|
Author
|
Topic: Racing At High Elevation..
|
Big D
Gearhead Posts: 5133
From: WELLS, NEVADA USA
Registered: Nov 2000
|
posted 07-28-2004 09:52 PM
   
We live at 5,600' elevation.. I was wondering what the HIGHEST ELEVATION any of you have raced,, and what setup changes you had to do to get some AIR to your engine..Most of you know I'm running a 331 Stroker.. It's balanced,,has GT49P Heads,, Comp Cam 35-328-8 XE276HR (RPM Range 2,200- 6,200) with 1.72 Roller Rockers,, Heddman Long Tubes,, MSD Dis & 6AL,, T-5,, 355 gears,, and Malissa's old 10-26 x 15 slicks (Thanks Steve).. Just added a 700 DBL PMPR & Air Gap Manifold.. I'd really like to hear your stories,, but I'd also be interested in what jetting,,and ignition setup you think might work best at 6,500 ft.. Oh Yeah,, We have Legitimate Street Races at our Car Show this Friday,, and I'll be running hard against abunch of Chebby Boys,, and I have NO Chance to Test & Tune..  ------------------
Don
6T6 Fastback
331 STROKER,, WC T-5
Royal Blue Metallic w/Ghost Flames
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/MembersPics/BigD.html [This message has been edited by Big D (edited 07-28-2004).] [This message has been edited by Big D (edited 07-29-2004).]
IP: Logged |
Big D
Gearhead Posts: 5133
From: WELLS, NEVADA USA
Registered: Nov 2000
|
posted 07-29-2004 12:15 AM
I'll give you an idea of what it's like living at 5,600 ft..Last fall I caravaned to Vegas with Mike & Joyce Epperson for a show,, and it just so happened that's when Alex was there and set the new record (YEA TEAM MONEYMAKER).. Anyway,, they were dying because of the altitude of Vegas,, they couldn't get enough air in MoneyMaker,, and my car was running so gooooood.. When we head south,, (Vegas is only 450 miles from us)it's about Vegas when you start noticing improved performance.. Then when you go to sea level,, wholly schmolly.. You have a brand new driving experience..  I'd estimate 15-20%.. At least it feels that way.. It's always sad to go home... LOL.. Can't wait to go Racing at Infineon in September.. Sounds like a Northern Cal M&M Reunion.. 
------------------
Don
6T6 Fastback
331 STROKER,, WC T-5
Royal Blue Metallic w/Ghost Flames
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/MembersPics/BigD.html
IP: Logged |
Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 18703
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
|
posted 07-29-2004 02:16 AM
Don from what little I know, you can run more timing and smaller jets. I've only raced at Fallon at 4600 feet. I've had my 65 down to sea level, but I know all about the feeling of added power at the lower elevations. 
Don then you go add the heat wave we are having doesn't help either. At least your all racing in the smae conditions.What are the dates for "Infineon in September" I'd like to race there too. Great place for a M&M get together. ------------------
SCOOP oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics The older I get
The better I was [This message has been edited by Fastymz (edited 07-29-2004).]
IP: Logged |
steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 8826
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
|
posted 07-29-2004 10:29 AM
Infineon in September,Only one weekend bracket race on September 6th. Come on down! SteveW
IP: Logged |
JCQuinn@work
Gearhead Posts: 826
From: Lakewood, CO, USA
Registered: Jun 2001
|
posted 07-29-2004 10:41 AM
There is a real good article about running at high elevation on the last page of this weeks National Dragster. It is by David Rehr of Rehr and Morrison.He says that you shouldn't change the engine for altitude changes, change the gearing. The engine is going to lose horsepower at high altitude because there is less oxygen in the air. No jet change or timing change will bring the horsepower back. The car will need steeper gears to run the same rpm in the lights so you should change the rear and transmission gears. Most sportsman racers will probably just change the rear. So Don, when you go down to lower altitudes take an extra rear pumpkin with you. Although 3.55 gears are hardly optimum for the drag strip. I should say that his advice agrees with my own experience racing at Bandimere's and at much lower tracks. I have said before, one pleasure of living up here near the moon is watching first timers return to the pits after there first pass and try to figure out what is broken on the car. The smart guys work on traction and gearing. The rest have the hood up. I think Bandimere's is officially 5800 feet but most altimeters read higher than that. All I know for sure is that the track looks down on the "Mile High City". John
IP: Logged |
Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 18703
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
|
posted 07-29-2004 11:34 AM
I agree with John 100%, with the jets and timing thats something we do just to get the cars to run better anyways. I was talking to this big time drag boat racer guy that just moved here from Orange county. He asked me how in the heck do you guys make any power the AIR SUCKS. ------------------
SCOOP oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics The older I get
The better I was [This message has been edited by Fastymz (edited 07-29-2004).]
IP: Logged |
steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 8826
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
|
posted 07-29-2004 01:35 PM
He asked me how in the heck do you guys make any power the AIR SUCKS.
******************************That's easy 3 pounds of boost or a 75 hp shot will make it run just like it did at sealevel. SteveW
IP: Logged |
Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 18703
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
|
posted 07-29-2004 03:01 PM
Steve do they have any other dates for street class or TNT days or nights. Do you know the times on the 6th ?------------------
SCOOP oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics The older I get
The better I was
IP: Logged |
steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 8826
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
|
posted 07-29-2004 03:13 PM
Ron,Gates open at 7:00 am, and we'll finish by 6:00pm at the latest. Otherwise most Wednesday nights from 3:30 pm 'til 10:00 pm.
SteveW
IP: Logged |
lawless
Gearhead Posts: 425
From: Richmond, VA
Registered: Aug 2000
|
posted 07-29-2004 03:15 PM
I too raced at Bandimere for a couple of seasons when I lived in Denver. Racing at that altitude cost me approx 8 tenths in the quarter.I agree with Mr. Quinn. I tried everything jet wise, carb wise, ignition wise, etc. The thing that helped my performance more than anything was more rear gear. Chris
IP: Logged |
Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 18703
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
|
posted 07-29-2004 03:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by steve'66:
Ron,Gates open at 7:00 am, and we'll finish by 6:00pm at the latest. Otherwise most Wednesday nights from 3:30 pm 'til 10:00 pm.
SteveW
Do you guys go on Wednesday night too ? ------------------
SCOOP oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics The older I get
The better I was
IP: Logged |
Big D
Gearhead Posts: 5133
From: WELLS, NEVADA USA
Registered: Nov 2000
|
posted 07-29-2004 04:27 PM
Thanks Guys.. It's going to be a kick.. I am still working bugs out of my Clutch Cable and the Pro B&M Shifter is very stiff.. Wants to hesitate before in goes in gear.. Even pulling down to 2nd,, it wants to stop before it goes in.. If I don't figure something out,, I'm putting the old FOMOCO shifter back in.. I never missed gears with it..------------------
Don
6T6 Fastback
331 STROKER,, WC T-5
Royal Blue Metallic w/Ghost Flames
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/MembersPics/BigD.html
IP: Logged |
TomP
Gearhead Posts: 5761
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99
|
posted 07-29-2004 09:09 PM
Wow, Wells is 5600 ft?  I guess it was downhill from there to Bonneville and that's still pretty good altitude too. I know what you mean on the B&M shifter, i can't believe i can miss 4th and hit 2nd (while upshifting) so many times.  Scoop, you know if there are any drags going on at Hot Aug Nights?
IP: Logged |
Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 18703
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
|
posted 07-29-2004 09:14 PM
No drags this year Tom
On friday the 6th they are having street drags at fernly raceway. It's a 1/4mile track without timers and just a bright white light for starts,they do have win lights.They don't have many track lights so it's hard to see your lane at night. Kinda fun and scary at the same time. I'm thinking about going out there anyways. ------------------
SCOOP oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics The older I get
The better I was
IP: Logged |
steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 8826
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
|
posted 07-29-2004 09:25 PM
Ron,Yeah, We hardly ever miss a Wednesday night. Gotta get my money's worth out of my season pass. SteveW
IP: Logged |
Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 18703
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
|
posted 07-29-2004 09:30 PM
Great Steve, I hope meet you guys there one Wednesday night around the end of August. Not sure if I'll drive my 65 or tow it yet. I would make my day to race with you guys. ------------------
SCOOP oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics The older I get
The better I was
IP: Logged |
kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 6098
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
|
posted 07-29-2004 09:53 PM
I've got a buddy in Iowa that went to the NHRA bracket finals in Bandimere a few years back. He has a big block mopar digger with a tunnelram and and 2 gas carbs on top. It runs high 7.80's to low 7.90's (1/4 mile) in the heat of an Iowa summer. When he got back I asked him how his trip was. He replied "I drove 15 hours to go slow and lose in the first round, never again." He said the digger would only run 8.50's there. And this guy isn't a 'chump'. He's a multi-time bracket finals champion, so he has a pretty good idea what he's doing. I still feel for the sake of consistancy that when going from lower elavation to higher, some jet should be pulled out of the carb. Although I have never raced at a 'true' elavation that high, I have raced in some really lousey air. Stuff like 4500 feet corrected altitude. That means that although the track may really only be 800 ft, the barometer, humidity and temperature combined make the 'air' the same 'quality' as it would be at 4500 ft. High temp, low barometer and high humidity equal high corrected altitude (also means the car wont run as fast.)
IP: Logged |
steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 8826
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
|
posted 07-29-2004 10:15 PM
quote:
Originally posted by kid vishus:
I've got a buddy in Iowa that went to the NHRA bracket finals in Bandimere a few years back. He has a big block mopar digger with a tunnelram and and 2 gas carbs on top. It runs high 7.80's to low 7.90's (1/4 mile) in the heat of an Iowa summer. When he got back I asked him how his trip was. He replied "I drove 15 hours to go slow and lose in the first round, never again." He said the digger would only run 8.50's there. And this guy isn't a 'chump'. He's a multi-time bracket finals champion, so he has a pretty good idea what he's doing. I still feel for the sake of consistancy that when going from lower elavation to higher, some jet should be pulled out of the carb. Although I have never raced at a 'true' elavation that high, I have raced in some really lousey air. Stuff like 4500 feet corrected altitude. That means that although the track may really only be 800 ft, the barometer, humidity and temperature combined make the 'air' the same 'quality' as it would be at 4500 ft. High temp, low barometer and high humidity equal high corrected altitude (also means the car wont run as fast.)
Yeah Rob, The problem is the car just doesn't react as fast so it's hard to cut the light. By changing gear ratios you can make the lower h.p. still hit the tires like it did at a lower elevation. Shoe polish will take care of the lower e.t., but not the reaction times. Rejetting to get the a/f ratio right is important, but it won't bring the power back. Good thing Don isn't bracket racing. Just doing a little grudge racing on a closed surface. Also in the heat of the high desert Don's density altitude may approach 10,000 feet. SteveW p.s. More timing and a bit leaner jet is the way to go. Timing just under the ping, and jet 3-4 sizes smaller.
IP: Logged |
SundanceKid
Gearhead Posts: 1260
From: UT
Registered: Feb 2001
|
posted 07-30-2004 12:44 AM
Add a point or two of compression.
IP: Logged |
kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 6098
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
|
posted 07-30-2004 07:00 AM
quote:
Originally posted by steve'66:
Timing just under the ping, and jet 3-4 sizes smaller.
I had one guy at the track tell me the best way to jet was to slowly lean it out till it 'popped', then go up 2.
IP: Logged |
TomP
Gearhead Posts: 5761
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99
|
posted 07-30-2004 01:56 PM
ScoopI went to Fernley last year, it was pretty primitive. I think they had spotters with stopwatches that wrote the timeslips. I guess i'll have to go then, i'll be in town Tuesday and i'll come visit you under the guise of of needing a mattress so the boss doesn't can you.
IP: Logged |
Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 18703
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
|
posted 07-30-2004 02:31 PM
Thanks Tom, it's been a long year already with the boss. The business can never make enough for him. Please do come by and say hi. I'll let you know if we are going Friday night or not. Last year they only had an 1/8th mile track. I have not been out there since they made it into a 1/4mile with more track lights. It's still a fun,almost safe and legal place to race. Work number 775-851-7200 ------------------
SCOOP oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics The older I get
The better I was
IP: Logged |
Big D
Gearhead Posts: 5133
From: WELLS, NEVADA USA
Registered: Nov 2000
|
posted 08-03-2004 11:03 PM
Did I ever find out the value of a TEST & TUNE before the Big Event.. 6T6 ran good.. Didn't put the slicks on for fear of breaking even more things.. But I still put a hole shot on everyone I raced without the aid of slicks or my linelock.. Yep,, I won the 1st hundred yard of every race,, but that next hundred is a tough one.. We had a great time.. Some quick cars came to play.. One of the fastest was an 89 Capri from Twin Falls, ID.. He put it on every CHEVY he went against.. What's great is all my chevy buddies haven't seen any part of 6T6's potential.. Just putting on the slicks and having my linelock would make a big improvement.. And,, I spent a while talking with a ford bud that just sold his Old '57 with a 428 in it and he has a set of gears that would slip right into the 9" sitting in the Versaille in my back yard..;-) I'm going to have to shut down a stretch of old US93 and have a little Test & Tune before Infineon.. Thanks for the tips.. I truly believe you're right about the gears.. Just get it to run the best you can and go from there..
------------------
Don
6T6 Fastback
331 STROKER,, WC T-5
Royal Blue Metallic w/Ghost Flames
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/MembersPics/BigD.html
IP: Logged |
Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 18703
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
|
posted 08-04-2004 03:13 AM
You didn't use the slicks ?
How did the new carb workout. So do I get a race at sears point. I got a trailer lined up for sure and I might have truck too. Now I just need the day off. My wife can't wait to go race she loves to drive and she's pretty good too. ------------------
SCOOP oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics Caution, keep kids and small pets away from the scoop.
IP: Logged |
Big D
Gearhead Posts: 5133
From: WELLS, NEVADA USA
Registered: Nov 2000
|
posted 08-05-2004 07:35 PM
It took every minute of my time just to get 6T6 back together.. I was going to have my boys get the slicks mounted and they never showed up till it was tooo late..They would have definately made a difference,, and now I know it wouldn't have broke.. Never even got my new clutch installed till night before the show.. With meetings every night,, trying to make a few $$$ in the day and work on the car... My schedule was more than full.. Hell I'mm still recooperating.. ------------------
Don
6T6 Fastback
331 STROKER,, WC T-5
Royal Blue Metallic w/Ghost Flames
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/MembersPics/BigD.html
IP: Logged |
TomP
Gearhead Posts: 5761
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99
|
posted 08-11-2004 02:57 AM
ScoopTrailer??? Did you not see Chris Molinari at Reno? His black primer 67 Mustang with a blown EFI 408" Windsor isn't a show car but he drove from San Jose to Reno and then Fernley with Hoosier Quick Times and an electric water pump. Car runs 10.0's like that! Here's a pic. http://www.sassyracing.com/PSCAfontanaChris.jpg A few fast PSCA cars were at Fernley, track scared them too, the wall at the finish line had them shutting off early if in the left lane and some of the cars got air when they dropped from the concrete launch pad down the slope about 30 feet out. It was a fun event anyways, i stayed till almost midnight and the racing showed no signs of being almost done.
IP: Logged |
Big D
Gearhead Posts: 5133
From: WELLS, NEVADA USA
Registered: Nov 2000
|
posted 08-11-2004 04:43 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Fastymz:
You didn't use the slicks ?
Didn't need them,, I was afraid 6T6 would tip over backwards..How did the new carb workout.
Not Too Bad.. It's almost there.. So do I get a race at sears point.
We need to make sure we line up during time trials together.. That's if you still have your doors on.. I got a trailer lined up for sure and I might have truck too.
Ron,, if you use a trailer,, a truck is a good idea.. Should be a kick.. Can't wait.. ------------------
Don
6T6 Fastback
331 STROKER,, WC T-5
Royal Blue Metallic w/Ghost Flames
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/MembersPics/BigD.html [This message has been edited by Big D (edited 08-11-2004).]
IP: Logged |
TomP
Gearhead Posts: 5761
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99
|
posted 08-11-2004 04:33 PM
He only needs the truck to get the trailer to the top of I80, it's downhill from there and he could ride in the car while trailer takes him there.
IP: Logged |
Big D
Gearhead Posts: 5133
From: WELLS, NEVADA USA
Registered: Nov 2000
|
posted 08-11-2004 05:21 PM
Tom,,On the top of my list of "THINGS TO DO FOR TRIP TO SANOMA"..
1. Fix trailer brakes and make sure they work before heading out.. I drove to San Diego and back without Trailer Brakes,, SCAREY.. Making it through Sac. with the brakes working will be scarey enough.. I'm not worried about Donner Pass,, but the pace in Sac is a little on the EDGIE SIDE.. ------------------
Don
6T6 Fastback
331 STROKER,, WC T-5
Royal Blue Metallic w/Ghost Flames
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/MembersPics/BigD.html
IP: Logged |
Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 18703
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
|
posted 08-12-2004 12:47 AM
quote:
Originally posted by TomP:
ScoopTrailer??? Did you not see Chris Molinari at Reno? His black primer 67 Mustang with a blown EFI 408" Windsor isn't a show car but he drove from San Jose to Reno and then Fernley with Hoosier Quick Times and an electric water pump. Car runs 10.0's like that! Here's a pic. http://www.sassyracing.com/PSCAfontanaChris.jpg A few fast PSCA cars were at Fernley, track scared them too, the wall at the finish line had them shutting off early if in the left lane and some of the cars got air when they dropped from the concrete launch pad down the slope about 30 feet out. It was a fun event anyways, i stayed till almost midnight and the racing showed no signs of being almost done.
Tom I wished that car I heard the racing went to around 2am. With lots of money changing hands after midnight. ------------------
SCOOP oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics
IP: Logged |
steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 8826
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
|
posted 08-16-2004 11:49 PM
You Nevadans got those trailers and trucks lined up? We're looking forward to your company! You can camp out at the track or my place. SteveW
IP: Logged |
Big D
Gearhead Posts: 5133
From: WELLS, NEVADA USA
Registered: Nov 2000
|
posted 08-17-2004 01:32 AM
As soon as I get the trailer brakes hooked up I'll be ready to go..Thought I found the problem,, but I still can't get 6T6 to shift properly but will work on it before I head down.. Hesitates before it goes into 2nd,, no matter how HARD you slam it.. Manual says to take cover off top of tranny and see if everything moves properly.. ------------------
Don
6T6 Fastback
331 STROKER,, WC T-5
Royal Blue Metallic w/Ghost Flames
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/MembersPics/BigD.html
IP: Logged |
steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 8826
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
|
posted 08-17-2004 10:53 PM
Don,Those manual trannys suck don't they. SteveW
IP: Logged |
TomP
Gearhead Posts: 5761
From: Delta BC Canada
Registered: Dec 99
|
posted 08-18-2004 02:32 AM
Do we have access to the little "smileys" with machine guns? 
IP: Logged |
Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 18703
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
|
posted 08-18-2004 02:38 AM
NO ! ------------------
SCOOP oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics
IP: Logged |
Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 18703
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
|
posted 08-18-2004 02:46 AM
I can't make it on the 6th. I can't get the time off work. I hope you guys have a great time. You'll have to wait to next time to blow my doors off. ------------------
SCOOP oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics [This message has been edited by Fastymz (edited 08-18-2004).]
IP: Logged |
steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 8826
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
|
posted 08-18-2004 01:14 PM
Ron,That sucks
Maybe next time SteveW
IP: Logged |
Big D
Gearhead Posts: 5133
From: WELLS, NEVADA USA
Registered: Nov 2000
|
posted 08-20-2004 02:42 AM
quote:
Originally posted by steve'66:
Don,Those manual trannys suck don't they. SteveW
I guarantee you,, if I was racing alot,, I'd have a AUTO in a HEARTBEAT.. Not being able to slam 2nd is killing me.. That's where I lost so much time at our drags..
If I had a Drive Line that would work,, I'd slip my 4 speed in for the trip.. Don't think I ever missed a shift with it..
------------------
Don
6T6 Fastback
331 STROKER,, WC T-5
Royal Blue Metallic w/Ghost Flames
http://mustangsandmore.50megs.com/MembersPics/BigD.html
[This message has been edited by Big D (edited 08-20-2004).]
IP: Logged |
Mustangsandmore Forums
