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Author
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Topic: Distributor / Advance/ Timing
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MidLifCrisis
Gearhead Posts: 466
From: Frederick County, MD
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted 05-29-2004 06:22 PM
   
The motor is a 289, 30 over, XE262H cam, Performer intake, stock Holley 600 vac sec, stock heads w/ GT-40 valves/ported exhaust, hi-po castiron manifolds, duals, Dynomax muffs and stock distributor.
I wish to keep the stock points and distr for now, but I keep getting valve ping. When the motor was first fired up, it ran 14 initial advance and it had little or no pinging.
Now I have it at 6 degrees and the idle isn't as smooth, gas milage has dropped and I think the mid range is not as strong.
I still getting pinging. I notice it mostly at low RPM and after upshifts before the RPM climbs. It is not as bad when the motor/weather is hot. I have thought of getting the Crane kit, but usually a recurve puts lighter springs in for quicker full advance. This seems to need heavier springs to lessen advance at lower RPM. Am I on the right track or what. Any help is greatly appreciated.
Thanks, Charlie
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capri man
Gearhead Posts: 6417
From: doerun, ga.
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 05-29-2004 06:26 PM
what kind of gas are you running charlie?------------------
mike r
racing is real
everything else is just a game.
81 capri-302-7.33 @92mph 1/8
1.54 60 ft. http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/billswebsite/pg06.html
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MidLifCrisis
Gearhead Posts: 466
From: Frederick County, MD
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted 05-29-2004 07:43 PM
I've been running mid-grade and moved to hi-test which is either 91 or 93 octane. I so no difference in the performance. The heads and block were decked for trueing up, but not milled to jack up the compression. So it should be close to the stock 9.5 to 1.
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Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 18703
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 05-29-2004 08:26 PM
Do the plugs look like it's running lean ?------------------
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics
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MidLifCrisis
Gearhead Posts: 466
From: Frederick County, MD
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted 05-29-2004 10:53 PM
#1 is dark gray and #8 is light gray at the electrode. The piece that it sparks to, can't think of a proper name, but the metal arm that is adjusted for gap is dark gray on both. They are Autolite BF45's. Charlie
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capri man
Gearhead Posts: 6417
From: doerun, ga.
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 05-30-2004 10:06 AM
quote:
. When the motor was first fired up, it ran 14 initial advance and it had little or no pinging.
[/B]
ummmm, silly question here but why did you want to change it. are you sure that you went down on timing and not higher?? just grasping for straws here. 
------------------
mike r
racing is real
everything else is just a game.
81 capri-302-7.33 @92mph 1/8
1.54 60 ft. http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/billswebsite/pg06.html
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MidLifCrisis
Gearhead Posts: 466
From: Frederick County, MD
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted 05-30-2004 04:31 PM
It would ping occasionally at 14 degrees at wide open throttle up hills. When I had to pull the motor out to fix a sticky wrist pin, I found it liked even less advance. I am using a timing light and a plugged vac. hose when timing. IT still doesn't like WOT unless the acceleration is gradual, not from stop to floored. Then after upshifts there is a pinging, particularly when torgue is needed. I figure it pings somewhere around 2500 to 3200 RPM, based on calculator/ no tach.[This message has been edited by MidLifCrisis (edited 05-30-2004).]
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Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 18703
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 05-30-2004 04:46 PM
I can only guess at this. But have you tried running with the Vacuum advanced plugged to see if that helps ?Hows the temp of the motor when it pings ? Also if it's running lean it will be more likely to ping. Did you try installing new points, cap, rotor ? ------------------
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics
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capri man
Gearhead Posts: 6417
From: doerun, ga.
Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 05-30-2004 04:53 PM
did you remove the dist or timing chain when you fixed the wrist pin?------------------
mike r
racing is real
everything else is just a game.
81 capri-302-7.33 @92mph 1/8
1.54 60 ft. http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/billswebsite/pg06.html
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MidLifCrisis
Gearhead Posts: 466
From: Frederick County, MD
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted 05-30-2004 10:40 PM
Scoop:
Question#2: I know lean will cause pinging, but #1 plug looked good. #8 plug was light gray but not what I would call white. I read in another post that SBF rear cylinders usually run leaner than the front. I think I am okay here, but I will pull all plugs and Digi-pic them and have a mechanic buddy make the call.
Question#3: Points, cap, etc. are all under 2000 miles old.Capri man & Scoop's question #1: I have had an overheating problem with the motor along with the wrist pin and pinging. When first rebuilt, I had upgraded to a 3-row radiator with flex fan and shroud, but still had problems. When the motor was pulled for the wrist pin, it was completely disassembled and hot tanked again, just to make sure there was no gunk left in the coolant passages. So yes, timing chain and distributor were removed. Motor was reassembled and still it overheated! So I started checking things that had already been replaced. The radiator was flow checked and replaced under warranty. I added a hi-flow water pump for good measure.(t-stat is a 180 degree) Now the motor never runs past half way on the guage. Thanks for all the suggestions.
Tommorow if it doesn't rain, I will try it with no vacuum advance and report back. Thanks for all the tips. Let me know if you guys come up with something else. Charlie
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pthornton
Gearhead Posts: 606
From: Austin, TX USA
Registered: Jun 99
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posted 05-30-2004 11:43 PM
I wonder if the harmonic balancer has spun? The timing could be really high making the engine run hot and ping.
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 05-30-2004 11:50 PM
I would dissasemble the distributor and see what weights and springs are in it for starters.
You can tailor the speed and rate of advance to your needs Charlie.
With a quick curve you can put less initial in and have it come in gradually as the engine can tolerate it.------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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MidLifCrisis
Gearhead Posts: 466
From: Frederick County, MD
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted 05-31-2004 07:44 AM
pthornton, I don't think it is the harmonic balancer. The overheating problem was resolved when the new radiator was replaced under warranty. I am good there. The balancer is new, so there should be no slippage like an old on.Alex, thanks for the tip. Would you go heavier or lighter springs?
When it was set at 10 degrees at idle I did the following test:
idle-10
1500-26
2000-28
2500-30
3000-30
3500-32
4000-33
This was with the vacuum plugged. It looks like I'm getting about 23 degrees pretty much all in at 3500. With the idle set at 6 degrees now, I'm only running 29 total. I am sure it could use more total, but the ping comes in at low to mid range. By the way, do you think those noisy bleed down lifters that CompCams uses are creating a problem with the timing? (hydraulic XE262H cam & lifters) They were adjusted by a mechanic buddy of mine, so I don't know how there were set. Any input on this? Charlie [This message has been edited by MidLifCrisis (edited 05-31-2004).] [This message has been edited by MidLifCrisis (edited 05-31-2004).]
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Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 18703
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 05-31-2004 02:06 PM
I'd try a lighter spring to bring it all in sooner. And try it at 8 @ idle. ------------------
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics
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MidLifCrisis
Gearhead Posts: 466
From: Frederick County, MD
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted 05-31-2004 08:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Fastymz:
I can only guess at this. But have you tried running with the Vacuum advanced plugged to see if that helps ?
Tried running without the vacuum, it was way worse.
Charlie
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Fastymz
Moderator Posts: 18703
From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240
Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 05-31-2004 09:16 PM
And you said running it more advanced made it worst too ?------------------
oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 06-01-2004 12:41 AM
Lifters have nothing to do with ignition timing Charlie.
Lighter springs and weights.
12 in the distributor (x2=24) and 10 at the crank at idle.------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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wildfire466
unregistered
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posted 06-01-2004 01:54 AM
You guy's are the best... I read the post and pretty much came to the same conclusion. Then I watched as you guys unravled the thread. Hat's off to all. Good info!I'd like to address his wanting to stay with the stock points and the stock dist ability to alter point gap (Dwell)at Rpm when the shaft is sloppy. You must set dwell then ajust your timing not the oppsite. Leaves me wondering why anyone would run a points set-up any more. Ya think I can talk him into a 472 or 514 and get rid of the silly small block? hahaa just J/K Les
Edit for typos... sorry!
------------------
http://www.geocities.com/wildfire1mustang/ [This message has been edited by wildfire466 (edited 06-01-2004).] [This message has been edited by wildfire466 (edited 06-01-2004).]
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TennSS
Journeyman Posts: 42
From: Memphis, TN
Registered: Apr 2004
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posted 06-01-2004 08:44 PM
MidLifCrisis: Sometimes low voltage can cause a motor to labor and run hot. This in turn, does not allow you to run much timing. So, check your voltage at your coil. If you run a ballast resistor(which you should be doing with a points distributor, you should have approximately 9 or 10 volts at the coil. If you don't, you may need to replace your resistor. Your resistor may be defective, not allowing enough voltage to the coil. Hope this helps.
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 06-01-2004 09:41 PM
Ford's do not use a ballast resistor.
Never have. 
They use a step down voltage wire to reduce voltage to 8 at the points.
------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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TennSS
Journeyman Posts: 42
From: Memphis, TN
Registered: Apr 2004
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posted 06-01-2004 10:43 PM
The ballast(step-down wire)wire could also have deteriorated, providing too much resistance and not enough voltage.
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MidLifCrisis
Gearhead Posts: 466
From: Frederick County, MD
Registered: Oct 2001
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posted 06-02-2004 07:09 AM
Thanks to everyone for all the input. It has removed a few doubts and much lack of knowledge. Alex, thanks for the info on the lifters. These new bleed-down hydraulics are like voodoo wichcraft to me. wildfire466, thanks for the info on the dwell. I will recheck that. As for a big block, I had a 390 in my first car. It was a super motor. Survived all the abuse and inexperience a teenager you could dish out. Small blocks just allow a small car to handle better and as much as I like a straight line, I love pulling away from someone in a corner.  Ron, yes more timing is worse. I am going to have to go inside and monkey with the springs and weights as indicated by Alex. I now know how to. Thanks to all. Charlie
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