoqcode
Gearhead Posts: 417
From: Buffalo,NY,USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted 11-04-2004 01:46 PM
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capri man
Gearhead Posts: 7221
From: doerun, ga.
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 11-04-2004 02:44 PM
i must have done something wrong!! i came up with 450+ hp on my 302!!------------------
mike r
racing is real
everything else is just a game.
81 capri-302-7.33 @92mph 1/8
1.54 60 ft. http://community.prestage.com/Member+Pages/789.aspx
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JCQuinn@work
Gearhead Posts: 898
From: Lakewood, CO, USA
Registered: Jun 2001
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posted 11-04-2004 03:03 PM
quote:
Originally posted by indyphil:
I kinda knew about the agressive profiles but didnt realize it was worth that much power. with that much grunt at stake why would anyone use anything else? More torque, more power - wheres the catch?
The catch is more moving parts and more cost. More moving parts means installation should be done with care so everything is aligned right and periodic maintanence checks should be performed. But the hydraulic rollers must be pretty reliable or the factory would have never used them. I have used roller cams with no problems that weren't caught before damage was done but these were race cars that had the engines apart frequently for inspection and maintenance. I have never used rollers in a street car but probably will in the future. John One word about these desktop simulations, their accuracy depends heavily on accurate airflow information. That means the flow through the carb/throttle body, manifold and head. Most of them let you plug in your head flow and carb size but do not allow for manifolds restrictions very accuratly. I did a lot of manifold testing on a flow bench years ago and was amazed at the flow restriction a lot of manifolds caused. The tests included about every manifold made for a 302 at that time including tunnel rams. There is some better stuff now but I have not tested due to having sold the flowbench.
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TomP
Gearhead Posts: 6000
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99
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posted 11-04-2004 11:03 PM
Should we tell him his ladder bars are upside down?
http://www.loco4fomoco.com/wheelstires.html
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67mustangdsa
Journeyman Posts: 45
From: Xenia Ohio
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted 11-05-2004 12:24 PM
LOL....That's funny right there....I don't care who you are! Actually, I think his bars are ok but the crossmember is unside down and the track bar is going to the wrong to the top instead of the bottom. Hopefully, he did not weld it in like that.[This message has been edited by 67mustangdsa (edited 11-05-2004).]
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johnny 4-speed
Gearhead Posts: 172
From: Larkspur, Ca. USA
Registered: Oct 2004
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posted 11-05-2004 01:25 PM
You know, another benefit of roller cam/lifter set-ups is more accurate valve timing. It seems that stock lifter bore centerlines are not very accurate. By this, I mean that if one lifter bore is drilled a couple of degrees before or after the others, that particular valve's timing will not be consistant with the others. Apparently, roller lifters can make up for some of the inaccuracies left by the factory. I don't know exactly how, though. JD
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indyphil
Gearhead Posts: 2690
From: Senoia, G.A. USA
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 11-05-2004 02:43 PM
To me at least another major benefit is not worrying about an extended break in (or wiping the lobes because I didnt do it right)
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1888
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 11-05-2004 04:28 PM
Coming from a computer programmer, remember that the program will only be as good as the information input. Things such as runner lengths, port sizes, header primary size, valve orientation, ect are all not included in this simulation. This makes it alot easier to use, but also is flawed in that it does not take into account quite a few variables, leaving the output far from sound.
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bud4660
Gearhead Posts: 528
From: Mesquite, Tx. M&M #2925
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted 11-05-2004 05:13 PM
quote:
Originally posted by TomP:
Should we tell him his ladder bars are upside down?
http://www.loco4fomoco.com/wheelstires.html
Tom stop it. Thats the way mine look..... ------------------
1967 GT Fastback S code, C6, 4:56, tubbed, 10 point cage.
Pictures in link.
http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forums/photopost/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/12578 1998 GT Convert.(sold 11/29/03)
Automatic, 3:73 FRPP Gears, Mac Girdle, Moser Axles
Griggs Sub's, Welded/Plated Torque Boxes, Strut Tower Brace, Strange 10way Struts, D&D K-member, MM HD lower control arms, Rear air bags
ProStars 15x10 w/295/50/15, 15x4 w/P195/75/15 and ARP Studs, 9/16" spacers
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TomP
Gearhead Posts: 6000
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99
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posted 11-05-2004 06:46 PM
Whole friggin' works is upside down... the shorter end of the bar is supposed to be up top so the brackets don't angle way forward like that. The crossmember and diagonal link go below the driveshaft. Perhaps he held the intructions upside down? On these roller lifters, just so y'all know... WHEELS DOWNWARD!
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bluestreek
Gearhead Posts: 1724
From: Athens,GA
Registered: Jul 2001
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posted 11-05-2004 08:03 PM
According to Desktop Dyno, you always make more HP if your cam is retarded. Why is that? ------------------
1966 Mustang Coupe: Custom glass hood and BIG scoop sits atop a 289 stroked to 331 c.i., Steel crank, rods and girdle, TFS alum. heads, Stealth 8020 intake, Xtreme 268 Solid Roller, Holley 750 HP, long tubes, 4speed, 9" 3.50 posi.
11.86 @ 116 mph (7.62 @ 93 mph)daily driver!
DanH [This message has been edited by bluestreek (edited 11-05-2004).]
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indyphil
Gearhead Posts: 2690
From: Senoia, G.A. USA
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 11-08-2004 08:02 AM
I have used decent computer models here at work - that was my main area of expertise, and let me say now that these DTD are far from state of the art. But I would expect that they could predict the relative gains of a different cam profile. It matched my 289 almost perfectly. but Dubz you are right these are not very sophisticated models and its still a case of garbage in and garbage out. ------------------
'68 coupe, '66 289 C code
engine, edel 600cfm carb, performer intake, dual exhaust http://www.geocities.com/ottouk_77/68mustang.htm
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f100cleveland
Gearhead Posts: 361
From: St. James, MN
Registered: Sep 2004
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posted 11-08-2004 02:30 PM
Engine Analyzer has a lot more variables then Desktop Dyno has. I've used both programs and EA seems to be more accurate. You used to be able to download EA for free, but that link has been pulled. I've questioned the accuracy of these programs due to the fact that inputting some odd figures, gives REALLY high outputs. I believe it will give you a good baseline but nothing to truely go by.------------------
1982 Ford F100 2wd Shortbox. Powered by a 357 Cleveland w/ closed chamber 4v's. Full Roller c-6 trans and 4.86 geared Detroit Locker equipped 9" rear. http://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gallery/displayalbum.php?&albumid=13034
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indyphil
Gearhead Posts: 2690
From: Senoia, G.A. USA
Registered: Jul 2002
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posted 11-08-2004 03:52 PM
I had a free download of EA a while back. It was good but of course it helps to have the support files.Id love to show you guys more of my work, but of course its proprietary and its confidential. What we can do to simulate engine operation is mind boggling. Imagine modelling every component (thermally) and getting plots of flow Vs crank angle, heat rejections and much much more. Lots of pretty coloured plots and comparisons and all acurate to withing less than 1%. I spent more time modelling engines than testing, and the model was almost always dead on the money. the one thing my model had the hardest time with was emissions... Good computer models are like weather models, they take very powerful computers a long time to run and take into account minute details. there is one commercially available called GTpower. Its not the kind of thing that small time racers would use but is VERY powerful. Heres a link:
http://www.gtisoft.com/broch_gtpower.html Its amazing what computers are able to do now. ------------------
'68 coupe, '66 289 C code
engine, edel 600cfm carb, performer intake, dual exhaust http://www.geocities.com/ottouk_77/68mustang.htm
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