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Author
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Topic: A C4 not strong enough? so the experts say!
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jsracingbbf
Gearhead Posts: 2751
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 04-06-2004 12:07 AM
   
Alex is this true? anybody? this is an copied post from another forum. I'll omit the names and the board name so the flames wont happen. the challenge was put to him that a fellow racer was going to do what he said could not be done. Race a c4 behind a BBF. check this out Quote.....or his reply....
I guess the difference in opinion is what do you consider a serious BBF? Most NA horsepower racers turn MAJOR RPM, above 8500RPM. Thats the down fall of the C-4. C-4's don't "behave" well above 8500 RPM. Don't believe me call Lenny at Dynamic. I am by no means an expert in transmissions. I do know several hot street racers who couldn't get a C-4 to live in their cars. These HS guys are smart!!! And the average HS motor is somewhere between 815 and 850 HP. So if you consider a serious BBF to turn under 9000 rpm and make less that 1000 HP maybe you are correct. IMO a serious BBF will kill a C-4 instantly. I know a little about your combo Les, and I don't consider factory IRON heads and a Stealth dual plane manifold with an 850 serious. THAT IS NOT A FLAME! I am defining what I consider serious. You appear to have a different idea as to what you consider serious. I think your combo will work well and you will have a great time with it. I welcome you to prove me wrong. That's how WE all learn. So don't worry about my silly ideas; just PROVE me wrong. But lets at least agree on what constitutes a SERIOUS BBF.
NOW BRING IT DON"T SING IT! ..... un quote
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JS
Run what you brung and hope you brung enough!
69 Mustang Pro ET Drag
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Dubz
Gearhead Posts: 1718
From: Manitoba Canada
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-06-2004 12:13 AM
alex runs a c4 and goes over 8500 so a c4 can be used over 8500those are some pretty BIG hp cars he's mentioning though [This message has been edited by Dubz (edited 04-06-2004).]
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 8826
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 04-06-2004 12:21 AM
I'm waiting for Alex's comments here.We know a c-4 can handle the rpms, but I've heard the c-4 as a 3-speed 'glide. And we know the glide can be built to handle way more h.p. than that. Some of the ProMod cars are now runing top end 'glides.  SteveW
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 04-06-2004 01:02 AM
You get what you pay for.
Most standard "race" C-4's will begin to sieze the direct drum and push the clutches apart on the 1-2 shift over 8000 RPM.
JPT C-4 race Ultra-Lites have modifications performed to the drum to accept a series of springs that replace the single coil.
This is no secret in the transmission world and the "real" experts know the trick. It is an expensive time intensive proposition and most racers do not want to pay for it. A GM TH-400 or garbage powerslide with an adapter is the easy and economical way out.
I have been racing with C-4's behind high RPM engines for over 25 years now. It has been trying at times, but in the last 10 years, since my association with JPT has flourished, we have jointly done more C-4 R&D then all of the other transmission companies put together. No brag, just fact!
16 IHRA and NHRA records prove that!!!!!!
As most of you know, I shift at 8500+ RPM and go through the traps over 9300 RPM.
Many of you have seen me race from Pittsburg to Las Vegas. Have any of you seen us replacing wounded transmissions? Now some will say that my feeble 500+ HP is nothing compared to the 750 that most of the competitive NMRA Hot Street cars make. 
Well, it's not about HP, it's RPM. A 400 HP engine that is capable of spinning 8000 RPM will experiance the same issues with a C-4 if not properly prepared.
As far as BBF power in front of a C-4,
Gene McBean has the qucikest and fastest NHRA/IHRA 428 CJ Superstocker in the country.
He has a JPT C-4. He and I are JPT's poster children. How much HP do you think that he makes? 9.50 ET's carrying almost 3400 lbs of 69 Mach 1.
Blair Patrick also has a C-4.
There are thousands of high HP race cars succesfully using C-4's all over the world.
It is a science that requires specialized parts and know how. Also, lubrication technology has grown leaps and bounds in the last few years. Our new RP RTF that we began testing for them in 2002 has really improved the reliability also.
In closing Jerry, will a $895 "magazine add" C-4 transmission hold up behind a high powered BBF? Probably not. Then again, I'll bet that it would not hold up behind my "feeble" little 289 either.
A well prepared C-4 takes less HP to drive and spin than any other trans, hence it will always be quicker and faster. A well prepped C-4 costs $3k. You can buy a garbageslide, or TH-400 along with an adapter for less than half of that. Easy way out, more reliable, and S L O W E R! Now if anyone who races wants an even easier way out, they should just go and get a big block chebbie and they can be just like any other cheap ass lazy braket racer. lol
Also...Steve, those Pro Mod PG's use absolutely NOTHING from GM. Everything in them is custom manufactured from the case to the output shaft.
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Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator
NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com [This message has been edited by Moneymaker (edited 04-06-2004).]
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Billy Mac
Gearhead Posts: 824
From: S.Ga
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 04-06-2004 01:47 AM
Tried and true as the C-4 is to You, Alex.....You have the hookup with JPT....and that 3 grand tranny ain't took 3 grand out of YOUR pocket.......Jerry (and myself.....and prolly a bunch of others here) is NOT a rich man......able to go out and drop that kinda dough.......( I know I couldn't).....so....we have to look at "cheaper" alternatives.....
Are we "bad" people because of it??....I think not........The common goal here is to go fast as economically as possible......You are limited by the rules of Stock and Super Stock to the C-4.....we ain't!!......
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jsracingbbf
Gearhead Posts: 2751
From: Batesville,MS. , U.S.A.
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 04-06-2004 03:08 AM
You know what? I wish I had some extra funds to switch to a JPT c4 just to prove this numb nuts wrong. From his other posts you'd swear this guy invented the wheel. or he thinks he did. It wouldnt EVEN be smart for him to post here. I've seen alot of his advice on BBF's and it is just plain WRONG info. Period.
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JS
Run what you brung and hope you brung enough!
69 Mustang Pro ET Drag
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 04-06-2004 09:40 AM
Billy and Jerry, if you guys don't over 8000 RPM, a $1500 JPT full roller C-4 will live indefinatly in your cars. I gurantee it!  ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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bud4660
Gearhead Posts: 513
From: Mesquite, Tx. M&M #2925
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted 04-06-2004 09:58 AM
Did I miss the link to JPT?? I have a BBF and am looking into options. I found a place http://www.broaderperformance.com/ that says he can build a C4 to hold up behind a BBF. I havent decided on final engine details yet. It will be a FE motor of somekind. 
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 04-06-2004 10:07 AM
[email protected] is Jim's direct e-mail.
JPT is also the sole producer of a "legal" NHRA/IHRA accepted FE C-4 bell housing.------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
IP: Logged |
67mustangdsa
Journeyman Posts: 45
From: Xenia Ohio
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted 04-06-2004 11:09 AM
bud4660,
I have one of Jims FE(got a 390) bell housings and an all aluminum C4 from him and it works perfect. Bolts right up to the engine and c4 crossmember. First time out, I went a 1.42 60' with no tuning at all so the tranny and convertor works pretty good out of the box. Give him a call. He is a big FE fan to boot!
Shawn
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bud4660
Gearhead Posts: 513
From: Mesquite, Tx. M&M #2925
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted 04-06-2004 11:36 AM
Cool...Thanks Alex and Shawn. I will give him a call and see if he can help me out. Shawn how much HP are you putting out?
Thanks
Bud------------------
1967 GT Fastback S code, C6, 4:56, tubbed, 10 point cage. 1998 GT Convert.(sold 11/29/03)
Mesh Grille, Air Silencer Trimmed
Automatic, 3:73 FRPP Gears, Mac Girdle, Moser Axles
Griggs Sub's, Welded/Plated Torque Boxes, Strut Tower Brace, Strange 10way Struts, MM HD lower control arms, Rear air bags
ProStars 15x10 w/295/50/15, 15x4 w/P195/75/15 and ARP Studs, 9/16" spacers
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67mustangdsa
Journeyman Posts: 45
From: Xenia Ohio
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted 04-06-2004 12:15 PM
It is around 450 range but I know the tranny will hold up to a lot more. The superstock guys are using them and they are in the 700 hp range. BTW, that was footbraking just off idle. I think I am going to hook up the two step and let it rip. I only have 3 passes on it but it went 11.02 @ 118 at 3205lb. There is some left but I was pretty happy for the first runs.
Shawn
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cracing
Gearhead Posts: 340
From: Saltillo Miss. USA
Registered: Jan 2002
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posted 04-06-2004 01:27 PM
Jerry. if memory serves me, Gerald Rogers, the preacher from Corinth has a JPT c4 behind his BB in an EXP. I remember him saying somewhere around 92 that he was getting a C4 from Jim Paquet ( spelling?) that was to cost $1400 then. PDQ car too! I'se jest an ole lazy ass bracket racer myself & cant afford dem dollas.Aint no sponsors & we's kinda needs to eats sumpin ever once in a while.
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bud4660
Gearhead Posts: 513
From: Mesquite, Tx. M&M #2925
Registered: Apr 2003
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posted 04-06-2004 03:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by 67mustangdsa:
It is around 450 range but I know the tranny will hold up to a lot more. The superstock guys are using them and they are in the 700 hp range. BTW, that was footbraking just off idle. I think I am going to hook up the two step and let it rip. I only have 3 passes on it but it went 11.02 @ 118 at 3205lb. There is some left but I was pretty happy for the first runs.
Shawn
Thanks Shawn. I should be safe then. The motor that came out is in the 500-550 range. I was looking at the weight and getting it in and out with the headers. I know the old 4 speed toploader was fun to drop out of the last one I had. That C6 looks really big to fit with headers in there.
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CometGT1974
Gearhead Posts: 372
From: Asheville, NC USA
Registered: Jan 2002
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posted 04-06-2004 03:52 PM
I've been running a C4 in my car with no problems yet. On the nitrous the tranny probably sees 600 - 650 horsepower at no more then 7000 rpms. I've been running it for three seasons now and had no problems, it's also seen a bit of street mileage. It's not a JPT roller but it has most of the good parts.
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Capri
Gearhead Posts: 1368
From: Lyons, ILL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 04-06-2004 11:21 PM
Here's something I bet you would never hear about. A JPT C-4 in an alcohol dragster running in the 5.80 range at over 230mph. That is a Ford powered car I believe based on a 460 Blown and injected. They spin that motor about 12000 rpm's if memory serves me correctly. I have only seen those guys hurt 1 trans and that was after breaking the crankshaft!
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73torinoqcode
Gearhead Posts: 361
From: Buffalo,NY,USA
Registered: Jun 2003
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posted 04-06-2004 11:54 PM
"Now if anyone who races wants an even easier way out, they should just go and get a big block chebbie and they can be just like any other cheap ass lazy braket racer. lol"
Spoken like a true Ford Racer!!
[This message has been edited by 73torinoqcode (edited 04-06-2004).]
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steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 8826
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 04-07-2004 10:29 PM
quote:
Originally posted by 73torinoqcode:
[B
Spoken like a true Ford Racer!![/B]
Yep, What did you expect from the moderator of M&M's Ford Racing forum? SteveW
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thumpin cat
Gearhead Posts: 458
From: Santa Barbara, California
Registered: Mar 2002
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posted 04-08-2004 03:04 AM
Alex, how often do you rebuild or "freshen-up" your transmission? and do you do it yourself or does JPT do that?
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 04-08-2004 11:50 AM
Regarding the Ultra-Lite:
If it breaks at the track (which it has not done since 2001)I will repair it in the field if possible or depending on time, just replace it with a spare.
Most of the learning curve R&D over the last 3 years was done during testing sessions, not competition. There was a lot of initial carnage and the unbreakable spare was pressed into service more that I would have liked. It is a documented 12 hundreths slower than the Ultra-Lite, and you all know that I like to go fast. Since the summer of 2002 when we finally dotted all of the "i's" and crossed all of the "t's", the Ultra-Lite has not failed.
We have JPT freshen it at the begining of the season.
The other cars get their units freshend about ever 300 runs or two years.
------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
IP: Logged |
Billy Mac
Gearhead Posts: 824
From: S.Ga
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 04-09-2004 12:19 AM
Alex....My old combo was shifted at 6800 with the highside chip at 7200.....(only hit the chip one time, when the pump came apart in my powerslide).....I am going to start off with my new motor at the same shift point....and tinker both up and down to see what the car likes.....
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 04-09-2004 12:46 AM
Billy, at that RPM the lowest level JPT competition C-4 would last you indefinately.
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Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
IP: Logged |
Billy Mac
Gearhead Posts: 824
From: S.Ga
Registered: Aug 2003
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posted 04-09-2004 01:34 AM
but there is still the issue of valve body..(for the tranz brake)...if it requires a reverse pattern shift sequence.....sorry...NOT interested....if its a forward pattern setup....It would be worth takin' a look see!!........(hmmm.....cost of a new converter.....new shifter.....custom drive shaft......new ultra-bell.....plus the required assorted shields......for NOW at least....I better stay with what I have..... [This message has been edited by Billy Mac (edited 04-09-2004).]
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