quote:

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Originally posted by SteveLaRiviere:
According to a report in Mustang Monthly. They are expected to appear at the November SEMA show.

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Thats really cool, but at the same time there is also the principle of having those original legendary heads on the cleveland. They're what make a cleveland a cleveland. Maybe this will open some new doors for cleveland owners though.

Paul

Stock 351c heads better than Stock 351w heads...no one disagrees there.

Stock 351c heads about equal in performance with after market 351w heads (some of the w heads are really tricked out and better than the w....but most aren't some are just aluminum and still don't match the stock irn 351c 4v performance)....prob some amount of disgreement with this statement.

Aluminum 351c heads equal or better in performance to most 351w after market heads. Why....its not just the port sizes that make the 351c heads so special it is the Canted Valve design that most aftermarket heads for the W just don't have. I believe aftermarket 351c heads easily available from a manufacture like Edelbrock (they have been out from 2-3 lesser know companies for some time now) will tip the performance advatage to the C again. Add to that rumored availabilty of a new dart block (uncomfimred) and there stands to be a major 351c resurgence.

I have run 351w and 351c and like both motors alot. I don't think of myself as biased and still feel it is cheaper to buy what you have. However at this point based on the current performance of my 351c motor if I needed to build another motor from scratch for another car, I would seriously look at an all new Cleveland set up

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Nick
65FB 408c AOD D.T.

I'll wager the Edelbrock heads will be street replacement heads.
If they keep the price under control, the cost of the assembled
heads might not be much more than the cost to purchase a set of
iron 4V quench heads, install good valves, new springs and guides,
convert to screw-in studs, guideplates, do a valve job, etc.

> I believe aftermarket 351c heads easily available from a manufacture
> like Edelbrock (they have been out from 2-3 lesser know companies for
> some time now) will tip the performance advantage to the C again.

I'm really surprised that Edelbrock doesn't poll the user community
about these sorts of things. The Pantera club recently toured
Edelbrock's facilities and Edelbrock mentioned they were working
on aluminum Cleveland heads but didn't ask for any input. There
are lots of issues with regard to intake and exhaust manifold
compatibility that could be addressed with an intelligent initial
design. One of the problems with making a Cleveland head is that
there are so many variations: 2V, 4V, open chamber, closed chamber,
raised port, stuffed port, C302B, A3, etc. Plus, you'll need
intake manifolds and headers to match. It'd be nice to have them
for both 9.2" and 9.5" deck blocks. My guess is the heads will retain
the original port locations with perhaps a stuffed exhaust port on the
4V. Hopefully, they'll offer a stuffed intake port (similar to an A3)
with a matching intake manifold pair (single and dual plane).

> How about a Clevor with the new heads? (if they do end up producing
> them) best of both worlds? Canted, aluminum & kickarse flow?

Hopefully, Edelbrock will make the basic tooling for the intakes
for a 9.5" Windsor block. That way, with simple finish machining,
the same tooling can provide intakes that fit 9.2" Cleveland blocks,
9.2" race blocks (which have Windsor type rear block rail shape)
and 9.5" deck Windsor and race blocks. That's how the Ford Motorsport
intakes for the high port heads were made.

There are all kinds of head options now, but no decent intakes for the stock block/head combo.

With all the FE stuff available now, for a 50 year old engine design of limited output potential, it seems ludicrous to me that there isn't more good Cleveland stuff.

Ohoh, you've stepped in it now. If there's one thing that will rile up the Canadians more than saying nice things about automatics it would be dissing the FE.

John

You mean like one of these:

http://www.chiheads.com/images/Manifolds-domin-front-l.jpg

Former Engine Masters winner (and BBF guru) Jon Kaase will be running
the CHI intake and cylinder head package on this year's EMC entry.
PHR won't allow the Cleveland guys to run an aftermarket block (though
the Windsor and Chevy guys can), so Jon will be using my XE NASCAR 351C
block for his entry. I'm trying to find an XE block for another
potential entrant at the moment.

Is it me, or is the back of the valley cover curved the wrong way on the one in the picture?

quote:

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Originally posted by kid vishus:
I love clevelands, and have made them run about as hard as anyone considering the parts I used. BUT, if I were to start over, I would build a windsor. Parts availability is waaaay better, and the power potential is just as great if not better.

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63 Falcon 377 Cleveland stroker Flying Toilet alchohol injection. 6.19 @ 110 MPH 1/8 mile
2002 Ranger FX4 daily driver
2000 F350 PSD Crew cab dually - Like commuting in a B52!!
98 US Cargo Phantom II 28'

Kaase has the heads in hand now and thinks they look quite
good. I forgot to ask if he has received the intake yet.

quote:

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Originally posted by JCQuinn@work:
"With all the FE stuff available now, for a 50 year old engine design of limited output potential, it seems ludicrous to me that there isn't more good Cleveland stuff."

Ohoh, you've stepped in it now. If there's one thing that will rile up the Canadians more than saying nice things about automatics it would be dissing the FE.
Well, it got my attention, and I`m sure TomP will give his opinion too! The FE isn`t quite 50 years old yet, but it is still one of Fords "better ideas" in my opinion. Besides numerous Nascar victorys in the "good old days", winning LeMans, and powering the AC Cobras, it is STILL the most prevelent Ford engine in NHRA Stock drag racing. I think that there are several reasons for the recent increase in new FE parts, compared to the 351C. First off, the 351C was only built for 4 years,the FE was built from 1958-71 in cars, trucks retained FE`s until the end of 76, so there were many more FE`s produced than Clevelands. Also, many of the most revered Fords were FE powered, (427 Galaxies& Fairlanes, 428 CJ Mustangs, even the 390 GT`s), so they have great "nostalgia" as well as collector value. Another factor in FE`s resurgence is the Cobra kit car market, anything besides a FE just doesn`t look right. Don`t get me wrong, I like Clevelands too, in fact I raced a 351C 4V 70 Mustang back in the mid-late 70`s, but the FE is still far from dead!

John

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Still you Cleveland guys should be thankful Edelbrock didn't make you wait till after they did 409 or Y block heads!

quote:

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Originally posted by TomP:
now here's where we need a smiley of Yosemite Sam with steam coming out his ears and guns ablazing.

The FE is probably still Ford's most successful engine in history. I thought there were aftermarket 351C heads from Australia already?

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I dunno, the 5.0 was pretty durn succesfull. No it isn't quite as legendary as the FE, but it sure did blow open the door for Ford small block performance.

Paul

The main reason clevelands aren't as prevelant in stock and super stock is due to NHRA factoring. And I think in the cleveland's hay-day, they won more than their share of NASCAR races, and they dominated pro stock like no other true factory motor ever has, or ever will again. If that is what you want to judge success on, then the cleveland wins hands down. I could be wrong though, but I doubt it.

It is a legendary power plant, no doubt. I can remember when it was the dominant NASCAR motor and some of the dirivitives are the most revered of all time. The cammer in particular. Back then, stock car racing was really stock car racing. There was nothin better than the last 5 laps of a race with Richard Petty and David Pierson dukin it out. Todays form of NASCAR doesn't come close, sorry! There is nothin stock about stock car racing today.

When I campare the FE to the Cleveland, its still a matter of bang for the buck. There is simply no better factory head on any brand of V8.

Like KV says, we had motors that were mostly factory parts and they ran like gang busters. That wouldn't happen with an FE.

The FE is very heavy if factory form. I had one once, so I'm painfully aware that H.P. per pound is more important in a drag car than H.P per cu. inch. I had a 390 in a 64 Galaxy that routinely got waxed by 327 powered Impalas.

I have been a Ford guy for a long time and I like all the motors, I just happen to think the Cleveland has the most potential for high performance with the 460 a close second.

When I campare the FE to the Cleveland, its still a matter of bang for the buck. There is simply no better factory head on any brand of V8.

Like KV says, we had motors that were mostly factory parts and they ran like gang busters. That wouldn't happen with an FE.

Sorry, but I gotta disagree about the cost & need for aftermarket parts to make a FE run decent. The 428 in my 3100 lb Fairmont is a .030" stock Tbird block, crank & rods with TRW pistons, stock cast iron 428CJ heads, factory Ford 427 alum dual plane intake, with a 780 Holley vac. sec.carb, Ford truck Duraspark dist, and a solid cam using stock Ford lifters & until recently, rocker arms. It runs low 10`s at over 130 mph on gasoline, and other than 2 "ring & bearing" freshen ups, has not been touched since I first built it in 1994, so I`d have to say it`s pretty reliable too! The heads haven`t even had a valve job since the late 80`s.The few local racers that still run Clevelands that run within a second of me have each gone through at least 2 engines in 5 years, with split cylinders or broken stock rods being the usual problems. I think one problem with many FE guys is the need to try to "out trick" themselves. Many go for whizzy looks, or think they need to rev a FE to the moon. I shift mine at 6200 rpm, and I couldn`t be happier. Also, the FE with an aluminum intake is less than 100 lbs heavier than a Cleveland. If I wanted to go a bunch faster, than I may consider a much heavier & larger 460 type engine, but since my car is only NHRA legal to 10.00ET`s without quite a bit of re working, I don`t see that happening any time soon.

quote:

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Originally posted by TomP:
now here's where we need a smiley of Yosemite Sam with steam coming out his ears and guns ablazing.

The FE is probably still Ford's most successful engine in history. I thought there were aftermarket 351C heads from Australia already?

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The 289 didn't do so bad either.
Even more diverse than the FE actually.

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Alex Denysenko
Co-Administrator and Moderator

NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver
MCA member# 53321
NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04
First SS/MA in the TENS!
IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion
Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28

The Barry of BarrysGrrl

One word, flathead.

Before 1950 or so, a hot rod had a flathead or it wasn't a hot rod.

quote:

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Originally posted by Rory McNeil:
The few local racers that still run Clevelands that run within a second of me have each gone through at least 2 engines in 5 years, with split cylinders or broken stock rods being the usual problems. [/B]

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A half fill will take care of about 99% of the split cylinders. And the one percent that is left over is going to happen regardless of fill or not. As for broken rods, well, I have NEVER had a rod fail simply because it failed. Stock cleveland rods are strong. It was always preceeded by a spun bearing, and once I learned what I was doing wrong there, it never happened again (spun bearings or broken rods.) Not even when I broke the driveshaft and the motor bounced off the 8k chip for what seemed like an eternity did I hurt a rod. The problem with most guys that are currently running clevelands is they don't really know what they are doing, and when they do finally ask questions or advice, they listen to the wrong advice (hence the reason I no longer post on the cleveland forum that is found elsewhere online, there is too much mis-information given there that is past off as fact.)

And like I said earlier, all the FE's I saw run in Iowa, or at all the bracket finals I have attended, were always slower than my car. And most of them were significantly slower. Even the 500 inch all aluminum race FE. It was lucky if it ran 6.50's 1/8, and it was on alcohol.

But then again, I have never seen Rory's car run.

Won in so many different types of racing. LeMans, Sports cars, Nascar, Pikes Peak, drag racing in fuel and gas classes, boats and who-knows-what-else. It beat much more exotic engines from other companies in heads up competition.

The big block wasn't legal past the early 70's in Nascar and obviously Clevelands were a bit scarce before that so a comparison of total wins isn't fair for either. From 1958 into the early 70's there were a whole bunch of wins for FE's.

quote:

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Originally posted by MAV:
Kid V If you dont mind me asking (for cleveland loving freind of mine) What were you doing wrong ? That was causeing your engine troubles?

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