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Author
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Topic: after maket head for 351cleveland
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jjason
Journeyman Posts: 34
From: ontario canada
Registered: Apr 2004
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posted 09-12-2004 09:37 PM
   
is there a aftermaket head you can get for the 351cleveland {except blue thunder} thanks ....
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32valveGT350
Gearhead Posts: 124
From: Briz Vegas, QLD, Australia
Registered: May 2003
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posted 09-12-2004 09:42 PM
Yep, theres 2 Aussie built ones, CHI and AFD make them in a variety of port sizings... CHI are probably the best from all acounts...
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jjason
Journeyman Posts: 34
From: ontario canada
Registered: Apr 2004
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posted 09-12-2004 09:58 PM
i am sorry, can you give me more info on chi,afd
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32valveGT350
Gearhead Posts: 124
From: Briz Vegas, QLD, Australia
Registered: May 2003
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posted 09-13-2004 02:34 AM
http://www.cylinderheadinnovations.com.au/
http://www.airflowdynamics.com.au/
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 6098
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 09-13-2004 07:50 AM
My opinion, if you are going to the expense of an aftermarket head, you would be better off building a windsor. The great thing about a cleveland is, it doesn't need an aftermarket head to make more power than the block is capable of handling. If you put an aftermarket head on a cleveland, you still have a motor with a weak block and a poor oiling system. Iron 4v heads will easily make enough power to split cylinders on a consistant basis.Plus, none of the aussie aftermarket heads impress me.
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70coupe
Gearhead Posts: 459
From: Toronto,Ontario,Canada
Registered: Aug 2000
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posted 09-13-2004 10:04 PM
I agree 100% kid! If you're going to build big power buy an after market block first then worry about the heads. You can build 500-600HP with those open chamber 4v heads I sold you Jay. Ask Kid vishus for some pointers after you go through the threads he has posted over the last few years.
What kind of power are you looking to build?------------------
351c 4v clsd heads
60'1.517
1/8 7.06@95
1/4 11.19@118
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32valveGT350
Gearhead Posts: 124
From: Briz Vegas, QLD, Australia
Registered: May 2003
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posted 09-13-2004 10:09 PM
The Big differences the Aussie heads make are the 12kg lighter per head, and the way they flow. They can flow similarly big numbers to a 4V head, but with much higher flow velocities, wich improves the cylinder filling... the CHI 185cc heads work insanely well at lower lifts, as do the 218cc heads but with 332CFM at .700 lift... Sure, you can use port stuffers in a 4v, but you've still got a crappy exhaust port...
The big thing though, is down in Australia, the costs of prepping a set of Iron heads to run unleaded (hardened valve seats), with porting and machined for screw in studs etc, valves/springs/retainers can come up very close to what the Alloys cost assembled, and the potential in the alloys is huge...
Anyway, thats my view on the Alloys from a number of conversations with people down here....
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 6098
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 09-14-2004 07:40 AM
quote:
Originally posted by 32valveGT350:
Sure, you can use port stuffers in a 4v, but you've still got a crappy exhaust port...
Properly ported (without the raised plates), a 4v exhuast port will flow over 230 cfm. Granted those aren't record setting numbers, but it isn't crap either. The intake ports with epoxy placed in the proper places will flow in excess of 360 cfm @ .700 with a port that is less than 235 cc's. Not many aftermarket smallblock heads can boast numbers like that. I've ran high 9's with home ported open chamber 4v heads, stock rods, 11-1 compression, and an off the shelf roller cam. Nothing real fancy, but it made enough power it outran a lot of 'bigger', more exotic motors.
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n2oMike
Gearhead Posts: 2419
From: Spencer, WV
Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 09-14-2004 07:57 AM
For flat out racing in a lightweight car using a 6k rpm converter (KV), low-mid range power is not a factor. I'd say where the aftermarket heads would shine, would be on a street car that is a bit heavier, and has to make good mid range power. Port velocity isn't usually a problem when the engine has a 6k converter.  Good Luck! ------------------
Mike Burch
66 mustang real street
302 4-speed 289 heads
10.63 @ 129.3
http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367
http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220
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32valveGT350
Gearhead Posts: 124
From: Briz Vegas, QLD, Australia
Registered: May 2003
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posted 09-14-2004 08:35 AM
Yeah, well, I keep forgetting about insane stallies....
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 6098
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 09-14-2004 03:09 PM
And here's my totally biased opinion; if you want a motor that makes mid range power, build an aftermarket headed windsor. Parts are more readily avialable, and they are slightly cheaper. But if you want a motor that makes tons of power (even though you have to run an 'insane' convertor to make it work), build a cleveland. There is a reason several of the heads up-fastest street car classes have outlawed iron 4v cleveland heads. More opinion; I see the new aluminum aussie heads as the 'trick of the week.' No one (at least around here)has any real world experiance with them, but everyone thinks they are better simply because they are NEW. And just remember, even with aluminum heads, a cleveland block is still going to start splitting cylinders around 525-550 hp.
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32valveGT350
Gearhead Posts: 124
From: Briz Vegas, QLD, Australia
Registered: May 2003
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posted 09-14-2004 07:49 PM
Plenty of people with experience with them down here... Tis funny. there doesn't seem to be nearly as much problems with bores spolitting down here as up there... must be the Aussie cast blocks...
KV, were you running block filler at all?
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 6098
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 09-15-2004 07:53 AM
I think the Aussie cast blocks have thicker cylinders than the US cast blocks. Since the US blocks were only cast for 4 years, it only stands to reason the Aussie blocks are stronger simply because they were cast for so many more years.I started running block filler yrs ago after my second or 3rd split cylinder in the same block during the same year. I got tired of buying and having sleeves installed. That cured splitting cylinder walls, but all my motors were dragrace only. I have no idea what it would have done to water and oil temp on a street car.
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Daniel Jones
Gearhead Posts: 813
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Aug 99
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posted 09-15-2004 12:25 PM
> I think the Aussie cast blocks have thicker cylinders than the US cast
> blocks. That's not been my experience. My Aussie 2-bolt main block was not any
different than a U.S. 2 bolt main block. Kip at the Pantera Performance
Center sonic tested a bunch of standard bore Aussie 2 bolt main blocks
and they were no better than U.S. blocks. The exceeedingly rare XE 4-bolt
main blocks are thicker and beefier in other vital areas but the one I had
showed a couple of thin spots in the cylinders. There were a few Siamese
bore XE blocks made apparently, though. I've not had a chance to sonic
test any "black" blocks so I don't know if those are any different. > No one (at least around here)has any real world experiance with them, but
> everyone thinks they are better simply because they are NEW. Jon Kaase has had the CHI heads (he's using them for his Engine Masters
entry) on his flow bench. He was impressed with what they flow with only
a little port work. For similar port areas, C302B's will still outflow
them due to the raised ports but the CHI's don't seem too shabby.
It still remains to be seen what they do on the dyno Dan Jones
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 6098
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 09-15-2004 06:02 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Daniel Jones:
[B My Aussie 2-bolt main block was not any
different than a U.S. 2 bolt main block. Kip at the Pantera Performance
Center sonic tested a bunch of standard bore Aussie 2 bolt main blocks
and they were no better than U.S. blocks. [/B]
Maybe it has more to do with the 6.03" rod most of the aussie motors use. Perhaps it doesn't put as much side load on the cylinders as the american 5.78" rod does.
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jjason
Journeyman Posts: 34
From: ontario canada
Registered: Apr 2004
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posted 09-15-2004 07:56 PM
thanks very much for all your help ...jay
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Daniel Jones
Gearhead Posts: 813
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Aug 99
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posted 09-15-2004 08:03 PM
Actually only the 302C's have the longer rod. The Aussie 351C's use the same 5.78" rod. The Aussie 351C's used in Panteras after '74 were nothing more than open chamber 351C-2V's. Dan Jones
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 6098
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 09-15-2004 08:57 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Daniel Jones:
Actually only the 302C's have the longer rod. The Aussie 351C's use the same 5.78" rod.
Dang Dan, you shoot down all my 'guess-by-golly' theories. 
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32valveGT350
Gearhead Posts: 124
From: Briz Vegas, QLD, Australia
Registered: May 2003
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posted 09-15-2004 09:18 PM
However theres now a half decent selection of short comp height pistons that let us Aussies use the 302C Rods with a 351C crank...
A CHI headed clevo came second in the Engine masters challenge... by a poofteenth of a percent...
They can definitly generate some good numbers...Ben
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Mpcoluv
Gearhead Posts: 1278
From: Charlotte NC usa
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 09-16-2004 09:34 AM
Don't know if the CHI heads are any good or not, but CHI makes intakes to put them on 351W blocks....So after you split you cleveland block, you can build a clevor 
I think FPA will make headers for a Clev headed 351w....
However all the CHI stuff will cost significantly more than an AFR headed windsor.....
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Daniel Jones
Gearhead Posts: 813
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Aug 99
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posted 09-16-2004 07:58 PM
> Dang Dan, you shoot down all my 'guess-by-golly' theoriesHeh, heh, heh. I was waiting for the obvious theory that you
just must be making more power with your iron 4V heads than they
are with their Aussie aluminum heads :-) In unrelated news, my 3.85" stroke crank finally showed up.
SCAT has been on back order for at least 9 months because they
were unable to get the raw forgings. Time to order the pistons
now. I've decided that I'm going to keep a back-up long block
around in case something like this happens in the future. I
hate not having the PAntera on the road. Luckily I've got some
spare high port heads but now I wished I'd kept the XE block. Dan Jones
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 6098
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 09-16-2004 08:48 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Daniel Jones:
In unrelated news...
And in more unrelated news, my 402 inch cleveland headed windsor will be here next week. That is, unless Ivan does something ugly to I-40 between here and Arkansas.
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Daniel Jones
Gearhead Posts: 813
From: St. Louis, MO
Registered: Aug 99
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posted 09-16-2004 09:38 PM
> And in more unrelated news, my 402 inch cleveland headed windsor
> will be here next week. That is, unless Ivan does something ugly
> to I-40 between here and Arkansas.Cool. Let us know how it turns out. What intake are you running? Dan Jones
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 6098
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 09-16-2004 10:07 PM
I don't know exactly which intake is on it. It's a dry intake (cleveland style), and has been extensively ported and epoxied. Keith Craft did all the work on the heads an intake.
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Fordwiser
Gearhead Posts: 390
From: Metamora, Illinois
Registered: Dec 2000
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posted 09-18-2004 09:09 AM
Hey Kid, did you crack more cylinders while running on alcohol or gasoline, or did it make a difference?
Roger
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 6098
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 09-18-2004 09:39 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Fordwiser:
Hey Kid, did you crack more cylinders while running on alcohol or gasoline, or did it make a difference?
Roger
I cracked a bunch while on gas, but I started filling the blocks to the waterpump outlets right before I switched to alchy. I only ran one block on alchy unfilled, and it cracked a cylinder while I was warming it up in the garage (it still ran 10.40's that weekend with a cracked cylinder while at Topeka.) However I did run it most of the previous yr unfilled and never hurt anything. It was a low compression (10.4-1) 2v headed motor, so that rules out the compression being too high. We sleeved the cracked cylinder, then filled it.
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