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Topic: insane machineing costs :(
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Dubz Gearhead Posts: 1201 From: Manitoba Canada Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-01-2004 03:20 PM
So i go to the local custom engine/cylinder head shop and ask for a price for machining my heads for screw in studs$250 PER HEAD!!!!! and then i wanted them milled as well turns out i can get a set of roush 200 for the cost of the machine work so either i'm trying to tap the holes myself or not bothering with this head unless i can come up with some other way to run a cam on these ------------------ 1974 Gran Torino(351W/c6) My Page shooting for 14's this year
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Ryan Wilke Gearhead Posts: 1753 From: Stanton, Michigan 49707 Registered: Oct 2000
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posted 04-01-2004 03:52 PM
I'd call around to a few other shops within a 120 mile radius.... There has GOT to be one shop around there that wants the work and won't rape you in the process...... Ryan
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BLstangin Gearhead Posts: 508 From: South Central MN Registered: Apr 2002
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posted 04-01-2004 04:00 PM
WOW! My machinist did mine for $75 for both heads! ------------------ 1970 coupe restored with the help of my dad. 306 with 600 holley, Weiand Stealth intake, headers, Comp cam, harland sharp roller rockers, kb pistons, 10.3:1 compression ratio, pertonix ignitor 2 with matched coil, lakewood bellhousing, 4-speed toploader, and 2.79 open 8" rear. Soon to be 9" 3.50 trac-lok 1986 f-150, 5.0, factory towing package with original c-6 trans
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Fastymz Moderator Posts: 14800 From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240 Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 04-01-2004 04:32 PM
Sounds like Reno prices Call around someone will need the work and offer a good price. ------------------ SCOOP oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics
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Dubz Gearhead Posts: 1201 From: Manitoba Canada Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-01-2004 05:18 PM
someone suggested i might be able to try doing this myself, and for a savings of $500, i could buy another set of 351 heads if i mess up. Anyone here attempted such a thing?
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Fastymz Moderator Posts: 14800 From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240 Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 04-01-2004 05:20 PM
You must have a drill press and be able to get then in the right angle.Dubz I'd call around and if not. Leave them alone until you can get some better heads. Just drive the car and have fun for now. ------------------ SCOOP oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics
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Dubz Gearhead Posts: 1201 From: Manitoba Canada Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-01-2004 09:27 PM
ok, i asked around to some people and was told to look into comp's rocker stud puller and tap guide part number 5306 catalogue link on page 384"This fixture provides a convenient method to remove pressed in rocker studs. Just slide the tool over two side-by-side studs and crank down on the retaining nut to force out the stud. Then use the tool, with the supplied arbor, to ensure proper alignment when tapping the stud boss for screw in studs" on summit, it's listed at $35 would this work good enough for me to do it myself? or is it a tool specific to sbc's or something that it doesn't list [This message has been edited by Dubz (edited 04-01-2004).]
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67nightmare Journeyman Posts: 41 From: rose hill, ks, usa Registered: Mar 2004
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posted 04-01-2004 10:11 PM
Dubz, I know these guys are gonna tear me apart for this but here goes anyway. I was considering having the same operation done on my heads. I asked my boss whos been a mechanic and owner of a shop for almost 35 years if he'd ever seen a small block ford head lose a push in stud with a high-lift cam. He said he had never seen it. He says the problem is much more common with small block chevy heads. I personally don't that much about it and I know hes done his fair share of ford performance rebuilds and he said hes never put screw in studs in any heads that didnt already have them. I personally don't think its worth it, like I said I know I'll get torn apart and ridiculed for this but its just my 2 cents.
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steve'66 Gearhead Posts: 7414 From: Sonoma,CA,USA Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 04-01-2004 10:51 PM
quote: Originally posted by 67nightmare: Dubz, I know these guys are gonna tear me apart for this but here goes anyway. I personally don't think its worth it, like I said I know I'll get torn apart and ridiculed for this but its just my 2 cents.
67NM, We really aren't like that. Dubz heads have 3/8" rocker shafts with 5/16 threded ends for the nuts. There isn't much adjustment to them, I used thick washers to add a little adjustabilty with hydraulic lifters, but that won't cut it for solids. Dubz needs to bite the bullet and get some aftermarket heads. period . . Or spend more for iron heads. Unless you're running a class that requires factory Iron heads, you'll do better/cheaper with the aftermarket. Suck it up and save the money! SteveW
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67nightmare Journeyman Posts: 41 From: rose hill, ks, usa Registered: Mar 2004
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posted 04-01-2004 10:57 PM
Lol Steve, I know you guys aren't like that but with this topic, to me anyway, it seems a person is either dead set on screw-in studs or they aren't. You guys understand what I mean. Anyway you are probably right about the aftermarket heads thats what I would do if I could afford it, but I need wheels and an a motor, so the super fancy heads will have to wait.
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TomP Gearhead Posts: 5100 From: Delta BC Canada Registered: Dec 99
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posted 04-01-2004 11:05 PM
That's ridiculous prices for a simple operation. The tool to do it yourself may be OK, not sure how you'd get the end ones with it.You can actually use screw in studs without having to mill the bosses. You only really need to do that for the extra thickness of guideplates. If you keep the rail rockers you don't use guideplates. Pull the studs out and tap the holes straight. It's best done on milling machine or drill press. The studs can pull out on their own, i've had this happen on 351W heads, after running the engine over 6000rpm a rocker started clattering, one stud was quite a bit higher than the others. As i recall it was aboyt $75 Canadian to have a shop mill, drill and tap them.
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Dubz Gearhead Posts: 1201 From: Manitoba Canada Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-01-2004 11:50 PM
my heads don't have rail rockers i'd be using comp magnum rockers and the cam will be a 270S so i figure the screw in studs are needed
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CHIPSBAD67 Gearhead Posts: 329 From: LOU,KY;USA Registered: Sep 2003
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posted 04-02-2004 11:36 PM
a friend of mine with a 351w in a 68 had a press in stud pop out with a weenie comp 280 magnum cam and stock valve springs. of course i gave him a new extra set of springs that would work well for his cam (because im a good guy to know) but he still hasnt fixed the head yet. ------------------ 306, 4speed, 4.11's....best 1/8 mile 7.58 at 92mph with 1.72 60ft. PUMP GAS/NO ADDERS/STREET TIRES
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Dubz Gearhead Posts: 1201 From: Manitoba Canada Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-04-2004 05:31 AM
Alex, if you read this, do you sell the tap guide? and what would you suggest i do?
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JCQuinn@work Gearhead Posts: 583 From: Lakewood, CO, USA Registered: Jun 2001
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posted 04-05-2004 11:30 AM
You can pull the studs by stacking a lot of washers around the stud and screwing down the nut. As the stud begins to move, add washers to the stack. repeat tightening and adding washers until the stud comes out.I made a fixture out of angle iron and flat straps to allow the head to sit with the stud straight up. with this fixture you can use a drill press to start the tap straight. I do this without using the motor on the drill press. Just use the drill press as an alignment tool to hold the tap straight and cut the threads with a manual tap handle. Just be sure the fixture will hold the head firmly when you are working on the end studs. You can also use this setup to cut down the stud bosses. There is a special cutter that aligns on the stud hole and cuts a nice flat mounting surface. I think Manley sells the stud cutter at least they used to. I am sure other sources also exist like Goodson. http://www.goodson.com/ John
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Dubz Gearhead Posts: 1201 From: Manitoba Canada Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-05-2004 01:10 PM
would cutting or milling the studs flat be necissary??TomP suggested it wasn't if you didn't use guideplates but would i need to run guideplates [This message has been edited by Dubz (edited 04-05-2004).]
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capri man Gearhead Posts: 4529 From: doerun, ga. Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 04-05-2004 01:58 PM
may be a stupid question dubz, but why do you have to have screw in studs?? what is there now?------------------ mike r racing is real everything else is just a game. 81 capri-7.33 @92mph 1/8 1.54 60 ft. http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/billswebsite/pg06.html
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n2oMike Gearhead Posts: 1863 From: Spencer, WV Registered: Jan 2001
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posted 04-05-2004 02:36 PM
Often, the 'nut' part of the screw-in stud gets in the way of the rocker arm. (especially with large bodied aluminum roller rockers) This is another reason to mill the stud bosses.You can purchase a cutter that tightens in a drill chuck to cut them down with. (I've got one) It uses a pilot that fits down into the stud hole to keep it centered. I suggest shopping around for a place to do it for less money. I've never paid over $100 for the job. I did one set, and have paid to have it done after that. Better yet, save your pennies for a new set of aftermarket heads. Good Luck! ------------------ Mike Burch 66 mustang real street 302 4-speed 289 heads 10.63 @ 129.3 http://www.geocities.com/carbedstangs/cmml_mburch.html http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/healey/367 http://www.mustangworks.com/cgi-bin/moi-display.cgi?220
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Dubz Gearhead Posts: 1201 From: Manitoba Canada Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-05-2004 02:42 PM
quote: Originally posted by capri man: may be a stupid question dubz, but why do you have to have screw in studs?? what is there now?
positive stop press in studs, i could use shims or something for adjustability with a small hyd, but i'd like to run a 270S. And even for the 270H (which i wouldn't consider a small hyd) i've been told the press in will pull out. If running the H would make this work with the press ins that i have, i'd drop the idea of a solid with these heads. And get a bigger solid later when i get aftermarket heads. and for the "just go to aftermaket" people, i need irons to run in my climate in spring and fall. I'd gladly take the weight off the front of my whale if i could run alums, but i don't think i can. And the roush heads have big chambers which will make the compression even that much lower. And the $$ for a GOOD rebuild by anyone close around here you can guess how much they want for that
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Fastymz Moderator Posts: 14800 From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240 Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 04-05-2004 03:09 PM
Dubz why not just run a smaller cam then the 270h and keep the stock heads as they are. Just use a good intake,carb, exhaust, GEARS and maybe small shot of N2O. Save your money until you can rebuild the motor. You'll still have a blast driving and racing your car.------------------ SCOOP oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics
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Dubz Gearhead Posts: 1201 From: Manitoba Canada Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-05-2004 03:16 PM
quote: Originally posted by Fastymz: Dubz why not just run a smaller cam then the 270h and keep the stock heads as they are. Just use a good intake,carb, exhaust, GEARS and maybe small shot of N2O. Save your money until you can rebuild the motor. You'll still have a blast driving and racing your car.
fine now what size cam can i get away with??
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Fastymz Moderator Posts: 14800 From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240 Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 04-05-2004 03:28 PM
I know for sure the Summit cam will work just fine. ------------------ SCOOP oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics
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Dubz Gearhead Posts: 1201 From: Manitoba Canada Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-05-2004 05:31 PM
quote: Originally posted by Fastymz: I know for sure the Summit cam will work just fine.
what did you do to your heads to run em?
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Fastymz Moderator Posts: 14800 From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240 Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 04-05-2004 05:41 PM
Nothing at all Dubz I even ran my old push rods and rockers.------------------ SCOOP oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics
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Dubz Gearhead Posts: 1201 From: Manitoba Canada Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-05-2004 05:47 PM
you didn't even use the kit from comp cams to make them adjustable or what did you do?
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Fastymz Moderator Posts: 14800 From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240 Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 04-05-2004 06:25 PM
Dubz it was an H cam, I used the Summit cam and lifter I paid about $110 for them, and that was it.------------------ SCOOP oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics
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capri man Gearhead Posts: 4529 From: doerun, ga. Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 04-05-2004 07:26 PM
dubz, you are trying to make it to complicated!! just relax and have fun, you are not trying to break a nhra/ihra record here. ------------------ mike r racing is real everything else is just a game. 81 capri-7.33 @92mph 1/8 1.54 60 ft. http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/billswebsite/pg06.html
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Fastymz Moderator Posts: 14800 From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240 Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 04-05-2004 07:32 PM
quote: Originally posted by capri man: dubz, you are trying to make it to complicated!! just relax and have fun, you are not trying to break a nhra/ihra record here.
AMEN Mike I was told that too, it was the best advice I was given yet.
------------------ SCOOP oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics
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Dubz Gearhead Posts: 1201 From: Manitoba Canada Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-05-2004 08:30 PM
quote: Originally posted by capri man: dubz, you are trying to make it to complicated!! just relax and have fun, you are not trying to break a nhra/ihra record here.
I was almost positive i needed shims of some sort to adjust the rockers...but that's great news if i don't If i don't ask these stupid questions, i'm gonna end up in a whole heap of trouble ------------------ 1974 Gran Torino(351W/c6) My Page shooting for 14's this year
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Moneymaker Administrator Posts: 22315 From: Lyons, IL, USA Registered: May 99
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posted 04-05-2004 08:37 PM
Dubz, just a little FYI. In all of the years and on all of the SBF's I have worked on I have NEVER pulled out a stock press in rocker arm stud! A couple of hundred chebbies yes, but a SBF, NEVER! Now, I have also never used a cam larger than around .500 or so lift on those type of heads or applications, but still, many of the engines ran in excess of 6000 RPM with no issues.------------------ Alex Denysenko Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver MCA member# 53321 NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04 First SS/MA in the TENS! IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked." Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!" Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!" www.moneymakerracing.com
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Dubz Gearhead Posts: 1201 From: Manitoba Canada Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-05-2004 08:55 PM
so alex i'd be ok with a 270H then?would i need the 4610-16 deal from comp or something similar to run it (hate when they say smaller cams cause is that smaller to the average joe, to the weekend warrior, or the hardcore racer) will i need that adjustment kit if i run a thinner head gasket? probably eh? [This message has been edited by Dubz (edited 04-05-2004).]
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capri man Gearhead Posts: 4529 From: doerun, ga. Registered: Nov 2000
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posted 04-05-2004 08:57 PM
you are only gonna bout .500 lift, right??------------------ mike r racing is real everything else is just a game. 81 capri-7.33 @92mph 1/8 1.54 60 ft. http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/billswebsite/pg06.html
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Dubz Gearhead Posts: 1201 From: Manitoba Canada Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-05-2004 09:01 PM
quote: Originally posted by capri man: you are only gonna bout .500 lift, right??
should be, and with the weak stock rockers should be under for sure
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Fastymz Moderator Posts: 14800 From: Reno Nv USA MEM#1240 Registered: Apr 2001
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posted 04-05-2004 09:20 PM
quote: Originally posted by Moneymaker: Dubz, just a little FYI. In all of the years and on all of the SBF's I have worked on I have [b] NEVER pulled out a stock press in rocker arm stud! A couple of hundred chebbies yes, but a SBF, NEVER! Now, I have also never used a cam larger than around .500 or so lift on those type of heads or applications, but still, many of the engines ran in excess of 6000 RPM with no issues.[/B]
It says it all right here Dubz
------------------ SCOOP oddly obsessed with big scoops on little Mustangs 65 coupe,351w,C4,Big Boss 429 hood scoop,8" 3.40 TracLoc. My Pics
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Mr. FoMoGO Journeyman Posts: 43 From: Ga. USA Registered: Dec 2003
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posted 04-05-2004 10:41 PM
I hate to disagree with every body , but I have pulled studs out on my street cars several times, & so has some of my customers. maybe I drive harder than every body else. lol lol..... simple cure go buy 1/8 spring pins 1" inch long, drill a test hole in somthing to find the right size drill bit should be 1/8 bit but could be the next size smaller, long time from the last time I did any, The pin must fit tight in the hole needs to have some resistance. then drill through the center of the stud boss & stud about 1/3 the way down drive pin in, and there you are ready for some 6000 rpm runs this is good up to about 550 lift. Its worked on my street 289 for years. you will have to move the drill around to drill all the studs. It takes one bit per head if you don't push to hard & break the bit , Like I have. the pin may stick through cut it off with a small grinder , if it interfers with anything
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Dubz Gearhead Posts: 1201 From: Manitoba Canada Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-05-2004 10:47 PM
so i drill a 1/8" hole through the stud boss, the stud, and the other side of the boss and then slide a pin through to lock it right? seems simple enoughwhat is used for pins? who makes them? this seems like you'd be weakening the stud as you are drilling a hole through it [This message has been edited by Dubz (edited 04-05-2004).]
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steve'66 Gearhead Posts: 7414 From: Sonoma,CA,USA Registered: Mar 2000
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posted 04-05-2004 10:56 PM
Pinning the studs is an option as long as Dubz stays with a juice cam, his studs won't work with a solid grind. Dubz, this is good for a 270H or even a little bigger H cam. SteveW
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Dubz Gearhead Posts: 1201 From: Manitoba Canada Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-05-2004 11:09 PM
well then i guess that'll be fine, i'll get comps k kit with the 270H and run it till i can get some good aftermarket heads or a set of worked over stockers with screw in studs ect from someone that's upgrading.------------------ 1974 Gran Torino(351W/c6) My Page shooting for 14's this year
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Mr. FoMoGO Journeyman Posts: 43 From: Ga. USA Registered: Dec 2003
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posted 04-05-2004 11:13 PM
Parts store should have a selection or a hardware store. trans. has spring pin in the cluster shaft, some gears are held in place on the shaft with spring pin etc. a 1\8 hole will not weaken the boss or stud . I looked at my drill index 1/8 is to large go with a 5\64 or 3\32 . you drill all the way through the boss incase the rocker wares the stud you can drive the pin out & replace the stud.------------------ NHRA & IHRA SS/K SS/L SS/M record holder from time to time
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whiteknight289 Journeyman Posts: 82 From: Wheaton, IL, USA Registered: Mar 2004
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posted 04-07-2004 10:30 PM
I've worked on more stock motors than modified ones, and in the last 15 years I've had to replace factory press-in studs on 3 different 289's in the past 15 years of working on maybe 100 cars a year. I'm sure that it was much more due to age and mileage on the motors because as I pulled out the loose studs I could see the ends were corroded. Performed these operations with the heads on the car, used the "stack up a bunch of washers" technique and then a BFH to drive in oversize studs until level with the remaining studs. This is just a repair to a stock motor, not a modification to screw-in studs. You can install what my machinist calls "cheater" studs, just thread the old holes without milling the boss.------------------ MCA Certified Judge, 1965-1966 66 GT coupe A code, Silver Frost 65 coupe modified - the White Knight 66 convert being restored 95 GT convertible/Cobra clone - black with white leather
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Dubz Gearhead Posts: 1201 From: Manitoba Canada Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-08-2004 08:48 PM
do you have to remove the heads to pin the stud bosses? or can you do it in the car[This message has been edited by Dubz (edited 04-08-2004).]
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Moneymaker Administrator Posts: 22315 From: Lyons, IL, USA Registered: May 99
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posted 04-09-2004 12:13 AM
It would be very difficult if not impossible to pin the studs with the heads on the car Dubz.------------------ Alex Denysenko Co-Administrator and Moderator NHRA/IHRA/SRA member and licensed Superstock driver MCA member# 53321 NHRA and IHRA SS/LA & SS/MA National Record Holder '00,'01,'02,'03,& '04 First SS/MA in the TENS! IHRA division 5 Superstock Champion Fleet of FoMoCo products including 88 ASC McLaren Mustang #28 The Barry of BarrysGrrl Quote #1: "I never met a magazine mechanic I liked." Quote #2: "Make sure brain is in gear before engaging mouth!" Quote #3: "If you can't run with the big dogs, stay on the porch!" www.moneymakerracing.com
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Dubz Gearhead Posts: 1201 From: Manitoba Canada Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-09-2004 12:15 AM
quote: Originally posted by Moneymaker: It would be very difficult if not impossible to pin the studs with the heads on the car Dubz.
allrighty...10-4 good buddy
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SteveLaRiviere Administrator Posts: 38067 From: Saco, Maine Registered: May 99
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posted 04-09-2004 08:07 AM
I broke the boss on a sbc while pinning it, just by driving the pin in. I think I had drilled the hole too undersized trying to get a tight interference fit, so proceed with caution.Dubz, they are also referred to as 'roll pins.' ------------------ '70 Mustang Mach 1 351C 4V/FMX/3.25 Open '70 Mustang Convertible 250 I6/3 speed/2.79 Open '72 Mustang Sprint Hardtop 351C 4V/FMX/4.30 Trac Loc '94 F-150 XL 5.8L/E4OD/3.55 Limited Slip
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Dubz Gearhead Posts: 1201 From: Manitoba Canada Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-10-2004 08:40 PM
I found out this weekend that there is a shop 2.5 hours away from here that does some head work as well, so i'll try there during the week for a quote to get the screw in studs, if they arn't reasonable either, i'll have to pin them myself.
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jeffstar Journeyman Posts: 51 From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 04-10-2004 11:39 PM
DubzI am curious, do the initials of your expensive engine builder happen to be K.M.? If they are, I can tell you he does top notch work! He did a set of 351W heads for me, and when I brought them in to the best shop that I know of in T.O. they told me they where a work of art. Some times you get what you pay for. Goodluck
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Dubz Gearhead Posts: 1201 From: Manitoba Canada Registered: Oct 2002
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posted 04-10-2004 11:53 PM
well i don't imagine there would be a big difference in the ability of a machine shop to mill and tap the bosses...doesn't seem to be anything that would require skill other than the machine, and time to set it up ect.i was wondering about taking it to a machine shop that doesn't do any engine work, but does custom machineary stuff, don't think i'd be able to get a quote from them since it would be a first time deal though
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jeffstar Journeyman Posts: 51 From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada Registered: Feb 2003
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posted 04-13-2004 12:32 AM
I agree it should be a very simple job for any competent machine shop. One shop that did that exact job for me returned the heads with the guide plates loose and told me that I should line them up (the guide plate holes are elongated) before torquing down the studs. As I was torquing down the studs I noticed one of them did not feel right as I reached the final torque. They had not drilled / tapped the hole deep enough. BTW I had a stud come loose on a 289 head with a very mild 0.460 lift cam. I was using fairly mild valve springs from a 390 if my memory serves me.
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