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Author
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Topic: Brakes questions
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Kyle
Gearhead Posts: 400
From: Sumner, WA
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 04-05-2004 08:02 PM
   
On my Fairlane- besides being for safety, is there any other advantages to converting the 4-wheel drum brakes to 4-wheel disc? I was thinking, since this is a footbrake car, can I get greater clamping force, thereby raising my possible launch RPM?Also, anybody know what master cylinder I would use (non-power brake)? I was thinking of getting a set of either Granada fronts or '73 Mustang fronts, and using those brackets available on eBay for the rear (you use Caddy calipers and Lincoln rotors). Any opinions? Thanks! ------------------
Kyle Laramore '63 Fairlane: Under Reconstruction '66 Mustang Coupe: 289, Offy intake, Crane Blazer hyd. camshaft, Autolite 4100 carb, Headman long tube headers, manual, 3.80 gears '70 Mach 1: 351C-2V, Weiand intake, 750 holley, Flowtech long-tube headers, MSD ignition, C6 trans, CJ converter, 9" track-loc rear, 3.50 gears, Flowmaster 2.5" mandrel exhaust w/ 3-chamber mufflers Words to build engines by: "Never Assume!" My Photo Page
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 04-05-2004 08:14 PM
Factory disc brakes will stop you better, but also will slow your ET and speed.
They are heavy and they drag.
If you want the best of both worlds then aftermarket is the way to go as in Wilwood or Strange.
If you want to use OE stuff then a early 90's Ranger master works well on the old stuff.------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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Kyle
Gearhead Posts: 400
From: Sumner, WA
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 04-05-2004 10:11 PM
So what would you suggest? Keep the drums all the way around? Front disc only? All four disc? I can't afford the aftermarket stuff. How much do the factory discs slow you down by? Are there any neat tricks I can do to make them work better?What about my idea on launch RPM? Thanks Alex.
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 04-05-2004 10:28 PM
Keep the drums.
Use all secondary shoes (long ones) for better holding power. Brake shoes are cheap.
Turn the drums.
Keep the adjustment very loose.
Get the Ranger manual disc master, also cheap.
Repack the front wheel bearings with good synthetic grease like RP and snug only.------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
IP: Logged |
CHIPSBAD67
Gearhead Posts: 396
From: LOU,KY;USA
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 04-05-2004 10:51 PM
i love drums. light, no drag, and poor boys line lock during burnout.------------------
306, 4speed, 4.11's....best 1/8 mile 7.58 at 92mph with 1.72 60ft. PUMP GAS/NO ADDERS/STREET TIRES
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Kyle
Gearhead Posts: 400
From: Sumner, WA
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 04-05-2004 11:17 PM
Is there a specific Ranger M/C I should get? Like a specific year, with a specific engine size, etc?So I can put some money elsewhere, like some Cal-Tracs?
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 04-06-2004 12:35 AM
90-92 any with manual disc brakes.------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
IP: Logged |
Kyle
Gearhead Posts: 400
From: Sumner, WA
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 04-06-2004 04:22 PM
So I looked through some parts listings today for the M/C. All the 90-92 Rangers had power brakes. I found that 86-89 Rangers had manual disc brakes. The M/C is an aluminum/plastic res. type with a 15/16" bore size. Is that the one? A 90-92 is a 1" bore alum/plastic, and pre-'86 is a cast iron piece.Also, after reading some information, should I install a 10lb residual pressure valve in the system anywhere? (I read disc brake M/Cs don't have the valves, so would I need one in the front line, since the rear port was designed for drums and should have one?) My current brake system consists of a '67 Fairlane 4-wheel manual drum 2-port M/C (1" bore), with the front port going into the line lock, and two lines coming out of it into the front brakes. The rear M/C port goes directly to the rear brakes. There is no proportioning valve- should I get an adjustable one? Would you suggest getting braided flex lines too, to keep the pressure up? Thanks for all the help!
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 04-06-2004 05:36 PM
It's the early 15/16 one. Sorry.
No residual or proportioning valve needed.
Stainless lines are always a good idea, but not neccesary.------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
IP: Logged |
Kyle
Gearhead Posts: 400
From: Sumner, WA
Registered: Dec 2001
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posted 04-06-2004 06:42 PM
Thank you very much Alex!I did some looking and it seems that I can "build" my own brake lines, using pre-made 3AN lines and various adapters, for around $65 for all three. Not bad, I thought.
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KULTULZ
Gearhead Posts: 783
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-06-2004 07:08 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:- Keep the drums.
- Use all secondary shoes (long ones) for better holding power. Brake shoes are cheap.
- Turn the drums.
- Keep the adjustment very loose.
- Get the Ranger manual disc master, also cheap.
- Repack the front wheel bearings with good synthetic grease like RP and snug only.
HUH! Shows you how far behind the times I am...  Is this just for track only cars (similiar to no sway bar) Alex? Can you still use LINE-LOC on the front? Would you recommend larger brakes (than stock) or is the extra weight a consideration? Does WILDWOOD offer discs that don't drag the pads? How do you stop an eleven second car with just manual drum?
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KULTULZ
Gearhead Posts: 783
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-06-2004 07:12 PM
quote:
Originally posted by CHIPSBAD67:i love drums. light, no drag, and poor boys line lock during burnout.
Is this describing the old practice of having the front brakes tight and the rears loose to be able to hold it at the line with just the master cylinder?
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 04-06-2004 07:32 PM
quote:
Originally posted by KULTULZ:
HUH!Shows you how far behind the times I am... Is this just for track only cars (similiar to no sway bar) Alex? Can you still use LINE-LOC on the front? Would you recommend larger brakes (than stock) or is the extra weight a consideration? Does WILDWOOD offer discs that don't drag the pads? How do you stop an eleven second car with just manual drum?
Yes Gary, these are primarily track only mods, although they woould be OK on the street with very careful driving.\ Line locks are intended for only front wheel use. The rule of thumb in the racing world is the lighter the quicker. Many FoMoCo stock eliminator racers use Gremlin or Maverick 9 inch brakes front and rear. That is on low ten second 128 MPH A-B stock 428 CJ cars also. 
Those who value their lives spend the extra money on aftermarket lightweight discs. Wilwood, Strange, Lamb, and Aerospace all offer low to no drag lightweight racing disc brakes that will safely stop most anything.
All at a price of course.
A couple of years ago I drove Charlie Fords 10 second B/SA Shelby Mustang and he has the nine inch Maverick brakes.
I'll tell you that the first time I hit the traps and went for the brake pedal, nothing happened. I mean nothing!!!!! I wound up using both feet pressing as hard as I could to stop that car. On the next pass I learned to hit the brakes immediately, and hit tghem as hard as I could. It is not as bad as it sounds as long as you are ready for it and know what to expect. 
I still have discs on all of our race cars.
I'll cut costs elsewhere. ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
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KULTULZ
Gearhead Posts: 783
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-06-2004 07:47 PM
quote:
Many FoMoCo stock eliminator racers use Gremlin or Maverick 9 inch brakes front and rear. That is on low ten second 128 MPH A-B stock 428 CJ cars also.
Tell you what...they have a larger package than I do. Do they have DEPENDS vending machines in the latrines where they race? I could see drums on a race only car, but maybe with 11" drums and larger wheel cylinders or drilling lightening holes in the drum face...something along that line. Aluminum drums would be a plus. I don't think I could spring for the racing only disc types.
Seems the sanctioning bodies would have some type of requirement for bringing a car to a safe stop.
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 04-06-2004 08:45 PM
quote:
Originally posted by KULTULZ:
Seems the sanctioning bodies would have some type of requirement for bringing a car to a safe stop.
I wish. 
Then again they do make use replace our saftey belts every two years.
Double ------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
IP: Logged |
steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 8826
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 04-06-2004 09:51 PM
quote:
Originally posted by KULTULZ:
How do you stop an eleven second car with just manual drum?
My little 110# daughter says all you have to do is push down on the manual brake peddle, even for a 10 second ride!
Don't make it harder than it is, drums work great for the first stop. Discs are better at repeat stops and resist fading. But, that doesn't apply to drag racing. SteveW
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kid vishus
Gearhead Posts: 6098
From: middle of NC
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 04-06-2004 10:22 PM
I wont build a fast drag car (anything that will run in the 10's) without disc brakes. I have been to too many tracks with short, or just lousey shut down areas to trust drum brakes to stop me. If you only run one track all the time and it has enough shut down then drum brakes may be fine.But, another thing to remember is, when I replaced my factory front drum brakes with Wilwood medium duty discs, I removed almost 60 lbs from the front of the car(just under 29 lbs per side.) And that is unsprung weight, which is some of the hardest weight to remove. And as an example of how well the Wilwood brakes on my car work, right now with the car running low 6.70's in the 1/8, I can make the jr dragster turn off without a lot of effort. I tried to do that in KK's dad's car last year, and it didn't work (running 6.90's with factory drum brakes.)
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CHIPSBAD67
Gearhead Posts: 396
From: LOU,KY;USA
Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 04-06-2004 10:24 PM
yeah, i back my brakes off a tad more on the rear. when i do my burnout i just put it in second gear, pop the clutch and get on the brake pedal. the front shoes do the holding with light pedal pressure and let the tires cook out back. if theres a way around a part i dont necessarily need, thats the way i go. ------------------
306, 4speed, 4.11's....best 1/8 mile 7.58 at 92mph with 1.72 60ft. PUMP GAS/NO ADDERS/STREET TIRES
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KULTULZ
Gearhead Posts: 783
From: Rockville, MD
Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-06-2004 10:27 PM
quote:
I removed almost 60 lbs from the front of the car(just under 29 lbs per side.) And that is unsprung weight, which is some of the hardest weight to remove.
Hmm...I have more respect for aftermarket brake systems now. I thought all of it was for fancy show cars and road race types. Learn something everyday...
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 04-06-2004 10:32 PM
Steve, you do not have to race at some of the back woods dumps or short shut down 1/8 miles strips that many of us do. Consider yourself fortunate.------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
IP: Logged |
steve'66
Gearhead Posts: 8826
From: Sonoma,CA,USA
Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 04-06-2004 11:34 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
Steve, you do not have to race at some of the back woods dumps or short shut down 1/8 miles strips that many of us do. Consider yourself fortunate.
Alex, You are absolutely correct! We get to race on one of the finest tracks in the country. We did run at one of the worst track in the country last year though. Samoa (Eureka, Ca) built in the 50's and only under a 1/4 mile of shutdown for a 1/4 mile track. Melissa was down shifting and getting pretty scared trying to get it under control before the return road came. The return road was a story in itself. The folks at Samoa were so good that we'll probably race there again this summer, we had a lot of fun there. They said that when they race at our track that they lift after the stripe and have to give it gas to drive to the return road.  SteveW
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Ryan Wilke
Gearhead Posts: 2060
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 04-08-2004 09:41 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Moneymaker:
It's the early 15/16 one..... No residual or proportioning valve needed.
Alex,
Sometime back, there was some discussion here about ending the residual (normal) drag on '69/'70 OEM disc systems - by modifying the OEM master cylinder (MC), via removing and drilling out a restrictor or such. Rather than removing & drilling or such on my OE '69 drum/disc MC, maybe it would be smarter to just switch it out for one of those lighter, 86-89 Ranger, 15/16 bore, aluminum & plastic units? By switching to the Ranger unit, could I still use the OE pushrod or would I need to fab a different pushrod? Thanks in advance for the guidance!
Ryan
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Moneymaker
Administrator Posts: 25883
From: Lyons, IL, USA
Registered: May 99
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posted 04-08-2004 11:54 AM
You will need to shorten the original or make a new one Ryan.
I knew that I would never restore MM to stock so I just shortened mine.------------------
Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked."
Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!"
Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!"
www.moneymakerracing.com
IP: Logged |
Ryan Wilke
Gearhead Posts: 2060
From: Stanton, Michigan 49707
Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 04-09-2004 09:11 AM
 -- Thanks, Capt'n Alex!!
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67mustangdsa
Journeyman Posts: 45
From: Xenia Ohio
Registered: Jan 2004
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posted 04-09-2004 10:25 AM
I put aerospace disks on the front and rear and I use a Ranger MC. I can make the first turn off pretty easy at 119 mph. The pedal is a little soft, because the MC might be a little too small but it is not a road racer so who cares. I like how the Ranger MC allows the rod to go into the housing much more than a mopar MC. You don't have to worry about the rod comming out, which is comforting. Anyway, the brakes are light and bolted on with no problems. The people at Aerospace are real easy to work with, and the brakes are pretty cheap(relatively speaking). Remember, every 1 lb of rotating weight is equal to 6lb of static weight, in other words, there is some ET to be found.
Shawn
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XR7
Gearhead Posts: 129
From: north Idaho
Registered: Mar 2003
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posted 04-10-2004 01:41 AM
So what is the trick to reduce the normal drag on factory front discs? I was turning mine today and and it was like the brakes were on, wouldn't spin free at all :O
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