Author
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Topic: Cubic inch decision
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Fstln69 Gearhead Posts: 535 From: Westmont,il Registered: Jan 2003
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posted 05-24-2004 09:40 AM
I am looking at building a new engine for the Fairlane at some point and the class (Pro Racing Cheap Street)has a 385 cube limit.What are some thoughts from you guys on a cube combo that would run good. rules: General Overview Cheap Street is the ultimate ��real world�� class in the PRO series. Cheap Street is a power adder class designed for street equipped, cars and trucks. Cheap Street entries are permitted small blocks with a maximum of 385 ci. Cheap Street permits a variety of race-proven modifications and performance enhancements on stock bodied, stock appearing vehicles. Cheap Street class is for 1950 and later American production cars and trucks. Cheap Street racing will be conducted at all drag racing events (see race schedule 1.17l) ALLOWED CYLINDER HEAD LIST: The following cylinder heads are the only accepted versions for the Cheap Street class. Small Block Ford 1. Stock Factory OEM Iron Windsor 5.0, 289, 302, & 351 Heads 2. Stock Factory OEM 2 bbl Cleveland heads 3. Ford GT-40 Cast Iron Cylinder Heads 4. Ford GT-40P Cast Iron Cylinder Heads 5. Ford GT-40Y Aluminum Cylinder Heads, PN# M 6049 Y303 6. Ford GT-40X Aluminum Cylinder Heads, PN# M 6049 X303 7. Edelbrock Performer Aluminum Cylinder Heads, PN# 60329, 60359, 60279 8. Edelbrock Performer RPM, PN# 60229, 60259, 60269 9. Brodix ST 5.0 Aluminum Cylinder Heads, PN# ST 5.0 10. Brodix ST 5.0R Aluminum Cylinder Heads, PN# ST 5.0R 11. World Products Windsor Jr, PN# 53030, 23030 12. World Products Roush 180, PN# 53030, 23030 13. Holley 5.0 Aluminum Cylinder Heads, PN# 300-573, 574, 575, 576, 1.18 VALVETRAIN 1.18a) CAMSHAFT: Any flat tappet (solid or hydraulic) design camshaft permitted. Maximum lift at valve with zero lash is .485��. 1.18b) LIFTERS: Stock type flat tappet lifters required. Mushroom tappets prohibited. 1.18c) LIFTER BORES: Lifter bores permitted to be bushed. 1.18d) VALVE LOCK: Steel valve locks required. 1.18e) RETAINERS: Steel retainers required. 1.18f) ROCKER ARMS: Aftermarket shaft type rocker systems prohibited. 1.18g) CAMSHAFT DRIVE SYSTEM: Stock type camshaft drive system required. 1.18h) REV KITS: Prohibited. 1.2 ENGINE ENGINE: Engine must be a V-8 small block automotive type engine (see accepted list). Cross breeding of an engine to a different make of body permitted. Engine swapping permitted during event. 1.3 EXHAUST EXHAUST: Adapter plates, permitted to bolt headers to cylinder head. Exhaust must be directed out of car body, away from driver and fuel tank. All exhaust gases released from engine must pass through muffler(s). 1.3a) HEADERS & COLLECTORS: All entries allowed to use tubular headers. 1.9 NITROUS OXIDE NITROUS OXIDE: Nitrous oxide entries are restricted to a single stage nitrous plate system. Nitrous oxide entries restricted to a single 10 lb. Nitrous bottle. Nitrous oxide may be supplied through any size single supply line. Nitrous jet limitations are as follows: Plate - .063�� maximum diameter. Push systems prohibited. The use of agents other than nitrous oxide as part of, or mixed in, the system are prohibited. Nitrous oxide may not be used in conjunction with any other power adder. SINGLE PLATE: The use of a single stage, bolt on, conventional design & style nitrous plate, with a maximum of 2 spray bars per plate (one nitrous spray bar, one fuel spray bar), is required. ��X�� bar or cross bar style nitrous systems prohibited. Progressive systems prohibited. See SOLENOIDS 1.22 for restrictions. 1.3b) EXHAUST TUBING/SIZE: Maximum exhaust tubing size 3��. 1.3c) TAILPIPE & EXHAUST RULES: Exhaust system required within 12��forward of the centerline of the rearend housing. 1.3d) MUFFLER REQUIREMENTS: Mufflers required, maximum inlet & outlet size 3��. A maximum of two (2) mufflers is allowed. A maximum of one (1) inlet and one (1) outle Water injection is prohibited. CHEAP STREET Base Weights: ENGINE BASE CI WEIGHT Small Block 365 3250 If actual cubic inch is more than base cubic inch listing in section 13, there will be a weight penalty of 10 pounds per cubic inch assessed to base weights. Maximum cubic inches for all combinations is 385 CI. 1950 �� 1974 body styles and all Trucks �� deduct 50 pounds from base weights. ------------------ 69 fairlane 351w [email protected] in search of Body parts for 69 fairlane 66 brand x outlaw s/s Fstln69 Pics Page http://community.webshots.com/user/purple66bu [This message has been edited by Fstln69 (edited 05-24-2004).] [This message has been edited by Fstln69 (edited 05-24-2004).]
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Fstln69 Gearhead Posts: 535 From: Westmont,il Registered: Jan 2003
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posted 05-24-2004 09:45 AM
BTW the ET cars have run have been low tens so far. Dennis ------------------ 69 fairlane 351w [email protected] in search of Body parts for 69 fairlane 66 brand x outlaw s/s Fstln69 Pics Page http://community.webshots.com/user/purple66bu
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JCQuinn@work Gearhead Posts: 826 From: Lakewood, CO, USA Registered: Jun 2001
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posted 05-24-2004 12:04 PM
According to the rules the class is designed for 365 inch engines (base weight 3250 for a 365) the added weight above a 365 is 10 lb per inch which is a penalty weight. The base weight is 8.9 lb per inch.A .060 over 351 is a 363 inch engine which seems to fit the rule very well and leaves a couple of inches for measuring error. I don't know what your budget is but I would buy a Dart Block with Cleveland main saddles and put a 3.5 forged crank in it. The stronger block is going to make more horsepower. If you can't afford the Dart, use a 76 - 85 truck block and spacers to bring the main saddles down to Cleveland size. Then fill the block, bore it .060 over and go racing. John
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Rustang Gearhead Posts: 733 From: Clarion PA Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 05-24-2004 01:17 PM
quote: Originally posted by Fstln69: BTW the ET cars have run have been low tens so far. Dennis
As of this last weekend, somebody blasted a 9.77
------------------ '68 mustang 351 clevor- 10.92@124 '67 Stang, 351W -11.18@118 '69 351C Torino-14.90@100 '78 Pickup 351W-15.56@88 '79 Pickup 460 ET=??
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Fstln69 Gearhead Posts: 535 From: Westmont,il Registered: Jan 2003
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posted 05-24-2004 04:09 PM
wow!9.77 cool! That class will get faster i think,it just seems to be the most affordable headsup class right now.Just those trucks blocks you can do that with? I didnt know that 351c were forged (learning again)and i worry about the main caps on the windsor puttin the spray to it. Thanks guys i would like to try to do this and not spend a zillion dollars building a motor.I may change cam and heads on my shortblock and start small with the spray just to get a feel. Dennis ------------------ 69 fairlane 351w [email protected] in search of Body parts for 69 fairlane 66 brand x outlaw s/s Fstln69 Pics Page http://community.webshots.com/user/purple66bu
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Fstln69 Gearhead Posts: 535 From: Westmont,il Registered: Jan 2003
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posted 05-24-2004 04:11 PM
Out of the heads that they allow which would be the best choice given all the perimeters of the class?------------------ 69 fairlane 351w [email protected] in search of Body parts for 69 fairlane 66 brand x outlaw s/s Fstln69 Pics Page http://community.webshots.com/user/purple66bu
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Rustang Gearhead Posts: 733 From: Clarion PA Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 05-24-2004 04:37 PM
quote: Originally posted by JCQuinn@work: If you can't afford the Dart, use a 76 - 85 truck block and spacers to bring the main saddles down to Cleveland size. Then fill the block, bore it .060 over and go racing.John
I agree with John except I'm pretty sure the early blocks ('69-74) are heavier. Especially in the main webs.
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JCQuinn@work Gearhead Posts: 826 From: Lakewood, CO, USA Registered: Jun 2001
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posted 05-24-2004 04:48 PM
Factory Cleveland cranks are not forged. I was referring to an aftermarket forging like Scat.According to the book "How to Make Short Track Power" by Richard Holdener the truck windsor blocks of that era are what FRPP sells as the 351 Sportsman block. They bore a used block .030 over and sell it as a performance block. They have beefier main supports than other 351 blocks. The mains in 351W blocks are much stronger than they are in a 302. I don't think you are going to have a problem with them but I would defer to one of the nitrous experts since I have never run spray. I am sure one of them will chime in here before too long. I am biased towards Edelbrock heads specifically the RPM heads. I think they are good quality and I respect their engineering. I also think any of the top line heads listed would work fine. The cam selection will have a greater effect on performance than the heads will. If you are going racing in a heads up class you will need a cam designed for your combination, not one of the catalog grinds. John
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Fstln69 Gearhead Posts: 535 From: Westmont,il Registered: Jan 2003
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posted 05-24-2004 05:24 PM
Wouldnt a good scat crank for a windsor be fine or is the smaller journals a big plus.Years ago a friend attempted spraying 351w's and kept breaking the mains but i think a girdle might help there.The cam is definetly going to be the tricky part if my thinking is correct a stock eliminator type cam would be the ticket but not sure how nitrous friendly it would be.That will be saved for a conversation with Alex since he be the man that knows stock/superstock. (though i didnt listen to him the last time) Dennis------------------ 69 fairlane 351w [email protected] in search of Body parts for 69 fairlane 66 brand x outlaw s/s Fstln69 Pics Page http://community.webshots.com/user/purple66bu
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Mpcoluv Gearhead Posts: 1278 From: Charlotte NC usa Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 05-24-2004 08:53 PM
How much does your car weigh now? If your car is heavy, run the max inches until you have to add weight. Can you port the heads? Weld and epoxy? I would run billet steel splayed caps and the best crank and rods you can afford. There is no limit to the amount of N2O you can spray is it? As long as it is a plate system.....
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Rustang Gearhead Posts: 733 From: Clarion PA Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 05-25-2004 06:33 AM
From PRO's website: "Nitrous jet limitations are as follows: Plate - .063�� maximum diameter"
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Fstln69 Gearhead Posts: 535 From: Westmont,il Registered: Jan 2003
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posted 05-25-2004 10:08 AM
quote: Originally posted by Mpcoluv: How much does your car weigh now? If your car is heavy, run the max inches until you have to add weight. Can you port the heads? Weld and epoxy? I would run billet steel splayed caps and the best crank and rods you can afford. There is no limit to the amount of N2O you can spray is it? As long as it is a plate system.....
its 3310 now with no driver but theres weight coming out so that wont be an issue. No porting of heads I agree about the the rotating assembly. There is a restriction on spray like Rustang posted. ------------------ 69 fairlane 351w [email protected] in search of Body parts for 69 fairlane 66 brand x outlaw s/s Fstln69 Pics Page http://community.webshots.com/user/purple66bu
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JCQuinn@work Gearhead Posts: 826 From: Lakewood, CO, USA Registered: Jun 2001
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posted 05-25-2004 10:24 AM
Just a comment about class racing, It is different than anything else you have experienced. Many of the people who class race are very serious and very dedicated to being the fastest. The difference between the winners and losers is often very small so close attention to details is required. When you get advice from someone like Alex who is very experienced in class racing, pay close attention and try his suggestions to the letter.Second thought, the chassis set up is probably more important than the engine. You are trying to use the horsepower as efficiently as possible because you can't just add another 100 inches or put on a blower if you aren't fast enough. The 60 foot times will become your standard of excellence. Good luck and enjoy the experience. John
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Fstln69 Gearhead Posts: 535 From: Westmont,il Registered: Jan 2003
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posted 05-25-2004 10:53 AM
quote: Originally posted by JCQuinn@work: Just a comment about class racing, It is different than anything else you have experienced. Many of the people who class race are very serious and very dedicated to being the fastest. The difference between the winners and losers is often very small so close attention to details is required. When you get advice from someone like Alex who is very experienced in class racing, pay close attention and try his suggestions to the letter.Second thought, the chassis set up is probably more important than the engine. You are trying to use the horsepower as efficiently as possible because you can't just add another 100 inches or put on a blower if you aren't fast enough. The 60 foot times will become your standard of excellence. Good luck and enjoy the experience. John
This is so true! The decision to go this route is out of change after bracket racing for more then 20 years we decided to try this type of racing.I like the heads up style racing and my other car wont fit well into any class (big inches heavy car)so the Fairlane seems to be the perfect platform to launch from.As some know i have been new to the Ford game and with the power i have seen them make i think it is a good match. If all goes correct 2005 should be interesting. Thanks guys Dennis
------------------ 69 fairlane 351w [email protected] in search of Body parts for 69 fairlane 66 brand x outlaw s/s Fstln69 Pics Page http://community.webshots.com/user/purple66bu
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67mustangdsa Journeyman Posts: 45 From: Xenia Ohio Registered: Jan 2004
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posted 05-25-2004 10:57 AM
I am not sure of all the rules. I think they use to have a claimer on the engine. If they don't, I think a dart block would be great. I don't know if I would go with the 351W deck height if I did not have too. The 302 deck height is a little too short for the needed stroke(3.5" range). The shorter the deck, the lighter the piston gets but if you go too short, you screw up your rod/stroke ratio. The cleveland hieght is a good place to start(8.5"?? can't remember I am an FE man). If no claimer, go with some shuebeck lifters. You can run a bunch of spring pressure and use a cam with a "roller like" profile. I would guess something in the 110-112 c/l range. Bullet has some good profiles you can look thru. Using a 1.6 rocker, the cam lift would be .300. You can look through some cam profiles there. I don't know much about NOS but I would guess something in the 260/270 range at .050. Pick a set of heads that flow real good at .300 and .400 lift. Don't pay any attension to the flow at .600 plus. Who cares about that? Maybe have your heads prepped by someone who does stocker stuff. I think a lighter chassis would be much better. Shoot for a race weight of 2800 with driver before you add ballast. Something that you could get at 50/50 or better on the weight would be good. If I remember correctly, you are limited to a 26x10 slick. I think I would run(dare I say) a powerglide, although a C4 would live fine. The glide would be more consistent. These suggestions are what I would do. I would look at people going fast. Bottom line, if you want to play, you have to pay. But do your homework up front and you will go fast for the least amount of money. Don't step over a dollar to pick up a dime. My .02 Shawn [This message has been edited by 67mustangdsa (edited 05-25-2004).]
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