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Author Topic:   Toluene as additive to make race fuel?
Stewart
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Posts: 10041
From: Monterey, CA Mustangsandmore Member #437
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 09-14-2004 02:21 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Stewart   Click Here to Email Stewart     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Can adding toluene to your gas be a poor mans way to make race fuel?

Does it harm your engine?

http://www.elektro.com/~audi/audi/toluene.html

I turn to the experts here because I've never heard of this before. Have you guys? Can this harm the s/c engine in my Lightning if I were to utilize it for a night of drag racing?

Thanks for your input.

Stewart

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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead

Posts: 2289
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000

posted 09-14-2004 03:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ryan Wilke   Click Here to Email Ryan Wilke     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Stewart,

A few years ago, I "aquired" a 5-gallon can of toluene and added it to my street cars, just to use it up. However, I only added a gallon or so to a tankful. I didn't notice any performance increase nor problems. I did notice a slight change in the exhaust odor, but no problems.

I'd guess that putting it into your Lightning's fuel tank may mess with the computer sensors (due to different combustion temps, O2 sensor levels, knock conditions, etc.) to the point where it may take a few days/trips afterwards to get it out of it's memory.

If you decide to go for it, let us know what you determine............

Good Luck!

Ryan

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indyphil
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From: Senoia, G.A. USA
Registered: Jul 2002

posted 09-14-2004 04:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for indyphil   Click Here to Email indyphil     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Increasing the octane rating wont "add" power unless you are able to increase compression ratio or advance spark timing

that article seems to be about engines which have knock sensors to retard timing when bad or low octane fuel is used.

Octane is not a measure of how much energy is in the fuel, but merely a measure of how easily it self ignites under compression. High octanes resist detonation and hence allow you to advance timing, boost, or compression ratio to get more power.

Oxygented fuel - real rocket fuel - is a different story. Normally if you use regular gasoline you need to mix every 1 lb of fuel with about 14 lbs of air - thats the air fuel ratio that gasoline likes best. If you have a fuel which carries its own oxygen with it, then you dont need as much air, and hence you can use bigger jets and pump more fuel into the engine. Nitromethane is an oxygenated fuel, and this is why top fuel cars pump so much fuel into their engines and get so much power. I think the ideal air fuel ratio is about 1.4 (1.4 parts of air for every 1 part of fuel)

I dont know exactly what toluene does, buts its nasty stuff (what isnt!) but octane boosters and rocket fuel are two very different things.

------------------
'68 coupe, '66 289 C code
engine, edel 600cfm carb, performer intake, dual exhaust http://www.geocities.com/ottouk_77/68mustang.htm

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Dubz
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From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002

posted 09-14-2004 04:23 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dubz   Click Here to Email Dubz     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
is nitromethane an crude oil based product??

[This message has been edited by Dubz (edited 09-14-2004).]

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mustangs68
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Posts: 24577
From: Buckroe Beach Va MCA#39406 M&M #12 Member Mustang Club of Tidewater
Registered: May 99

posted 09-14-2004 04:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mustangs68   Click Here to Email mustangs68     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
toluene will "melt" any plastic compounds it comes into contact with.

besides it will also cause "gray matter" to fall out your ears if you breath enough of it.
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below is a Cut an pasted section from an online Chemical source..sam
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What is NITROMETHANE ??
NITROMETHANE : (Ni`tro`meth?ane)

n. 1. (Chem.) A nitro derivative of methane (CH3.NO2), obtained as a mobile liquid; - called also nitrocarbol.
n. 2. (Chem.) A colorless, oily liquid, (CH3NO2), used in making dyes and resins, in organic synthesis, as a fuel in race car engines, and as a rocket propellant.

Nitromethane?..everybody knows it's there, but few, it seems, really know much about it. Although most seem to know - at least vaguely - that's its primary purpose is to add power, we still ask "Why do you use it in drag racing?" At best, there is much misinformation regarding this somewhat exotic ingredient. Let's see what we can do to clear some of it up.

Nitromethane is just one of a family of chemicals called "nitroparaffins." Others are nitroethane and 1-nitropropane and 2-nitropropane. Nitroethane can be used successfully in small quantities. (Top Fuel drag racers, which generally run on a mixture of 90% straight nitromethane, sometimes add a little in hot, humid weather to prevent detonation.) At one time, nitroethane was only about half as expensive as nitromethane, but its cost now is so nearly the same, using it to lower cost is hardly worth the trouble. Neither of the nitropropanes will work in model engine fuel. Incidentally, nitromethane is made of propane, in case you didn't know (and I'll bet you didn't).

Yes, NITRO = POWER! But?.there are conditions and contingencies. First of all, it doesn't add power because it's such a "hot" chemical. Not at all. This may come as a surprise, but the methanol (methyl alcohol) in the fuel is by far the most flammable ingredient?.nearly twice as flammable as nitromethane. As a matter of fact, if nitro were only 4 degrees less flammable, it wouldn't even have to carry the red diamond "flammable" label!

In actuality, nitromethane must be heated above 36 degrees Celcius before it will begin to emit enough vapors that they can be ignited by some sort of spark or flame! (I demonstrated this not long ago to a friend by repeatedly putting a flaming match out in a lidful of nitro. I might add that he insisted on standing about 20 feet away during the demonstration!)

So?.how does it add power? We all know (I think) that although we think of the liquid part substance we put in fuel tanks (in our automobiles or model airplanes) as the fuel, in truth, there is another "fuel," without which the liquid part would be useless. Remember what it is? Right?.just plain old air (in reality, the oxygen in the air).

Every internal combustion engine mixes air and another fuel of some sort?.in our case in TF drag racing, methanol. The purpose of the carburetor or injector system is to meter those two ingredients in just the right proportions, and every individual engine has a requirement for a specific proportion of liquid fuel and air. Try to push in too much liquid without enough air, and the engine won't run at all. That's the purpose of the supercharger in drag racing engines?.to cram in a lot more air than a simple carburetor or fuel injection system can handle.

Now?..suppose we were to find a way to run more liquid through our engines without increasing the air supply? That would add power, wouldn't it? Well, guess what?.we can! An internal combustion engine can burn more than 2 ? times as much nitromethane to a given volume of air than it can methanol. Voila! MORE POWER! That's how it works, and it ain't all that complicated.

High performance TF or injected nitro alcohol racing engines, for example, are specifically designed and tuned?.compression ratios, intake and exhaust timings etc?.and are usually intended to run on very high nitro blends. Those engines are a serious bitch to tune and run, and are definitely not user-friendly! In fact, they are well beyond the skill levels of most average people. That's why not everone can make a TF dragster turn 1/4 mile times in under 4.5 seconds.

Another statement i hear frequently is that nitromethane is acidic and causes corrosion in engines. It isn't acidic, and the manufacturers say it doesn't happen?..it can't happen! Every professional TF crew chief i have asked this question to has said "No - Never."

Why does nitro cost so much? While I have no clue as to the cost of manufacturing, other than it takes a multi-million dollar investment in a large refinery to produce it, there is one pretty good reason: There is only one manufacturer of nitromethane in the Western Hemisphere. Figure it out for yourself.

Also (and this will come as a big surprise), the drag racing industry only consumes about 5% of all the nitromethane produced world-wide; and the hobby industry about another 2% or so. This means we have no "clout" whatever, and simply must pay the asking price. Where does the rest of it go? Industry. It's used for a variety of things - a solvent for certain plastics, insecticides, explosives (yes, it was an ingredient in the Oklahoma City bombing) and I'm told it's an ingredient in Tagamet, a well-known prescription ulcer medication (no wonder that stuff is so expensive!). Please note that while nitromethane is an ingredient in making some explosives, under normal use, it in itself, is not exploseve. (Remember?.the guy used fertilizer, too.)

Finally, remember in the beginning of this, we said that nitro adds power because we can burn more of it than we can methanol, for a given volume of air? This also means that the higher the nitro content of the fuel, the less "mileage" you will get. In a typical TF dragster engine using 90% nitro, you will use approximately 14 US Gallons (53 litres) of fuel per 1/4 mile run (in less than 5 seconds)!

Hope this helped..
sam



[This message has been edited by mustangs68 (edited 09-14-2004).]

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Stewart
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Posts: 10041
From: Monterey, CA Mustangsandmore Member #437
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 09-14-2004 08:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Stewart   Click Here to Email Stewart     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by indyphil:
Increasing the octane rating wont "add" power unless you are able to increase compression ratio or advance spark timing


Well, here's what I had in mind. After I get all my go-fast parts bolted on, I need to have it dyno tuned and a chip burned because some of the stuff I'm putting on will be changing my a/f ratio and I don't wanna detonate/explode/grenade my engine. I'm planning on a two-stage Diablo flip chip, with the first stage being for everyday street driving, and the second program (stage 2) for racing.

Since a race program needs a higher octane fuel because the timing is advanced and the a/f ratio is leaned out, I was searching for a cheap and easy way to raise the octane of my 91 pump fuel for my occasional trips to the strip.

Stewart


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Moneymaker
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Posts: 26813
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99

posted 09-16-2004 09:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Back in high school, all of the "druggies" used to sniff that stuff from a rag.
It was in the chem lab and auto shops.
(this was the early 70's long before the words controlled substance were used)

It is highly toxic and I don't recomend it at all.
A far simpler solution would be to buy some Rockett brand 100 octane unleaded racing gas which will be available in California very soon at select service stations.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
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Stewart
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From: Monterey, CA Mustangsandmore Member #437
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 09-16-2004 02:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Stewart   Click Here to Email Stewart     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'd rather be safe, and pay extra, than take a chance and be cheap.

That's why I asked here...I wanted to know if it was safe, since I already knew it was cheap.

Thanks!

Stewart

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TomP
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Posts: 6007
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99

posted 09-16-2004 04:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for TomP   Click Here to Email TomP     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Stewart if you are racing at Infinity, Infirmary or Infidelity or whatever Sears Point is called now... they sell race gas there.

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Stewart
Gearhead

Posts: 10041
From: Monterey, CA Mustangsandmore Member #437
Registered: Apr 2000

posted 09-17-2004 03:33 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Stewart   Click Here to Email Stewart     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Tom. And yeah, there's nothing local around me that I can find.

No biggie though, I don't see myself racing more than a handful of times a year, if that much. So I'll probably just go with a single stage chip.

Stewart

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rtp_rick
Journeyman

Posts: 11
From: Schaumburg, IL 60194
Registered: Dec 2002

posted 10-21-2004 05:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for rtp_rick   Click Here to Email rtp_rick     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Toluene is what is used to raise the octane in unleaded racing fuels. I don't know if that helps any, but should answer any question about whether it will hurt the engine. Although too much of anything is usually BAD.

Rick Ruth

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Moneymaker
Administrator

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From: Lyons, IL, USA
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posted 10-21-2004 05:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Moneymaker   Click Here to Email Moneymaker     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It isn't the octane level that makes the power, it's the oxygen content.

------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com

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